Milk and Dairy

Serendipity99

I've been a vegan now for over a year (I was a vegetarian for a few years before that). I wish I'd become a vegan much earlier. I would have if I had known the facts about how milk is produced.

Have a look at this 4-minute video: http://www.animalaid.org.uk/h/f/CAMPAIGNS/blog//4//?be_id=284
It shows what is involved in order to get cows to produce milk.
The main points are:

-Calves separated from their mothers at birth, causing severe stress.
-Cows udders are massive (this is totally unnatural).
-Cows suffer from lameness and mastitis as a result .
-Cows are kept pregnant constantly (through artificial insemination) in order to produce milk all year round.

-Cows all end up in the slaughterhouse when they are not deemed 'useful' any longer.
-Male calves (babies, essentially) are slaughtered because they are surplus to requirements.


Do humans have the right to do this to cows?


Mod warning post #537

loueuro2

ya its really awful, i was vegetarian for 14 years and now vegan 6mths, only found out then the cruelty involved in the dairy industry. i think people dont realise how bad it is, its a pity its not advertised or something instead they advertise cows on beaches for yoherts!! if people knew the truth behind it maybe it would make some difference. its so easy to be vegan no excuses. these poor little calves....

Serendipity99

another 4-minute video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kM387cI4rk&feature=fvw

And if you're still not convinced.. try the self-preservation angle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYpafipJyDE



good luck..

Worztron

Do you guys drink soy milk? Is that the only alternative to dairy milk?

sweet-rasmus

There's soya milk, oat milk, almond milk, quinoa milk and rice milk that I know of.

Personally, I make oat milk when baking/cooking at home. Just mix porridge oats, water and a pinch of salt and strain

Worztron

I watched those videos (links in previous posts). It is awful the way animals are treated.

Please check out Earthlings (2005) if you have not done so. I must WARN everyone though that it is extremely difficult to watch. It is not suitable for kids. You can watch it at http://www.earthlings.com/. It covers the dairy industry and a whole lot more.

Serendipity99

This is an excellent video. Its called "What's Wrong with Dairy". Its 5 minutes long: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6d9MdUrtLt4&feature=related

NecroSteve

Rasmus, you left out hemp milk. I love that stuff. Sprout some hemp seeds, throw em in the blender with twice the volume of water, and strain out the shells. Goes with everything, full of omegas and protein, etc. etc.

And I have to say, in a slight bout of militarism, that professing concern for animal welfare yet not being vegan is nothing other than hypocrisy. VEGANISM IS EASY!!

CokaColumbo

I have been thinking about issues relating to veganism recently and I am wondering how effective the diet aspect is in eliminating death. When you eat less meat, eggs etc., you naturally increase your consumption of vegetables and grains, fruits etc. But the production of these things involves using herbicides and pesticides which poison animals; using animal manure etc. as fertiliser which means complicity in exploitation but also it creates 'run off' into river, harming aquatic life and habitats; the violent killing of large numbers of animals and their habitats in the process of harvesting crops and tilling land etc.

Although refraining from eating meat and drinking milk reduces demand for dead cows etc., doesn't the increased reliance on other products simply kill animals in other ways?

Serendipity99

To answer 'CokaColumbo's' question:

80% of all crops that are grown go to feed cattle. If we were all to go vegan, that land mass would simply switch to feeding people instead of animals - so no change in terms of the animals (ie. mice and insects) killed as a side effect of pesticides and harvesting.

As for fertilizer (ie. cow manure) - in the absence of cattle we would have to use organic fertilizer, or vegan-organic fertilizer which is formed through decayed plants and other natural substances. (You can look up 'vegan-organic gardening' on the web for a description of this growing and popular new movement). So, in terms of pollution of rivers and so on, vegan is actually the answer.

Serendipity99

For any of you interested in going vegan, the Vegan Society's website is a great place to start. It has everything you need to know about being vegan:
http://www.vegansociety.com/

Vegan Ireland's website is also very good: http://veganireland.vegaplanet.org/. Any vegan website will give you tons of recipes.

Nowadays, there are vegan versions of almost every type of food, including milk, cheese, cream, mayo, sausage, chicken, burgers and mince. So there is actually NO sacrifice involved.

