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Harvey Weinstein and #MeToo/sexual misconduct scandals

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    #122
    johnny_ultimate
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 29,094 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    __..__ wrote: »
    The ones who left them speaking in their own, because they might get punished career wise are just scum.

    Nope.

    Here's how serial enablers get away with: they threaten, bully and build structures to insulate them from repercussions. In the Harvey Weinstein case, the allegations appear to show all that to be the case - ranging from legal settlements with NDAs; victims in vulnerable places in their careers; and even it seems planted tabloid stories to discredit those who did try to speak up. This creates, understandably, an atmosphere of fear and reluctance to speak up - even among those who weren't directly victims. If a friend or partner didn't want to speak up because the victim didn't want to either, well that's a fully understandable reason to not do so. Powerful abusers hold a scary amount of influence, and it's incredibly hard to say who in that sphere of influence knew what, could have done something, or simply felt powerless.

    Sex abuse scandals have repeatedly shown it can be extremely difficult to break the levee and reveal the scale of what's happened. The Catholic sex abuse scandal was only uncovered after a handful of brave victims came forward, decades later. Seems to be the case here too. It took some serious, legally precarious and time-consuming - but ultimately extraordinary - reporting from the New York Times and Ronan Farrow, alongside the testimonies of a few brave people willing to tell their stories, to get this out in the open. Hell, Farrow has indicated at least one major news agency - NBC - didn't feel like they could run at the stories, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if other journalists have tried but failed to uncover this. It's easy for us in positions of comfort to say 'somebody should have said something!'. But sadly a culture has long existed when that has not been possible, or has been an incredibly risky proposition with potentially massive personal costs. That's only very slowly but surely changing.

    None of this is to say there aren't people out there who deserve criticism and consequences for any active complicity in all of this - I'm sure details of that will emerge in good time, and they'll deserve whatever comes their way.

    I'm also sure various people have questions to answer about how much they knew and when - not least the Weinstein Company itself. The institutions and structures that allowed this to happen need to be torn down. But the last people I'd be willing to blame are the victims or those that knew them. First and foremost the person to blame is Harvey Weinstein.

    FYI: if a woman was accused of sex abuse on this scale, I would be equally horrified and sympathetic to the victims. Terry Crews was absolutely brave to speak of his own experiences with unwanted sexual advances. Precedent, meanwhile, has shown this is 9+ times out of ten a male offender, with women (or, in the Saville & Catholic Church cases, children) as the victims. So yes, there's inevitably plenty of sympathy towards female victims because they deserve it for being on the receiving end of abuse - and, indeed, much of the horrid personal & societal consequences they've had to endure because of it.


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    #123
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    It would be bad enough being sexually assaulted by whoever, but imagine it being someone who has enough power and influence to ruin your life and your career with the click of his fingers.
    johnny_ultimate wrote: »
    Terry Crews was absolutely brave to speak of his own experiences with unwanted sexual advances. Precedent, meanwhile, has shown this is 9+ times out of ten a male offender, with women (or, in the Saville & Catholic Church cases, children) as the victims. So yes, there's inevitably plenty of sympathy towards female victims because they deserve it for being on the receiving end of abuse.

    For me, personally, Terry Crews is one that shocks me the most. Because it highlights just how little these people gave a f*ck. I believe that particular incident happened when his wife was present (I might have that wrong, but one article gave me that impression). Not only was his wife present, but it's Terry. F*cking. Crews - someone who is built like a brick house and was a friggin NFL player.

    These guys don't care.


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    #124
    __..__
    Registered Users Posts: 452 ✭✭__..__


    I think there is a lot of women forgiveness going on here.
    You don't stand by and let the next victim get abused period. There is no excuse for it, especially that it might hurt your career.


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    #125
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    __..__ wrote: »
    I think there is a lot of women forgiveness going on here.
    You don't stand by and let the next victim get abused period. There is no excuse for it, especially that it might hurt your career.

    TBH you're starting to sound like you'd be better suited to the After Hours thread.

    There's no "women forgiveness" here. That assumes they did something wrong, which they didn't. These women would have seen the consequences of those who tried to say something.

    And it's not just their careers. Weinstein could ruin their whole lives.


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    #126
    johnny_ultimate
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 29,094 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    To put it bluntly: victim blaming is another good reason many women were likely reluctant to open up about their stories.


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    #127
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,226 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    johnny_ultimate wrote: »
    To put it bluntly: victim blaming is another good reason many women were likely reluctant to open up about their stories.

    And yet those who engage in victim blaming never see the irony of that.


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    #128
    Fysh
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 11,011 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fysh


    __..__ wrote: »
    I think there is a lot of women forgiveness going on here.
    You don't stand by and let the next victim get abused period. There is no excuse for it, especially that it might hurt your career.

