Serial

Real Psycrow

Has anyone out there been listening to Serial? I'm half way through the 6th episode in 36 hours and my inner detective is bursting to come out!!!!

simonsays1

Hey,
I'm starting the 5th shortly. I've listened to them these 2 days & can't stop now..... .
It's the top podcast in USA, UK & Australia at the mo I believe....
I'd love to think he is innocent but so hard to say!!!

El Weirdo

Relevent.

simonsays1

Thanks for that, El Weirdo!!

Yeah I'm listening to Slate's pod-cast too which is mentioned in that article...
Glad I'm up to date and have to wait a few days now as I'm getting NO work done.....

leonards

People in USA going nuts/crazy for this.... http://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2014/nov/07/serial-listeners-detectives-troubling-results

padraig_f

I like it, though I feel what's letting it down slightly in later episodes is

that it seems to me the guy Adnan is almost certainly guilty. It would be a bit more intriguing if there was some more doubt.

That's my take anyway, there's no conclusive proof, but the circumstantial evidence seems overwhelming.

I still enjoy the portrait of Baltimore that the story draws, kind of like a mix between Twin Peaks, The Wire and a Sherlock Holmes story.

El Weirdo

padraig_f wrote: »

I like it, though I feel what's letting it down slightly in later episodes is

that it seems to me the guy Adnan is almost certainly guilty. It would be a bit more intriguing if there was some more doubt.

That's my take anyway, there's no conclusive proof, but the circumstantial evidence seems overwhelming.

Are you listening to a different podcast to me?

padraig_f

El Weirdo wrote: »

Are you listening to a different podcast to me?

No need to be so patronising, obviously not.

El Weirdo

padraig_f wrote: »

No need to be so patronising, obviously not.

No need to be so defensive. I was just wondering how you could come to such a conclusion and appear to be so certain.

Real Psycrow

El Weirdo wrote: »

No need to be so defensive. I was just wondering how you could come to such a conclusion and appear to be so certain.

I agree. I can't understand how someone would see him as guilty. The whole thing is built on Jay's testimony that is all over the place. He's very unreliable and very suspicious

FouxDaFaFa

I stumbled on that Guardian article today and came here wondering if anyone was listening to it.

It sounds like a very interesting concept and way of doing journalism. (reminds me of what Lyra McKee is doing with her upcoming book, releasing it chapter by chapter as she investigates).

I don't think the producers were expecting the level of interest its garnered and I'd be torn whether it's good that there's a crowd-sourced pool of knowledge out there or if it's bad to potentially (and unintentionally) create a lynch mob surrounding real people who are still alive and easily found in real life. I was on reddit for the Boston Bombing thing and I still feel sick when I think about Sunil Tripathi's family.

I'm going to listen to Episode 1 later and see for myself.

Rosy Posy

I'm loving this podcast. I'm a long term This American Life listener but the nature of this story and the way it's told make it really gripping. There's a whole subreddit dedicated to it which is pretty intense but has lots of extra information like photos and court records and links to the woman who brought the case to Sarah's attention, Rabia Chaudry's blog.

I'm Adnostic (:D) about whether he did it or not. I want to believe he's innocent. At the very least

the fact that the Innocence Project is taking the case seems to point that the evidence presented should not have been enough to convict him

.

I think one of the most compelling things about this is the way that the outcome is still undecided and it's almost like it's happening in real time.

padraig_f

Why I think he did it...

- Motive (as much as they try to play that down, it's there).
- Opportunity (rang her 3 times the night before, asked for a lift with her that day).
- No alibi.
- Witness claiming he did it, providing a large amount of detail.
- No other real suspect (no evidence of sexual assault seems to make a person unknown to her unlikely).
- His phone hit a cell tower covering Leakin park, where she was buried, at 7pm that night.
- Was confirmed to be with the main witness (Jay) by other people later that night.
- Sketchy evidence. Claims he can't remember a lot about the day, despite it being the day his recent ex-girlfriend went missing.
- Other miscellaneous things like: rang her 3 times the night before, then never tried to contact her after she went missing.

People question Jay, and while there are some inconsistencies, the main part of his story has stayed the same. There are just some inconsistencies with times/locations, which I think are easy to get wrong, especially when you're a stoner.

Jay also told his friend (Jen?) what happened the night Hae Min went missing, so it wasn't like he cooked the story up a week later.

