41 new ICR centre cars

L1011 · 02-11-2019 10:25am

It's not specifically a standing area, it's also wheelchair (and bikes by the looks of things)

Jamie2k9 · 02-11-2019 6:34pm

IE 222 wrote: »

I think it's a big mistake doing away with the 5 car formations. A lot of them 3&4 cars will likely have to work in pairs, drastically reducing the number of available sets. 5 cars are perfect for the likes of Waterford, Sligo, Westport and even PPT with the extra standing room.

Will they be able to turn some of the new cars so they could have one large standing area in the centre instead of 2 separate areas.

60 options are good, be interesting to see if they'll pursue this. Maybe creating options for a future Enterprise replacement/expansion. I think they could of negotiated for 45 cars, extra 4 driving cars, with the extra €50 million especially as they've the 60 options which includes driving cars.

There will be 22x6 car units that's 7 more than they had before. The problem with 5 car's would reduce flexibility of the fleet. The extra 6 car will reduce doubling up of units. Using Fri afternoon as an example instead of using 8 3 car sets to Galway/Waterford they can use 4 6 car sets plus increase capacity by circa 40 seats plus the existing 4x5 car services get circa 70 extra seats.

IE 222 · 04-11-2019 2:19pm

In terms of flexibility 5 car sets may limit things somewhat but they also need to think of capacity. There is massive difference between 4 and 6 car sets. Demand will keep growing and a lot of the rostered 4 car services will need boosting.

Some of the Waterford, Cork and Limerick pairings will remain and still be required as the sets are split on arrival to run other or add extra return services from the said locations. I think we'll also see a growth in the demand for 7 car formations on certain services by the time these arrive also.

Ireland trains · 04-11-2019 5:09pm

Just out of curiosity,
how much 7 car services is there on a typical weekday
and out of that number, how much of them are there due to capacity required, rather than just splitting sets.
Cheers

IE 222 · 04-11-2019 8:40pm

Ireland trains wrote: »

Just out of curiosity,
how much 7 car services is there on a typical weekday
and out of that number, how much of them are there due to capacity required, rather than just splitting sets.
Cheers

Not sure, I think I heard the number 5 been put about. Sounds about right. I think Sligo has 1 and 2 or 3 peak Drogheda/Dundalk services are formed with 7 car. I think one goes to Cork to split for the morning non stop ex Cork service, not sure if its technically used for capacity out of Dublin.

man98 · 05-11-2019 2:58am

IE 222 wrote: »

Not sure, I think I heard the number 5 been put about. Sounds about right. I think Sligo has 1 and 2 or 3 peak Drogheda/Dundalk services are formed with 7 car. I think one goes to Cork to split for the morning non stop ex Cork service, not sure if its technically used for capacity out of Dublin.

The 7 car is the 21.00 service, that's not a capacity reason.
Believe the 17.30 Heuston - Galway service is also 7 car.

Jamie2k9 · 05-11-2019 10:12am

7 Car services I think:
12.45 Westport (splits for return)
13.25 Galway (splits for return)
14.45 Westport FO (splits for return)
15.05 Sligo FO
17.10 Sligo
18.05 Portlaoise
18.15 Westport FO (splits for return in Athlone over weekend)
19.35 Galway
21.00 Cork

Then there is possibly 2 at Connolly doing Maynooth/N Commuter.

IE 222 · 05-11-2019 12:53pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

7 Car services I think:
12.45 Westport (splits for return)
13.25 Galway (splits for return)
14.45 Westport FO (splits for return)
15.05 Sligo FO
17.10 Sligo
18.05 Portlaoise
18.15 Westport FO (splits for return in Athlone over weekend)
19.35 Galway
21.00 Cork

Then there is possibly 2 at Connolly doing Maynooth/N Commuter.

Going off that list it seems only 2 maybe 3 do a return service as a 7car. I think there is 3 doing Connolly peak services.

theguzman · 05-11-2019 10:01pm

Iarnrod Eireann have quiet alot of GM 201 Locomotives mothballed in Inchicore, I understand some of them were forward only and not bi-directional. Could these not get a refurbish and buy in say 80 new carriages and roll out some new trains again. Put a 201 at either end to solve the push pull issue or use turntables.