CokaColumbo

Serendipity99 wrote: »

To answer 'CokaColumbo's' question:

80% of all crops that are grown go to feed cattle. If we were all to go vegan, that land mass would simply switch to feeding people instead of animals - so no change in terms of the animals (ie. mice and insects) killed as a side effect of pesticides and harvesting.

As for fertilizer (ie. cow manure) - in the absence of cattle we would have to use organic fertilizer, or vegan-organic fertilizer which is formed through decayed plants and other natural substances. (You can look up 'vegan-organic gardening' on the web for a description of this growing and popular new movement). So, in terms of pollution of rivers and so on, vegan is actually the answer.

But what if the cow is grass-fed?

Monty Burnz

A cow would eat you, and everyone you love, if it had the chance.

OakeyDokey

Ugh! that is terrible I watched a PETA2 DVD a couple of years ago and I still find it hard thinking about it.

NUTZZ

Monty Burnz wrote: »

A cow would eat you, and everyone you love, if it had the chance.

Mark Hamill

Serendipity99 wrote: »

As for fertilizer (ie. cow manure) - in the absence of cattle we would have to use organic fertilizer, or vegan-organic fertilizer which is formed through decayed plants and other natural substances.

Would there be sufficient quantity of vegan fertilizer to support the amount to food we need?

Serendipity99 wrote: »

So, in terms of pollution of rivers and so on, vegan is actually the answer.

Vegan fertilizer run off isn't bad for rivers?

Worztron

I just tried soymilk today for the first time. I had it in my tea. I liked it. It obviously tasted different to dairy milk but was actually very nice.
It was also fortified with vitamins B, B12, D2 and E amongst others.

BengaLover

A couple of questions from a non vegan.

Do you eat eggs (obviously the free range type)
and would you use milk if it comes from a source where no cruelty such as the type highlighted here happens, ie if you had your own cow etc..

What are the principles of veganism, is it based on animal welfare or health reasons.?
Personally, I dont believe that humans need to eat meat or drink a liquid intended for baby cows, but what about eggs..Cos they arent a by-product...
Thanks for reading.

NecroSteve

Eggs are just menstrual waste for the most part alright. But the point is that the hens who prdouce them are often kept in terrible conditions, including the free range ones.

Anyway, I don't see the appeal of something that's 80% saturated fat.

BengaLover

We keep a few hens as the family love eggs.
When I was a child I once saw my mother crack an egg into a pan and there was a tiny embryo in it, I never ate an egg again..
Thinking about it, an egg is basically placenta and amnioctic fluid isnt it..
I could easily go vegan but wouldnt have any support..:D

Athene

Hello there,

Sorry if i'm hi-jacking; I have wanted to convert from a veggie diet to a plant based diet for a while now and I've decided that post pancake day is a good time for a trial run so i'm looking for some advice.

I'm looking for suggestions on meals not based on carbs?

help appreciated thanks!

Serendipity99

Hiya!
Well, you could try eating lots of salad! And you could have some tofu with that. If you have'nt tried tofu yet, you could start by trying some of the flavoured tofu which you can buy in health shops - eg. barbecue or pizza flavoured etc. - you'll see them in flat transparent packets. Or you could also try Fry's 'chicken' strips and have these with the salad instead.

Do you have a juicer? Its a great way to get some nutrition (and I'm pretty sure that it would be low carb). I often put in a piece of broccoli with a couple of pieces of fruit.

Don't give up the carbs completely, though - your body needs them. Having some wholemeal bread and brown rice will do you no harm.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth. Hope it helps. Good luck with going vegan - you're doing the right thing! Oh, btw - don't forget to take your B12 supplements. I'm taking Holland and Barrett's 'Vegan' supplement, but you can buy 'Veg1' online from the Vegan Society which a lot of vegans recommend as being the best one.

PeakOutput

Your dead right a world without cows would be far better

vaalea

I love the alpro soy products.

anyway, here is a great opportunity, A milk documentary that we can help be released! Very important contribution to the vegan message. Please spread the word. You can donate, or you can prepay for a copy of the movie and other cool stuff.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1730342331/got-the-facts-on-milk-the-milk-documentary

Serendipity99

Hi Valea,
I hope she gets the funding she needs. Would be great to see this one screened.

I love alpro as well. I always buy their milk, cream and desserts. The cream is great for adding to pasta bakes.

Serendipity99

'Truth or Dairy' is a 3-part video about why people should go vegan. If you only watch one of them - watch Part 2. They are about 7 minutes each.