And the main thing probably to me is: what possible motive would Jay have to lie? And what's the coincidence that he constructs this elaborate story and all the other things match, like Adnan having no alibi etc. He's even getting himself in trouble because he becomes an accessory.

Only possible reason is that Jay did it, but they've given no indication that this is the case. It's not even implied so far from Adnan, all he's really said is that Jay's lying.

Tonight's episode was previewed last week as 'the problem with Jay', so maybe we'll find out more in that.

Dots1982

Real Psycrow wrote: »

I agree. I can't understand how someone would see him as guilty.

C'mon

his phone records indicate he's at the remote place the body was found at
the date she disappeared.

Real Psycrow

I'm going to go listen to today's episode before I reply. Before I do, will someone tell me how to do the spoiler masking?

Dubh Geannain

Bloody brilliant. Episode 8 to come tonight. Never followed a serial podcast before.

This is where I heard about it:
http://www.thejournal.ie/serial-podcast-adnan-syed-hae-min-lee-1763134-Nov2014/

Dubh Geannain

Real Psycrow wrote: »

I'm going to go listen to today's episode before I reply. Before I do, will someone tell me how to do the spoiler masking?

"Spoiler" tag is beside the "youtube" tag when your in the message editor. Look along the top of the editor where you can select to Bold, Italicise text etc.

FouxDaFaFa

I'm all caught up.

It is very well done.

I'm curious as to whether there will be any real resolution or "closure" at the end of the series. I think a lot of people are expecting a Scooby Doo style "It was me all along!" scenario, when Hae herself might be the only person able to tell us who killed her.

I was very surprised that (Ep. 7 spoiler)

all members of the team from the Innocence Project believe Adnan to be innocent. And not just "innocent until proven guilty" but completely innocent.

For what it's worth, I personally think Adnan is guilty. But I'm not sure if he should have been found guilty.

I think Koenig was too quick to brush off the argument that Adnan was accustomed to lying due to how well he hid various things from his family and members of his mosque. (Drinking, pot, girls, etc). I wouldn't call it a "double life" but he was comfortable lying to authority figures.

Plus he

calls Hae three times the night before her murder just to give her his new phone number but then never attempts to (personally) contact her when she goes missing for weeks?

I think people were too quick to negatively judge a young Jay versus a mature, prepared Adnan and rally around Adnan because his is the voice they are hearing.

Rosy Posy

FouxDaFaFa wrote: »

I think Koenig was too quick to brush off the argument that Adnan was accustomed to lying due to how well he hid various things from his family and members of his mosque. (Drinking, pot, girls, etc). I wouldn't call it a "double life" but he was comfortable lying to authority figures.

This was an aspect that, as a child of an immigrant family, I really identified with. I think it looks bad for him but it also made me think, if I were accused of something what kind of stuff could be pulled out of the closet to paint a less than favorable picture.

I think the story is wonderfully crafted.

Just when I was ready to paint Jay as the big bad wolf we get the impression of him given in episode 8. I get the feeling the same is going to be done for my changing impression of Adnan in next weeks episode.

For me it's the way our perceptions are manipulated from week to week that's the genius of the thing. I'm staying firmly on the fence til the end although I agree that I doubt there will be a big finale reveal.

Dubh Geannain

FouxDaFaFa wrote: »

Plus he

calls Hae three times the night before her murder just to give her his new phone number but then never attempts to (personally) contact her when she goes missing for weeks?

Although most would think this strange and I do too. I can understand a teenage boy reacting a little more coolly than say Hae's girlfriends would. Did he say he assumed she ran off with her new boyfriend? That's initially. But, as you say, over the course of weeks you really would expect him to try and ring once. Do the police phone records only cover the few days around the murder though?

Disappointed

that Jay wouldn't go on tape. He should be in a much more comfortable place to talk about it now. The reporters said he was very tired. Tired from the days work or tired from years carrying a burden?

I don't believe Jay. I'm not sure what to make of Adnan.

Remember his alibi for the library (the girl he was talking to). But also didn't Jen say that one of Jays versions was that Hae was killed in the library carpark

. But if he was such a masterful liar surely he'd have a much more reliable alibi for the police than "I think I might have been at XYZ".

