Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

lawred2 · 04-07-2019 12:12pm

ArchXStanton wrote: »

If the EU respected democracy it wouldn't exist in its current form

lol

Professor Moriarty · 04-07-2019 12:12pm

ArchXStanton wrote: »

You didn't answer the question, what happened to the French and Dutch results?

"in the EU, a Yes vote is forever. A No vote is only ever temporary."

I'll answer a question anyway I like. I notice you've ignored my questions too. Yet again, why not answer your own question? Make your own argument. What happened to those results?

ArchXStanton · 04-07-2019 12:14pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I'll answer a question anyway I like. I notice you've ignored my questions too. Yet again, why not answer your own question? Make your own argument. What happened to those results?

Pfft that's some cop out, has the cat got your tongue?

Professor Moriarty · 04-07-2019 12:15pm

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Pfft that's some cop out, has the cat got your tongue?

Hmmm. That all you got? Pity, it would have been good to debate with someone who could make a coherent argument against the EU.

ArchXStanton · 04-07-2019 12:17pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Hmmm. That all you got? Pity, it would have been good to debate with someone who could make a coherent argument against the EU.

Another fella, toys out of the pram... Its a fairly straight forward simple question... What happened to the French and Dutch votes on an EU constitution?

Professor Moriarty · 04-07-2019 12:18pm

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Another fella, toys out of the pram... Its a fairly straight forward simple question... What happened to the French and Dutch votes on an EU constitution?

Why not google it and use the answer to make an argument against the EU?

ArchXStanton · 04-07-2019 12:19pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Why not google it and use the answer to make an argument against the EU?

I'm sensing you're getting uncomfortable..

Professor Moriarty · 04-07-2019 12:20pm

ArchXStanton wrote: »

I'm sensing you're getting uncomfortable..

Bored actually. Bye.

ArchXStanton · 04-07-2019 12:20pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Bored actually. Bye.

Toys everywhere on this thread...

storker · 04-07-2019 12:28pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I'll answer a question anyway I like. I notice you've ignored my questions too. Yet again, why not answer your own question? Make your own argument. What happened to those results?

They meant that the EU constitution wasn't ratified. Are you saying that it's in force despite those votes?

Professor Moriarty · 04-07-2019 12:33pm

storker wrote: »

They meant that the EU constitution wasn't ratified. Are you saying that it's in force despite those votes?

Let them speak for themselves. Even though I'm bored with them now.

I didn't talk about the constitution or it's ratification at all. What is your point?

storker · 04-07-2019 12:36pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Let them speak for themselves. Even though I'm bored with them now.

I didn't talk about the constitution or it's ratification at all. What is your point?

Oops I answered the wrong post. :rolleyes: Never mind.

Panrich · 04-07-2019 1:07pm

It’s amusing to see fans of Putin at the forefront of complaints against democracy within the EU.

knipex · 04-07-2019 1:28pm

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Its not complicated at all. The people voted to leave so leave in March and deal with the fallout (if any) after.

We voted no to Lisbon so the answer is no, end of. It is the EU who drags their feet on this stuff, there are plenty of examples

So we shoudl get one vote on everything and then that's it ???

Once vote for government and that's it for ever with by elections on retirement or death of individual td's ?

Once vote for your council ?

One vote on a constitution then no referendums except to add stuff and once in its stays in ?

ZeitgeistGlee · 04-07-2019 1:31pm

Panrich wrote: »

It’s amusing to see fans of Putin at the forefront of complaints against democracy within the EU.

Yep, they roar about how "democracy" must be respected but deride the notion of referenda in the face of changed circumstances, and then verbally fellate blatantly antidemocratic dictators like Putin or wannabes like Trump as the pinnacle of leadership. It's hilarious. :rolleyes:

FrancieBrady · 04-07-2019 1:35pm

Can't agree among themselves to leave, blame everybody else, paralyse their own governance and cannot agree to put it back to the people.

Democracy yeh!!