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxkbV5pjcnw
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v436ETAt1ac&feature=related
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4kLvRmszoc&NR=1


And this is a really cool film by the Vegan Society. Its about 30 minutes long: http://www.vegansociety.com/resources/making-the-connection.aspx

Worztron

Serendipity99 wrote: »

'Truth or Dairy' is a 3-part video about why people should go vegan. If you only watch one of them - watch Part 2. They are about 7 minutes each.

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxkbV5pjcnw
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v436ETAt1ac&feature=related
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4kLvRmszoc&NR=1


And this is a really cool film by the Vegan Society. Its about 30 minutes long: http://www.vegansociety.com/resources/making-the-connection.aspx

Very good programs.

Serendipity99

Hi Everybody,
Just to let you know that 'Cork Vegans' are now on Facebook, so don't forget to check us out: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Cork-Vegans/153082988084114?sk=wall


Happy St. Patrick's!!

mystique150

So don't get me wrong, I'm not anti vegan or anti vegetarian. In fact I enjoy vegetarian cooking. However, I have to disagree with some of the comments on the basis of them not being factual.

Serendipity99 wrote: »

-Cows are kept pregnant constantly (through artificial insemination) in order to produce milk all year round.

This is nonsense. Cows are not kept constantly pregnant and if they were constantly pregnant it would not be due to AI. AI is just the method to fertilize the the cow. It is the continuous milking of a cow that makes her produce milk, if the farmer stopped milking her, then she would dry up. Nothing to do with the state of pregnancy.

Serendipity99 wrote: »

-Male calves (babies, essentially) are slaughtered because they are surplus to requirements.

Rarely true in Ireland. Most male calves are left grow up and sold as beef. In some other countries veal is popular but not in Ireland. The only male calves that are slaughtered may be jerseys as they are so small but they do not make the majority of irish calves. Most Irish dairy farms use Fresians and Holsteins which can also be used for beef.

The thing is, dairy isn't all that bad in Ireland. The situation is much worse for cows in the states where factory style dairy farms exist. In some factory farms, there may be a couple of thousand dairy cows that never leave the shed where they are milked. In Ireland, most farms are small and the cows are grazed outside in spring and summer. The dairy industry is also highly regulated that antibiotics do not enter the system. In the US, hormones are allowed. Hormones were banned in Europe in the 90's.

Also mass produced alternatives of any kind may also be problematic. For example, soya industry expansion has been linked to deforestation and GM soya is also a problem for ethical food consumers. The demand for soya amongst other mass produced crops results in the loss of biodiversity as the land is used as a monoculture. Huge corporations such as Monsanto have latched onto the demand for dairy alternatives but really I'm not convinced that the mass production of anything is better than dairy. What do you think?

Ice.

mystique150 wrote: »

This is nonsense. Cows are not kept constantly pregnant and if they were constantly pregnant it would not be due to AI. AI is just the method to fertilize the the cow. It is the continuous milking of a cow that makes her produce milk, if the farmer stopped milking her, then she would dry up. Nothing to do with the state of pregnancy.

The only reason cows produce milk is to feed newborn calves.

mystique150 wrote: »

The dairy industry is also highly regulated that antibiotics do not enter the system.

What do farmers do for example if they get an outbreak of bovine lungworm?

mystique150 wrote: »

Also mass produced alternatives of any kind may also be problematic. For example, soya industry expansion has been linked to deforestation and GM soya is also a problem for ethical food consumers. The demand for soya amongst other mass produced crops results in the loss of biodiversity as the land is used as a monoculture. Huge corporations such as Monsanto have latched onto the demand for dairy alternatives but really I'm not convinced that the mass production of anything is better than dairy. What do you think?

The majority of grain grown is not for humans but for livestock. More and more forests (including the Rainforests) are being cut down to make room for cattle grazing. Its just not sustainable. 250 pounds of beef can be produced on an acre of land compared to 40,000 pounds of potatoes. Which will feed more?

As far as soya goes, the average person probably consumes more of it than a Vegetarian/Vegan as its in most processed foods.

PurpleFistMixer

Athene wrote: »

Sorry if i'm hi-jacking; I have wanted to convert from a veggie diet to a plant based diet for a while now and I've decided that post pancake day is a good time for a trial run so i'm looking for some advice.

FYI: you can make vegan pancakes and they are good!