I don't think the truth will out at any stage in this saga. I wouldn't have said there was enough to put him away but

the independent detective thought otherwise and I guess he'd know better than I.

Questions: Where's the hard forensic evidence like fingerprints? And DNA? 1999 was not the middle ages.

We have a hand print on a map in Hae's car along with 15 other peoples prints.

When's the last episode of this season and how many seasons are they intending to do?

Giruilla

At this stage.. I'm convinced Adnan is guilty, and that Jay got caught up in it afterwards as he says.

The one thing I don't buy, is Adnan saying he doesn't remember the day.. that it was like any other. Everyone else in the story seems to have some recollection of the days events.
I think the reason Adnan is saying he doesn't remember anything to SK, is that it's his best bet to create doubt. He can probably see how complicated the case is with the info SK has given him, and how any story he fabricates of what happened that day could get extremely messy on details and shot down easily. If he was telling the truth he'd have a version of events and stick to that no matter what.

Have a feeling SK is holding something big back though..

FouxDaFaFa

Rosy Posy wrote: »

For me it's the way our perceptions are manipulated from week to week that's the genius of the thing. I'm staying firmly on the fence til the end although I agree that I doubt there will be a big finale reveal.

I agree. One of the most frightening aspects of Serial for me (apart from the obvious) is how easy it is to manipulate people and their perception of an event. To manipulate the listeners of Serial. For a killer to manipulate his friends into believing he would never do such a thing. Remember, both Adnan's and Jay's friends are adamant that they would never do such a thing. But one of them is lying.

Even hearing how the police work, how they routinely "clean up" stories. It's fascinating and unsettling. Because on the one hand, you want to avoid conformation bias. But on the other, you have to present a coherent case that doesn't collapse because of insignificant information.

Dubh Geannain wrote: »

Disappointed

that Jay wouldn't go on tape. He should be in a much more comfortable place to talk about it now. The reporters said he was very tired. Tired from the days work or tired from years carrying a burden?

I share your disappointment but I can't say I'm surprised. We have to keep in mind that Sarah and her team may have been working on this for months and thinking about it every day but

they didn't give Jay notice that they were coming or what they were doing. This could have been the first he'd heard about it in years. I was surprised he was so calm. And I can understand his reluctance to go on tape. He couldn't have anticipated how popular the podcast would become but he must have known it would mean most people in his life (neighbours, colleagues, etc) finding out about a very ugly period of his life. I mean, the most innocent he can be is that he *just* helped move a body. It's pretty bad.

When's the last episode of this season and how many seasons are they intending to do?

There will be 12 episodes and the second season will focus on a different story, which will not be a crime.

Dubh Geannain

Some other theories given in this article:
http://uk.businessinsider.com/the-best-theories-about-the-serial-podcast-2014-11?r=US

The Black Oil

I'll likely check this out given the buzz about it.

Alan Sepinwall has a piece up about it, liked Homicide: LOTS, so I'm intrigued. http://www.hitfix.com/whats-alan-watching/the-city-that-bleeds-on-serial-homicide-the-wire-and-ambiguous-crime-stories

Giruilla

Dubh Geannain wrote: »

Some other theories given in this article:
http://uk.businessinsider.com/the-best-theories-about-the-serial-podcast-2014-11?r=US

I think Jay's testimony is inconsistent because he is an accomplice and he is trying to frame the events in a way that doesn't implicate himself.

^^ That could be it in a nutshell. I think Jay is extremely lucky to escape a jail sentence.

Rosy Posy

Dubh Geannain wrote: »

Questions: Where's the hard forensic evidence like fingerprints? And DNA? 1999 was not the middle ages.

We have a hand print on a map in Hae's car along with 15 other peoples prints.

When's the last episode of this season and how many seasons are they intending to do?

Adnan had been in Hae's car countless times before so the print is spurious. They seem to have done a shoddy job on the forensics which is something that the innocence project are following up on.

They said 'about' 12 episodes per season but if it took a year to research and produce and they're still working on it I doubt they're working on a second season yet so I'd say it will be a while, unless some others of the TAL team are researching something else. There seems to be a lot of outsourcing of stories on TAL lately so this could be the case. My impression is that next season will cover a different story.

It's well worth listening to TAL's Confessions program (Episode 507) for context. There's a whole piece from Jim Tranium, who features in this weeks episode, on witness leading and false confessions that's very interesting.