Berserker · 04-07-2019 1:36pm

knipex wrote: »

So we shoudl get one vote on everything and then that's it ???

Of course not but should people be told "wrong answer, try again" when the result of the vote is not as expected? That's what the EU did with Ireland. Most of the pro-EU folk on here will agree with me on that.

FrancieBrady · 04-07-2019 1:40pm

Berserker wrote: »

Of course not but should people be told "wrong answer, try again" when the result of the vote is as expected? That's what the EU did with Ireland. Most of the pro-EU folk on here will agree with me on that.

Nobody said 'wrong answer'.

We sought changes, got them and we voted again.

Brexit - People voted on something that had a severe lack of clarity (See Farage et al stating it would not be necessary or desirable to leave the SM etc) and parliament has paralysed itself over it while the EU wait.

Dytalus · 04-07-2019 1:40pm

Berserker wrote: »

Of course not but should people be told "wrong answer, try again" when the result of the vote is as expected? That's what the EU did with Ireland. Most of the pro-EU folk on here will agree with me on that.

Then they would be wrong.

Ireland: Votes no to the Nice Treaty.
EU: "Why did you vote no? We talked over this beforehand."
Ireland: "A lot of us have problems with X, Y, and Z. Please to be fixing them."
EU: "Okay. We've changed the treaty and have legally binding documents which address your concerns. Are you happy with the new treaty?"
Ireland: "Yes, thank you. You are a good friend, Europe."

The same happened with Lisbon as well. Neither Nice 2.0, nor Lisbon 2.0, were reruns of the same treaty.

knipex · 04-07-2019 1:42pm

Kidchameleon wrote: »

If the EU are so perfect then why do the British want to leave? Why is there growing resentment towards the union?

No one said that the EU was perfect.

Kidchameleon wrote: »

There are plenty of things the EU has done delay Brexit. For example the extortionate divorce bill, allowing an extension until October 31st, the blatant opposition to Brexit from top EU officials, I could go on and on.

The EU cannot stop Brexit, they cannot delay Brexit, they cannot do anything about Brexit. Only the UK can request a delay, only the UK can stop the process.

EU officials are allowed to have opinions and to my knowledge are allowed to express them.

The so called "Divorce Bill" was agreed by the UK. Not imposed on them.

knipex · 04-07-2019 1:46pm

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Thats the thing, the majority of Brits dont want amything from the EU, it is the political elites who are dragging their heals.

The majority of Brits including the Elites have no idea what they get from the EU.

They have no idea of the impact of loosing access to trade agreements, transport agreements etc currently agreed between EU members and the EU and other states. Its not just the EU markets they are loosing its all the markets they currently trade with due to the EU trade agreements.

All their regulatory, safety, environmental standards are all based on EU standards and agreements. Once Brexit happens these are gone..

Thats just the obvious stuff, its the non obvious stuff that going to bite everyone in the ass.

FrancieBrady · 04-07-2019 1:48pm

knipex wrote: »

No one said that the EU was perfect.

The EU cannot stop Brexit, they cannot delay Brexit, they cannot do anything about Brexit. Only the UK can request a delay, only the UK can stop the process.

EU officials are allowed to have opinions and to my knowledge are allowed to express them.

The so called "Divorce Bill" was agreed by the UK. Not imposed on them.

As was the deal...which only Britain can ratify so that everyone can proceed to the next stage.

We are all waiting...

Berserker · 04-07-2019 1:55pm

Dytalus wrote: »

Then they would be wrong.

Ireland: Votes no to the Nice Treaty.
EU: "Why did you vote no? We talked over this beforehand."
Ireland: "A lot of us have problems with X, Y, and Z. Please to be fixing them."
EU: "Okay. We've changed the treaty and have legally binding documents which address your concerns. Are you happy with the new treaty?"
Ireland: "Yes, thank you. You are a good friend, Europe."