Serendipity99

I make these a lot and they're better than egg-based pancakes:

http://veganireland.vegaplanet.org/recipes-desserts.php#bananacream

(you might need to scroll down a bit)

Serendipity99

Here is a 5-minute video showing (mainly) the environmental impact of not going vegan: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8q388_go-vegan-for-planet-earth_animals

And here are some answers to questions vegans often get asked: http://www.carnism.com/responses-to-common-questions-about-and-challenges-to-vegetarianism.pdf

spoonbadger

I grew up on a dairy farm, and this thread title really grabbed my attention. I would consider myself very liberal and in general agree with the vegan philosophy, but i would never have gone so far as to say that milk production ranks high in the list of cruel things in this world. I was going to point out how well most cows are treated (yes, i realize that it's still in captivity) compared to many animals, wild/free or otherwise and all the other pro-milk points.

But reading that first post kinda killed my enthusiasm : / All those points are true, and were things i had just kinda accepted from my upbringing as being normal, but you're right; it's definitely not natural. I'm not going to turn vegan anytime soon (yes, i'm lazy and ethically apathetic) but i do agree that it's definitely not right to treat animals like that.

vaalea

spoonbadger wrote: »

I grew up on a dairy farm, ....All those points are true, and were things i had just kinda accepted from my upbringing as being normal, but you're right; it's definitely not natural.

ditto





here is a recent post i made on facebook

Today is mother's day in Ireland. Lets have a thought for our unappreciated "surrogate mothers", the ones whose milk we continue to drink through our adult lives. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6M7nfx1eanE

Serendipity99

I would say that the majority of people in Ireland have no clue as to what is involved in milk production. Why not let them know? Here are some emails - why not send a short email and include a link to one of those milk videos:

RTE Radio 1:
Derek Mooney: mooney@rte.ie
Joe Duffy - Liveline: joe@rte.ie
Pat Kenny: todaypk@rte.ie
Marian Finucane: marian@rte.ie

RTE Television:
Ear to the Ground: eartotheground@agtel.ie

Irish Organisations that promote milk and eggs:
Bord Bia: info@bordbia.ie
National Dairy Counci: info@ndc.ie

Letters to the Editor of Newspapers:
Irish Times: lettersed@irishtimes.com
Irish Independent: independent.letters@independent.ie
The Examiner: editor@examiner.ie

sweet-rasmus

Ear to the Ground, Bord Bia and the National Dairy Council would have no wish to acknowledge what we have to say. Their work very much is based on the dairy industry. The papers and the radio may listen to any concerns though, and might ask Bord Bia etc. for their opinions if they were to present our views.

Serendipity99

Derek Mooney is very keen on animal issues (although mainly wildlife) but I'd say he'd be interested all right.

BnB

Firstly, apologies for dragging up an old thread. I came across this thread a few months back because it was on the front page and I had always meant to come back to reply to it. Only got round to it now.
I fully respect anyone’s decision to be a vege or a vegan. But, please base your beliefs on facts. I was stunned by the number of utter lies being brandied about here as "facts"

I grew up on a dairy farm in the West of Ireland. I'm not farming myself now but a few of my friends are. My comments below relate to the dairy industry in Ireland. (I don't know anything about the industry outside of Ireland)

A few "facts" from the first post :
-Calves separated from their mothers at birth, causing severe stress.
-Male calves (babies, essentially) are slaughtered because they are surplus to requirements.
Calves are usually separated from their mothers at about 3 days old. They are then either bucket fed or reared by another cow. Usually an older cow who isn't a great milker any more would rear 1 or 2 calves). Calves are most certainly NOT "Slaughtered" because they are surplus to requirement. Friesen (the breed of cow most commonly used for milking) heifer calves are obviously very valuable are would be reared by the farmer to eventually become cows. There is pretty much no veal market in Ireland so all other calves are reared to cattle for the beef industry. Now, I can understand that you might have a problem with the beef industry and that's fair enough. But these calves will come from dairy herds, or they will come from sucking herds.

-Cows udders are massive (this is totally unnatural).
-Cows suffer from lameness and mastitis as a result .
Cows do not suffer from Mastitis or lameness as a result of anything but nature. Mastitis can occur when a cow is not milked regularly or milked fully. It might shock you to know, women who are breast feeding can and sometimes do also suffer from mastitis. Suckling cows, (Cows who are used only to rear a calf) are more likely to suffer from mastitis that a dairy cow as they are not "milked" by the calf as regularly as a dairy cow is milked.