    I think you're showing a staggering amount of ignorance about the reality of women's daily lives. You're also blaming victims for the actions of attackers, which as it happens is exactly what serial abusers do to justify their actions.

    Do you know anyone who has been assaulted (sexually or otherwise)? Have you ever listened to or read accounts of people who've been assaulted, if so? Because it sounds to me like you need to stop talking and start listening to the people who've been on the receiving end of this kind of behaviour, instead of sounding off self-righteously about how It's The Wimminz At Fault...


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    #129
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    You come forward - it's your word against one of the most powerful people in the Enterntainment industry, who is friends with some incredibly powerful people - even with men (Corey Feldman has been saying about the sexual assaults in Hollywood for years) - and if you don't say anything, you're blamed for more sexual assaults.

    I mean - they just can't win with some people.

    You remember how powerful Saville was? With his connections to the Queen and to the Prime Minister? Weinstein is on another scale entirely.


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    #130
    Pelvis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,758 ✭✭✭Pelvis


    __..__ wrote: »
    I think there is a lot of women forgiveness going on here.
    You don't stand by and let the next victim get abused period. There is no excuse for it, especially that it might hurt your career.
    What do you expect people who heard of his antics to do? Openly accuse him based on hearsay? Don't be so stupid.

    The only reason this story has gained traction is because of PROOF being provided in the form of recordings.


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    #131
    Ash.J.Williams
    Registered Users Posts: 20,929 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    Deleted User wrote: »
    You come forward - it's your word against one of the most powerful people in the Enterntainment industry, who is friends with some incredibly powerful people - even with men (Corey Feldman has been saying about the sexual assaults in Hollywood for years) - and if you don't say anything, you're blamed for more sexual assaults.

    I mean - they just can't win with some people.

    You remember how powerful Saville was? With his connections to the Queen and to the Prime Minister? Weinstein is on another scale entirely.

    Corey feldman, ellijah wood... David icke... All covered it extensively. Nobody cares until the abuser falls foul of his protector


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    #132
    __..__
    Registered Users Posts: 452 ✭✭__..__


    Pelvis wrote: »
    What do you expect people who heard of his antics to do? Openly accuse him based on hearsay? Don't be so stupid.

    The only reason this story has gained traction is because of PROOF being provided in the form of recordings.


    Some did. And they were brave. And then the rest all coming out now left them to the wolves as the time to be savaged on their own. And in doing so they enabled Weinstein to continue on as the predator.
    They are not innocent just because they were victims. What we have these days is victim innocence, rather than victim blame.
    Anyone, victim or not, who didn't speak out and who didn't join with the others who bravely spoke out at the time is guilty of enabling him and of leaving those who spoke out out on their own.
    But of course it's not cool to say that a victim could have helped the following victims to not be victims is it. Oh no, we can't have that. Sure they were all worried about their careers, poor things.


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    #133
    johnny_ultimate
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 29,094 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    Ash.J.Williams wrote: »
    David icke... All covered it extensively.

    Well, in his case, not as much as he would like us to believe :)http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/2015/06/01/the-savile-affair-did-david-icke-really-blow-the-whistle-on-jimmy-savile/


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    #134
    johnny_ultimate
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 29,094 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    __..__ wrote: »
    Sure they were all worried about their careers, poor things.

    Or, you know, having their lives ruined.


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    #135
    __..__
    Registered Users Posts: 452 ✭✭__..__


    johnny_ultimate wrote: »
    Or, you know, having their lives ruined.
    And standing by and letting probably scores of kids have their lives ruined afterwards.


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    #136
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    __..__ wrote: »
    And standing by and letting probably scores of kids have their lives ruined afterwards.

    I don't know about anyone else, but starting to feel like wasted time and wasted energy as they're just not going to listen.


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    #137
    brevity
    Registered Users Posts: 8,479 ✭✭✭brevity


    __..__ wrote: »
    Sure they were all worried about their careers, poor things.

    You keep saying this but if you think the only thing that scared them was the threat of "you'll never work in this town again" then you are being very naive.

    Weinstein was rubbing shoulders with presidents and senators. How was someone supposed to take on that?


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    #138
    __..__
    Registered Users Posts: 452 ✭✭__..__


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    I don't know about anyone else, but starting to feel like wasted time and wasted energy as they're just not going to listen.

    Part of the problem really isn't it. People not listening when someone could prevent further abuse.

