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Recommend electric folding scooter for end of commute (Mod Note Post #1)

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Comments

  • #602
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    cojomo2 wrote: »
    The ones that require a push start you could argue the toss. I went by the gardai a few times, got a funny stare at worst.I don't think they are bothered (until you get involved in an accident ofcourse)

    How it is started does not matter. Another way of putting it is that if the scooter is capable of propelling itself and you by mechanical means only on a level surface, then its a MPV.

    Its the same law that made those mini-moto bikes from about 10 years ago illegal in public places.

    If methods of starting were all that mattered, you could argue that a motorbike that only goes with a bumpstart is not a MPV because you had to push it to get it going.


  • #603
    cojomo2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,220 ✭✭✭cojomo2


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    How it is started does not matter. Another way of putting it is that if the scooter is capable of propelling itself and you by mechanical means only on a level surface, then its a MPV.

    Its the same law that made those mini-moto bikes from about 10 years ago illegal in public places.

    If methods of starting were all that mattered, you could argue that a motorbike that only goes with a bumpstart is not a MPV because you had to push it to get it going.

    It's open to interpretation.

    From RSA:
    What is the law on e-bikes / pedelecs / battery powered scooters? Regardless of the type of bike, the rule is as
    follows: If it can be powered by mechanical or electrical power alone (i.e. it can go without you pedalling or scooting
    it) then it is considered to be a mechanically propelled vehicle (MPV)


  • #604
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Yeah no mention of push to start.

    You don't need to scoot to keep these scooters going you can engage cruise control and not put your foot down for 10km+

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/VS_Information_Notes/Two_Three_Wheeled_Vehicles/FAQs%2520on%2520E%2520Bikes%2520and%2520Pedelecs%2520and%2520battery%2520Scooters.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjwutLy78ngAhVlpHEKHZBGA4kQFjAAegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw29TJJNRn6KGWakqqk5upOH


  • #605
    RHJ
    Closed Accounts Posts: 925 ✭✭✭RHJ


    I think by this stage it has been well established that they are either illegal or in some grey area of the law but unless you act like a complete idiot or generally behave like a dick while riding one then the vast majority of Garda simply won't care and will let you carry on your merry way.


  • #606
    cojomo2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,220 ✭✭✭cojomo2


    RHJ wrote: »
    I think by this stage it has been well established that they are either illegal or in some grey area of the law but unless you act like a complete idiot or generally behave like a dick while riding one then the vast majority of Garda simply won't care and will let you carry on your merry way.

    The push ones are in a grey area as you could agrue the toss with a judge. If they are found to be illegal...if some idiot crashes into you ..their fault..you could be in trouble for using an mpv without the necessary documents etc.


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  • #607
    mfceiling
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,867 ✭✭✭✭mfceiling


    How would you go about taxing and insuring s small electric scooter? Has anyone actually tried?


  • #608
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    mfceiling wrote: »
    How would you go about taxing and insuring s small electric scooter? Has anyone actually tried?




    Depends what type of insurance you are looking for. I am sure many of the smaller gadget insurance companies will cover for theft etc.



    Tax? no tax band for them so no chance you can tax it. You could tax it as a moped I suppose, do moped have tax


  • #609
    RHJ
    Closed Accounts Posts: 925 ✭✭✭RHJ


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    Depends what type of insurance you are looking for. I am sure many of the smaller gadget insurance companies will cover for theft etc.



    Tax? no tax band for them so no chance you can tax it. You could tax it as a moped I suppose, do moped have tax

    Yes a small moped or motorcycle does have to be taxed I can't be bothered to look up the exact rate right now, but I believe it somewhere in the region of €60 for the year I guess it could be taxed under that bracket.


  • #610
    The Enbalmer
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭The Enbalmer


    loyatemu wrote: »
    technically no-one is allowed use them on public streets, it's just not really enforced.

    It will be the minute somebody is killed on one.

    I see them around certain parts of Dublin and the way they're being driven means its only a matter of time.


  • #611
    cojomo2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,220 ✭✭✭cojomo2


    RHJ wrote: »
    Yes a small moped or motorcycle does have to be taxed I can't be bothered to look up the exact rate right now, but I believe it somewhere in the region of €60 for the year I guess it could be taxed under that bracket.