Mastitis is a curse on dairy farmers and they are always on the lookout for it. When it occurs is treated straight away, and the milk from a treated cow is withheld from supply until all traces of the mastitis and the treatment are gone from the cows system. Every single milk collection from the farmer is tested by the co-ops and any trace of either will result in a reduced price to the farmer and/or fines.

-Cows are kept pregnant constantly (through artificial insemination) in order to produce milk all year round.

This is just mental - utterly mental.

Firstly, the use of "Artificial Insemination" as a scaremongering term. To explain what artificial insemination is. It is the very same concept as a sperm bank that Humans use. Prime bulls have their semen stored in dry ice. A farmer can pick the best bull from a catalog and when his cow is ovulating ("bulling" is the agricultural term) he calls up the AI company to come out.

Secondly, the cow does not get pregnant any more than she would naturally. A dairy cow will have a calf usually around March - April. She will ovulate again around July at which point, if the farmer is using AI, the AI man will be called. Or if, (as in most cases) the farmer has his own bull, the bull will be in the field with the cows. He will sniff that the cow is bullin, and he'll do his thing.
The cow will continue to be milked usually up until around November, maybe early December. At that point the cow will stop producing milk naturally and will be "dried off for the year. That is it until they calve again the following spring.

In no way or at no time is the situation forced. If you took 100 cows and a few bulls and left them loose on a few hundred acres, the very same cycle would continue ad nauseum. Calf born in spring, Cow comes bulling a few months later , bull does his thing, new calf born next spring.
The only way the cycle is ever tampered with in any way, is that some bigger farmers will have a second round of cows calving in later summer who will continue to give milk until January or February. They have the same 12 month cycle, but it just happens later in the year.
By doing this, the farmer will make sure that he has some cows milking all year round. While his Spring calvers are dry in Winter, his summer calvers will still be milking. And by the time his Summer calvers are dry, his spring calvers will be coming back in.

-Cows all end up in the slaughterhouse when they are not deemed 'useful' any longer.

I cannot argue with that. It is true. But what I would say that the life of a dairy cow is probably the best life of any farm animal. At the minute a fairly average dairy cow would cost you a minimum of €1,500. A very good cow could cost you up to €3,000 and more. Do you honestly think farmers are mistreating these animals. Purely from an economic point of view, they have to be looked after. Also, the quality of what they eat and their lives in general will directly affect the quality of their milk (which is tested and which will decide how a farmer is paid). So dairy cows get the best of grass, the best of meal, and the best of vetinary care.


There was a lot of scaremongering crap in the posts here and in those films.
Rainforests....!!!!! If you can show me how the dairy industry in Ireland caused a single freggin tree in the rainforest to be cut down, then I'll eat by freggin hat.

There are NO antibiotics and/or growth hormones in Irish milk. You just would not get away with it. As I said above, if for any reason a cow has to go on anti-biotics, their milk is not added to the tank for a period of time, and if it was, it would be picked up on by the co-op. Hormones are a huge No-no. You are talking about jail time if you are f**king around with those.


I can honestly see why someone would become a vegetarian. I was on a big commercial pig farm for the first time lately, and I can honestly tell you, it is not a nice place and it certainly makes me think twice about eating pork products since. But dairy farming in Ireland isn't even close to that.

Anyway, I'm not trying to tell anyone that they are wrong to give up dairy. I am just saying that if you are doing so, you should do it based on facts and not a mixture of exaggerations, scaremongering and blatant lies.

Tar.Aldarion

Very good post! A lot of people see things done in other countries and assume it is done here in exactly the same way.

Kruk

BnB wrote: »

I fully respect anyone’s decision to be a vege or a vegan. But, please base your beliefs on facts. I was stunned by the number of utter lies being brandied about here as "facts".

I know you're talking about Ireland but the author of this thread didn't say that she/he refers to Irish dairy industry only. She/he meant general dairy industry (Irish market is only a part of global dairy market). And in general these things are facts proven by dozens of undercover investigations and documentaries. They're not lies. I've seen them myself so I don't think I was lieing myself. The fact that it might look different in Ireland doesn't mean we can "label" them as lies.

