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Milk and Dairy

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    #302
    KennisWhale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 186 ✭✭KennisWhale


    ganmo wrote: »
    Millions are won(and lost) in non issue clauses in contracts.
    If it is a non issue why haven't the vegan products made the change already?

    It's a non-issue for consumers as to the current labelling so why would they change? Are the farmers being sensitive or vegan friendly food consumers getting upset? It seems like a pointless EU solo run.


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    #303
    KennisWhale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 186 ✭✭KennisWhale


    Gary kk wrote: »
    Probably became an issue when companies marketed as non meat or no meat burgers instead of veggie burgers.

    Not sure how a cheese can be made without cultured milk so like are you buying a lump of processed vegetable oil ?

    If you want to consume something that resembles cheese without having to go through the whole impregnating a cow to get milk out of it in order to make cheese then you would understand why the name cheese would be used - the product is made from oil, is more fattening than cheese for sure but is not mistaken for real cheese.

    I still don't see what the issue is and for whom; it seems to the EU suits making a storm in a teacup.


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    #304
    KennisWhale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 186 ✭✭KennisWhale


    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/agribusiness-and-food/farm-lobby-seeks-eu-ban-on-vegan-burger-and-veggie-sausage-1.4388520?mode=amp

    Ah, of course. Unsurprisingly the meat industry are being snowflakes and moaning yet again.

    Bunch of cretins.


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    #305
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    KennisWhale wrote: »
    It's a non-issue for consumers as to the current labelling so why would they change? Are the farmers being sensitive or vegan friendly food consumers getting upset? It seems like a pointless EU solo run.

    Not that ****e again. The only ones being "sensitive" on Boards seem to have been some posters here. There wasn't even a comment in the farming forum until the poll was put up for a laugh after it was posted here.

    The main reason it is now being discussed is to disabue the idea that this was the idea of 'Irish' 'farmers' as some here seem to believe. Currently the EU agricultural committee are discussing the issue on an EU wide basis. There's lots of other EU discussions on naming foodstuffs so I don't think its in any way unique tbf.

    I'd suggest you read the EU proposal document before relying on The Irish Times media piece

    https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/A-8-2019-0198_EN.pdf#page=169[/quote]

    That said - the article does seem to think its two groups with financial interests in this turf war. I suppose you'd call this lot 'snowflakes and moaning' 'cretins' as well?
    A group of plant-based food producers and supporting groups including Ikea, Unilever and the European Vegetarian Union have formed an alliance to push back against the plan....

    I'd say leave them at it...


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    #306
    KennisWhale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 186 ✭✭KennisWhale


    gozunda wrote: »
    Not that ****e again. The only ones being "sensitive" on Boards seem to have been some posters here. There wasn't even a comment in the farming forum until the poll was put up for a laugh after it was posted here.

    The main reason it is now being discussed is to disabue the idea that this was the idea of 'Irish' 'farmers' as some here seem to believe. Currently the EU agricultural committee are discussing the issue on an EU wide basis. There's lots of other EU discussions on naming foodstuffs so I don't think its in any way unique tbf.

    I'd suggest you read the EU proposal document before relying on The Irish Times media piece

    https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/A-8-2019-0198_EN.pdf#page=169

    That said - the article does seem to think its two groups with financial interests in this turf war. I suppose you'd call this lot 'snowflakes and moaning' 'cretins' as well?


    I'd say leave them at it...

    The ones calling for the ban are the ones who are snowflake animal agricultural lobbyists to the EU looking for something to moan about. Calling for a ban on something is very different to standing up to those calling for the ban. Evil prevails through people's inaction, that is how I see this.

    It is not surprising that it is the meat industry lobbyists getting upset about, for example, beans mashed together into a circle and being called a bean "burger". For me, I love burgers but don't eat dead animals so it is helpful to see "veggie burgers" in a supermarket or in a restaurant. This is helpful, not harmful, so it is nonsensical to try to ban it as a term.

    As I said, it is so short-sighted to call for a ban on the terms "steak, sausage, escalope, burger and hamburger", as a simple solution should this ridiculous ban come in to effect is to write on the packet "Not a beef burger" for a vegan burger trying to mimic the taste and texture of beef.