Standman

Wow, what a riveting podcast!

I am leaning towards Adnan being guilty, but as one of the innocence project people put it, there are mountains of reasonable doubt.

Also people talking a lot about

it being strange that Adnan claims he can't remember the day of the crime when he really should seeing as getting a call from the police saying Hae was missing should have been a big enough of an event to make him remember.

This is something that I actually have some experience with because I had a close friend go missing years ago, and while I can remember the moment I got an identical call with crystal clarity, the rest of the day before and after is a lot more hazy.

I can't remember what day of the week it was or what exactly I did before or that night after the call. Adnan says the same himself, he can remember the call perfectly but not the rest of the day. Given that, I don't think it's as damning as some would suggest.

One thing I do find suspicious is that he didn't attempt to call her after he found out she was missing. I know when my friend was missing I called him myself many times even though I knew my friends were also. If you have a certain relationship with someone, there's always a chance they could be ignoring other calls and may answer yours for whatever reason. In that situation you will try anything and it's very strange that he didn't.

Rosy Posy

Standman wrote: »

One thing I do find suspicious is that he didn't attempt to call her after he found out she was missing. I know when my friend was missing I called him myself many times even though I knew my friends were also. If you have a certain relationship with someone, there's always a chance they could be ignoring other calls and may answer yours for whatever reason. In that situation you will try anything and it's very strange that he didn't.

It was a pager though, not a phone, so all he'd be able to do was to ask her to call him- if she wasn't calling back her best mates she'd hardly call him. Also he says he doesn't remember paging her- he might have done from his house phone. Afaik they looked at his phone records, not hers.

Real Psycrow

Dubh Geannain wrote: »

"Spoiler" tag is beside the "youtube" tag when your in the message editor. Look along the top of the editor where you can select to Bold, Italicise text etc.

Hmmmm.... I actually don't see those options at all. There's nothing over the box I'm typing in and below it I only have the Post Icons bit.

Real Psycrow

FouxDaFaFa wrote: »

For what it's worth, I personally think Adnan is guilty. But I'm not sure if he should have been found guilty.

I think that's key to how this story is going to end. I personally don't think he's guilty, but as a suspect, he should never have been found guilty. There was more than a reasonable doubt that he didn't commit the murder. If they innocence project can create any other plausible narrative, and I think its more than possible to set up a scenario where Jay is the murderer with at least the same amount of "evidence" that convicted Adnan, then they should be able to overturn the conviction

Real Psycrow

The Jay episode did nothing to dissuade me of his guilt. There's a lot of talk of how charming he is etc, which doesn't matter a jot. Adnan seems perfectly charming as well, but he's still in jail. Criminals are more than capable of being charming and guilty at the same time. In fact, Jay seems to have a charisma.

A lot of people who talked about him seemed to suggest he had a presence. He's certainly a liar. The lawyer in the innocence projects said SK would be very unlucky to come across a sociopath in her first case. But maybe she has come across one in Jay. A sociopath will happy change their story from one lie to another even when they're blatantly caught out, stick to the new story and swear its the truth. A sociopath is more than capable of living a seemingly normal life as Jay is currently doing. They're certainly capable of having charisma and persuading people they'd never commit such a terrible crime. If you look at the timeline, I think its significantly more likely that Jay is guilty rather than Adnan.

The lawyer's questioning of Jay "stepping out" with someone on his girlfriend is interesting, as is Jay's admittance that he'd do anything to protect his relationship with her. Maybe he hit on Hae and she refused, threatening to tell Jay's girlfriend. As I said above, it is just as easy to setup a narrative where Jay is the guilty party as it was do setup one for Adnan.

Oh, I figured out the spoilers, just manually typing in the code!

Amazingfun

Looking forward to the next installment. I am a latecomer to it and listened to the first nine podcasts one evening last week- going to be tough now to wait a week between them!

Rosy Posy

Real Psycrow wrote: »

I think that's key to how this story is going to end. I personally don't think he's guilty, but as a suspect, he should never have been found guilty. There was more than a reasonable doubt that he didn't commit the murder. If they innocence project can create any other plausible narrative, and I think its more than possible to set up a scenario where Jay is the murderer with at least the same amount of "evidence" that convicted Adnan, then they should be able to overturn the conviction

Apparently not, once he's been found guilty it's pretty much impossible to get him out without new evidence to exonerate him or an alternative perpetrator...according to lots of legal people on reddit anyway.