I grew up on a dairy farm in the West of Ireland. I'm not farming myself now but a few of my friends are. My comments below relate to the dairy industry in Ireland. (I don't know anything about the industry outside of Ireland)

I had a chance to compare Irish dairy industry with other countries where I lived and yes you're right. Irish cows are treated better than cows in other countries. But this doesn't mean they don't suffer.

First of all, let's straight something out here, the exploitation of any animals (e.g. "because people like the taste of milk") is unethical and painful. Animals don't belong to us and they're not our property. They have feelings, intelligence and they feel pain just as we do (btw. humans are also animals). We have no right to prey on them. Yes, our culture is based on the exploitation of animals, but that doesn't mean that it is appropriate, if you do it a little more gently.

For example:

Calves are usually separated from their mothers at about 3 days old.

That's a part of cruelty too. Studies show that cows are experiencing trauma when their children are taken away. It causes a lot of pain. In addition to physical abuse there is also psychological violence, which is present on the farms.

I cannot argue with that. It is true. But what I would say that the life of a dairy cow is probably the best life of any farm animal. At the minute a fairly average dairy cow would cost you a minimum of €1,500. A very good cow could cost you up to €3,000 and more. Do you honestly think farmers are mistreating these animals. Purely from an economic point of view, they have to be looked after. Also, the quality of what they eat and their lives in general will directly affect the quality of their milk (which is tested and which will decide how a farmer is paid). So dairy cows get the best of grass, the best of meal, and the best of vetinary care.

In theory yes, but in practice it just your assumption. Examples from the world rather suggest that these things don't prevent abuse. I see no reason why Ireland would be unique here. It's not a crime if you don't get caught. At the end of day circus people also used to say they don't harm animals because it wouldn't be good for business.

As for other issues,

Rainforests....!!!!! If you can show me how the dairy industry in Ireland caused a single freggin tree in the rainforest to be cut down, then I'll eat by freggin hat.

As far as I see it didn't refer to Ireland directly. However, in general, meat and dairy industry do affect rainforests. But if you're looking for an Irish example, all dairy farms seriously contribute to global warming and oceanic deadzones (including Irish ones). I recommend to watch PlanEat movie regarding these issue.

I was on a big commercial pig farm for the first time lately, and I can honestly tell you, it is not a nice place and it certainly makes me think twice about eating pork products since. But dairy farming in Ireland isn't even close to that.

For you, maybe if you'd be a cow, you could disagree? It's easy to say what type of suffer is nicer if you're not the one who suffers. I'm not saying that the conditions on meat farms are the same, but the devaluation of the pain of animals on dairy farms isn't okay.

I respect your opinions of course and I don't want to make you feel that I don't. However from my point of view it's all very simple. We just shouldn't use and kill animals as we don't need it to survive. We can easily live without meat and dairy. Actually either meat or dairy are not even healthy. Plant-based diet is very healthy. Not to mention that drinking other species milk is just unnatural. Would you drink a horse's milk too? Or dog's milk? Latte with German Shepherd's milk? Cow's milk is made for calves not for humans and it's very simple to understand. And if you steal it to make money it is cruel to me. Especially if there are so many alternatives out there.

emeraldstar

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Very good post! A lot of people see things done in other countries and assume it is done here in exactly the same way.

Exactly. Good to have some common sense in a thread filled with ignorant scaremongering.

MagicMarker

Personally, I love milk. It's pretty much the greatest thing ever in the world.. ever.

An ex of mine lived on a dairy farm and I can't say that the cows were treated badly at all tbh.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Kruk wrote: »

First of all, let's straight something out here, the exploitation of any animals (e.g. "because people like the taste of milk") is unethical and painful. Animals don't belong to us and they're not our property. They have feelings, intelligence and they feel pain just as we do (btw. humans are also animals). We have no right to prey on them. Yes, our culture is based on the exploitation of animals, but that doesn't mean that it is appropriate, if you do it a little more gently.


I respect your opinions of course and I don't want to make you feel that I don't. However from my point of view it's all very simple. We just shouldn't use and kill animals as we don't need it to survive. We can easily live without meat and dairy. Actually either meat or dairy are not even healthy. Plant-based diet is very healthy. Not to mention that drinking other species milk is just unnatural. Would you drink a horse's milk too? Or dog's milk? Latte with German Shepherd's milk? Cow's milk is made for calves not for humans and it's very simple to understand. And if you steal it to make money it is cruel to me. Especially if there are so many alternatives out there.