    Interesting from the draft amendment you linked is the following which, to my mind, is unworkable;
    Names that fall under Article 17 of Regulation (EU) No 1169/2011 that are currently used for meat products and meat preparations shall be reserved exclusively for products containing meat.

    These designations include, for example:
    - Steak
    - Sausage

    In effect, where a term is currently used for a meat product it shall be reserved exclusively for products containing meat. Why is this unworkable? Well, the term beef disc or chicken cubes, if used now could mean that term is reserved exclusively for products containing meat. I also wonder, if donuts contain meat products, does that mean that the term cannot be used for vegan donuts?

    https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32013R1308&from=EN

    Annex VII of this regulation is being amended to provide for the new section you linked to. Annex VII is titled "DEFINITIONS, DESIGNATIONS AND SALES DESCRIPTION OF PRODUCTS REFERRED TO IN ARTICLE 78" and provides;
    For the purposes of this Annex, the "sale description" means the name under which a foodstuff is sold, within the meaning of Article 5(1) of Directive 2000/13/EC, or the name of the food, within the meaning of Article 17 of
    Regulation (EU) No 1169/2011.

    Article 78;
    In addition, where relevant, to the applicable marketing standards, the definitions, designations and sales descriptions provided for in Annex VII shall apply to the following sectors or products:

    (a) beef and veal;
    (b) wine;
    (c) milk and milk products intended for human consumption;
    (d) poultrymeat;
    (e) eggs;
    (f) spreadable fats intended for human consumption; and
    (g) olive oil and table olives.

    2. The definitions, designations or sales descriptions provided for in Annex VII may be used in the Union only for the marketing of a product which conforms to the corresponding requirements laid down in that Annex.

    The key then is whether a name falls under article 17 of Regulation 1169/2011, which provides;
    1. The name of the food shall be its legal name. In the absence of such a name, the name of the food shall be its customary name, or, if there is no customary name or the customary name is not used, a descriptive name of the food shall be provided.

    2. The use in the Member State of marketing of the name of the food under which the product is legally manufactured and marketed in the Member State of production shall be allowed. However, where the application of the other provisions of this Regulation, in particular those set out in Article 9, would not
    enable consumers in the Member State of marketing to know the true nature of the food and to distinguish it from foods with which they could confuse it, the name of the food shall be accompanied by other descriptive information which shall appear in proximity to the name of the food.

    3. In exceptional cases, the name of the food in the Member State of production shall not be used in the Member State of marketing when the food which it designates in the Member State of production is so different, as regards its composition or manufacture, from the food known under that name in the Member State of marketing that paragraph 2 is not sufficient to ensure, in the Member State of marketing, correct information for consumers.

    4. The name of the food shall not be replaced with a name protected as intellectual property, brand name or fancy name.

    5. Specific provisions on the name of the food and particulars that shall accompany it are laid down in Annex VI.

    Annex VI referred to in 5 above is intended to ensure that those selling meat (sly bastards) don't try, for example, to hide where other components were added or where it was irradiated it says so on the packaging.

    From my reading of Article 17, the clear purpose is to ensure that consumers are not mislead with food labelling. Therefore, in order to try to claim the word "burger or sausage" for meat products, it would be necessary to demonstrate its consistency with Article 17 where using such terms for non-meat products would in fact mislead consumers. As outlined way above, labelling vegan burgers as burgers in fact is to prevent the likes of me being misled.