    I think a vehicle needs a seat to fall into the scope of tax.


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  • #612
    ted1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,658 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    cojomo2 wrote: »
    It's open to interpretation.

    From RSA:
    What is the law on e-bikes / pedelecs / battery powered scooters? Regardless of the type of bike, the rule is as
    follows: If it can be powered by mechanical or electrical power alone (i.e. it can go without you pedalling or scooting
    it) then it is considered to be a mechanically propelled vehicle (MPV)
    By go they mean you need to keep pedalling. Or scooting , it can only assist.


  • #613
    ted1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,658 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    beauf wrote: »
    Yeah no mention of push to start.

    You don't need to scoot to keep these scooters going you can engage cruise control and not put your foot down for 10km+

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/VS_Information_Notes/Two_Three_Wheeled_Vehicles/FAQs%2520on%2520E%2520Bikes%2520and%2520Pedelecs%2520and%2520battery%2520Scooters.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjwutLy78ngAhVlpHEKHZBGA4kQFjAAegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw29TJJNRn6KGWakqqk5upOH


    The Road Traffic Act of 1961 at Section 3(1) (a) and (b), defines a mechanically propelled vehicle as:

    “a vehicle intended or adapted for propulsion by mechanical means, including;
    (a) a bicycle or tricycle with an attachment for propelling it by mechanical power, whether or not the attachment is being used,

    (b) a vehicle the means of propulsion of which is electrical or partly electrical and partly mechanical, but not including a tramcar or other vehicle running on permanent rails;”


  • #614
    cojomo2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,220 ✭✭✭cojomo2


    ted1 wrote: »
    By go they mean you need to keep pedalling. Or scooting , it can only assist.

    Thats your interpretation..hence its a grey area..open to interpretation.


  • #615
    ED E
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,169 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    cojomo2 wrote: »
    Thats your interpretation..hence its a grey area..open to interpretation.

    No, its not.


    There's an exemption for electrically assisted bicycles. Theres no exemption for electrically powered anything else. A scooter is not a bike. Its an MPV.


  • #616
    phester28
    Registered Users Posts: 466 ✭✭phester28


    here we go again. the law is clear but only in that it is outdated and grey. Garda press office released a memmo saying that they are legal but IMO it is still grey. Until it is tested in court it appears that everyone will quote their "opinion"


  • #617
    ted1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,658 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    cojomo2 wrote: »
    Thats your interpretation..hence its a grey area..open to interpretation.

    No it’s. It my interpretation, it’s the law.


  • #618
    ted1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,658 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    phester28 wrote: »
    here we go again. the law is clear but only in that it is outdated and grey. Garda press office released a memmo saying that they are legal

    They said that the are an MPV.

    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.rte.ie/amp/1010870/




  • #619
    phester28
    Registered Users Posts: 466 ✭✭phester28


    as i said. Press office say they are legal Rte say garda Left hand say they MPV. But in the same article it is admitted by the Dep of transport that they can not be taxed unless they have a seat. Yet legislation says all MPV have to be taxed and insured.

    Yet these cant. You see the dilemma that would allow for a challenge based in Law


  • #620
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Do you have a direct link to the press office saying that. No some comment on another website.


  • #621
    ted1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,658 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    phester28 wrote: »
    as i said. Press office say they are legal Rte say garda Left hand say they MPV. But in the same article it is admitted by the Dep of transport that they can not be taxed unless they have a seat. Yet legislation says all MPV have to be taxed and insured.

    Yet these cant. You see the dilemma that would allow for a challenge based in Law

    Any link to the press office statement ?

    Last one here says they are an MPV.

    https://www.garda.ie/en/FAQs/?id=4853


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  • #622
    cojomo2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,220 ✭✭✭cojomo2


    ted1 wrote: »
    Any link to the press office statement ?

    Last one here says they are an MPV.

    https://www.garda.ie/en/FAQs/?id=4853

    From the link above:
    . The legal position is that if one of these scooters can be powered by mechanical or electrical power alone, and does not require pedalling or scooting for propulsion, then the scooter is considered to be a mechanically propelled vehicle (MPV)

    Again, this is a grey area and open to interpretation. If I was up in court, id be arguing that my scooter does require scooting for propulsion (even though this is only initially)before a motor kicks in.