IE 222 · 05-11-2019 10:32pm

theguzman wrote: »

Iarnrod Eireann have quiet alot of GM 201 Locomotives mothballed in Inchicore, I understand some of them were forward only and not bi-directional. Could these not get a refurbish and buy in say 80 new carriages and roll out some new trains again. Put a 201 at either end to solve the push pull issue or use turntables.

They were bi-directional running. They've a cab at each end. They weren't push pulled equipped. There is 10 stored 201s. Some have been mothballed beyond use to keep the current in service ones running. At most they could probably return 4 or 5 of them to service, at a very high cost. Even if coaching stock could be found there is enough locos in service to cover it. The full fleet of 071s is still operating.

I fail to see what the benefit is in ordering a whole new fleets of coaches instead of ordering extra rolling stock of the current operational fleet. If cheap second hand coaches became available for a short term lease it would be worth looking into but not purchasing a brand new fleet.

L1011 · 06-11-2019 8:21am

theguzman wrote: »

Iarnrod Eireann have quiet alot of GM 201 Locomotives mothballed in Inchicore, I understand some of them were forward only and not bi-directional. Could these not get a refurbish and buy in say 80 new carriages and roll out some new trains again. Put a 201 at either end to solve the push pull issue or use turntables.

Cost and lead time would be nearly identical if not more

seagoebox · 06-11-2019 9:17am

The very premature scrapping of the 100+ strong fleet of Mark 3's was an absolute disgrace. There were many many years of useful life left in them, but no, IE as usual wasted the capital cost in the rush to take them out of service.
The Mark 3 is still running in the UK providing excellent service, as usual for Irish Rail anything that works well anywhere else has to be re-invented and stuff the cost.
If only half of the Mark 3's had been kept it would help plug the present rolling stock deficiency, only the number of long-term stored 201's in Inchicore are not able to haul them, yet another example of corporate wastage by IE.

MrAbyss · 06-11-2019 5:20pm

seagoebox wrote: »

The very premature scrapping of the 100+ strong fleet of Mark 3's was an absolute disgrace.

They are gone forever and not coming back. Move on.

seagoebox · 06-11-2019 5:25pm

try and deny free speech, surely you can be more constructive!

end of the road · 06-11-2019 5:46pm

MrAbyss wrote: »

They are gone forever and not coming back. Move on.

nope not move on as it was a disgraceful waste of tax payers money which should never be forgotten, and which has left the railway hugely under capacity.

Okon · 06-11-2019 6:44pm

MrAbyss wrote: »

They are gone forever and not coming back.

... doesn't make it any less of a wasteful and myopic decision.

dowlingm · 07-11-2019 1:10am

There was for and against it.

IE wanted to go push pull and not have runaround or turntable to maintain but the Mark 3 fleet was either non push pull aircon or non aircon pushpull. I think if memory serves they also did not have toilet tanks. All fixable but for €€€.

There was reportedly a pushback by locals when Mark 3s were proposed for Sligo also.

Add to that the 201s were limited on parts of the network, the DMUs have performance advantages as well as being streets ahead emissions wise with the modern engines and the selective shutoff, and the Mark 3s did not meet modern accessibility standards, weren’t plumbed for reservation/wifi etc.

Remember too that while the Mark 3 coaches were scrapped, several EGVs ended up on Enterprise sets.

DoctorPan · 07-11-2019 10:59am

Speaking to Irish Rail fitters at the time, the Mk3s were knackered and a trouble to keep going with rust corrosion a major problem.

Looking at the Uk, at the cost and time overruns spent on the Mk3 overhauls shows that IE were at the time, right in the decision to go to the DMU side of things.

goingnowhere · 07-11-2019 1:39pm

There is a valid question as to why 4-6 sets were not kept, there were on paper 20 odd sets. Pick the best, refurb. Good enough to roll out for GAA specials but the accessibility works costs are shocking if you wanted to operate them in public scheduled use. Doors need replacing, toilets need to be accessible, PIS, CCTV, new AC gear

All Mk3's were hand built so the UK has learned the hard way modern precise engineering doesn't work well.

