Serial

kev1.3s

Have to say I beleive mostly what Jay has to say, maybe he is minimising his own role to some degree but it appears to me that Adnan was the one with his hands around Hay's neck.
There probably wasn't enough evedence to convict to be fair but in my opinion he probably still deserves to be in prison.
The irony is that if he was to have admitted his guilt and shown remorse for his crime he would have gotten out on parole by now, but for me overturning his conviction is more about his personal honour than his freedom.

Rosy Posy

kev1.3s wrote: »

The irony is that if he was to have admitted his guilt and shown remorse for his crime he would have gotten out on parole by now, but for me overturning his conviction is more about his personal honour than his freedom.

Rabia said somewhere that if the appeals are successful they might just let him go with time served rather than try to go to the expense and trouble of a retrial, especially one that would be under such great public scrutiny, which would mean that his name would never be cleared per se but he would still be free. I'd imagine he's pretty much institutionalised now, going straight from being a teenager living with parents to being in prison. If he does get out it'll be a tough adjustment, even before you take into consideration that the eyes of the world will be watching him.

8-10

Jay's getting a huge amount of backlash about these interviews over on Reddit. The "Adnan is innocent" camp is very forceful in their views.

I believe that Adnan did it, but I'm not going to go hounding those who think otherwise. There's a real camp v camp mentality going on that could easily get out of control. People accusing Jay's dad, calling his employer and posting his address and kid's names isn't on really and is very reminiscent of the Boston Bombers incident on Reddit or Spike Lee posting the incorrect address of George Zimmerman on Twitter.

Hopefully nothing gets too out of hand.

Rosy Posy

8-10 wrote: »

Hopefully nothing gets too out of hand.

Apparently people have been sending him messages and driving by his house. In fairness reddit are pretty good about redacting names etc. The wild speculation is a bit ott, especially dragging other people into it, like his family.

FouxDaFaFa

The Intercept and Jay Part 3 (final).

FouxDaFaFa

I have never used the expression "to hell in a handbasket" before but that's exactly where the serial subreddit has gone in the last week or so. It is absolutely brutal. They're casually throwing around extremely serious accusations about Mr. B, who they have named. We're talking accusations that could ruin your life.

The author of The Intercept pieces came on to do a Q&A and got savaged, although she didn't help things much. This is a quote from an interview she did:

...like in The Wire, which all of the delightful white liberals who are creaming over This American Life also adore and cherish

Also, hilariously, one reddit user discovered that there actually was a Westside Hitman. (Not likely to be of much relevance to any of this but I do think it's funny that one of the most ridiculous-sounding bits from the podcast turned out to be true).

Morzadec

Become a bit obsessed with this, just finished today.

Nothing is clear cut here. I feel like both Jay and Adnan could be holding something back and neither are convincing.

If you had to put me on the spot I would say that Adnan probably did do it, and funnily enough it was that Bad Luck Brian meme (Dana's "unlucky" speech) that probably was the final thing to push me towards this side.

But if I were a juror I would have to acquit as the whole thing still seems to be shrouded in mystery.

Side note, if anyone hasn't watched it, if you liked Serial I would highly recommend the documentary 'The Staircase':

Shares a lot of similarities with Serial in that it's a murder case and you get the story in 10 45-minute segments. Similar also in that you're asking yourself throughout, "did he do it?"

The difference is that you see the defence-team in action throughout the documentary and the final scene is the verdict. You have no idea how he will be found until the very end. Thrilling watching (imagine listening to serial and then hearing the verdict of the jury at the end!). Watch it without looking anything up about the case to avoid spoilers

Morzadec

It's funny, after letting this sink in for a few days and reading through the facts of the case again, and a lot of arguments and hypotheses on Reddit, my opinion has become much firmer on Adnan being the guilty party. Probably up to about 90% sure, whereas before I was 60-70% at best.

I think the whole podcast was framed as 'potentially innocent man in jail". Not that I think Koenig tried to twist the truth - I do tend to believe her when she says she is just trying to find out what happened and present the facts.

But as I said, the whole narrative was based around Adnan, and he is the star of the show. It's him who Koenig is predominantly interviewing, and it's first and foremost his story. I do think there's a certain amount of (not deliberate) emotional manipulation going on here for the listener.

Take away this, take away the podcast and look at the facts, and while things are still very murky and I would not rule out other explanations, by far the most likely explanation here is that Adnan did it.

bren2001

Morzadec wrote: »

It's funny, after letting this sink in for a few days and reading through the facts of the case again, and a lot of arguments and hypotheses on Reddit, my opinion has become much firmer on Adnan being the guilty party. Probably up to about 90% sure, whereas before I was 60-70% at best.