    You can argue all you want but the fact remains, this is open to interpretation and a good solicitor would argue the toss and perhaps win.


  • #623
    ted1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,658 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    cojomo2 wrote: »
    From the link above:
    . The legal position is that if one of these scooters can be powered by mechanical or electrical power alone, and does not require pedalling or scooting for propulsion, then the scooter is considered to be a mechanically propelled vehicle (MPV)

    Again, this is a grey area and open to interpretation. If I was up in court, id be arguing that my scooter does require scooting for propulsion (even though this is only initially)before a motor kicks in.

    You can argue all you want but the fact remains, this is open to interpretation and a good solicitor would argue the toss and perhaps win.

    Argue all you want but it’s defined in the law.
    It’s the reason why the motor stops when you stop pedalling an E bike.


  • #624
    phester28
    Registered Users Posts: 466 ✭✭phester28


    Cant find the garda press release at the moment but another article I just googled is here.

    @ted 1 only a lot of the ebikes dont require propulsion from your pedals only that you occasionally turn them. The motor does 100% of the work. So all of these ebikes would be in the same category as you paint above.
    https://goosed.ie/electric-scooters-and-the-law-in-ireland/


  • #625
    ted1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,658 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    phester28 wrote: »
    Cant find the garda press release at the moment but another article I just googled is here.

    @ted 1 only a lot of the ebikes dont require propulsion from your pedals only that you occasionally turn them. The motor does 100% of the work. So all of these ebikes would be in the same category as you paint above.
    https://goosed.ie/electric-scooters-and-the-law-in-ireland/
    They’d be motorbikes.

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2008/act/25/enacted/en/print#sec7



    pedelec ’ means a bicycle or tricycle which is equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of 0.25 kilowatts, of which output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25 kilometres per hour, or sooner if the cyclist stops pedalling;

    ****Note the last 3 words

    I’d trust the SI website over an article by “Martin”

    Founding Editor of Goosed, Martin is a massive tech fan, into movies and will talk about anything to anyone.Read more by Martin


  • #626
    antodeco
    Registered Users, Subscribers, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,588 ✭✭✭✭antodeco


    Those who bought the Kugoo S1, have been doing some Russian research on it. A few recommendations, under where the battery compartment is, I've additionally sealed it from moisture. Put in an extra layer of Sugru around the compartment. The Russian sites say it's a precautionary measure incase you get caught out in really bad rain. They also say to seal the main display unit, but I'll leave doing that for now.

    I also noticed on review videos that the front damoner moves quite easily. Mine wouldn't move at all. I sprayed wd40 on it and it seemed to free it up a lot. Again, the Russian sites say this is a good idea to keep on top of it. Also says to do it on the rears, so will need to figure that one out.

    Unfortunately I've been unwell the last 2 weeks, so haven't really been on it, nor had the energy to really use it, but took myself 2 days just to do the above (it's a 10 minute job!).


  • #627
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    mfceiling wrote: »
    How would you go about taxing and insuring s small electric scooter? Has anyone actually tried?

    It would be impossible to do.

    You would need a Certificate of Conformity for it (which you won't get).

    If you could get one you would need to make sure the scooter meets the minimum requirements for road use (lights, brakes, tyres, speedo etc).

    You would then need to take it to a NCT test station to be examined. If it passed (which it wont), you would need to pay VRT etc and then you would get a reg number.

    Tax it, insure it (if any insurance company would quote you) and you are good to go.

    Did I mention the minimum cat M driving licence you would need?


  • #628
    cojomo2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,220 ✭✭✭cojomo2


    So what do people predict? Will the law be updated for these this year? Will Noel Rock get his bill through to have these in the same category as road legal electric bikes? Or will it go the other way ?


  • #629
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    phester28 wrote: »
    as i said. Press office say they are legal Rte say garda Left hand say they MPV. But in the same article it is admitted by the Dep of transport that they can not be taxed unless they have a seat. Yet legislation says all MPV have to be taxed and insured.

    Yet these cant. You see the dilemma that would allow for a challenge based in Law

    Not true. The electric handcarts Dublin city council staff use to empty the street bins have reg plates and are taxed. They don't have seats.