The numbers were crunched and 51 ICR coaches were provided to replace the MK3 PP fleet, it was cheaper on life cycle cost to buy 51 than refurb the 25 we had.

Had that not occurred we would be stuck with clapped out Mk3 coaches, limited to 70mph and accessibility a mess

IE 222 · 07-11-2019 2:27pm

goingnowhere wrote: »

There is a valid question as to why 4-6 sets were not kept, there were on paper 20 odd sets. Pick the best, refurb. Good enough to roll out for GAA specials but the accessibility works costs are shocking if you wanted to operate them in public scheduled use. Doors need replacing, toilets need to be accessible, PIS, CCTV, new AC gear

All Mk3's were hand built so the UK has learned the hard way modern precise engineering doesn't work well.

The numbers were crunched and 51 ICR coaches were provided to replace the MK3 PP fleet, it was cheaper on life cycle cost to buy 51 than refurb the 25 we had.

Had that not occurred we would be stuck with clapped out Mk3 coaches, limited to 70mph and accessibility a mess

Totally agree with this. The push/pull fleet should of been kept for specials ect.

The rest were surplus to requirements as to was the 2700s and both were out of service for the guts of 10 years before any talk of extra rolling stock was put out there. It took IE nearly 4 years to remove MK3s from service once the ICR started to arrive and another 3 years to scrap them so I disagree with any suggestion that they rushed to get rid of them.

We may of gotten away without having the ICR fleet through the recession years but we would be in an awful state now if hadn't ordered them when we did.

The accessible access was a key factor in this also as all public transport was going this way.

Geuze · 20-11-2019 11:13am

41 coaches for 150m seems very dear, no?

I thought EMU vehicles were about 1.5 each, maybe 2m tops?

L1011 · 20-11-2019 11:39am

Geuze wrote: »

41 coaches for 150m seems very dear, no?

I thought EMU vehicles were about 1.5 each, maybe 2m tops?

These are diesel/electric hybrid vehicles to a completely custom spec.

loyatemu · 20-11-2019 12:27pm

L1011 wrote: »

These are diesel/electric hybrid vehicles to a completely custom spec.

aren't they going to be dropped into regular diesel sets though - what benefit is the hybrid providing in this case?

end of the road · 20-11-2019 3:09pm

loyatemu wrote: »

aren't they going to be dropped into regular diesel sets though - what benefit is the hybrid providing in this case?

perhapse the long term plan is to refurbish the regular diesel sets with the same modules.

L1011 · 20-11-2019 3:11pm

loyatemu wrote: »

aren't they going to be dropped into regular diesel sets though - what benefit is the hybrid providing in this case?

The first hybrid drive packs for the existing fleet have been ordered, but there would still be benefit for the individual unit anyway

Geuze · 20-11-2019 7:37pm

L1011 wrote: »

These are diesel/electric hybrid vehicles to a completely custom spec.

Might somebody briefly explain what this means?

Typically DMUs have an engine under every unit, or some of the units in the train?

Like a 4car DMU might have 2 or 4 engines, underfloor?

Does each car in the ICRs have an underfloor engine?

goingnowhere · 20-11-2019 8:07pm

Each coach was an engine MTU 6H 1800

Current config
Engine + Voith hydraulic drive + retarder

Current test config
Engine + ZF gearbox

Future
Engine + ZF gearbox + generator/motor
+ battery pack

All the above fit in the same engine raft so its a unbolt, lift out, lift in, bolt in pretty much bar some software change. The hybrid drive requires a battery, it charges under braking and can be used to move the train without the engine running or can be used with the engine to give a boost under acceleration.

L1011 · 20-11-2019 8:46pm

Geuze wrote: »

Might somebody briefly explain what this means?

Typically DMUs have an engine under every unit, or some of the units in the train?

Like a 4car DMU might have 2 or 4 engines, underfloor?

Does each car in the ICRs have an underfloor engine?

Answer above gives more detail than I could have on the ICR config

The days of unpowered trailers in multiple units are going out (you can still get them if you wanted) as it increases the risk of an entire train failing if there's engine issues. I believe all Irish Rail DMUs are engine-per-car, even the 25 year old 2600s.

