Serial

FouxDaFaFa · 25-11-2014 12:53pm

Giruilla wrote: »

You realise that this isn't the reason Jay testified Adnan killed Hae?
Jay's whole story is that Adnan premeditatively murdered Hae.
Yet you'd still believe Adnan killed Hae which is based almost solely on Jay's testimony.

Jay said that he'd heard Adnan say a few times that he was going to kill Hae but that he didn't take it seriously. It's possible to have this simmering kind of "I'm angry with her, she deserves to die" idea but then also to act in the heat of the moment. I think Jay was influenced quite a bit by the police to secure the "highest" possible conviction, pre-meditated murder. Or maybe Jay is completely making those comments up to bolster the case on the advice of police or off his own bat.

Giruilla wrote: »

She wasn't. School finished at 2.15, and she only had to collect her cousin at 3.15.

Yes but if you believe the testimony of Summer from Episode 9, Hae stayed and spoke with her for quite a while after school about how she couldn't help her at the wrestling match and this would have made her pushed for time to pick up her cousin.

Summer never talked to the detectives, there’s no mention of her in their notes, but she’s not the only person who said they saw Hae after school that day. Becky saw her right after school, Debbie Warren said she talked to Hae too, the police notes say she saw her at approximately 3 p.m. inside the school near the gym which would match Summer’s memory.

Giruilla · 25-11-2014 1:02pm

FouxDaFaFa wrote: »

Yes but if you believe the testimony of Summer from Episode 9, Hae stayed and spoke with her for quite a while after school about how she couldn't help her at the wrestling match and this would have made her pushed for time to pick up her cousin.

Yes, but whats the point here? That Hae didn't have enough time to confront Jay about his infidelity, but she did have enough time to give Adnan a lift to - seemingly where?
If she had time to do one thing, she had time to do the other. And if anything, she'd have more time to confront Jay than to give Adnan a lift somewhere.
And if she did give Adnan a lift.. why would he kill her, knowing she's on route to pick up her cousin. It's insane.

Real Psycrow · 25-11-2014 1:05pm

Giruilla wrote: »

Yes, but whats the point here? That Hae didn't have enough time to confront Jay about his infidelity, but she did have enough time to give Adnan a lift to - seemingly where?
If she had time to do one thing, she had time to do the other. And if anything, she'd have more time to confront Jay than to give Adnan a lift somewhere.
And if she did give Adnan a lift.. why would he kill her, knowing she's on route to pick up her cousin. It's insane.

I don't think either of these are the point of Summer's story. Adnan was convicted on the missing 21 minutes he can't explain his whereabouts for after school the day Hae went missing. He can explain where he was for the rest of the day.

Now Summer is saying that Hae was still alive during that 21 minutes.

Giruilla · 25-11-2014 1:10pm

Real Psycrow wrote: »

I don't think either of these are the point of Summer's story. Adnan was convicted on the missing 21 minutes he can't explain his whereabouts for after school the day Hae went missing. He can explain where he was for the rest of the day.
Now Summer is saying that Hae was still alive during that 21 minutes.

I was responding to FouxDaFaFa's point that Hae wouldn't have had enough time to confront Jay..

volchitsa · 25-11-2014 3:04pm

I've finally caught up with this, and like others have been flipping from It's Adnan, to "it has to be Jay" and back, and various intermediate opinions...

It is compelling radio, I must say, but I agree that we are being taken along for the ride by Sarah, and I think there will be several more switchbacks before the end.

Anyone here think the Innocence Project will be involved in the denouement?

(Separate question : when the poster has posted a (hidden) spoiler, is it possible for anyone else to make it visible? Now that I'm up to date, I'd be interested in reading those posts in full but I can't see how to.)

FouxDaFaFa · 25-11-2014 3:25pm

volchitsa wrote: »

Separate question : when the poster has posted a (hidden) spoiler, is it possible for anyone else to make it visible? Now that I'm up to date, I'd be interested in reading those posts in full but I can't see how to.

Highlight them with your cursor as if you were about to copy and paste.

It's just so people have to intentionally read them.

volchitsa · 25-11-2014 4:15pm

FouxDaFaFa wrote: »

Highlight them with your cursor as if you were about to copy and paste.

It's just so people have to intentionally read them.

Thank you. It did seem strange to allow people to post them if there was no way to read what they had written. That said, it doesn't seem to work for me, presumably because I'm on an iPad.
Maybe there's some special Apple technique I haven't worked out yet

8-10 · 25-11-2014 4:38pm

volchitsa wrote: »

Thank you. It did seem strange to allow people to post them if there was no way to read what they had written. That said, it doesn't seem to work for me, presumably because I'm on an iPad.
Maybe there's some special Apple technique I haven't worked out yet

Click to Reply to the post. Spoiler tags are removed when you're quoting

8-10 · 25-11-2014 6:31pm

For me I've been flip-flopping from Jay to Adnan then back to Jay to the point that I feel I have less of an idea than when I started!