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    #307
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    KennisWhale wrote: »
    ...The ones calling for the ban are the ones who are snowflake animal agricultural lobbyists to the EU looking for something to moan about. Calling for a ban on something is very different to standing up to those calling for the ban. Evil prevails through people's inaction, that is how I see this.
    It is not surprising that it is the meat industry lobbyists getting upset about, for example, beans mashed together into a circle and being called a bean "burger". For me, I love burgers but don't eat dead animals so it is helpful to see "veggie burgers" in a supermarket or in a restaurant. This is helpful, not harmful, so it is nonsensical to try to ban it as a term.
    As I said, it is so short-sighted to call for a ban on the terms "steak, sausage, escalope, burger and hamburger", as a simple solution should this ridiculous ban come in to effect is to write on the packet "Not a beef burger" for a vegan burger trying to mimic the taste and texture of beef.Interesting from the draft amendment you linked is the following which, to my mind, is unworkable;In effect, where a term is currently used for a meat product it shall be reserved exclusively for products containing meat. Why is this unworkable? Well, the term beef disc or chicken cubes, if used now could mean that term is reserved exclusively for products containing meat. I also wonder, if donuts contain meat products, does that mean that the term cannot be used for vegan donuts?
    https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32013R1308&from=EN
    Annex VII of this regulation is being amended to provide for the new section you linked to. Annex VII is titled "DEFINITIONS, DESIGNATIONS AND SALES DESCRIPTION OF PRODUCTS REFERRED TO IN ARTICLE 78" and provides;Article 78;
    The key then is whether a name falls under article 17 of Regulation 1169/2011, which providesAnnex VI referred to in 5 above is intended to ensure that those selling meat (sly bastards) don't try, for example, to hide where other components were added or where it was irradiated it says so on the packaging.
    From my reading of Article 17, the clear purpose is to ensure that consumers are not mislead with food labelling. Therefore, in order to try to claim the word "burger or sausage" for meat products, it would be necessary to demonstrate its consistency with Article 17 where using such terms for non-meat products would in fact mislead consumers. As outlined way above, labelling vegan burgers as burgers in fact is to prevent the likes of me being misled.

    Well glad you got to read the actual proposal and not just the IT blurb on it.

    Odd then you're still claiming that -
    "The ones calling for the ban are the ones who are snowflake animal agricultural lobbyists. Calling for a ban on something is very different to standing up to those calling for the ban. Evil prevails through people's inaction, that is how I see this.

    What 'ban'? There's no proposed ban of any processed foods which don't actually contain meat. No one is slapping processed foodstuffs out of anyone's hands. It will still be available whatever the outcome.

    And what the fuk has 'evil got to do with anything?

    So from the proposal - the EU is currently voting on the nomeculture related to this issue. As you said - regarding Article 17, the purpose is to ensure that consumers are not mislead with food labelling. That's as maybe.

    If you go back to the Irish Times article which you linked it is correct in one respect.

    This fight is between two corporate industries ie animal food processing vs the plant food processing industry.
    A group of plant-based food producers and supporting groups including Ikea, Unilever and the European Vegetarian Union have formed an alliance to push back against the plan....

    You honestly believe the likes of Unilever are simply not looking to protect their profits as well and flog their highly processed foods?

    Throwing around vegan hate terms like "snowflake animal agricultural lobbyists" doesn't help the discussion btw. It's just as easy to call plant food lobbyists such as the "European Vegetarian Union" and Unilever snowflakes, cretins, sly bastards etc. Easily done.

    I get it that you don't eat meat btw or 'dead animals' as you called it - I certainly don't know anyone who eats 'live animals' btw. And I sincerely believe the absolute majority of people can figure out if something is plant based or otherwise. Most food of that type has "suitable for Vegetarians" or similar written on it in my experience.

    What's for sure is that small scale producers whether animal or vegetable have fuk all stake in that fight.

    As I suggested - probably best leave the them to it.

    Btw - is there donuts with meat in them? :D


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    #308
    KennisWhale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 186 ✭✭KennisWhale


    gozunda wrote: »
    Well glad you got to read the actual proposal and not just the IT blurb on it.

    Odd then you're still claiming that -



    What 'ban'? There's no proposed ban of any processed foods which don't actually contain meat. No one is slapping processed foodstuffs out of anyone's hands. It will still be available whatever the outcome.

    And what the fuk has 'evil got to do with anything?

    So from the proposal - the EU is currently voting on the nomeculture related to this issue. As you said - regarding Article 17, the purpose is to ensure that consumers are not mislead with food labelling. That's as maybe.

    If you go back to the Irish Times article which you linked it is correct in one respect.

    This fight is between two corporate industries ie animal food processing vs the plant food processing industry.