Dubh Geannain

Okay now I think Adnan didn't kill Hae it and had nothing to do with it

The latest episode has punched more holes in the poilce's timeline. I'd already huge doubts with Jay's story but I expected the police would have scrutinised its finer details because that's the least they would have expected from the (****ty) defence team.

Two week break for Thanksgiving! NNN:eek::eek::eek::eek:!!

The call he received in Jay's friends apartment now looks like it might have been from Hae's sister. Although highlighted before it really does seem there was no phone booth at the Best Buy. My thinking that it may have happened in the library carpark is dismissed so readily due to its non-discrete location that I'm out of ideas of how Adnan could have done it as Jay's story is shot to pieces and him getting a suspicious phone call is explained. Then ringing the police station to tell them they got the wrong Asian. Why would he bring himself to the cops attention?

It's amazing the way the story is evolving as it goes along as listeners get in contact with the show.

Also -

When the second lawyer in the appeal stood up and asked for it to be considered a "Crime of Passion". If I was Adnan I would have flipped out there and then.

Rosy Posy

I'm really mindful of the way that the story's being told and how that manipulates the listener's perception of the case. I think it's madness the people on reddit who are 100% convinced either way- I'm just going along the journey that Sarah is taking us on and trying to remain objective. I think it's pretty obvious that things didn't happen in exactly the way they were set out in the prosecution and that Jay had some involvement. Other than that I'm open to what unfolds over the final three installments. This episode was one of my favorites- really emotionally articulate in relation to Adnan and Hae. I also think it was powerful that we heard so much from Adnan after not hearing him at all for the last two weeks, and from him being somewhat hostile in the previous episode.

Dubh Geannain

I'd agree. One of my favourite episodes too. In no small part because of the new information coming to light from people getting in contact with Sarah after listening to the show.

My opinion may well change again but Adnan is unflappable in his denial. So unless some more testimonies come to light in the next three episodes (and given the show's form there probably will be). I am firmly in his camp. I'm not 100% sure he didn't do it. But I am 100% sure that he shouldn't be in prison based on the evidence we know.

FouxDaFaFa

Dubh Geannain wrote: »

It's amazing the way the story is evolving as it goes along as listeners get in contact with the show.

Yes, I thought it was interesting that this was the first episode we saw that contained information brought about by the existence of the podcast itsefl. It adds a whole new layer to it.

One the one hand, the podcast brings it back into the public consciousness and may encourage someone to think "Oh, I have accurate information and I should tell Sarah". But it may also encourage those who want their 15 minutes, who want to exonerate Adnan using a public forum in the hopes he'll be released or who want to condemn him for the same reasons.

I think the information given to Sarah was probably accurate but it's worth bearing in mind that people could be aiming to please or have ulterior motives.

I enjoyed the episode, especially how it humanised Hae. We haven't heard much about her and at a time when people are getting too into this and posting Sarah and Dana's phone numbers on reddit, it's helpful to bring people back down to earth and remind them that they're dealing with real people.

I wasn't hugely surprised by the revelations, except maybe that

Adnan called the police.

I think it's always been clear that Jay was lying about the timeline but the fact that Hae

died later may actually be bad for Adnan because there is undisputable evidence that Adnan was with Jay later in the day.

FouxDaFaFa

Two interesting links:
The Complicated Ethics of "Serial", the most popular podcast of all time

CBS interview with Adnan's mother and brother

Giruilla

Giruilla wrote: »

At this stage.. I'm convinced Adnan is guilty, and that Jay got caught up in it afterwards as he says.

The one thing I don't buy, is Adnan saying he doesn't remember the day.. that it was like any other. Everyone else in the story seems to have some recollection of the days events.
I think the reason Adnan is saying he doesn't remember anything to SK, is that it's his best bet to create doubt. He can probably see how complicated the case is with the info SK has given him, and how any story he fabricates of what happened that day could get extremely messy on details and shot down easily. If he was telling the truth he'd have a version of events and stick to that no matter what.

Have a feeling SK is holding something big back though..

I wrote this before, but have to say I've gone full circle after listening to all the eps, then re-listening back a few and am now convinced it was Jay. 90% sure.. the Nisha call is still a problem for Adnan.