Key points that are unresolved for me: *Note be wary there are spoilers below that have been mentioned in one of the 9 podcasts, where information is available online but not in the podcast as of yet, I have used spoiler tags*

Motive - neither Adnan's pride/passion after break up nor Jay's
cheating on Stephanie
motives put forward are that convincing in my opinion, both seem really weak.
Hae's
credit card being charged $1.71 at Crown Gas Station on Jan 13th which is not near to any of the locations mentioned in the case and is 30mins from the school.
Adnan not trying to contact Hae after the 13th
The fact that Adnan bought a new phone the day before

I'm not saying that any of these are driving me in one way or the other, just that these are the things that my mind seems to keep going back to.

volchitsa · 25-11-2014 6:32pm

Thanks 8-10 - funnily enough, do you know that had just occurred to me, and I came in here to try exactly that, and saw your message!

Is that how it's always done on an iPad? It seems a bit complicated, doesn't it?

volchitsa · 25-11-2014 6:42pm

Wow, I missed that second point you mentioned, the spoiler about Hae, or maybe that is what didn't figure in the actual Serial podcast. That is a big issue right there.

I think I need to listen back to work out details now that we have had some of the original information modified/corrected (

times of phone calls for example

). I would definitely say that whether or not it's actually possible to prove who killed here it's looking as though Adnan may have been convicted on shaky grounds.

padraig_f · 25-11-2014 7:28pm

What seems most plausible to me right now...

Jay was more involved than he's making out, but Adnan did it.

I was wondering why Adnan wasn't going on the offensive more about Jay, and someone said it (think it was on the Slate podcast), that Adnan probably can't do this without incriminating himself.

This also accounts for the inconsistencies in Jay's story.

A lot of talk about reasonable doubt in the podcast. Me, I think it is beyond reasonable doubt that either Jay or Adnan did it. Main piece of evidence for this: Jay was able to tell the cops where Hae's car was, which they didn't know to that point.

There's no reasonable explanation for him knowing this without them being some way involved.

So then you decide is it Jay or Adnan. For me I've seen nothing to suggest it would be Jay. Didn't have a relationship with Hae, went to the cops voluntarily. You could say that was a plan, but it just seems very implausible to me that he'd be able to construct this masterplan, and everything else would more or less fit, including things he had no control over like Adnan not having an alibi.

FouxDaFaFa wrote: »

Yes but if you believe the testimony of Summer from Episode 9, Hae stayed and spoke with her for quite a while after school about how she couldn't help her at the wrestling match and this would have made her pushed for time to pick up her cousin.

I found this new Summer stuff really sketchy. She never talked to the cops, but she comes along 15 years later and knows where she was in a particular 20-minute period? Thought that was really shaky and pretty much dismissed it as being unreliable.

8-10 · 25-11-2014 7:43pm

volchitsa wrote: »

Wow, I missed that second point you mentioned, the spoiler about Hae, or maybe that is what didn't figure in the actual Serial podcast. That is a big issue right there.

It didn't figure in the podcast which I thought was strange but it's in the Appeal documents from 2002 (yes I've been digging!), might have been genuinely discounted as there's nothing further about it anywhere

I really don't think we'll ever have a conclusive answer, but in a way that's what makes this story so compelling.

Turtyturd · 25-11-2014 9:08pm

The lack of a conclusive ending would be a drawback for me, although that could be because I thought it was a piece of fiction when I began it and was expecting it to be neatly wrapped up and explained.

The only way I could see a conclusive ending now would be if they reveal some concrete proof that Adnan did it, which would go against the direction of the show so far but be a swerve to generate massive publicity. I haven't quite figured out the details but I think the confirmation that Hae wasn't murdered in those 20 odd minutes will be bad news for Adnan.

volchitsa · 25-11-2014 9:17pm

Turtyturd wrote: »

The only way I could see a conclusive ending now would be if they reveal some concrete proof that Adnan did it, which would go against the direction of the show so far but be a swerve to generate massive publicity. I haven't quite figured out the details but I think the confirmation that Hae wasn't murdered in those 20 odd minutes will be bad news for Adnan.

Thinking about this, I wonder if Adnan could be guilty and yet still be kind of telling the truth (in his own mind at least) if he feels there was a miscarriage of justice because the court got it so wrong in terms of what actually happened that he might easily have been innocent, since he didn't commit the exact crime he was convicted of.

Not sure if that's completely clear there!

8-10 · 25-11-2014 9:35pm

volchitsa wrote: »

Thinking about this, I wonder if Adnan could be guilty and yet still be kind of telling the truth (in his own mind at least) if he feels there was a miscarriage of justice because the court got it so wrong in terms of what actually happened that he might easily have been innocent, since he didn't commit the exact crime he was convicted of.