    You honestly believe the likes of Unilever are simply not looking to protect their profits as well and flog their highly processed foods?

    Throwing around vegan hate terms like "snowflake animal agricultural lobbyists" doesn't help the discussion btw. It's just as easy to call plant food lobbyists such as the "European Vegetarian Union" snowflakes, cretins etc. Easily done.

    What's for sure is that small scale producers whether animal or vegetable have fuk all stake in that fight.

    As I suggested - probably best leave the them to it.

    Btw - is there donuts with meat in them? :D

    There is a proposed ban on using an innocuous label like burgers or sausages unless it contains meat or meat products. This is the ban I am talking about, which is being supported (or perhaps even sponsored given how legislation can be proposed) by the meat lobbyists. The opposing sides are rightly standing up, IMO, and calling for the amendment regulation not to pass with these absurd proposals. By lying down and just letting the wheels of regulation turn, who knows what will be implemented unless people questioned "hold on, why are you doing this?". That is the evil I am referring to, it can creep in via lobbying and regulation, little amendments here and there, until we've been regulated into a nightmare dystopia. Kind of like how the meat industry are allowed to advertise their products everywhere without a true farm-to-fork story (ie the gratuituous slaughter part of the process is glossed over or entirely absent) - if a group of EU citizens lobbied to put the graphic slaughter pictures on meat product packaging, it would be a huge uphill battle as a result of the tentacles of the industry seeping into the political and regulatory process.

    I think we can agree that no normal person is confused by the labelling of a vegan product as a burger confuses people into thinking it is a meat burger. This is the crux of the issue; is it misleading to label a vegan "sausage" or "escalope" or "burger" etc.

    On the donut point, I'm not sure but let's say a meat "pie" as a better example. My reading of the proposed amendment is that terms used for meat products are going to be reserved exclusively for meat products. Therefore, say goodbye to "apple pie", which would be ridiculous.


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    #309
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    KennisWhale wrote: »
    There is a proposed ban on using an innocuous label like burgers or sausages unless it contains meat or meat products. This is the ban I am talking about, which is being supported (or perhaps even sponsored given how legislation can be proposed) by the meat lobbyists. The opposing sides are rightly standing up, IMO, and calling for the amendment regulation not to pass with these absurd proposals. By lying down and just letting the wheels of regulation turn, who knows what will be implemented unless people questioned "hold on, why are you doing this?". That is the evil I am referring to, it can creep in via lobbying and regulation, little amendments here and there, until we've been regulated into a nightmare dystopia. Kind of like how the meat industry are allowed to advertise their products everywhere without a true farm-to-fork story (ie the gratuituous slaughter part of the process is glossed over or entirely absent) - if a group of EU citizens lobbied to put the graphic slaughter pictures on meat product packaging, it would be a huge uphill battle as a result of the tentacles of the industry seeping into the political and regulatory process.

    I think we can agree that no normal person is confused by the labelling of a vegan product as a burger confuses people into thinking it is a meat burger. This is the crux of the issue; is it misleading to label a vegan "sausage" or "escalope" or "burger" etc.

    On the donut point, I'm not sure but let's say a meat "pie" as a better example. My reading of the proposed amendment is that terms used for meat products are going to be reserved exclusively for meat products. Therefore, say goodbye to "apple pie", which would be ridiculous.

    It's two food processing industries having a slugging match. And yes there are lobbyists on both sides.

    Don't make the mistake that corporate bodies have your interests at heart. They dont. The processed plant food lobby and their opposite are just as self interested as each other.

    As for your take on "gratuituous slaughter"? As already said no one I know consumes 'live' animals. The slaughter of animals for food is highly regulated and inspected here. The process cannot be described as 'gratuitous'. If you really want to go down that slippery slope of putting photos on packing. We will also have to put the "gratuituous slaughter" of wildlife on all plant based foods as well. Queue photos of mangled rabbits etc etc. Not sure how well that would go down ...

