Ryanair Strike, Industrial relations discussion Mod note in post 1

rivegauche wrote: »

I'm still dropping out as the pro-Industrial Action mob are absolutely raving here and the Moderators are not bothering to reign them in. I've been exposed to absolutely disgraceful abuse here but it comes as no surprise.

If you are not happy with the moderation, then raise a formal complaint with the category moderators or administrators as outlined in the charter.


If you complain about moderation in thread again, you will be sanctioned in accordance with the terms of the forum charter.

Now you know why I made the deliberate decision a number of days ago to split the industrial relations aspect of this dispute into a separate thread from the discussions about the effects of this dispute on intending passengers.


If you think the abuse you have received is disgraceful, you're clearly new to Boards.ie and the aviation forum. Compared to some web sites, what's been said here so far is mild, although you may not agree, that's mainly because we do have moderation of content on this site. There have been, and will be, much stronger comments made by both sides of this argument before it is resolved, and I can assure you, the moderators get a substantial number of posts, some abusive, from both sides of most arguments that run for any length of time.



One of the reasons why I have not commented on this thread earlier is because I have very strong (negative) feelings about both sides of this conflict, and make no mistake, this IS a very long standing and unresolved conflict that has been simmering in the background for many years, and to make it worse, there is a third side, the elephant in the room, which is the Irish Government's attitude and future stance on the "self employed" contractors who are working full time for Ryanair, without the benefits that they should have as full time employees, and they have no real choice about when they work, or the hours they work, or on many other aspects of their "employment" that should be under their control if they were truly contracting. In addition, they cannot work for another employer, as their entire available annual flying hours allowance is fully used by the only company they are allowed to work for.



The EU are looking at the whole aspect of the legal loopholes that have been used to facilitate the operation of these employment schemes by a number of employers in a number of industries, and the brutal reality is that whatever about the legality of these schemes, the moral reality of these systems is that they are not an acceptable way of operating and they are also facilitating the avoidance of significant tax and welfare payments to the state.


I have severe problems with the management attitude towards their pilots by demeaning them as "glorified bus drivers". It is very much to the pilots credit that despite operating very high pressure schedules, there have been no serious accidents in the history of Ryanair, and retaining that record takes some serious commitment from all involved, and to demean their professionalism and skills in the way that has been done on a number of occasions is a very cheap jibe indeed, and one that has and continues to cause justifiable anger from the people on the receiving end. I know exactly how much work has to be put in to get on to the first rung of the aviation ladder, it takes a huge commitment of time and money to get to that point, and that is only the start of what at times can be a very insecure job, assuming that you do actually get to being on the ladder doing a flying job that does actually earn an income.



As for the Unions, I was in an aviation union, and my personal experience of their "supposed" support for their members defies description, it's probably just as well that I have now retired, and have no requirement to even consider being a union member, if I was working in a role that had an option for union membership, my response to their request would be very short, and very hostile, as in a number of years working at the airport, I saw nothing that would encourage me that being a member of a union would be to my advantage,in reality, the opposite was the case, and on more than a few occasions, it was very clear that the way in which the full time leaders of the union operation were working was not in the interest of the workers they supposedly represented, but very much in favour of retaining their stranglehold over so many aspects of the way that the airport operated.



So, for all sorts of reasons, I am very much in a minority here, I don't like the Ryanair management style or position, and at the same time, I have no time or respect for the attitude and manner in which the unions are operating. I don't see that changing any time soon.



Now, to the present situation.For their own reasons, the unions have decided that now is the time to start trying to bring about fundamental changes in the structure and manner of flight crew employment. I can understand why they are seeking to do it, the employment situation for flight crew at the moment means that there is not a glut of 737-800 pilots available at short notice to step into the holes that would be caused by the termination of some existing employments, and it would be very hard to bring enough new hires on line quickly enough to avoid major problems in operating the schedules that are in place.


The management have known this was coming for a long time, and it has been noticeable that their public utterances in some areas have been less strident than in previous years, hopefully because they are aware that they are under the microscope of both the unions, and the EU tax authorities, and there have been several hints from Irish Ministers that their stance on "self employment" schemes was being looked at in fine detail.



In a perfect world, the Ryanair management would change their stance, and the unions would change their management style, but I am sufficiently long in the tooth to know that the chances of either of these events happening any time soon are very slim, as the stakes for both sides are very high, and right now, neither side can afford to be seen as having given ground to the other, even over non consequential things like the venue of the meeting.



Hopefully, before too much damage is done to reputations and balance sheets, both sides will see the sense in spending time to arrive at an agreeable solution that is acceptable to both sides. I am under no illusions, it's not going to be easy, or quick, and entrenched attitudes on both sides are not going to make it any easier.


Hopefully, both sides will find a way to avoid disrupting too many holidays of people that really don't deserve to be in the middle of a dispute of this nature.

The Veteran wrote: »

Are the “self employed” staff not all employees of various agencies; this they are employees but just not of Ryanair. The staff who have Dublin Airport access badges wear “contractor” badges but that is no different to our IT guys; our cleaners; various builders; etc.

The issue, among others, is that they are not as such employees of any company, there is some complex scheme that is used to put them into a "self employed" category, so they become responsible for their own tax affairs, and do not receive holiday pay for statutory holidays etc, and are also unable to get a wide range of state benefits. In addition, the employer does not pay any employers PRSI (etc) for the people who are not classified as "employed" by the company.


Revenue have some quite clear definitions of what is and is not deemed self employment, but there are legal loopholes that have been exploited by Ryanair (and other companies, especially constructions developers) and the result is a very grey area that is currently being explored very closely by a number of agencies with a view to redefining the rules.


Effectively (and I was legitimately self employed for a number of years), to meet the test of self employment, the person involved has to be able to make the decision about who they work for and for how many hours, and at what times, (among other things), so a pilot working a roster that is defined a considerable period of time ahead of it being worked, and flying the legal maximum number of hours that are allowed under the controlling legislation is not really self employed, in that they cannot decide they are not working on a particular day, and working for more than one client is not possible, as they don't have the availability of hours to legally fly as pilot for another client. If they are working more than a defined number of hours per week for one employer, then the test of "self employment" fails, and they are deemed to be an employee of the company, and therefore entitled to the relevant benefits that are part of being an employee.



I have probably over simplified this in some areas, but that's the underlying issue for many of the people who are at present flying for Ryanair, and it has been made clear that the Revenue and Social Welfare departments are reviewing the rules with a view to bringing in changes that will redefine the rules to protect the the people caught in this trap.