Not sure if that's completely clear there!

*note - I don't know the mods on here but is there a chance of getting a spoiler alert in the thread title? I would still recommend we spoiler tag info about the case which might be available but is not mentioned on the podcast, but it's a grey area right now and while I really really don't want to spoil the thread for people who aren't up to speed, at some stage we should be able to discuss the podcast without worrying who might know what. So the below might have spoilers....

Well that's interesting as I reckon it's (the podcast) kind of been set up as a way of looking at his case more for the miscarriage of justice point of view than the whodunnit point of view (though in reality it comes across as both). The fact that the Innocence Project are getting involved makes me think that an appeal or similar would have been planned to be part of the story.

One of the interesting quotes from the podcast for me came in the 7th episode talking to the innocence project when the director of the innocence project (Deirdre?) muses if the state actually had enough of a case to get a conviction. And Sarah's response was well they did, because a jury convicted him!

And I think that's the key thing here - it appears obvious that the State's case was flawed, and there's reasonable doubt of his guilt based on what we know. However, this fact does not mean an appeal should overturn the decision. I'm no lawyer but I think you have to do a lot more than prove that the case facts were incorrect which would open up reasonable doubt, instead you actually have to go further and find either a) evidence to prove that somebody else committed the crime he was found guilty of, or b) evidence that may not solve the case, but which would exonerate his guilt (which has at this point been proven). The point that we know facts now that prove reasonable doubt isn't really a thing, so without a confession from somebody else there would have to be specific evidence to prove that he couldn't have done it, and the strongest one I can see, is Asia's statement which was never entered and she didn't testify.

It's fascinating stuff really.

Rosy Posy · 26-11-2014 8:53am

padraig_f wrote: »

For me I've seen nothing to suggest it would be Jay. Didn't have a relationship with Hae, went to the cops voluntarily. You could say that was a plan, but it just seems very implausible to me that he'd be able to construct this masterplan, and everything else would more or less fit, including things he had no control over like Adnan not having an alibi.

But Jay didn't go to the cops voluntarily- they picked up Jenn based on a suspicion of Adnan because he was the most recent ex, and the multiple calls from Adnan's phone to Jenn's (including calls which Jay makes when he alledges that he is in her house). Jenn avoids the cops, then lies then lawyers up, gets Jay involved. He gets picked up, lies for hours and hours before coming out with a version of his story which becomes refined over time with coaching from the cops. If you don't think that police can lead a witness unintentionally or intentionally then you should listen to the TAL episode 'Confessions' featuring Jim Trainum who is engaged by Sarah to look over the case. One of the scariest aspects of this case is the way that the police routinely apply confirmation bias to ignore 'bad evidence' that could weaken their theory.

volchitsa · 26-11-2014 9:21am

Rosy Posy wrote: »

If you don't think that police can lead a witness unintentionally or intentionally then you should listen to the TAL episode 'Confessions' featuring Jim Trainum who is engaged by Sarah to look over the case. One of the scariest aspects of this case is the way that the police routinely apply confirmation bias to ignore 'bad evidence' that could weaken their theory.

Was that the episode where they talked about the approach whereby "all facts are friendly" vs "constructing a case"? I thought that was very significant in terms of what police work actually means with regard to solving a case. In general, I mean, not just here.

Very different from the usual fictional police series, where only the bad cops work like that!

padraig_f · 26-11-2014 2:34pm

Rosy Posy wrote: »

But Jay didn't go to the cops voluntarily- they picked up Jenn based on a suspicion of Adnan because he was the most recent ex, and the multiple calls from Adnan's phone to Jenn's (including calls which Jay makes when he alledges that he is in her house). Jenn avoids the cops, then lies then lawyers up, gets Jay involved.

Ok, maybe I got that wrong, I'm going to relisten to the first few episodes to refresh my memory on some of the details, but I still largely believe Jay.

He gets picked up, lies for hours and hours before coming out with a version of his story which becomes refined over time with coaching from the cops.

I don't think it was ever suggested he lied for hours. All they had was that the tape recorder wasn't switched on for the first part of his interview with the police.

If you don't think that police can lead a witness unintentionally or intentionally then you should listen to the TAL episode 'Confessions' featuring Jim Trainum who is engaged by Sarah to look over the case. One of the scariest aspects of this case is the way that the police routinely apply confirmation bias to ignore 'bad evidence' that could weaken their theory.