Amazingfun

I swayed a little bit over to the 'Jay did it' camp the course of the series but as of now I still think Adnan did it with a lot of help from Jay. Someone on Reddit suggested Adnan's reluctance to ever admit he did it might have to do with his family honor/friends finding out. It would be too awful for him to tell them and is why he won't spill the beans on Jay's role.

I think Jay just got to the police first before Adnan got any clever ideas and tried to pin it on him.

Giruilla

Amazingfun wrote: »

I swayed a little bit over to the 'Jay did it' camp the course of the series but as of now I still think Adnan did it with a lot of help from Jay. Someone on Reddit suggested Adnan's reluctance to ever admit he did it might have to do with his family honor/friends finding out. It would be too awful for him to tell them and is why he won't spill the beans on Jay's role.

I think Jay just got to the police first before Adnan got any clever ideas and tried to pin it on him.

The idea that Adnan would decide to murder Hae during the time he knows she'll be picking her cousin up and will be noticed missing straight away is extremely unlikely. Not only that, but to decide to murder Hae - like Jay says - and choose strangulation as the method is nuts.
Jay's motive and method on the other hand all fit
http://www.splitthemoon.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Adnan-statement-re-Hae-and-Jay-cheating-to-paralegal.png (Notes from the defense attorney)

FouxDaFaFa

What motivation would Jay have, though? Money? Or that he just happened to be there during a crime of passion and felt he was involved because of that?

I have no doubt that Jay was involved, probably more heavily than he let on but it's always been confusing to me why he would do that for Adnan. They weren't even very close friends.

Could it all be down to his fear and distrust of the police? He mentioned in one of the recorded interviews that he had been grabbed outside his house one day, shoved on the ground, etc and I think he said it was the police who did it. And there is a certain "don't trust the police, ever" mantra in some communities in America. I mean, look at what's happening in Ferguson right now.

Someone found that picture of the girl who looks like Hae from the magazine that Sarah referenced in episode 9.

Giruilla

FouxDaFaFa wrote: »

What motivation would Jay have, though? Money? Or that he just happened to be there during a crime of passion and felt he was involved because of that?

Highly probable Hae confronted Jay about his infidelities (possibly with Jenn) and told him she would be telling Stephanie. Jay lost it and strangled her.

Strangulation is such a risky form of murder.. if you were planning on murdering someone - like Jay testifies that Adnan is doing - why not stab, or blunt force. Or why not plan it better than murdering someone in a car park.

The whole case shouts unpremeditated murder.. and Jay's story, confused about what to do, calling to Cathy's, reflects this.
Jay admitted the shovel used to bury Hae was his.. he went back to wipe his finger prints off it. He then burned his clothes afterwards!

Amazingfun

Giruilla wrote: »

The idea that Adnan would decide to murder Hae during the time he knows she'll be picking her cousin up and will be noticed missing straight away is extremely unlikely. Not only that, but to decide to murder Hae - like Jay says - and choose strangulation as the method is nuts.
Jay's motive and method on the other hand all fit
http://www.splitthemoon.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Adnan-statement-re-Hae-and-Jay-cheating-to-paralegal.png (Notes from the defense attorney)

Yeah I saw that post from Rabia Choudry before. Meh.
Not enough for me to pin it all on Jay.

I think Adnan got angry and with Hae and lost control. Others have posited the theory that the library was where he killed her and it sounds plausible to me.

Amazingfun

FouxDaFaFa wrote: »

What motivation would Jay have, though? Money? Or that he just happened to be there during a crime of passion and felt he was involved because of that?

I have no doubt that Jay was involved, probably more heavily than he let on but it's always been confusing to me why he would do that for Adnan. They weren't even very close friends.

Could it all be down to his fear and distrust of the police? He mentioned in one of the recorded interviews that he had been grabbed outside his house one day, shoved on the ground, etc and I think he said it was the police who did it. And there is a certain "don't trust the police, ever" mantra in some communities in America. I mean, look at what's happening in Ferguson right now.

Someone found that picture of the girl who looks like Hae from the magazine that Sarah referenced in episode 9.

I do think there is something to Jay's previous claim that he was the rumored "criminal element" in their circle and is why Adnan got him on board. Maybe his drug dealing and the mistrust of the police you mention figure in too.