    Let me tell you a story. I won't go into the gorey details, but I'll tell you the gist of it.
    My brother was abused by the local priest along with a few others.
    He never said anything which is understandable.
    One of the other abused kids spoke up and named the others who were abused. They all said he was lying.
    That priest got moved and since went to jail for abuse in his new parish.
    That kid who spoke out hung himself years later, even after it all came out. He said he was let down by all his friends and felt guilty he could not stop further abuse happening to other kids.
    My brother now thinks, yes he should have spoken out. Also my cousin was abused by the same man years after my brother could have spoken out.
    My brother was just a teenager at the time, so maybe can be forgiven for being afraid to speak out. Weistein has had adults not speak out when he propositioned or abused them and those adults are responsible for enabling him to carry on. Those adults did not help the other people who stood up to try to prevent it happening to others.

    So defend them all you want, but make no mistake what you are defending here. That's all I have to say on the matter. Over and out.


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    #139
    Pelvis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,758 ✭✭✭Pelvis


    Rose McGowan has accused Weinstein of raping her, and accused Amazon Studios boss Roy Price of ignoring her when told. Price himself has been put on a leave of absence for alleged sexual harassment of a producer.

    I'm not sure of the nature of the relationship between Amazon Studios and Weinstein though... ? Or what McGowan intended by telling Price about Weinstein's actions.


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    #140
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,226 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Pelvis wrote: »
    Rose McGowan has accused Weinstein of raping her, and accused Amazon Studios boss Roy Price of ignoring her when told. Price himself has been put on a leave of absence for alleged sexual harassment of a producer.

    I'm not sure of the nature of the relationship between Amazon Studios and Weinstein though... ? Or what McGowan intended by telling Price about Weinstein's actions.

    From her Twitter it seems that McGowan was selling a show to Amazon, but she heard they were going to be working with Weinstein on something else too or even possibly buying them out (she says something about a bailout), so she tried to convince them not to by telling him what Weinstein did to her. In the end, Amazon bought McGowan's show, shelved it and I think had some projects with Weinstein lined up before the news about him broke.


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    #141
    buried
    Registered Users Posts: 9,675 ✭✭✭buried


    Not sure if it's been discussed in here already, but have any of ye seen 'Overnight'?

    "You have disgraced yourselves again" - W. B. Yeats



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    #142
    Fysh
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 11,011 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fysh


    __..__ wrote: »
    Part of the problem really isn't it. People not listening when someone could prevent further abuse.

    Let me tell you a story. I won't go into the gorey details, but I'll tell you the gist of it.
    My brother was abused by the local priest along with a few others.
    He never said anything which is understandable.
    One of the other abused kids spoke up and named the others who were abused. They all said he was lying.
    That priest got moved and since went to jail for abuse in his new parish.
    That kid who spoke out hung himself years later, even after it all came out. He said he was let down by all his friends and felt guilty he could not stop further abuse happening to other kids.
    My brother now thinks, yes he should have spoken out. Also my cousin was abused by the same man years after my brother could have spoken out.
    My brother was just a teenager at the time, so maybe can be forgiven for being afraid to speak out. Weistein has had adults not speak out when he propositioned or abused them and those adults are responsible for enabling him to carry on. Those adults did not help the other people who stood up to try to prevent it happening to others.

    So defend them all you want, but make no mistake what you are defending here. That's all I have to say on the matter. Over and out.

    With respect, your experience of what your brother went through doesn't make you any kind of authority on what victims of sexual abuse go through. Survivor guilt is a serious problem, to which you and others like you will be contributing by victim blaming. Teenager/adult is not a firm boundary, and the repercussions of assault and abuse (especially if it's normalised in an environment, or the environment protects the abuser and allows them to hide their crimes) can makr it difficult for some victims to even accept what happened to them, much less confront their attacker.

    Empathy and support toward the victims what is required to address an issue like this, not holier-than-thou victim-blaming.


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    #143
    Saruhashi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 591 ✭✭✭Saruhashi


    Fysh wrote: »
    we are in a society where being a white man automatically confers upon you more credibility, authority, influence and power than any other gender and ethnicity combination

    No we are not. Ridiculous claim.


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    #144
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,139 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    I got **** runnin' throught my brain
    It's so intense that I can't explain
    All alone in my white-boy pain
    Shake your booty while the band complains


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    #145
    Saruhashi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 591 ✭✭✭Saruhashi


    __..__ wrote: »
    Part of the problem really isn't it. People not listening when someone could prevent further abuse.

    Let me tell you a story. I won't go into the gorey details, but I'll tell you the gist of it.
    My brother was abused by the local priest along with a few others.
    He never said anything which is understandable.
    One of the other abused kids spoke up and named the others who were abused. They all said he was lying.
    That priest got moved and since went to jail for abuse in his new parish.
    That kid who spoke out hung himself years later, even after it all came out. He said he was let down by all his friends and felt guilty he could not stop further abuse happening to other kids.
    My brother now thinks, yes he should have spoken out. Also my cousin was abused by the same man years after my brother could have spoken out.
    My brother was just a teenager at the time, so maybe can be forgiven for being afraid to speak out. Weistein has had adults not speak out when he propositioned or abused them and those adults are responsible for enabling him to carry on. Those adults did not help the other people who stood up to try to prevent it happening to others.