I'll have a listen. That was the guy that Koenig quoted on the last episode, and I thought it was the most useful comment in considering the value of peoples impressions of peoples personalities/motives:

Koenig: "Interestingly, Jim Trainum the former homicide detective we hired to review the investigation immediately disregarded every single statement about Adnan’s reaction. In terms of evaluating someone’s guilt, he said stuff like that is worthless. He advised me to do the same, just toss it all out he said, because it’s subjective, it’s hindsight and also people tend to bend their memories to what they think police think they want to hear."

So stuff like when they went to Cathy's apartment and she thought Adnan was acting weird, I dismiss. Similarly things like people saying "Adnan was a great guy, he couldn't have done that". Just too subjective.

padraig_f · 26-11-2014 2:59pm

With no episode this week, I'm gonna relisten to the first few episodes. Listened to episode 1 last night, it's useful. The first time you hear it you're trying to understand the basic facts. Second time, you know the basic facts and can concentrate on some of the more nuanced details.

Relistening to episode 1....even more convinced of Adnan's guilt, I have to say. Couple of things...

- Says he doesn't remember where he was on the key part of the day. I just find this unbelievable. He's talking to Hae the night before, he's in contact with her during the day. She goes missing and police are immediately informed, as this is so out of character for her to not pick up her cousin. And Adnan is going on like it's another forgettable day "I would've typically been doing this or that". A significant day like that, you'd retrace your steps "I last saw her in the canteen" or whatever, then I went to X.

Also Adnan seems to have plenty of friends and whatnot, but for that part of the day he's apparently on his own, somewhere he can't remember. I don't buy it. When you're at school like that, you're always with other people, and Adnan seemed to be more outgoing than average.

- Jay had no car himself. The reason Jay had use of Adnan's car that day was because it was Stephanie's birthday and Adnan gave him a loan of his car to go buy her a present. Just makes the whole 'Jay did it' theory seem incredibly far-fetched. He not only had a motive to kill this girl he apparently had no relationship with, he also conveniently had use of her ex-boyfriend's car and phone. I just think this is an incredibly far-fetched and implausible theory.

volchitsa · 26-11-2014 3:09pm

padraig_f wrote: »

- Says he doesn't remember where he was on the key part of the day. I just find this unbelievable. He's talking to Hae the night before, he's in contact with her during the day. She goes missing and police are immediately informed, as this is so out of character for her to not pick up her cousin. And Adnan is going on like it's another forgettable day "I would've typically been doing this or that". A significant day like that, you'd retrace your steps "I last saw her in the canteen" or whatever, then I went to X.

Also Adnan seems to have plenty of friends and whatnot, but for that part of the day he's apparently on his own, somewhere he can't remember. I don't buy it. When you're at school like that, you're always with other people, and Adnan seemed to be more outgoing than average.

- Jay had no car himself. The reason Jay had use of Adnan's car that day was because it was Stephanie's birthday and Adnan gave him a loan of his car to go buy her a present. Just makes the whole 'Jay did it' theory seem incredibly far-fetched. He not only had a motive to kill this girl he apparently had no relationship with, he also conveniently had use of her ex-boyfriend's car and phone. I just think this is an incredibly far-fetched and implausible theory.

Yep, those are good points, Padraig. I've been saying the same thing, the early epis need to be revisited in the light of later developments. This is the thing about it being a story, rather than a police report I suppose. There has been a lot of "teasing" going on, and that needs to be kept in mind.
Brilliantly done though - but I also feel a little uneasy about the fact that it is not just a story to Hae's family, in particular.

Giruilla · 26-11-2014 3:31pm

padraig_f wrote: »

- Says he doesn't remember where he was on the key part of the day. I just find this unbelievable. He's talking to Hae the night before, he's in contact with her during the day. She goes missing and police are immediately informed, as this is so out of character for her to not pick up her cousin. And Adnan is going on like it's another forgettable day "I would've typically been doing this or that". A significant day like that, you'd retrace your steps "I last saw her in the canteen" or whatever, then I went to X.

Adnan was questioned over a month after Hae disappeared and he was a big pot smoker. He said himself he didn't think it was a big deal that Hae went missing as a lot of people presumed she went of with Don or to California to see her Dad.

padraig_f wrote: »

- Jay had no car himself. The reason Jay had use of Adnan's car that day was because it was Stephanie's birthday and Adnan gave him a loan of his car to go buy her a present.

Jay regularly had a loan of Adnans car. Just so happened the reason that day was to buy a present, but him having Adnans car wasn't anything out of the ordinary. He picked him up from track all the time in Adnans car.

padraig_f wrote: »

He not only had a motive to kill this girl he apparently had no relationship with, he also conveniently had use of her ex-boyfriend's car and phone.

He also had use of Hae's car after/if he killed her. It's almost guaranteed he did drive Hae's car that day as he knew the exact location of where to bring the police to it. He also rang Jenn for a lift numerous times that day to get around.

padraig_f wrote: »

I just think this is an incredibly far-fetched and implausible theory.