You can often tell when an engine has packed in on a 29000 because you're in an incredibly quiet, non-vibrating car in the middle of a set!

highdef · 21-11-2019 10:07am

goingnowhere wrote: »

Had that not occurred we would be stuck with clapped out Mk3 coaches, limited to 70mph and accessibility a mess

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought it was just the control cars that were limited to 70mph (I remember something about them being from DART units or something like that). A bogie change for the control cars could hardly be that big a job??? I know it's not happening anyway so this is all just hypothetical ramblings.

thewexman93 · 21-11-2019 1:12pm

How on Earth does it cost over 3.5million to purchase a railway carriage?

At that price we should be making them ourselves, and create a few jobs in the process

goingnowhere · 21-11-2019 1:30pm

highdef wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought it was just the control cars that were limited to 70mph (I remember something about them being from DART units or something like that). A bogie change for the control cars could hardly be that big a job??? I know it's not happening anyway so this is all just hypothetical ramblings.

Bogies were the easiest problem to get fixed and was fixed, 3 of the 5 ran on DART bogies as they were on hand at no cost, the last 2 came with BT22 bogies and the first 3 were upgraded late in their lives.

Two problems
1. Structural strength, major work was needed to upgrade the cab end to permit higher speeds (remember the Mk3pp was a hand made Inchicore economy solution to lack of funding for a DMU fleet)

2. Brake force, the push pulls were limited to 6 coaches due the generator supply. In hauled mode 90mph was permitted in certain cases but the push pull is what was needed for efficient operation. Even the Mk4 fleet has a speed limit if in short formation. The ICR's have EP brakes so train length is no factor

L1011 · 21-11-2019 1:31pm

thewexman93 wrote: »

How on Earth does it cost over 3.5million to purchase a railway carriage?

At that price we should be making them ourselves, and create a few jobs in the process

It would cost vastly more to make them ourselves and we'd need to lay off all the staff when the order was complete.

The engine, transmission and battery pack - which are being purchased from MTU/ZF/Rolls Royce - would make up a sizeable element of the cost.

Jamie2k9 · 21-11-2019 1:42pm

No questions this is not good value. The short term fix was a good idea in 2016 its lost all of its purpose since. These coaches will have little impact on overcrowding.

Now lets see how much of a mess NTA make of the next order...

Battery packs are not exactly “green” and bi-mode fleet for GDA isn't either.

Jamie2k9 · 21-11-2019 2:02pm

L1011 wrote: »

It would cost vastly more to make them ourselves and we'd need to lay off all the staff when the order was complete.

The engine, transmission and battery pack - which are being purchased from MTU/ZF/Rolls Royce - would make up a sizeable element of the cost.

New fleet of DMU with ability to convert to EMU in future would deliver a cheaper costs per carriage and meet the needs of commuter traffic.

NTA are trying to fool the public that battery power is great plus give an impression rail transport isn't green now. Its just a smoke screen for inaction by them and Government with electrification plus providing new PT to reduce dependency on cars.

thewexman93 · 21-11-2019 2:14pm

The old push pull fleet would be able to release some of the current strain and allow more modern stock to be used on busier and faster routes.

For example, if the best 12 carriages could have been preserved then they could operate in 2's or 3's on some of the lesser used routes such as Limerick/ballybrophy or Limerick/Waterford, or Limerick/athenry. This would free up some sets for use on overcrowded routes in high demand.

A commuter set sits nearly all day in the yard in Waterford after it's early morning work, waiting to operate on the waterford/Limerick route in the evening. Such a waste of limited resources. A loco and even 1 old coach would be able to do this job

end of the road · 21-11-2019 5:28pm

thewexman93 wrote: »

The old push pull fleet would be able to release some of the current strain and allow more modern stock to be used on busier and faster routes.

For example, if the best 12 carriages could have been preserved then they could operate in 2's or 3's on some of the lesser used routes such as Limerick/ballybrophy or Limerick/Waterford, or Limerick/athenry. This would free up some sets for use on overcrowded routes in high demand.