The same happened with Lisbon as well. Neither Nice 2.0, nor Lisbon 2.0, were reruns of the same treaty.

I'm laughing. What percentage of voters knew what x,y and z were? They were told to vote again and come back with the correct response in the second referendum and they did exactly that. How good a friend were Europe when Ireland was in financial trouble?

Strumms · 04-07-2019 2:03pm

There will be a groundswell now of the right, who now that the party and high fives, and back slapping have all stopped, the reality and hangover is sinking in, it’s hanging over them the reality of what they voted for and how it will impact them for decades. Both from a social and economic point of view. The blame game will start...having CHOSEN to exit Europe they complain they didn’t get the exit they WANTED. Ohhh well.

Sleepy · 04-07-2019 2:05pm

At this point it's probably best to let Brexit happen. The idiots in favour of it are the very ones who'll suffer most from it and, tbh, at this stage they probably deserve the pain that's coming to them.

Once they've lost Scotland and Northern Ireland and suffered a decade of recession, they can apply to re-join the EU under far less favourable terms than they have now.

The alternative (a second referendum that votes to remain) would no doubt lead to civil war as the idiots line up behind Farage's ideology while he ****s off abroad.

dudara · 04-07-2019 2:21pm

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Another fella, toys out of the pram... Its a fairly straight forward simple question... What happened to the French and Dutch votes on an EU constitution?

ArchXStanton wrote: »

I'm sensing you're getting uncomfortable..

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Toys everywhere on this thread...

ArchXStanton wrote: »

And there we have it... Watch out for the flying rattler... Wahhh

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Pfft that's some cop out, has the cat got your tongue?

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Aye I see you're still pontificating on here after allthese years...I'd put money on it you'll throw your toys out of the pram in the next few posts

I'm well versed in how the EU operates, I was a no campaigner here during the Lisbon revote

You need to seriously up your standard of response. Otherwise I will assume that your repeated references to toys and prams is intended to inflame or troll other posters.

dudara

FrancieBrady · 04-07-2019 2:25pm

Berserker wrote: »

I'm laughing. What percentage of voters knew what x,y and z were? They were told to vote again and come back with the correct response in the second referendum and they did exactly that. How good a friend were Europe when Ireland was in financial trouble?

Can you link to where they were 'told' anything?

We had every right to come back the 2nd time with a No vote too btw. I suppose you have some sensationalist conspiracy theory about that as well.

ancapailldorcha · 04-07-2019 2:41pm

Sleepy wrote: »

At this point it's probably best to let Brexit happen. The idiots in favour of it are the very ones who'll suffer most from it and, tbh, at this stage they probably deserve the pain that's coming to them.

Once they've lost Scotland and Northern Ireland and suffered a decade of recession, they can apply to re-join the EU under far less favourable terms than they have now.

The alternative (a second referendum that votes to remain) would no doubt lead to civil war as the idiots line up behind Farage's ideology while he ****s off abroad.

It'll be the working classes that suffer most. Brexit is an attempt to foist more globalisation upon the UK's working classes, not less. Sure, the pensioners and oligarchs will be fine but it's the next generation who'll suffer most as they'll have their life chances decimated while losing the chance to live and work abroad. Then there's the millions of EU migrants living in the UK to consider including several Irish people.

The Schadenfreude is tempting, God knows it is but real people who didn't vote for this stupidity and often couldn't vote either way will suffer. If Brexit can't be stopped then I hope the Scots and Northern Irish can extricate themselves from this dead union which is slowly sinking.

source · 04-07-2019 2:58pm

Berserker wrote: »

I'm laughing. What percentage of voters knew what x,y and z were? They were told to vote again and come back with the correct response in the second referendum and they did exactly that. How good a friend were Europe when Ireland was in financial trouble?

Well I’d say a fair percentage knew what they were voting for.

The first Lisbon Treaty referendum failed marginally on a 53% turn out, 53.2% against 46.42% for. The second referendum, with a 59% turnout resulted in 67.13% in favour and 32.87% against, showing a clear majority.