Jay's whole story is far-fetched and implausible. The only possible times this 'come and get me call' from Adnan could have come were the 2.36 and 3.15 calls on the log. They've both subsequently been completely ruled out.

Giruilla · 26-11-2014 3:32pm

The only evidence linking Adnan to murdering Hae is Jay's testimony that he did it.

There is faaarrr more evidence linking Jay to Hae's murder. Jay's shovel which he went back to wipe his prints from, Jay burning the clothes he wore that day. Jay knowing exactly where Hae's car was. There was so much evidence on him he had no choice but to deflect it onto someone else.

volchitsa · 26-11-2014 3:39pm

Giruilla wrote: »

The only evidence linking Adnan to murdering Hae is Jay's testimony that he did it.

There is faaarrr more evidence linking Jay to Hae's murder. Jay's shovel which he went back to wipe his prints from, Jay burning the clothes he wore that day. Jay knowing exactly where Hae's car was. There was so much evidence on him he had no choice but to deflect it onto someone else.

Oh dear, here I go again, flip-flopping from one to the other! OK, just remembered that one of the things that made me sceptical about it being Adnan was Jay's allegation about Adnan threatening to hurt Stephanie if Jay said anything. Jay was the tough guy, would he be threatened by someone like Adnan? Whereas as a projection by Jay onto Adnan of what he had actually done (got at Adnan via Hae) well, that seems possible.

I think.

Now someone is going to make me change my mind back again, I guess!

8-10 · 26-11-2014 4:05pm

Giruilla wrote: »

Jay regularly had a loan of Adnans car. Just so happened the reason that day was to buy a present, but him having Adnans car wasn't anything out of the ordinary. He picked him up from track all the time in Adnans car.

This is another thing I don't really have a handle on - how close were Jay and Adnan? I mean yeah Jay was his dealer (I infer that from the podcasts) and they smoked together but others talk about how they were just acquaintances which would be odd if Jay has his car all the time and Adnan lends him his new phone just a day after he buys it

The present for Stephanie story from the first episode is strange to hear also. Adnan speaks about wanting to ask Jay if he got her a gift and that part seems pretty strange also.

Especially as the day before, Jan 12th, happened to be Jay's birthday. Jay and Stephanie were a close couple so having birthday's on consecutive days (I actually had this situation with my ex in secondary school) you'd think that they'd already discussed it, and if there was gift giving, surely Stephanie would have given one the day before. If that's the case then Jay shouldn't have needed reminding to return the favour.

I might be looking too much into that, but overall the motive to go talk to Jay to see if he got her a gift and give him the car to go to the mall seems a bit loose

Giruilla · 26-11-2014 4:25pm

volchitsa wrote: »

Oh dear, here I go again, flip-flopping from one to the other! OK, just remembered that one of the things that made me sceptical about it being Adnan was Jay's allegation about Adnan threatening to hurt Stephanie if Jay said anything. Jay was the tough guy, would he be threatened by someone like Adnan? Whereas as a projection by Jay onto Adnan of what he had actually done (got at Adnan via Hae) well, that seems possible.

I think.

Now someone is going to make me change my mind back again, I guess!

The only thing that helps forcify Jay's testimony that Adnan did it (which is literally the only hard evidence again Adnan), is that he told Jenn that day.

Yet, Jay really had no choice but to tell her (falsify imo) that Adnan did it, as he called her for a lift and she knew he was acting strange... acting strange the day Hae went missing. She says he only told her Adnan killed Hae as she knew something big was up with him.

The idea Adnan would kill someone, then basically force Jay to help him bury Hae is almost ludicrous. What did he need Jay's help with?!

8-10 · 26-11-2014 4:30pm

Giruilla wrote: »

The only thing that helps forcify Jay's testimony that Adnan did it (which is literally the only hard evidence again Adnan), is that he told Jenn that day.

Yet, Jay really had no choice but to tell her (falsify imo) that Adnan did it, as he called her for a lift and she knew he was acting strange... acting strange the day Hae went missing. She says he only told her Adnan killed Hae as she knew something big was up with him.

The idea Adnan would kill someone, then basically force Jay to help him bury Hae is almost ludicrous. What did he need Jay's help with?!

I guess his story implies that Adnan needed to dump Hae's car somewhere and get back to track practice to be seen - it's in the 1st or 2nd episode I think

So he needs a 2nd driver

volchitsa · 26-11-2014 4:32pm

Giruilla wrote: »

The idea Adnan would kill someone, then basically force Jay to help him bury Hae is almost ludicrous. What did he need Jay's help with?!

The trainer (I think) said Jay often picked Adnan up (in Adnan's car?) though, didn't he? Which sounds like there was something there. Maybe as a favour for dealing? I don't know, I'm only guessing here.