I think the whole podcast was framed as 'potentially innocent man in jail". Not that I think Koenig tried to twist the truth - I do tend to believe her when she says she is just trying to find out what happened and present the facts.

But as I said, the whole narrative was based around Adnan, and he is the star of the show. It's him who Koenig is predominantly interviewing, and it's first and foremost his story. I do think there's a certain amount of (not deliberate) emotional manipulation going on here for the listener.

Take away this, take away the podcast and look at the facts, and while things are still very murky and I would not rule out other explanations, by far the most likely explanation here is that Adnan did it.

The biggest problem with it is that the facts are not clear. Koeing never cared whether he was innocent or guilty, she tried to present the facts in a non-bias fashion.

While I think Adnan is guilty, I do believe he was unjustly put away. There was not enough evidence there to convict him. None of the stories make sense.

Real Psycrow

bren2001 wrote: »

The biggest problem with it is that the facts are not clear. Koeing never cared whether he was innocent or guilty, she tried to present the facts in a non-bias fashion.

While I think Adnan is guilty, I do believe he was unjustly put away. There was not enough evidence there to convict him. None of the stories make sense.

And this is the nub of it. Adnan's guilt or innocence is almost secondary in the story. It's all about whether there was actually enough evidence to convict him and if he's lawyer did a good enough job or was she impaired by her illness.

The interviews with Jay really shed a whole new light on things. Everything he says sounds reasonable, although there were a couple of questions he wasn't asked that the report should have brought up, such as why he was so terrified that night in the porn shop. But in general, the interviews and Dana's opinions on Adnan having to be extremely unlucky for all this to happen have made me look at Adnan again as actually being guilty. However, as I said above, his guilt is secondary.

nc6000

I think it's very interesting that Serial never mentions that

someone from the Mosque Adnan went to pleaded the fifth during the trial as they didn't want to incriminate themselves. I wonder what they knew. Jay says in his interview that he thinks this is who made the anonymous call to the police.

FouxDaFaFa

The Intercept now has an interview with the State Prosecutor, Kevin Urick.

I was really excited when Glen Greenwald set up The Intercept but I think this article kind of goes against what it's supposed to be about. I don't think Serial was perfect and I am sure there are things Koenig could have done better but the editors at The Intercept seem to be allowing this weird, spiteful passive-aggressiveness against Koenig and NPR to go on unchecked. (See the little editorial above Urick's interview).

The Black Oil

I've listened to 8 episodes at this point. I wasn't sure after the first, but it improved. It's basically your typical NPR production, well put together.

Amazingfun

FouxDaFaFa wrote: »

The Intercept now has an interview with the State Prosecutor, Kevin Urick.

I was really excited when Glen Greenwald set up The Intercept but I think this article kind of goes against what it's supposed to be about. I don't think Serial was perfect and I am sure there are things Koenig could have done better but the editors at The Intercept seem to be allowing this weird, spiteful passive-aggressiveness against Koenig and NPR to go on unchecked. (See the little editorial above Urick's interview).

I feel the opposite really. I don't find the implied criticism of Koenig to be that vicious. She did leave important data out and looking back upon the whole series it's understandable why she did-it would ruin the story and hence the entertainment factor. And that's ok because at the end of the day this IS entertainment. But should she/Serial be let off having to hear blowback as a result? No.

For me her worst white lie/omission was leaving out the bit in Hae's diary concerning her describing Adnan as possessive. She flat out said Hae didn't say that!

.

Having said that I truly enjoyed Serial and am of course looking forward to the second season

keane2097

So, so guilty.

92cooper

Just starting into Serial now... stupidly addicted already!

callaway92

This has now overtaken Breaking Bad as the most recommended thing by me to others ever!

Amazingfun

"Serial Hits Back"- comments on Urick's assertions in latest interview.

http://www.vulture.com/2015/01/serial-hits-back-on-prosecutors-allegations.html?mid=facebook_vulture

Amazingfun

I love Ryan Ferguson. He is a truly exceptional person and now that he is free is an inspirational one too

You can see his story on 48 Hours and Dateline episodes-

http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/the-accuser/

Here is his take on SERIAL:

http://www.biographile.com/surreal-listening-a-wrongfully-convicted-mans-take-on-serial/38834/?Ref=insyn_corp_bio-tarcher

8-10

Amazingfun wrote: »

"Serial Hits Back"- comments on Urick's assertions in latest interview.

http://www.vulture.com/2015/01/serial-hits-back-on-prosecutors-allegations.html?mid=facebook_vulture

Part 2 still not published due to editors it sounds like:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/intercept-reporters-serial-article-is-762241

FouxDaFaFa

8-10 wrote: »

Part 2 still not published due to editors it sounds like:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/intercept-reporters-serial-article-is-762241

Jesus, they're (Silverstein and Vargas-Cooper) really embarrassing themselves on twitter.