I would say from those figures that the people knew exactly what they were voting for, and understood the changes in the text provided to have a swing of over 20% in the difference between the 2 votes….not an insignificant figure.

The Nice treaty was a similar affair with the initial turnout only being 34.79%, and the referendum being rejected by 53.87% to 46.13%. The second referendum saw the turnout jump to 49.17% with 62.89% voting yes and 37.11% voting no, again another clear majority from an initial marginal defeat.

Simply looking at the numbers involved in both votes shows that the narrative that the electorate didn’t understand what they were voting on is blatantly incorrect.

Now can we please drop the myths that have grown up surrounding these votes?

ArchXStanton · 04-07-2019 3:23pm

Berserker wrote: »

I'm laughing. What percentage of voters knew what x,y and z were? They were told to vote again and come back with the correct response in the second referendum and they did exactly that. How good a friend were Europe when Ireland was in financial trouble?

In the Words of Big JC... Jean Claude Juncker

"there can be no democratic choice against the European treaties"

"If it's a Yes, we will say 'on we go', and if it's a No we will say 'we continue'."

"We decide on something, leave it lying around and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back."

Sounds par for the course with the EU...

ArchXStanton · 04-07-2019 3:27pm

source wrote: »

Well I’d say a fair percentage knew what they were voting for.

The first Lisbon Treaty referendum failed marginally on a 53% turn out, 53.2% against 46.42% for. The second referendum, with a 59% turnout resulted in 67.13% in favour and 32.87% against, showing a clear majority.

I would say from those figures that the people knew exactly what they were voting for, and understood the changes in the text provided to have a swing of over 20% in the difference between the 2 votes….not an insignificant figure.

The Nice treaty was a similar affair with the initial turnout only being 34.79%, and the referendum being rejected by 53.87% to 46.13%. The second referendum saw the turnout jump to 49.17% with 62.89% voting yes and 37.11% voting no, again another clear majority from an initial marginal defeat.

Simply looking at the numbers involved in both votes shows that the narrative that the electorate didn’t understand what they were voting on is blatantly incorrect.

Now can we please drop the myths that have grown up surrounding these votes?

Fairly dubious democracy you got going on there..

https://m.imgur.com/gallery/bZnoegk

storker · 04-07-2019 3:32pm

Berserker wrote: »

I'm laughing. What percentage of voters knew what x,y and z were?

A hell of a higher percentage than knew what x, y and z were in the Brexit referendum.

dudara · 04-07-2019 3:42pm

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Fairly dubious democracy you got going on there..

https://m.imgur.com/gallery/bZnoegk

That image made me go do some research as I hadn’t been aware of the result of, say the the French referendum.

Following the French No result, there were various political changes, and Sarkozy was elected President in 2007. From Wikipedia ...

Amongst his pledges was a re-negotiation and ratification of a mini-treaty without a referendum. Eventually, the new version of the text, the Lisbon Treaty, was voted by the Parliament.

So to say that the results of the French referendum were “Ignored” is incorrect, and actually IMO shows the bias of the book’s author.

kunst nugget · 04-07-2019 3:44pm

dudara wrote: »

That image made me go do some research as I hadn’t been aware of the result of, say the the French referendum.

Following the French No result, there were various political changes, and Sarkozy was elected President in 2007. From Wikipedia ...

So to say that the results of the French referendum were “Ignored” is incorrect, and actually IMO shows the bias of the book’s author.

The Constitution was dropped after the French and Dutch referendums and they concentrated on amending existing treaties.

dudara · 04-07-2019 3:45pm

^Thanks, am actually learning a good bit through this discussion.

ArchXStanton · 04-07-2019 3:50pm

dudara wrote: »

That image made me go do some research as I hadn’t been aware of the result of, say the the French referendum.

Following the French No result, there were various political changes, and Sarkozy was elected President in 2007. From Wikipedia ...