Thing is, that could all be explained if Adnan killed her without having premeditated it, on a day when Jay had his car, but that isn't Jay's story.

I don't know.

I also think (separate issue) that not putting Adnan on the stand was a huge error of judgment. He wasn't well served by his lawyer, so that extent his conviction is definitely dodgy. IMO.

volchitsa · 26-11-2014 4:34pm

8-10 wrote: »

I guess his story implies that Adnan needed to dump Hae's car somewhere and get back to track practice to be seen - it's in the 1st or 2nd episode I think

Yeah, except that's not what they did, they hung around, smoked a bit, and Adnan appears to have been late for track practice - if he went at all. So that doesn't work really. Not for a premeditated killing, like I said just now.

8-10 · 26-11-2014 4:39pm

volchitsa wrote: »

Yeah, except that's not what they did, they hung around, smoked a bit, and Adnan appears to have been late for track practice - if he went at all. So that doesn't work really. Not for a premeditated killing, like I said just now.

But he still needed to be picked up, the other poster seemed to think Jay was not needed because of the fact that Adnan could have dug the hole by himself, I think that poster overlooked the fact that he still needed help with a 2nd car. No matter who did it (of Adnan or Jay) there must have been a 2nd person involved otherwise how would they have dumped the car where they did, on their own, and gotten back to Kathy's house or wherever they say they were next? The bus?

The fact that the car was left somewhere leads me to believe there had to be more than 1 person involved. The deep voice Jen P heard on the phone saying that Jay was busy is the only indication I've heard of there being a 3rd person, but right now I don't think that's likely.

Giruilla · 26-11-2014 4:52pm

8-10 wrote: »

But he still needed to be picked up, the other poster seemed to think Jay was not needed because of the fact that Adnan could have dug the hole by himself, I think that poster overlooked the fact that he still needed help with a 2nd car. No matter who did it (of Adnan or Jay) there must have been a 2nd person involved otherwise how would they have dumped the car where they did, on their own, and gotten back to Kathy's house or wherever they say they were next? The bus?

Jenn on what Jay told her

“No. I just took him to some place in the city and I dropped him off. And I took him to a..then I went down picked him up from a different place in the city”

So how exactly does Adnan need help with the 2nd car?

Assuming Adnan was moving Hae's car after Jay dropped him off.. how is he getting around without any car in the first place?

Giruilla · 26-11-2014 4:56pm

8-10 wrote: »

I guess his story implies that Adnan needed to dump Hae's car somewhere and get back to track practice to be seen - it's in the 1st or 2nd episode I think

So he needs a 2nd driver

Why not just drive Hae's car somewhere, dump the body, then call Jay for a lift.
What does he need Jay to come along for directly after killing Hae?!
That act itself - of ringing Jay - is what brings in two cars into the equation.

So what you're saying is, he's ringing Jay to force him to drive Hae's car.

The Strawman Argument · 27-11-2014 1:06am

For people who need a substitute for their weekly Serial fix (there's no episode coming out today because of Thanksgiving, here's a few things that may be of interest

1. This American Life - Episode 492 - Dr Gilmer and Mr Hyde
Sarah Koenig investigates another murder case over the course of one episode. Almost like a Serial pilot or something.

2. The Slate Spoiler Podcast
Usually reserved for discussing recently released films, they've been covering Serial every week since episode 5. They don't cover any of the information that's been dug up on reddit but not yet covered on the show so there's no risk of having later episodes spoiled.
They've done an episode today which focuses exclusively on the reddit stuff though.
http://feeds.feedburner.com/SlateSpoilerSpecials

3. The Serial Serial
AV Club weekly discussion podcast, I prefer the Slate one but this one's okay too
http://www.avclub.com/features/the-serial-serial/

4. Conversations on the Serial Podcast
Haven't watched this one yet myself but I've heard a few other people mention it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OukREflhb-0&list=PLHYTsYMhZlH9R3TsNtSYSRmL3SyQ2vo1m&index=1

Rosy Posy · 27-11-2014 8:29am

8-10 wrote: »

I guess his story implies that Adnan needed to dump Hae's car somewhere and get back to track practice to be seen - it's in the 1st or 2nd episode I think

So he needs a 2nd driver

The car was dumped at the park and ride...the clue's in the name...it's close to a public transport hub...so he could have gotten the bus.

I really enjoy the Conversations review, mostly because of Rabia- yer man is a bit long winded. The Slate and the AV club podcasts are ok but I feel like they lower the tone from the reflective TAL style that we know and love, to something a more showbizny, iykwim.

This blog has some really good insights from an American legal perspective. This post in particular

http://viewfromll2.com/2014/11/26/serial-why-jays-testimony-is-not-credible-evidence-of-adnans-guilt/

and here's the link to the confessions episode

http://m.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/507/confessions

8-10 · 27-11-2014 9:21am

Rosy Posy wrote: »

The car was dumped at the park and ride...the clue's in the name...it's close to a public transport hub...so he could have gotten the bus.

