Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

Kidchameleon

Tell me how wrote: »

Why do you want the EU to disband?

All representatives are voted in.
Since it's inception, prosperity for all countries involved has increased.
Since it's inception, Europe has by and large been a much less dangerous place in terms of armed conflict.
Citizens have benefitted from free movement.
Businesses have benefitted from the single market.
Environmental issues have been targeted more than if all countries were doing so individually.

Why do you think we'd be better off without it?

None of the advantages you list are worth the price of democracy. You say representatives are voted in but they are powerless. The EU is pushing for more power, they have tried to bring in a president similar to the US president (and they will try again), they want an army, they insist on approving our budgets, have a national anthem, tell us how long candle wicks should be ffs. The EU is pushing to become the United States of Europe. The last thing the world needs is another US.


No thanks, give us back the old roads and f*ck right off EU

Kidchameleon

Dytalus wrote: »

People said that when the result first came in. Since then the call for countries to have their own exits has dropped dramatically.

• Italy? Totally dropped from the agenda. They might try to break out of the Euro but that doesn't have much in the way of momentum. Salvini, La Liga, and the Five Star movement have no plans to leave the block altogether.
• Marine Le Pen in France has totally dropped her euro referendum in favour of a "europe of nations" - which is essentially a call for EU reform and not break up.
• The Freedom Party in Austria abandoned their own euro-zone referendum, and have made no calls or motions towards their own break away.
• And the guy calling for it in the Netherlands got hammered at the next elections for it.

And, of course our own brand: Irexit had a hilariously poor performance in the recent elections.

So...when are the dominoes supposed to start falling?

And this is all part of the puppet show that the EU is performing with Britain, to dissuade any more countries from leaving. Wait till you see it, when Britain leaves and World War 3 doesn't break out and Britain starts to prosper even more, others heads will turn. The bricks are falling off.

Dytalus

Kidchameleon wrote: »

You say representatives are voted in but they are powerless.

No EU directive or regulation can be made without the approval of our elected representatives in Parliament.

Your lack of understanding how the EU functions does not turn it into the monster you think it is.

Kidchameleon wrote: »

And this is all part of the puppet show that the EU is performing with Britain, to dissuade any more countries from leaving. Wait till you see it, when Britain leaves and World War 3 doesn't break out and Britain starts to prosper even more, others heads will turn. The bricks are falling off.

"When" is doing some incredibly heavy lifting there. I think you mean something more along the lines of:

"If Britain leaves and WW3 doesn't break out and if Britain starts to prosper more against every suggested plausible outcome made by economists and industry professionals and experts, both within the UK and outside it."

kunst nugget

Kidchameleon wrote: »

No thanks, give us back the old roads and f*ck right off EU

Seriously, what do you think is going to happen to a tiny country like Ireland in the event of the break up of the EU?

Boggles

Kidchameleon wrote: »

No thanks, give us back the old roads and f*ck right off EU

Catchy enough campaign slogan.

ancapailldorcha

Kidchameleon wrote: »

It wont be the only one for long. What you are seeing is the turning of the tide.

Please. Be serious. Brexit is the greatest piece of pro-EU propaganda that could ever be envisaged.

FrancieBrady

Kidchameleon wrote: »

And this is all part of the puppet show that the EU is performing with Britain, to dissuade any more countries from leaving. Wait till you see it, when Britain leaves and World War 3 doesn't break out and Britain starts to prosper even more, others heads will turn. The bricks are falling off.

But Britain won't leave...odds are that they (that is Britain) will look for another extension to navel gaze for another while.
Politicians are a reflection of society and the fact is, despite all the 'go it alone' bluster, Britain is afraid to leave.

fly_agaric

"The price of democracy"..."the turning of the tide"

Stirring stuff.
Perhaps someone can zombie up Churchill to fight the Nazis...err, sorry the EU.
There's a few in the UK parliament who look like they might know a bit about alchemy & weird science.

ancapailldorcha

FrancieBrady wrote: »

But Britain won't leave...odds are that they (that is Britain) will look for another extension to navel gaze for another while.
Politicians are a reflection of society and the fact is, despite all the 'go it alone' bluster, Britain is afraid to leave.

The EU will see through this though. They'll demand concessions for an extension, either a People's Vote or a general election.

lawred2

lawred2 wrote: »

Well when you choose to ignore evidence and instead believe proven lies then you are more than likely nothing other than a thick cnut

Boggles wrote: »

A lot of them were though, and a lot of them were just simpletons who would believe anything as long as it was written on the side of a bus

InTheShadows wrote: »

Look you've already called them thick c*unts and now simpletons. Sit down and think about that.

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Bit harsh. Useful idiots.

Can we compromise and call them thick-cúnt simpletons who are useful idiots?

fly_agaric

fly_agaric wrote: »

Stirring stuff.
Perhaps someone can zombie up Churchill to fight the Nazis...err, sorry the EU.
There's a few in the UK parliament who look like they might know a bit about alchemy & weird science.