    So it does not matter whether there is a seat or not. There is no grey area regarding these things.

    They are illegal to use in public areas.


  • #630
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    cojomo2 wrote: »
    So what do people predict? Will the law be updated for these this year? Will Noel Rock get his bill through to have these in the same category as road legal electric bikes? Or will it go the other way ?

    If the law is changed, it will need to be worded very, very carefully.

    I would hope that there would be minimum standards, ie Cat M licence, lights, speedo etc.

    But it could open a whole new can of worms.


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  • #631
    Sono
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,486 ✭✭✭Sono


    How do people that have them negotiate roundabouts?


  • #632
    ...Ghost...
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭...Ghost...


    ED E wrote: »
    No, its not.


    There's an exemption for electrically assisted bicycles. Theres no exemption for electrically powered anything else. A scooter is not a bike. Its an MPV.

    What about electric mobility scooters and electric wheel chairs? I know some of the former can be as fast as the scooters we are discussing here.
    prinzeugen wrote: »
    If the law is changed, it will need to be worded very, very carefully.

    I would hope that there would be minimum standards, ie Cat M licence, lights, speedo etc.

    But it could open a whole new can of worms.

    Requiring an M license would be a step too far and would be unfair unless the same is required for electric bikes. I would be of the view that all cyclists who use the public road should have a license and pay a small annual insurance premium, but such a measure would never see the light of day, because it would be seen to discourage cycling.
    Sono wrote: »
    How do people that have them negotiate roundabouts?

    Same way a cyclist does.

    Stay Free



  • #633
    Garibaldi?
    Registered Users Posts: 446 ✭✭Garibaldi?


    Can you just walk along side these vehicles if they run out of power or break down? (like you can with a bike). Or do you have to pick them up?


  • #634
    dilallio
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,728 ✭✭✭dilallio


    Garibaldi? wrote: »
    Can you just walk along side these vehicles if they run out of power or break down? (like you can with a bike). Or do you have to pick them up?

    They can be walked upright, walked folded (one wheel on the ground), or carried.


  • #635
    antodeco
    Registered Users, Subscribers, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,588 ✭✭✭✭antodeco


    You can also just scoot along like a normal scooter aswell. I use a combination of this when I'm out and about on it. Coming up to lights etc, it's an easier to speed to handle.


  • #636
    cojomo2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,220 ✭✭✭cojomo2


    Latest on the subject
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/rsa-to-examine-regulation-of-electric-scooters-1.3804729%3fmode=amp

    And the most interesting piece:
    "Most avoid a designation of a mechanically-propelled vehicle because they require a kick-off to start"


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  • #637
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    A lot of media articles are not researched they just regurgitate what's on forums. Hence it's often wrong.


  • #638
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    ...Ghost... wrote: »
    What about electric mobility scooters and electric wheel chairs? I know some of the former can be as fast as the scooters we are discussing here.
    ...

    Mobility scooters, wheel chairs have their own class and are limited to very slow speeds in that classification.

    What ones do you "know" are fast as these scooters. These scooters vary in top speeds some do 20-60kph.


  • #639
    cojomo2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,220 ✭✭✭cojomo2


    beauf wrote: »
    Mobility scooters, wheel chairs have their own class and are limited to very slow speeds in that classification.

    What ones do you "know" are fast as these scooters. These scooters vary in top speeds some do 20-60kph.

    Overwhelming majority's being used on public roads here are limited to 25ish kph, in line with legal e bikes.


  • #640
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    cojomo2 wrote: »
    Overwhelming majority's being used on public roads here are limited to 25ish kph, in line with legal e bikes.

    eBike(Pedelec) give assistance only to 25. You can't move on electric power only.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedelec
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedelec#Legal_status_of_pedelecs_worldwide


    Scooters are not in line with this or any standard. Its that simple.


  • #641
    cojomo2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,220 ✭✭✭cojomo2


    beauf wrote: »
    eBike(Pedelec) give assistance only to 25. You can't move on electric power only.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedelec
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedelec#Legal_status_of_pedelecs_worldwide


    Scooters are not in line with this or any standard. Its that simple.