If you believe Jay's story given to the police then it was parked at the Park And Ride for a few hours

I think you're confusing this information with the location of where Hae's car was dumped for 6 weeks before Jay took the detectives to recover it - the grassy hill behind a row of houses somewhere on Edmonson Avenue (episode 4)

It's this location, where it was eventually dumped that I was talking about, not the I-70 park and ride which is alleged to have been used just between the murder and the burial (which I'm not sure yet if I believe happened)

Rosy Posy · 27-11-2014 11:23am

8-10 wrote: »

If you believe Jay's story given to the police then it was parked at the Park And Ride for a few hours

I think you're confusing this information with the location of where Hae's car was dumped for 6 weeks before Jay took the detectives to recover it - the grassy hill behind a row of houses somewhere on Edmonson Avenue (episode 4)

It's this location, where it was eventually dumped that I was talking about, not the I-70 park and ride which is alleged to have been used just between the murder and the burial (which I'm not sure yet if I believe happened)

Oops, I was under the impression that it was left at the park and ride permanently. According to someone on reddit with way too much time on their hands there's a direct bus from Edmondson Ave to Best Buy tho...

8-10 · 27-11-2014 12:21pm

Rosy Posy wrote: »

Oops, I was under the impression that it was left at the park and ride permanently. According to someone on reddit with way too much time on their hands there's a direct bus from Edmondson Ave to Best Buy tho...

Ha ha fair enough, did they check that the route was there in 1999?

There's a lot of good information on reddit but I haven't looked at much of it. If I had the time I'd think of making my own timeline

Rosy Posy · 28-11-2014 12:56am

8-10 wrote: »

Ha ha fair enough, did they check that the route was there in 1999?

There's a lot of good information on reddit but I haven't looked at much of it. If I had the time I'd think of making my own timeline

They didn't say. It's a bit intense, that subreddit- people doing nutty things like timing themselves digging a shallow grave, using their gf as a Hae stand in; or expressing outrage at the producers not acknowledging the value of the obsessive online theorising. I like a good tinfoil hat as much as the next person but Sarah and co have been doing this as their job for the last year- they're hardly going to be out sleuthed in a few weeks by a bunch of armchair detectives.

There is an absolute wealth of info including several timelines- there's a good YouTube that someone's made showing Jays timeline on a map. Can't link from my phone for some reason but it's on the links in the subreddit.

8-10 · 28-11-2014 9:02am

Rosy Posy wrote: »

They didn't say. It's a bit intense, that subreddit- people doing nutty things like timing themselves digging a shallow grave, using their gf as a Hae stand in;

Ok that's crazy

Rosy Posy · 28-11-2014 11:02am

8-10 wrote: »

Ok that's crazy

In fairness most posters were telling him so!

This blog by a lawyer is brilliant- sharp analysis of the timeline together with the testimony from Jay, Jen and 'Cathy', and Adnan's story.

http://viewfromll2.com/2014/11/23/serial-a-comparison-of-adnans-cell-phone-records-and-the-witness-statements-provided-by-adnan-jay-jenn-and-cathy/

Turtyturd · 28-11-2014 11:37am

Rosy Posy wrote: »

They didn't say. It's a bit intense, that subreddit- people doing nutty things like timing themselves digging a shallow grave, using their gf as a Hae stand in; or expressing outrage at the producers not acknowledging the value of the obsessive online theorising. I like a good tinfoil hat as much as the next person but Sarah and co have been doing this as their job for the last year- they're hardly going to be out sleuthed in a few weeks by a bunch of armchair detectives.

There is an absolute wealth of info including several timelines- there's a good YouTube that someone's made showing Jays timeline on a map. Can't link from my phone for some reason but it's on the links in the subreddit.

Series 2 follows the case of a reddit user who's girlfriend was murdered but he claims they were only reenacting the case from series 1.

podgemonster · 28-11-2014 3:23pm

Rosy Posy wrote: »

In fairness most posters were telling him so!

This blog by a lawyer is brilliant- sharp analysis of the timeline together with the testimony from Jay, Jen and 'Cathy', and Adnan's story.

http://viewfromll2.com/2014/11/23/serial-a-comparison-of-adnans-cell-phone-records-and-the-witness-statements-provided-by-adnan-jay-jenn-and-cathy/

Wow that has really swung me in favour of Jay being guilty again.

There's just so many unknowns, variables, speculations and memory lapses. I really do think Sarah is holding a major interview back for the final few episodes which will remove a lot of hyperbole theories. There's a good few people we have yet to hear from.

Have to say I just got up to date on the podcast and then proceeded to this thread which was a very enjoyable read.