So to say that the results of the French referendum were “Ignored” is incorrect, and actually IMO shows the bias of the book’s author.

Subsequent referendums in 5 other countries were cancelled when they seen the French and Dutch results, it came back as the Lisbon treaty were it was ratified in most countries(apart from Ireland were we got to vote on it.. And we all know what happened there) the EU turned back to Monnet style behind the scenes further integration... You'll notice a trend with the EU from that image, anything that goes against it is either ignored or made to vote again

What's laughable is it masquerades as some world leader in democracy and even has the neck to lecture others about it.

I can remember quite well how they were frothing at the mouth over Mugabe and his one man candidate election... Meanwhile back in Ireland the plebs had to vote again on Lisbon..

04-07-2019 3:52pm

Dytalus wrote: »

Then they would be wrong.

Ireland: Votes no to the Nice Treaty.
EU: "Why did you vote no? We talked over this beforehand."
Ireland: "A lot of us have problems with X, Y, and Z. Please to be fixing them."
EU: "Okay. We've changed the treaty and have legally binding documents which address your concerns. Are you happy with the new treaty?"
Ireland: "Yes, thank you. You are a good friend, Europe."

The same happened with Lisbon as well. Neither Nice 2.0, nor Lisbon 2.0, were reruns of the same treaty.

Actually Lisbonwent more like this.

Ireland; we voted no to Lisbon becaus we don’t want abortions and we don’t want to be forced to join a European army.

Eu: what the **** are you on about? That has nothing to do with the Lisbon treaty.

Ireland: oh, ok. So we don’t look stupid can we change it and vote again?

Eu: ok, we’ll add some pointless words in there and you tell everyone it will bring jobs and prosperity.

Ireland: done

source · 04-07-2019 3:52pm

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Fairly dubious democracy you got going on there..

https://m.imgur.com/gallery/bZnoegk

Nothing dubious about it, just simple facts and figures.

FrancieBrady · 04-07-2019 3:55pm

Aegir wrote: »

Actually Lisbonwent more like this.

Ireland; we voted no to Lisbon becaus we don’t want abortions and we don’t want to be forced to join a European army.

Eu: what the **** are you on about? That has nothing to do with the Lisbon treaty.

Ireland: oh, ok. So we don’t look stupid can we change it and vote again?

Eu: ok, we’ll add some pointless words in there and you tell everyone it will bring jobs and prosperity.

Ireland: done

Your absolutely arrogant snivelling derision about this country fully exposed in your contributions to this thread.

04-07-2019 3:59pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Your absolutely arrogant snivelling derision about this country fully exposed in your contributions to this thread.

Maybe the people who voted against Lisbon were thick *****?

What do you think?

ArchXStanton · 04-07-2019 3:59pm

source wrote: »

Nothing dubious about it, just simple facts and figures.

You might have a point if every referendum was run twice... Just to make sure like, or what's next a best of 3? How about digging up referendums from 20 years ago

Funny how these revotes only happen when the EU doesn't get the desired result... When they do then it's case closed, never to be revisited, its dubious democracy and well they know it, I'm glad it's coming back to bite them, will we ever forget Sarkozy "the Irish must vote again!". That's some neck in fairness and was a sign of things to come..

FrancieBrady · 04-07-2019 4:00pm

ArchXStanton wrote: »

You might have a point if every referendum was run twice... Just to make sure like, or what's next a best of 3? How about digging up referendums from 20 years ago

Funny how these revotes only happen when the EU doesn't get the desired result... When they do then it's case closed, never to be revisited, its dubious democracy and well they know it, I'm glad it's coming back to bite them, will we ever forget Sarkozy "the Irish must vote again!". That's some neck in fairness and was a sign of things to come..

Sorry...run this by me again....what is undemocratic about having a vote?

FrancieBrady · 04-07-2019 4:02pm

Aegir wrote: »

Maybe the people who voted against Lisbon were thick *****?

What do you think?

What?