See, these are perfectly reasonable points to argue. Not everyone will agree with you, but it's obviously what you and many other vegans believe. So why not rely on these points rather than trying to convince people to become vegan on ethical grounds by implying that people who are living and buying their dairy products in Ireland are supporting cruelties that they aren't? I know you didn't start the thread btw but the person who did wasn't talking as much sense as you so I quoted you instead.

BnB

Kruk wrote: »

I know you're talking about Ireland but the author of this thread didn't say that she/he refers to Irish dairy industry only. She/he meant general dairy industry (Irish market is only a part of global dairy market). And in general these things are facts proven by dozens of undercover investigations and documentaries. They're not lies. I've seen them myself so I don't think I was lieing myself. The fact that it might look different in Ireland doesn't mean we can "label" them as lies.

I do feel that these are being posted up on an Irish Message board by Irish people it is very much implying that they are true to the Irish Market. And I felt the need to point out that a lot of these facts that were being posted did not hold true in Ireland.

I understand what you are saying RE Ireland being part of a global market, but the vast vast majority of dairy products bought in Ireland come from Irish farms.

Kruk wrote: »

In theory yes, but in practice it just your assumption. Examples from the world rather suggest that these things don't prevent abuse. I see no reason why Ireland would be unique here. It's not a crime if you don't get caught. At the end of day circus people also used to say they don't harm animals because it wouldn't be good for business.

I'm not talking in theories. I'm talking facts. I grew up on a dairy farm. I am living now surrounded by dairy farms. I see it and hear about it every day. Lads often spend thousands on vets fees to get a good cow who is sick for whatever reason back to good health.

Kruk wrote: »

I respect your opinions of course and I don't want to make you feel that I don't. However from my point of view it's all very simple. We just shouldn't use and kill animals as we don't need it to survive. We can easily live without meat and dairy. Actually either meat or dairy are not even healthy. Plant-based diet is very healthy. Not to mention that drinking other species milk is just unnatural. Would you drink a horse's milk too? Or dog's milk? Latte with German Shepherd's milk? Cow's milk is made for calves not for humans and it's very simple to understand. And if you steal it to make money it is cruel to me. Especially if there are so many alternatives out there.

That is perfectly reasonable point. But I didn't come on here to argue against anyone being a Vegan. I just wanted to dispute a lot of posts and stuff that I had read in the thread that were not true.

vaalea

Just because every fact isn't true for every farm, in every country, doesn't make it less relevant.

It doesn't even matter what is true or not of the Irish industry, we have to consider the world as a whole with our international trade. Should the irish be the only ones in the world allowed to consume dairy? If the irish are doing it so great, then maybe they should be exporting more dairy to reduce pressure of intensive farming elsewhere? Is dairy and meat even sustainable, even in Ireland? Even if Ireland isn't the worst, is it still acceptable? Is it the best use of resources?

"Ireland relies more on imports of animal feed than any other country in the European Union; quite simply because we do not have enough land to even approach self-sufficiency in the protein supplements required for our animal feed ingredients.The provision of high protein feed is a critical requirement for the Irish beef, pig and poultry sectors. This animal feed is derived from imported GM soybean and GM maize products (corn gluten feed, distillers dried grain), which are primarily sourced from the US, Brazil and Argentina." http://www.gmoinfo.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=1

http://www.quinns.ie/animal-feed-agriculture.htm#Catch_Crops-_Their_Role_in_Irish_Agriculture "Forage crops are now playing an increasingly important role in Irish Agriculture. The feeding of livestock economically and efficiently puts ever greater pressure on producers...."

“The soy crop now covers an area of South America larger than the UK. It is grown to feed chickens, cows and pigs in Europe… Europe imports a third of Brazil's soy harvest.... Converting land for agriculture is a major cause of deforestation in Brazil, Paraguay and Argentina. While some soy fields were created from previously cleared pasture in the savannah grasslands, much of it was newly-cleared forest land.” http://www.foecardiff.co.uk/content/fix-food-chain

Grass-fed only? look even here http://www.independent.ie/farming/dairy/compact-calving-myth-1892535.html they talk about "The emphasis placed on 'grass only' as a complete diet has also resulted in depressed pregnancy rates...The tight grazing of grass -- commonly referred to as 'golf-ball grazing' or 'controlled starvation' -- will maintain a pasture sward of excellent quality. But this system places a lot of pressure on cows and, on a welfare basis, is indeed questionable."