Giruilla · 28-11-2014 4:35pm

Rosy Posy wrote: »

This blog by a lawyer is brilliant- sharp analysis of the timeline together with the testimony from Jay, Jen and 'Cathy', and Adnan's story.

http://viewfromll2.com/2014/11/23/serial-a-comparison-of-adnans-cell-phone-records-and-the-witness-statements-provided-by-adnan-jay-jenn-and-cathy/

I don't know how anyone can read that and be unconvinced of Jay's guilt.

The detectives were so fixated on Adnan they missed the importance of the mistakes Jay was making.

Jay gave the case to them on a plate when he told them he lied "because he thought there were cameras at Best Buy". In other words he thought they would check Best Buy if he mentioned there and see it was him on his own with Hae.
Changed his story back to Best Buy, only at after he was told there was no cameras there by Jenn.

Mr E · 30-11-2014 11:36pm

Caught up over the weekend (lots of driving, and this podcast is great for that!)

I think Jay is shady as f**k. I hope there is some kind of pay off at the end.

If Jay didn't do it, my money is on the girl in the intro who can't pronounce mailchimp.

Rosy Posy · 01-12-2014 1:02am

Mr E wrote: »

Caught up over the weekend (lots of driving, and this podcast is great for that!)

I think Jay is shady as f**k. I hope there is some kind of pay off at the end.

If Jay didn't do it, my money is on the girl in the intro who can't pronounce mailchimp.

Mail.....kimp? I'd say she's scarleh right now. I'm interested in how they're going to go there with Jay without defaming him- they can say he's a liar because there's evidence for that but she's walking the line legally if she speculates. I'm keen to know where the Innocence Project is at with the DNA testing.

Rabo Karabekian · 01-12-2014 5:09pm

Rosy Posy wrote: »

Mail.....kimp? I'd say she's scarleh right now. I'm interested in how they're going to go there with Jay without defaming him- they can say he's a liar because there's evidence for that but she's walking the line legally if she speculates. I'm keen to know where the Innocence Project is at with the DNA testing.

I always thought defamation was a lot harder to do in America but not sure (and not sure if it's different with regards to murder cases).

Interesting to see that 'all important' 2.36 call has been completely discredited (which it essentially was around episode 3 or 4 with Asia's (?) testimony) which means that Jay was (definitely?) lying but then he's been doing that since the beginning. I wonder if the discrediting of this call might not actually harm Adnan's case? As in, could himself and Jay not have committed the acts later on in the day? Not sure how this would work with regards to the timeline.

keane2097 · 02-12-2014 1:26pm

Adnan seems to constantly be on the verge of tripping himself up in the phone interviews and then goes completely silent mid-sentence.

There was an incident in episode 6 where he was complaining about how people say "the Adnan they knew couldn't have done it" and he is half way through saying "sure I was the same Adnan when I did it" before he realises what he's at and stops talking, then makes an awkward direction change in what he was saying.

Unlikely he wasn't heavily involved IMO, although I reckon he shouldn't have been convicted at the time.

Giruilla · 02-12-2014 2:06pm

keane2097 wrote: »

Unlikely he wasn't heavily involved IMO, although I reckon he shouldn't have been convicted at the time.

What did he need Jay's help with, why get him involved?

There is absolutely zero evidence linking Adnan to the murder besides Jay's testimony. Everything else - like saying he's on the verge of tripping himself up - is conjecture.

Yet Jay, knew where the body was buried, how deep the hole was, position of the body, how Hae reacted when she was being killed, used his own shovel to to bury Hae, drove her car and knew where it was parked, lied to the police repeatedly and threw his clothes away the day after the murder. They're the hard facts of the case. And he's walking free.

keane2097 · 02-12-2014 3:28pm

Giruilla wrote: »

What did he need Jay's help with, why get him involved?

There is absolutely zero evidence linking Adnan to the murder besides Jay's testimony. Everything else - like saying he's on the verge of tripping himself up - is conjecture.

Yet Jay, knew where the body was buried, how deep the hole was, position of the body, how Hae reacted when she was being killed, used his own shovel to to bury Hae, drove her car and knew where it was parked, lied to the police repeatedly and threw his clothes away the day after the murder. They're the hard facts of the case. And he's walking free.

Of course it's conjecture.

You're listening to a podcast spinning you a narrative for the last couple of weeks and think anything you think about the case is not part of a yarn?

Giruilla · 02-12-2014 4:06pm

keane2097 wrote: »

Of course it's conjecture.

You're listening to a podcast spinning you a narrative for the last couple of weeks and think anything you think about the case is not part of a yarn?

Considering it's based on real life, with recorded testimonies and evidence available on line, yes I'd think you can make solid assumptions based on facts - not conjecture - that are not part of a "yarn".

Serial

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