A commuter set sits nearly all day in the yard in Waterford after it's early morning work, waiting to operate on the waterford/Limerick route in the evening. Such a waste of limited resources. A loco and even 1 old coach would be able to do this job

agreed theoretically, but to be fair a loco and 1 carrage would be an even bigger waste.
had the mk3 remained, then realy sticking them on galway, direct limericks and possibly increase belfast to hourly would have been a much better use.
all hypothetical now of course.

Political Wall Map · 22-11-2019 12:46am

L1011 wrote: »

It would cost vastly more to make them ourselves and we'd need to lay off all the staff when the order was complete.

The engine, transmission and battery pack - which are being purchased from MTU/ZF/Rolls Royce - would make up a sizeable element of the cost.

Some of the cost would be due to compatibility modifications to the existing fleet as the goal is to install the new cars into existing sets.

Making sure old and new are compatible will take up some of the additional costs.

IE would have hundreds of modifications since the fleet was introduced. These modifications would have to be completed by Rotem.

Also the problem of fitting in everything on the underside of the cars. I suspect there will be space issues with the power packs and aux equipment such as battery packs and transformers. Definitely will be on the existing sets. maybe not so much on the new builds.

But it would seem that 2.5 mill per car and then the rest is a mix of making sure the new are compatible with the old, and Rotem realizing that IE are desperate for a quick solution to the capacity issue and whacking an extra few percent onto the price.

Idbatterim · 22-11-2019 12:56am

lads was there a public consultation or ten on these new carriages? what is the general public, the experts they are on all things transport related, have issues with them? what if somebody will be offended by the colour of them?

Del.Monte · 22-11-2019 1:10am

Idbatterim wrote: »

lads was there a public consultation or ten on these new carriages? what is the general public, the experts they are on all things transport related, have issues with them? what if somebody will be offended by the colour of them?

The public will be the last people considered by CIE in the design, colour or anything else to do with vehicles used to transport their customers.

end of the road · 22-11-2019 1:11am

Idbatterim wrote: »

lads was there a public consultation or ten on these new carriages?

no, why would there be?

Idbatterim wrote: »

what is the general public, the experts they are on all things transport related, have issues with them? what if somebody will be offended by the colour of them?

has anyone expressed that they are offended with the color of the existing fleet of which the new carrages will be a part of?
the carrages will be perfectly fine for the routes they are actually designed for once they are eventually released to them.

theguzman · 22-11-2019 1:19am

I personally think that pushing this green technology into trains is the height of stupidity and economic madness. If we still had steam engine's burning coal it is still better for the Environment than having all those passengers driving.

Diesel Electric DMU's in their current format are incredibly green and all these new technologies will lead to us to a situation like modern cars with lower reliability and increased breakdowns. Fix it until its broke seems to be the mantra.

Electrification is the answer if you wanted to possibly add even more green credentials to trains or a dual electric Diesel running for a mixture of electrified and non electrified track. Operating battery trains like Irish Rail are planning is worse the environment due to the awful eco effects of Lithium mining; the majority of our Electricity is primarily produced from fossil fuel so you just relocate those emissions from the train to a Power Plant smokestack somewhere else.

What is needed in Irish Rail is unions banned, extra trains, electrification, double tracking and timetables that suit, new routes and potential outsourcing of important decisions away from the jobs for life and the disgraceful management within Iarnrod Eireann.

end of the road · 22-11-2019 1:32am

theguzman wrote: »

What is needed in Irish Rail is unions banned,

well no, such is not needed and won't be happening.

theguzman wrote: »

potential outsourcing of important decisions away from the jobs for life and the disgraceful management within Iarnrod Eireann.

that took place years ago, they are called the NTA.
the company of course are going to have to have some input given they are running the railway and do have the expertese on rail operations.

Political Wall Map · 22-11-2019 10:46am

theguzman wrote: »

I personally think that pushing this green technology into trains is the height of stupidity and economic madness. If we still had steam engine's burning coal it is still better for the Environment than having all those passengers driving.

Diesel Electric DMU's in their current format are incredibly green and all these new technologies will lead to us to a situation like modern cars with lower reliability and increased breakdowns. Fix it until its broke seems to be the mantra.