Already taken

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76cHROrZFNc

FrancieBrady

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The EU will see through this though. They'll demand concessions for an extension, either a People's Vote or a general election.

Yes...i.e. Britain's position is getting weaker and weaker. They could close up shop tomorrow and leave...nothing in the wide world stopping that nor has been since first deadline.
But they are too scared to leave without a deal that suits them and too arrogant to realise that the world no longer works that way.

Kidchameleon

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The EU will see through this though. They'll demand concessions for an extension, either a People's Vote or a general election.

Like Lisbon 2 or Nice 2? The EU only have themselves to blame for the prospect of Britain leaving and the spread of anti EU sentiment. If the original referendum is ignored and another run, how is it democracy?

source

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Like Lisbon 2 or Nice 2? The EU only have themselves to blame for the prospect of Britain leaving and the spread of anti EU sentiment. If the original referendum is ignored and another run, how is it democracy?

You mean the 2 occasions where Ireland voted down the treaties in a referendum, there were changes made to suit us and we voted again on the altered treaties?

I certainly do count that as democracy, in fact its the very definition of democracy. As is the UK having a second referendum on leaving the UK.

Stephen15

joe40 wrote: »

What immigrants would that be. EU immigrants that are still in Britain because Britain wants the same rights for their citizens in the EU.
Or non EU immigrants which have nothing to do with Brexit.
It is non sensical arguments like this which caused Brexit in the first place.
I don't mind a different opinion but one based on facts

Most working class people were sold on the basis that Brexit would mean an end to immigration both EU and non EU. I know full well about the difference between EU and non-EU immigration but many people don't. Brexit is going to be a big mistake with the Tories who'll probably let even more third world migrants instead of EU immigrants.

FrancieBrady

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Like Lisbon 2 or Nice 2? The EU only have themselves to blame for the prospect of Britain leaving and the spread of anti EU sentiment. If the original referendum is ignored and another run, how is it democracy?

This referring to the EU as some 'other' entity. Britain, like Ireland, like Germany, like France, has been the EU for as long as they have been in it.

Stop the Daily Mail type conspiracy theories. The British led the EU just as much as anyone did.

ancapailldorcha

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Like Lisbon 2 or Nice 2? The EU only have themselves to blame for the prospect of Britain leaving and the spread of anti EU sentiment. If the original referendum is ignored and another run, how is it democracy?

The original referendum mandate was ignored with the second referendum in 2016 or does "undemocratic" just mean plebiscites you disagree with.

lawred2

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Bit harsh. Useful idiots.

You have to be a thick cnut to become such a useful idiot though

Auguste Comte

Kidchameleon wrote: »

If the original referendum is ignored and another run, how is it democracy?

In the context of brexit a second referendum would be proper democracy. In the original vote the people were sold a pup. They were lied to about what brexit is. I mean brexit means brexit ffs.

Coming to a free trade agreement with the EU should be "one of the easiest in human history.' Liam Fox, July 2017

The day after we vote to leave, we hold all the cards and we can choose the path we want.' Michael Gove, April 2016

‘I believe that we can get a free trade and customs agreement concluded before March 2019’. David Davis, January 2017

“Without our EU budget contributions, we could give everyone a 60 per cent council tax cut.” Daniel Hannan, September 2015

The British government listened to the people in what was a non binding vote, went to their partners in Europe and negotiated the best deal they could.

Now that the people actually know what brexit looks like the government should hold a binding vote, the deal, no deal or no brexit.

Boggles

Kidchameleon wrote: »

If the original referendum is ignored and another run, how is it democracy?

I don't necessarily disagree with your point.

But It's democracy essentially that is preventing them from leaving.

Boggles

Auguste Comte wrote: »

Now that the people actually know what brexit looks like the government should hold a binding vote, the deal, no deal or no brexit.

The Deal is 600 pages long, do people know what it looks like? I'm not so sure.

I don't think they have a clue what a no deal brexit looks like either.

Tell me how

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Like Lisbon 2 or Nice 2? The EU only have themselves to blame for the prospect of Britain leaving and the spread of anti EU sentiment. If the original referendum is ignored and another run, how is it democracy?

It hasn't been ignored, its gotten nothing but attention for 3 years. The negotiated deal was brought to parliament for ratification 3 times.

joe40

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Like Lisbon 2 or Nice 2? The EU only have themselves to blame for the prospect of Britain leaving and the spread of anti EU sentiment. If the original referendum is ignored and another run, how is it democracy?

Whether or not to hold a second referendum is totally up to Britain. It will be their choice alone.

Auguste Comte

Boggles wrote: »

The Deal is 600 pages long, do people know what it looks like? I'm not so sure.

I don't think they have a clue what a no deal brexit looks like either.

I take your point alright but at least some of the unicorns could be introduced to the humain killer and taken out of the equation.