Ireland could be growing real food to feed a greater population than forage crops processed by cows. After seeing these kinds of videos I can't believe that any land cannot be used for human food: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSKSxLHMv9k and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lpq6s34Q67Q

Whether we put them there or not, there are hormones in milk. ""Among the routes of human exposure to estrogens, we are mostly concerned about cow's milk, which contains considerable amounts of female sex hormones," Ganmaa told her audience. Dairy, she added, accounts for 60 percent to 80 percent of estrogens consumed.
Part of the problem seems to be milk from modern dairy farms, where cows are milked about 300 days a year. For much of that time, the cows are pregnant. The later in pregnancy a cow is, the more hormones appear in her milk.
Milk from a cow in the late stage of pregnancy contains up to 33 times as much of a signature estrogen compound (estrone sulfate) than milk from a non-pregnant cow.
In a study of modern milk in Japan, Ganmaa found that it contained 10 times more progesterone, another hormone, than raw milk from Mongolia.
In traditional herding societies like Mongolia, cows are milked for human consumption only five months a year, said Ganmaa, and, if pregnant, only in the early stages. Consequently, levels of hormones in the milk are much lower." http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/2006/12.07/11-dairy.html When you consider that menopausal medication like premarin (estrogen from pregnant horse urine) is animal-based estrogen, these animal hormones are powerful in the human body, unlike those from plants.

And if it is not cows, then it is horses and greyhounds. Many more are born than race, where do they go? And they are retired from racing eventually, where do they go? It’s a culture of treatment towards animals. I imagine there are other reasons that there are no CAFOs in Ireland than simply the irish care more about their animals. Once other countries also didn’t have CAFOs.
“Approximately 20,000 greyhound puppies are registered each year in Ireland” http://www.tipp.ie/sportsandevents/greyhounds.htm where do they go?
“Ireland has a poor record on greyhound welfare. I am not referring solely to the greyhounds used in the sports industry. At the peak of the industry, approximately 25,000 greyhounds were born in Ireland every year. This is a huge number by comparison with the number of births in other countries. Typically, only 80 greyhounds were adopted into Irish homes per year and between 430 and 450 were adopted into European homes at the end of their racing lives. The worrying point is that 14,000 greyhounds disappear annually from the Irish radar. This is and should be a cause of serious concern. Not all the greyhounds to which I refer were used for racing; many were bred outside the industry, allegedly as pets, and were often used for illegal racing. http://www.igb.ie/top/Talking-Dogs/Reviews-And-Releases/Welfare-of-Greyhounds-Bill-2011-Second-Stage2/
Do I believe that the Irish care more about their cows than their greyhounds??

MagicMarker

vaalea wrote: »

Just because every fact isn't true for every farm, in every country, doesn't make it less relevant.

Kinda does actually.

Corsendonk

I listened to a couple of debates on the radio over the years from vegans that were advocating the total ban on animals and animal products. Moncrieff had a lady on last year that wanted us to go off meat and animal products overnight and switch to healthy organic food. You know one of those nice simple ideas that didn't have practical thought obstructing it.

Lets say that happens, what happens to the animals? Do we cull the herds? The cows still need to be milked or it suffers pain. Do we switch to organic vegetables and fruit? Where does the farmer get his farm yard manure seening that we have less animals to produce it but increased demand for farm yard manure?

pconn062

-Calves separated from their mothers at birth, causing severe stress.





Just out of curiosity, how do you know that its causes "severe stress"? Do you have a way of measuring how stressed a cow is? Are these animals intelligent enough to feel stress or any emotion at a point of separation?

sparks24

pconn062 wrote: »

-Calves separated from their mothers at birth, causing severe stress.





Just out of curiosity, how do you know that its causes "severe stress"? Do you have a way of measuring how stressed a cow is? Are these animals intelligent enough to feel stress or any emotion at a point of separation?

So drinking milk is cruel to cows

So does eating vegetables and fruit picked by the poor cruel to people?

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

pconn062 wrote: »

-Calves separated from their mothers at birth, causing severe stress.





Just out of curiosity, how do you know that its causes "severe stress"? Do you have a way of measuring how stressed a cow is? Are these animals intelligent enough to feel stress or any emotion at a point of separation?

If you've ever been within about a half a mile of a cow when she's had her calf taken off her you'll know how distressed they get.