    I think you misunderstood what I said. The speed most of them go is in line with legal e bikes.


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  • #642
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    cojomo2 wrote: »
    I think you misunderstood what I said. The speed most of them go is in line with legal e bikes.

    Last scooter mentioned is the Kugoo S1 top speed 30kph.
    This one is 40kph https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108801308&postcount=363

    Simple fact is on a eBike you have to cycle, as in put in physical effort to keep moving. You stop it stops.
    On the Scooters you have cruise control, once at the top speed it will sit at the top speed without moving a muscle.

    There is nothing similar about them.


  • #643
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    cojomo2 wrote: »
    Latest on the subject
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/rsa-to-examine-regulation-of-electric-scooters-1.3804729%3fmode=amp

    And the most interesting piece:
    "Most avoid a designation of a mechanically-propelled vehicle because they require a kick-off to start"

    That is completely incorrect and the person from the RSA should know Irish road laws.

    Means of starting does not matter as has been posted already.
    ...Ghost... wrote: »
    What about electric mobility scooters and electric wheel chairs? I know some of the former can be as fast as the scooters we are discussing here.
    .

    They are classed as medical aids not vehicles. I think the only mention they get in the Road Traffic Act is about them not being allowed on motorways.


  • #644
    Zurbaran
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 792 ✭✭✭Zurbaran


    antodeco wrote: »
    Those who bought the Kugoo S1, have been doing some Russian research on it. A few recommendations, under where the battery compartment is, I've additionally sealed it from moisture. Put in an extra layer of Sugru around the compartment. The Russian sites say it's a precautionary measure incase you get caught out in really bad rain. They also say to seal the main display unit, but I'll leave doing that for now.

    I also noticed on review videos that the front damoner moves quite easily. Mine wouldn't move at all. I sprayed wd40 on it and it seemed to free it up a lot. Again, the Russian sites say this is a good idea to keep on top of it. Also says to do it on the rears, so will need to figure that one out.

    Unfortunately I've been unwell the last 2 weeks, so haven't really been on it, nor had the energy to really use it, but took myself 2 days just to do the above (it's a 10 minute job!).
    Read a comment on YouTube that you need to loosen the suspension.

    Mine now sparks when I connect the charger to it like I’ve seen in reviews of the zoom scooter.


  • #645
    grogi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    cojomo2 wrote: »
    Latest on the subject
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/rsa-to-examine-regulation-of-electric-scooters-1.3804729%3fmode=amp

    And the most interesting piece:
    "Most avoid a designation of a mechanically-propelled vehicle because they require a kick-off to start"

    Do a mental experiment and replace the electric motor in them with gasoline one. It suddenly became a mopped, didn't it?


  • #646
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    I wish they would sort it out.

    I'll probably get one myself soon.


  • #647
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    grogi wrote: »
    Do a mental experiment and replace the electric motor in them with gasoline one. It suddenly became a mopped, didn't it?

    Or remove the starting motor on a motorbike so it can only be started with a push. No longer a MPV allegedly!


  • #648
    Zurbaran
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 792 ✭✭✭Zurbaran


    Life is too short to be worrying about how legal a scooter that goes the speed of a bicycle is


  • #649
    Calahonda52
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,582 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    Zurbaran wrote: »
    Life is too short to be worrying about how legal a scooter that goes the speed of a bicycle is

    Indeed, especially with no insurance and considering the payouts in the Irish courts for accidents, staged or otherwise.:pac:

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



  • #650
    Zurbaran
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 792 ✭✭✭Zurbaran


    Calahonda52 wrote: »
    Indeed, especially with no insurance and considering the payouts in the Irish courts for accidents, staged or otherwise.:pac:
    Life is too short to be worrying about that as well. Although since they aren’t insured there is unlikely to be large claims made as there is no insurance to pay out.


  • #651
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    beauf wrote: »
    I wish they would sort it out.

    I'll probably get one myself soon.

    As I said it would be a minefield. If minimum standards could be agreed for construction, lights, power output etc then they may become legal.

    The problem is there are 100 different models made 100 different ways.

    I can bet the tyres are marked "not for highway use". That another is a reason why they are illegal, not just the power source. Even cycle tyres have to meet a specification to be legal.


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