The information is all there and a more honest debate should be possible.

steddyeddy

Berserker wrote: »

You do realise that there are a number of countries around the world who are not in the EU and they are doing very well for themselves? The UK can sign new trade deals, the US, Canada & Aus are standing in the wings already and every country in the world will want to do business with them given the size of their economy. Take a look at the non-EU countries in central Europe and Scandanavia, as examples. What do you make of them?

Yes of course there are. Can you name some that aren't in some sort of single market though or name some that operate on WTO rules?

Also it's often repeated that not everyone is in the EU. This is very true, but there's a lot of countries not in the EU but have a trade deal with the EU. A lot of senior Brexiters and ordinary voters seem to think that no deal would be fine for the UK.

Another important fact that's not often discussed is the geographical realities of trade. The UK, like all other countries trades more with countries that are closer to it. It costs more money to import and export things from far away so making trade deals with Japan, China and Australia may incur significant cost that negate the benefit of any free trade deal.

Boggles

Auguste Comte wrote: »

The information is all there and a more honest debate should be possible.

It should be, but in reality it probably won't.

The "bad points" of the deal will be magnified and embellished.

He who shouts loudest etc.

May's mantra for the last election and up until quite recently was "No Deal is better than a bad deal", now they got a slight bit of a kicking but were still returned as the largest party.

I don't see a clear route to a 2nd referendum and I personally don't think a result either way for Britain will be great for them or the EU and more importantly us going forward, unless it is by a hefty margin.

Things are getting worse, they are going to put an absolute fúcking clown in charge in the next couple of weeks, all bets are off.

The World economy is masking the residual effects of a looming Brexit, all though the UK economy is forecast to slow down and maybe even bottom out, something like that could focus the minds.

Either way it is a clusterfúck of epic proportions and there seems to be an air of, especially from our crowd "Ah sure it will sort itself out".

People are in for some shock if they crash out Halloween night.

First Up

steddyeddy wrote:

Another important fact that's not often discussed is the geographical realities of trade. The UK, like all other countries trades more with countries that are closer to it. It costs more money to import and export things from far away so making trade deals with Japan, China and Australia may incur significant cost that negate the benefit of any free trade deal.

Countries don't "trade" with each other; people and companies do. Business is predominantly a private sector activity in which both sellers and buyers have a choice.

A trade "deal" with a country does not guarantee business will happen; it simply sets the framework within which companies and individuals negotiate and compete.

All the UK government can do is try to negotiate the terms for market access. After that its up to individual companies to seek out market opportunities and beat off the competition. Thats usually easier in markets close by than on the other side of the planet.

Its easier still when you have unfettered access to a market - for example like a 27 country single market.

Spanish Eyes

Boggles wrote: »

It should be, but in reality it probably won't.

The "bad points" of the deal will be magnified and embellished.

He who shouts loudest etc.

May's mantra for the last election and up until quite recently was "No Deal is better than a bad deal", now they got a slight bit of a kicking but were still returned as the largest party.

I don't see a clear route to a 2nd referendum and I personally don't think a result either way for Britain will be great for them or the EU and more importantly us going forward, unless it is by a hefty margin.

Things are getting worse, they are going to put an absolute fúcking clown in charge in the next couple of weeks, all bets are off.

The World economy is masking the residual effects of a looming Brexit, all though the UK economy is forecast to slow down and maybe even bottom out, something like that could focus the minds.

Either way it is a clusterfúck of epic proportions and there seems to be an air of, especially from our crowd "Ah sure it will sort itself out".

People are in for some shock if they crash out Halloween night.

The hubris of the Brexit crowd including the incumbent idiot for PM is just staggering.

But the last three years were worth it to show how wonderful Britain will be post Brexit, yeah right.

Why have they not gone already? That is the question that no one on the Brexit side can answer. I do realise that Parliament blocked No Deal and the WA so far, but honestly going out by default on 31/10 is actually spiting Parliament in my view.

The pro Brexit media, a lame Labour Party (what exactly is their policy on Brexit, no one really knows) and an electoral system that actually discourages any real involvement in politics are some of the issues. But that is from my/our perspective of course.

Doesn't stop me from saying they are Class A idiots though.

Led by Donkeys is right (twitter).

steddyeddy

steddyeddy wrote: »

Another important fact that's not often discussed is the geographical realities of trade. The UK, like all other countries trades more with countries that are closer to it. It costs more money to import and export things from far away so making trade deals with Japan, China and Australia may incur significant cost that negate the benefit of any free trade deal.

This. Blair made much of this exact point in an interview recently. He was acerbic in his dismissal of the Brexiteers claiming British firms would get replacement trade for lost EU trade on... the far side of the planet. Snakeoil salesmen duping a whole nation.

source

source wrote: »

You mean the 2 occasions where Ireland voted down the treaties in a referendum, there were changes made to suit us and we voted again on the altered treaties

Indeed.

When the highly educated Irish electorate voted against a treaty because it meant forced abortions and conscription in to an Eu army.