Electrification is the answer if you wanted to possibly add even more green credentials to trains or a dual electric Diesel running for a mixture of electrified and non electrified track. Operating battery trains like Irish Rail are planning is worse the environment due to the awful eco effects of Lithium mining; the majority of our Electricity is primarily produced from fossil fuel so you just relocate those emissions from the train to a Power Plant smokestack somewhere else.

What is needed in Irish Rail is unions banned, extra trains, electrification, double tracking and timetables that suit, new routes and potential outsourcing of important decisions away from the jobs for life and the disgraceful management within Iarnrod Eireann.

Its nothing to do with Green. Its about fuel savings, and more reliable powerpacks.....

Jamie2k9 · 22-11-2019 11:18am

Political Wall Map wrote: »

Its nothing to do with Green. Its about fuel savings, and more reliable powerpacks.....

How many years will it take to generate these "fuel savings" in costs once the capital spend has been deducted. I honestly dons't think there is a major reliability issue with power packs on ICRs. There is no need for any changes to the fleet or at least right now when there are bigger issues.

personally think that pushing this green technology into trains is the height of stupidity and economic madness. If we still had steam engine's burning coal it is still better for the Environment than having all those passengers driving.

Good for a photo opportunity pretending to do something while doing nothing at the same time.

Captain Chaos · 22-11-2019 1:20pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

lads was there a public consultation or ten on these new carriages? what is the general public, the experts they are on all things transport related, have issues with them? what if somebody will be offended by the colour of them?

They were 41 options taken up as part of the order delivered in 2007. They are just addon intermediates to make 41 set 1 carriage longer.

You won't be able to tell them apart when they get here other than they will be cleaner than the rest of the set unless you know the serial numbers to look out for when the train is stopped.

goingnowhere · 22-11-2019 2:42pm

The power packs have a finite life so replacement is a fact of life

The savings are immediate, full hybrid mode is looking at 30% saving in fuel costs plus its a stage V engine so puts out even less gunk into the air.

Price of oil can only go up and is a major cost item for Irish Rail so saving 30% on that and get improved performance is a win win.

Political Wall Map · 22-11-2019 3:38pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

How many years will it take to generate these "fuel savings" in costs once the capital spend has been deducted. I honestly dons't think there is a major reliability issue with power packs on ICRs. There is no need for any changes to the fleet or at least right now when there are bigger issues.

Good for a photo opportunity pretending to do something while doing nothing at the same time.

ICR's around the country with powerpacks isolated in service. Will only get worse as the fleet ages and time for maintenance is reduced as demand for capacity increases. So makes sense to introduce technology that can reduce demand on the engines in the long term.

Fuel savings will be generated from Day 1 and the cost savings associated.

Sensible thing to do is retrofit now while the funding is there. Still another 20 years plus of service for the ICRs.

Jamie2k9 · 22-11-2019 3:41pm

goingnowhere wrote: »

The power packs have a finite life so replacement is a fact of life

The savings are immediate, full hybrid mode is looking at 30% saving in fuel costs plus its a stage V engine so puts out even less gunk into the air.

Price of oil can only go up and is a major cost item for Irish Rail so saving 30% on that and get improved performance is a win win.

30% and how much extra for each unit replacement in capital over current type? Everything has a life so the net savings will be lower than equivalent 30% in fuel costs once all costs are factored in.

201, 29s will cost them a lot more in fuel than an ICR yet no replacements particularly for 29s which are staying long term...

goingnowhere · 22-11-2019 3:48pm

Replacement would need to be stage V anyway so the cost has to be paid, the only extra cost is the hybrid stuff

Jamie2k9 · 22-11-2019 3:51pm

Political Wall Map wrote: »

ICR's around the country with powerpacks isolated in service. Will only get worse as the fleet ages and time for maintenance is reduced as demand for capacity increases. So makes sense to introduce technology that can reduce demand on the engines in the long term.

Fuel savings will be generated from Day 1 and the cost savings associated.

Sensible thing to do is retrofit now while the funding is there. Still another 20 years plus of service for the ICRs.

Any stats to back up power packs isolation occurrences?

Im not against the change. Im sure it will deliver various benefits but on paper must benefits are overstated to what is actually achieved.

41 new ICR centre cars

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