    So defend them all you want, but make no mistake what you are defending here. That's all I have to say on the matter. Over and out.

    That's so tragic and so heavy but I'm not sure it's fair to blame anyone for being afraid to speak out.

    The truth is if you don't have the power or the money then the ability to speak out and have any kind of effect is diminished.

    I don't think we can expect victims to shoulder the burden of being a victim AND also be crusaders for justice. It seems overwhelming to even consider it.

    The larger community MUST take responsibility here. There are powerful and rich people who knew what Weinstein was all about and it seems like they largely did nothing.

    They were the ones with the power to take him down or expose him or whatever. Instead they all just shrugged it off.

    Everything we've heard so far points to the fact that people knew what he was like for a long time. It was the same in the church. People knew.

    If it's an "open secret" then we shouldn't even need victims to be the ones to speak out. The entire community should have turned on this guy.

    The fact that Weinstein seems to have been ignored, tolerated or protected by powerful and rich people really just tells us that it would have been very difficult for victims to speak up and have any kind of impact.

    I get what you are saying, I really do, and I think it comes from a good place. I think that when a victim speaks up against these powerful figures it's likely that they will just be ignored or worse.

    You need other powerful figures in the community to step in and it's often the case that they just won't.


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    #146
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    The other thing to remember is that the victims probably saw that those that come forward were called liars and, very likely, ostracized by their community. That's what happened here; numerous people came forward and had their careers or their lives ruined. It would make it so hard for other victims to come forward.


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    #147
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,226 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Found this interesting from Robert Webb on Twitter from his book. About a boy in his school who went round pinching some of the girls. The last sentence kinda sums it up:

    DMAU4iyUQAAFg-c.jpg:large

    It's easy in hindsight to say these women should have come forward. But without knowing other women were going to come forward too, it makes it all the more difficult. As is the case here, there's strength in numbers, because most of these women's stories about what happened them with Weinstein... they've no proof. Whether it's the actresses it happened to or those who'd heard the rumours, in the vast vast majority of the cases, there's no proof.

    The proof is in the number of the women who have come forward and how their stories are so similar. It shows a clear pattern of behaviour. But that only works, if enough women come forward with their stories in the first place. That's why they can come forward now, because the stories of other women are helping to validate theirs and back up their story.


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    #148
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 15,814 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Surprised that we've not seen anything more about Brett Ratner, Olivia Munn's accused him of some pretty horrendous things. Ratner surprisingly enough to many is one of the most powerful people in Hollywood given that his production company is behind some of the biggest films of the last few years.

    This is an extract from Olivin Munn's book about the incident:
    “Wait,” he begged.

    Slowly, like in a bad horror movie, I turned around once more. And I remember first noticing him wearing an Oxford shirt and holding a fistful of cocktail sauce-smothered shrimp. He popped one down his throat and then another, the red sauce collecting like so much baby’s blood at the corner of his smirking mouth before dribbling down his front and settling as glistening stains on his shirt.

    […] This A-List schmuck then has the nerve to say: “You have such an interesting look– what ethnicity are you?”

    And this is where things crossed over from merely disturbing to downright horrific–that was the exact moment I noticed what was either a tiny gnarled doggie toy or this adult man’s penis being stroked by his own stubby hand. […]

    He was masturbating. Right there. With shrimp in one hand. And me standing in front of him. Masturbating. Mastur-bating. I’m not even kidding.

    And the dude was going for it, too, furiously pulling at the tragic stub. Before I could even begin to make sense of the whole deal, he was moaning, moaning and then–fire hose. On steroids. The Mt. Saint Helens of man-juice. An eruption the size of which Los Angeles County had never before had the misfortune of bearing witness to. I am not being hyperbolic when I report to you with no small measure of dismay that this slob’s cum hung from the ceiling. I could see it made its way to the stereo and draped over the buttons. Collateral damage had even claimed the doorknob, which was so integral to my escape, and thus, my sanity.


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    #149
    Pelvis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,758 ✭✭✭Pelvis


    God that's some awful writing...


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    #150
    Dr Brown
    Registered Users Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭Dr Brown


    I wonder how many A list stars in hollywood only got to were they are because they slept their way to the top... it must be an awful alot of them.


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    #151
    Noel82
    Closed Accounts Posts: 419 ✭✭Noel82


    Fysh wrote: »
    because we are in a society where being a white man automatically confers upon you more credibility, authority, influence and power than any other gender and ethnicity combination. So they had a greater ability to act, which makes their inaction more egregious.

    rs-214981-GettyImages-111787446.jpg


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