    As I said I'm presuming most people who don't want to eat meat are generally well able to use their faculties and identify which goods state "suitable for Vegetarians" or similar. And from reading the proposal - there are no plans to ban 'apple pies' or their equivalent

    Anyway to reiterate - it is evident that in opposition of the original suggestion that these proposals were 'farmers being sensitive" - its certainly not something that anyone I know is getting their knickers in a knot over.

    Afaik the results of the debate will be published shortly


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    #310
    Gary kk
    Registered Users Posts: 675 ✭✭✭Gary kk


    Its misleading to label products non meat or meat less or beyond meat. It was for marketers to get some extra into shopping basket and you know it.

    Side note I use tart not pie.


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    #311
    Gary kk
    Registered Users Posts: 675 ✭✭✭Gary kk


    There you go terms traditionally used for meat are a go but cheese and yogurt is banned

    https://amp.rte.ie/amp/1173526/?__twitter_impression=true


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    #312
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users Posts: 13,791 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Oh God now we're going to have meat eaters buying veggie burgers by accident! As if the farmers don't have enough to worry about!


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    #313
    Gary kk
    Registered Users Posts: 675 ✭✭✭Gary kk


    I just would like to point out the vegetable growers and grain producers are commonly known as farmers.

    Some people here seem to have forgotten that.


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    #314
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users Posts: 13,791 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Gary kk wrote: »
    I just would like to point out the vegetable growers and grain producers are commonly known as farmers.

    Some people here seem to have forgotten that.

    They're not the ones stalking the vegetarian forum though and questioning people's diets all the time though


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    #315
    Gary kk
    Registered Users Posts: 675 ✭✭✭Gary kk


    Thelonious Monk wrote: »
    They're not the ones stalking the vegetarian forum though and questioning people's diets all the time though

    Ah you love having us over :) It allows you to throw words like snowflake and abuse around to see the reaction.

    Well I have enjoyed reading the post anyway. Still laughing at some.


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    #316
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users Posts: 13,791 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Why are we allowed say peanut butter?


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    #317
    emaherx
    Registered Users Posts: 5,971 ✭✭✭emaherx


    Thelonious Monk wrote: »
    They're not the ones stalking the vegetarian forum though and questioning people's diets all the time though

    Says the person most obsessed by cattle on all of boards.ie.

    Sure why wouldn't farmers chat here, there is more cattle chat here than the local mart. :D

    Many livestock farmers also grow your fruit and veg and grains for your preferred alcoholic beverage too.


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    #318
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users Posts: 13,791 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    emaherx wrote: »
    Says the person most obsessed by cattle on all of boards.ie.

    Sure why wouldn't farmers chat here, there is more cattle chat here than the local mart. :D

    Many livestock farmers also grow your fruit and veg and grains for your preferred alcoholic beverage too.

    Yeah but you don't see me in the farming forum do you. Most of the fruit and veg comes from up the road in North Dublin actually, 55% or something.


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    #319
    emaherx
    Registered Users Posts: 5,971 ✭✭✭emaherx


    Thelonious Monk wrote: »
    Yeah but you don't see me in the farming forum do you. Most of the fruit and veg comes from up the road in North Dublin actually, 55% or something.

    The other 45% is still a significant amount.
    I like to grow as much as I can in the back garden but variety and seasonality brings me else where too. Nobody's perfect ;)

    I don't frequent the vegan forum too often but it's a public forum and I only join in in conversations about farming. Same as other forums like AH, farm related topic appears in boards main feed an I give it a look.


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    #320
    ganmo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,748 ✭✭✭ganmo


    Thelonious Monk wrote: »
    Yeah but you don't see me in the farming forum do you. Most of the fruit and veg comes from up the road in North Dublin actually, 55% or something.

    Ah gotta love those factory farms :p


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    #321
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users Posts: 13,791 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    You'll all be delighted to hear CAP was again passed in EU parliament just now, a disaster for the environment and wildlife and goes totally against the EU's supposed Green deal.


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    #322
    Gary kk
    Registered Users Posts: 675 ✭✭✭Gary kk


    Thelonious Monk wrote: »
    You'll all be delighted to hear CAP was again passed in EU parliament just now, a disaster for the environment and wildlife and goes totally against the EU's supposed Green deal.