Silverstein tweeted Julie Snyder (Serial producer) saying:

So, Julie @serial. Fast question. Adnan: guilty or not? Pretty easy.

The entire point of Serial is that it is not easy, it is almost impossible to know for sure. The nature of truth, etc.

But anyway, the whole thing is getting dragged off topic after the fact. It's becoming a meta-study in truth in journalism now rather than the legal system.

Rosy Posy

It's really getting dragged into the gutter now. The whole aftermath and reddit sleuthing has taken on a creepy quality. I just watched Nightcrawler and the vibe I get off Jake Gyllenhall's character puts me in mind of this whole thing. It's like Sarah and TAL tried to put together a transparent journalistically integrous piece and both they and their subjects have been ripped apart for it. I do feel for Jay's family. Urick, IMO is a shyster who's not interested in letting the truth get in the way of a good story.

keane2097

Rosy Posy wrote: »

It's really getting dragged into the gutter now. The whole aftermath and reddit sleuthing has taken on a creepy quality. I just watched Nightcrawler and the vibe I get off Jake Gyllenhall's character puts me in mind of this whole thing. It's like Sarah and TAL tried to put together a transparent journalistically integrous piece and both they and their subjects have been ripped apart for it. I do feel for Jay's family. Urick, IMO is a shyster who's not interested in letting the truth get in the way of a good story.

I think you have a fairly naive view of Koenig et al.

Rosy Posy

keane2097 wrote: »

I think you have a fairly naive view of Koenig et al.

They definitely put a spin on it but I think that they did their due diligence and they were very transparent about their personal biases. I'm of the view that true objectivity is impossible so the best way to give the audience a chance to make their own minds up is to be transparent about methodology and acknowledge point of view. I don't think that serial is perfect but I do think that they're doing their level best to preserve journalistic integrity, especially compared to the sloppy fact checking and mudslinging by the interecept, and the wildly libellous speculation and borderline stalking going on on reddit.

Rosy Posy

https://medium.com/@maustermuhle/the-intercepts-serial-trolling-is-mind-boggling-e01c523e0d29

Interesting analysis of the Intercept's stance.

Boom_Bap

I've just blazed through the 12 podcasts in the last 24 hours. In terms of entertainment, it's excellent. I've been following up on some of the other material that has appeared online since and during the podcast was being aired in the past few hours as well.
I'm still chewing it all over, but I'm in the camp of Sarah, there is no evidence provided to suggest innocence or guilt.
My theory that developed through the listening is that Adnan, Jay and Jess were all part of the murder and burying the body. They probably created an alibi, but this got sketchy due to unforseen events, and the search started rapidly not giving them time to iron out the new alibi. Once they got that straight, their stories started to line up but not fully leaving Adnan in the open. I would even go as far as to say that Jay and Jess seen this happening and pointed everything onto Adnan to distance themselves. Once Jay got his pardon, he started speaking more and focused everything on Adnan, and barely mentioned Jess.

But, my other speculation is that there is someone else that somehow manipulated Jay in to helping them hide a body. So everything Jay is saying is true, just replace the name Adnan with X.

The other suspect who they are waiting on DNA evidence to clear is an avenue that needs to be explored, but is pretty much clutching at straws trying to find another suspect.
The items with DNA on it are a bottle and bit of rope in the vacinity of the body, not exactly tied to the murder.

I need to jump into the reddit threads now to see who the new list of suspects are. Also, the producers have other suspects but cant be named because they are still alive.

One thing that sticks to me is how quickly they focused on Adnan, once they got the anonymous tip, the cops dropped everything else and 'had thier man'. This is exactly like something out of 'The Wire' to clear a red name off the board.

nc6000

I see today is the anniversary of the murder of Hae Min Lee. 13th January 1999.

Pedalare Pedalare!

nc6000 wrote: »

I see today is the anniversary of the murder of Hae Min Lee. 13th January 1999.

Came in to post the same. Beaten to it!

nc6000

Adnan will find out today if his case will be considered for an appeal.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/us/adnan-syed-to-have-case-considered-for-appeal-1.2065416

FouxDaFaFa

Part 2 of The Intercept interview with former state prosecutor, Kevin Urick.