I always try to remember what it was like to be 17 years old and how much reputation and being cool meant. Perhaps all of this tied into it but when the reality of what they'd done hit home....and Jenn was getting scared she was going to be charged with something in connection with the murder.....he ran to the police with his version first.

FouxDaFaFa

Giruilla wrote: »

Highly probable Hae confronted Jay about his infidelities (possibly with Jenn) and told him she would be telling Stephanie. Jay lost it and strangled her.

Strangulation is such a risky form of murder.. if you were planning on murdering someone - like Jay testifies that Adnan is doing - why not stab, or blunt force. Or why not plan it better than murdering someone in a car park.

The whole case shouts unpremeditated murder.. and Jay's story, confused about what to do, calling to Cathy's, reflects this.
Jay admitted the shovel used to bury Hae was his.. he went back to wipe his finger prints off it. He then burned his clothes afterwards!

Possible. But would she do this when she was short for time to collect her cousin?

And this is the day that Jay just so happens to have Adnan's car and phone?

If Jay acted alone, the logistics of moving cars get crazy. Say, he killed Hae. He needs to move her car so he has to leave Adnan's car behind somewhere. Once he's dumped Hae's car, how does he get back to Adnan's car? Walking? It doesn't fit for me.

On the second bit in bold, I would disagree. As you say, it's unusual to "plan" to strangle someone. It's usually a crime of passion, using the only weapon you actually have on hand at the time - yourself.

Giruilla

Amazingfun wrote: »

I think Adnan got angry and with Hae and lost control.

You realise that this isn't the reason Jay testified Adnan killed Hae?
Jay's whole story is that Adnan premeditatively murdered Hae.
Yet you'd still believe Adnan killed Hae which is based almost solely on Jay's testimony.

Real Psycrow

FouxDaFaFa wrote: »

What motivation would Jay have, though? Money? Or that he just happened to be there during a crime of passion and felt he was involved because of that?

I think its more than possible that Jay came onto Hae and she rejected him and whether she threatened to tell Stephanie or not, Jay was fearful she would so strangled her. The lawyers reference to what lengths he'd go to to not jeopardise his relationship with Stephanie and the possibility of him playing away point to that too.

However, Rather than finding a killer when we might not know all the facts yet because of the way the podcast is being presented, I think the real question is was there enough evidence to convict Adnan regardless of his guilt and regardless of the extent of Jay's involvement.

Giruilla

FouxDaFaFa wrote: »

Possible. But would she do this when she was short for time to collect her cousin?

She wasn't. School finished at 2.15, and she only had to collect her cousin at 3.15.

FouxDaFaFa wrote: »

And this is the day that Jay just so happens to have Adnan's car and phone?

That was a regular occurrence apparently. Jay picked Adnan up for football regularly and Jay didn't have a phone.

FouxDaFaFa wrote: »

On the second bit in bold, I would disagree. As you say, it's unusual to "plan" to strangle someone. It's usually a crime of passion, using the only weapon you actually have on hand at the time - yourself.

Jay testified that the murder was premeditated so it wasn't a crime of passion. He had the intention to kill before hand, he wasn't just left with his only weapon being his hands.

Giruilla

FouxDaFaFa wrote: »

If Jay acted alone, the logistics of moving cars get crazy. Say, he killed Hae. He needs to move her car so he has to leave Adnan's car behind somewhere. Once he's dumped Hae's car, how does he get back to Adnan's car? Walking? It doesn't fit for me.

He repeatedly called Jenn for a lift that day.

Amazingfun

Giruilla wrote: »

You realise that this isn't the reason Jay testified Adnan killed Hae?
Jay's whole story is that Adnan premeditatively murdered Hae.
Yet you'd still believe Adnan killed Hae which is based almost solely on Jay's testimony.

But it's not solely on that. It's mainly circumstantial. The timeline of Adnan's activities that day etc.

I know what Jay said but I still think Adnan lost it with her. We all know Jay told a tale that allowed him to essentially wash his hands of any real responsibility but it doesn't mean he wasn't involved.
I ought to make clear I am no 'serial supersleuth' (I came into this quite late and binged-listened nine episodes in a day lol). The theories I've discussed here have been made by some on Reddit and the Slate serial podcast. It just rings true to me.