Could you ever deal with the reality about what happened and not some invented fiction from a perpetually anti Irish fantasist?

ArchXStanton · 04-07-2019 4:03pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Can you link to where they were 'told' anything?

We had every right to come back the 2nd time with a No vote too btw. I suppose you have some sensationalist conspiracy theory about that as well.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland-will-have-to-vote-again-on-lisbon-says-sarkozy-1.945091%3fmode=amp

storker · 04-07-2019 4:03pm

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Subsequent referendums in 5 other countries were cancelled when they

I can remember quite well how they were frothing at the mouth over Mugabe and his one man candidate election... Meanwhile back in Ireland the plebs had to vote again on Lisbon..

I hope you find a matching sense of perspective donor soon; there's a world of difference between re-running an referendum and rigging an election so it has a single candidate. For one thing, in the EU referendums people always had the choice of voting "No" again. It's not that difficult, just walk in the polling station as per normal and put the tick in a different box. Hardly fraught with difficulty, is it? And if asked to vote again, just say no again. But we voted yes, because the second time around we had a better understanding of what we were voting for, which is exactly the reason why the Brexiteers are so firmly set against a second referendum.

It's back to the old question of "when the the facts change, I change my mind, what do you do?" Of course, when if comes to Brexiteers, we know what the answer to that is.

ArchXStanton · 04-07-2019 4:05pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Sorry...run this by me again....what is undemocratic about having a vote?

Nothing as long as its respected, like Cowen told us it would be on the first vote.... Only to be summoned to the EU Council were he looked like a whipped spaniel..

04-07-2019 4:07pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What?

Could you ever deal with the reality about what happened and not some invented fiction from a perpetually anti Irish fantasist?

Aah poor Francie.

He can give it, but goes crying to mummy when the truth comes back and hits him right between the eyes.

What did I post that was wrong? The Irish were told to vote against Lisbon because it would bring in abortion and force Ireland to join an Eu army.

Those were simple lies, mainly told by Sinn Fein.

I accept that most Sinn Fein followers are thick *****, but would you agree that all the people who voted against Lisbon were thick *****, simpletons or just useful idiots?

FrancieBrady · 04-07-2019 4:08pm

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Nothing as long as its respected, like Cowen told us it would be on the first vote.... Only to be summoned to the EU Council were he looked like a whipped spaniel..

That is your perception.
What I seen was an EU that wanted to advance, we had concerns which were addressed and we voted again in a referendum where we could have easily voted against.

Unless you have evidence of people being led to polling booths at gunpoint I don't see how that is not democracy.

ArchXStanton · 04-07-2019 4:15pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That is your perception.
What I seen was an EU that wanted to advance, we had concerns which were addressed and we voted again in a referendum where we could have easily voted against.

Unless you have evidence of people being led to polling booths at gunpoint I don't see how that is not democracy.

Aye the "concessions" that were tacked on and used as an excuse for a revote while the bulk of the treaty remained... "vote yes for jobs!" the proverbial golden carrot on a stick to try sway voters... Its actually a bit sick

FrancieBrady · 04-07-2019 4:17pm

Aegir wrote: »

Aah poor Francie.

He can give it, but goes crying to mummy when the truth comes back and hits him right between the eyes.

What did I post that was wrong? The Irish were told to vote against Lisbon because it would bring in abortion and force Ireland to join an Eu army.

Those were simple lies, mainly told by Sinn Fein.

I accept that most Sinn Fein followers are thick *****, but would you agree that all the people who voted against Lisbon were thick *****, simpletons or just useful idiots?

Your usual anti Irish bile again.

The concerns that were addressed in the second Lisbon vote were:

1.The possibility that Ireland would lose its member in the European
Commission
2. Its military neutrality,
4. Control over taxation
5. Concerns about ethical and social issues.

All legitimate concerns for anybody to have.

Nobody 'told' anybody anything. Different political parties campaigned on issues as they do in every election under the sun.

Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

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