    I don't know if I am happy or not about it tbh Thelonious, both sides only told their own story. Farmers read the same papers you do I know you won't believe me but a lot of farms are doing great work on their own backs.


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    #323
    emaherx
    Registered Users Posts: 5,971 ✭✭✭emaherx


    Thelonious Monk wrote: »
    disaster for the environment and wildlife and goes totally against the EU's supposed Green deal.

    How so?
    Getting money from CAP, more and more involves signing up to environmental schemes and taking action to reduce emissions and protecting wildlife.


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    #324
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Thelonious Monk wrote: »
    Yeah but you don't see me in the farming forum do you. Most of the fruit and veg comes from up the road in North Dublin actually, 55% or something.


    Doesn't stop your regular constant moaning about farming on every other forum on Boards tbf. But hey you seem to think all farmers are the same. A question? How do you face buying food at all knowing that even with carrots that there are serious consequences for wildlife and the environment.

    And I won't go into a discussion about the amount of raw **** pumped into Dublin Bay every year by the inhabitants of Dublin. Such conscience must be killing tbf.


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    #325
    KennisWhale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 186 ✭✭KennisWhale


    “It’s pathetic that the parliament wouldn’t even stand up to the industrial agriculture lobbyists on this,” Greenpeace EU agriculture policy director Marco Contiero put in a statement.

    “The votes won’t change the fact that more and more people are eating more vegetables and switching to meat and dairy alternatives for the sake of their health and the environment, and will continue to call dairy-free products ‘yogurt’ and ‘cheese’ anyway.”

    Spot on. Fcuk them.


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    #326
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Thelonious Monk wrote: »
    Why are we allowed say peanut butter?

    And coconut milk


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    #327
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    eviltwin wrote: »
    And coconut milk

    Coconuts are absolute fekers to milk I can tell you ... :p


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    #328
    emaherx
    Registered Users Posts: 5,971 ✭✭✭emaherx


    KennisWhale wrote: »
    “It’s pathetic that the parliament wouldn’t even stand up to the industrial agriculture lobbyists on this,” Greenpeace EU agriculture policy director Marco Contiero put in a statement.

    “The votes won’t change the fact that more and more people are eating more vegetables and switching to meat and dairy alternatives for the sake of their health and the environment, and will continue to call dairy-free products ‘yogurt’ and ‘cheese’ anyway.”

    Spot on. Fcuk them.

    It's fairly pathetic that most of producers of these alternatives to meat and dairy still claim to be healthier and more environmentally friendly. It's fair enough if someone wants to eat them as a treat as an alternative to eating animals but the jury's out on them being either healthier or more environmentally friendly, more and more studies are not finding in their favour.

    That's not a particular dig at vegan foods in general just those particular extremely processed products and I'm not talking about the more traditional veggie burgers, I'd actually prefer one of them to any of the meat like alternatives.


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    #329
    Gael23
    Registered Users Posts: 12,086 ✭✭✭✭Gael23


    Also if any dairy cow gives birth to a male calf it’s considered waste product and usually shot at birth


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    #330
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    KennisWhale wrote: »
    “It’s pathetic that the parliament wouldn’t even stand up to the industrial agriculture lobbyists on this,” Greenpeace EU agriculture policy director Marco Contiero put in a statement.
    “The votes won’t change the fact that more and more people are eating more vegetables and switching to meat and dairy alternatives for the sake of their health and the environment, and will continue to call dairy-free products ‘yogurt’ and ‘cheese’ anyway.”
    Spot on. Fcuk them.

    You do now realise that the "industrial agriculture lobbyists" include those of the highly processed plant food lobby like Unilever yes?

    Eating 'vegetables' doesn't magically save the environment btw. Some of the most intensive and highest input types of agriculture are intensive horticulture and arable production. But yeah fcuk them yeah?


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    #331
    emaherx
    Registered Users Posts: 5,971 ✭✭✭emaherx


    Gael23 wrote: »
    Also if any dairy cow gives birth to a male calf it’s considered waste product and usually shot at birth

    Nope, not the norm here by any stretch of the imagination. But why let the truth get in the way of a good story.


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