41 new ICR centre cars

end of the road

kc56 wrote: »

Except that they would be another type and need a whole new maintenance set-up.

they shouldn't do as the 3/4000 types are a caf product. they're will be a couple of differences with any caf stock being newer but over all it should be managable.

kc56 wrote: »

Plus, many of the Heuston 'suburbans' double up as transfers to Portlaoise TCD.

indeed that's what you get with a depot in an inefficient location. but that's IE'S problem to sort out, it's not the passengers job to suffer the consiquences. the current system only benefits IE.

kc56 wrote: »

Makes economic sense, in a company starved of resources, to add to the ICR fleet as well as being both the cheapest and quickest options to increase capacity to meet growing traffic on all routes.

except they're is no chance in hell they will be able to deal with the capacity issue on the suburbans. a 2900 varient is the only thing that can do that.
a low density regional train on a high density high capacity suburban service doesn't work well and therefore these new carriges won't make any difference. even the average user can see this.

kc56

end of the road wrote: »

except they're is no chance in hell they will be able to deal with the capacity issue on the suburbans. a 2900 varient is the only thing that can do that.
a low density regional train on a high density high capacity suburban service doesn't work well and therefore these new carriges won't make any difference. even the average user can see this.

Heston suburbans don't suffer from ICR use at present except, perhaps, when they arrive at Heuston. The route is not exactly 'high density' unlike Maynooth/Northern commuter. Most commuters come from Sallins/Newbridge/Kildare and use Intercity trains in preference to the suburbans. There are exceptions such as the 1810 (1805) which has no competing IC service. There are capacity issues on the IC trains with many standing but this is less frequent on the suburbans.

The plan is to replace the ICRs on the PPT service with refurbished 2700's. This route has the potential to be 'high density' especially if more services are extended to Newbridge so the 2700s may be appropriate. It has been said that the 70mph top speed is a limitation west of Hazelhatch, but the 29000s didn't have an issue when they operated the Kildare route.

end of the road

kc56 wrote: »

It has been said that the 70mph top speed is a limitation west of Hazelhatch, but the 29000s didn't have an issue when they operated the Kildare route.

oh absolutely correct. they were perfectly fine and worked well. even now from my experience stopping services still don't get past 70 west of Hazelhatch. all be it i'm not a regular user so maybe the odd one does.

kc56

end of the road wrote: »

oh absolutely correct. they were perfectly fine and worked well. even now from my experience stopping services still don't get past 70 west of Hazelhatch. all be it i'm not a regular user so maybe the odd one does.

ICRs hit 90/100mph easily between Hazelhatch and Sallins and between Sallins and Newbridge. But the few minutes at these speeds don't add up to much. In fact the time for Heuston Kildare hardly changed when they changed from 29000s to the ICRs.

I use the trains daily.

Jamie2k9

kc56 wrote: »

The review also discussed using airplane style seating layout, no tables, for additional capacity in the new ICR cars but that would also require additional design and safety evaluation and slow the process.

I don't see that happening. My first comment was if they were going to change the spec (new contract of course) Hyundai Rotem could easily do it, if awarded such a contract and keep costs such as maintenance down.

The plan is to replace the ICRs on the PPT service with refurbished 2700's. This route has the potential to be 'high density' especially if more services are extended to Newbridge so the 2700s may be appropriate. It has been said that the 70mph top speed is a limitation west of Hazelhatch, but the 29000s didn't have an issue when they operated the Kildare route.

Would be very very surprised if they moved ICR's of PPT services, yes it has potential to do very well however a lot of it's medium term growth will be from existing services and if extended to Newbridge/Kildare. Of course a certain level of new people but not massive influx.

2700 will be suitable for M3 Parkway direct and shuttle and free up a few ICR sets which IMO will boost PPT form 4 to 6/7 if required.

IE might say they plan 2700 for it but in reality it would be a last resort move.

loyatemu

those NIR trains look very similar to the IÉ 29Ks, in what ways are they better?

re: Wexford services, I regularly get the 1735 and 1835 services from Connolly and they're nearly always 22Ks, but TBH the earlier one is totally a commuter service and a 29K would probably be more suitable.

end of the road

loyatemu wrote: »

re: Wexford services, I regularly get the 1735 and 1835 services from Connolly and they're nearly always 22Ks, but TBH the earlier one is totally a commuter service and a 29K would probably be more suitable.

i guess i'm just unlucky then.
a 29k is only suitable for journeys of an hour at most. even then you might want to consider bringing some headache tablets.
IMO all the services at peak times in the country are commuter services.

loyatemu

end of the road wrote: »

a

i guess i'm just unlucky then.
a 29k is only suitable for journeys of an hour at most. even then you might want to consider bringing some headache tablets.
IMO all the services at peak times in the country are commuter services.

it is a difficult question though - if the 1735 carries 400 people between Connolly and Greystones and then another 100 for the remaining stations to Wexford, which type of trains should they use? (I've pulled those figures out of the air, but it does mostly empty out in Bray and Greystones).

end of the road

loyatemu wrote: »

it is a difficult question though - if the 1735 carries 400 people between Connolly and Greystones and then another 100 for the remaining stations to Wexford, which type of trains should they use? (I've pulled those figures out of the air, but it does mostly empty out in Bray and Greystones).

i don't think it's difficult at all tbh going on how other operators around the world operate in terms of short distance passengers on long distance services. the long distance passenger's get the comfort as they are paying higher fares and the capacity is availible for the short distance passengers, with splitting and joining where possible (mind you, it probably takes a ridiculous amount of time to split an ICR)
in our case, those going to stations from connolly to greystones have the dart, and if they wish to use the regional service to wexford instead then they can cram into a regional train. you are paying a higher fare then someone going to greystones so you shouldn't have to suffer discomfort for short distance passengers who have an alternative, and because IE can't manage it's rolling stock.

loyatemu

end of the road wrote: »

i don't think it's difficult at all tbh going on how other operators around the world operate in terms of short distance passengers on long distance services. the long distance passenger's get the comfort as they are paying higher fares and the capacity is availible for the short distance passengers, with splitting and joining where possible (mind you, it probably takes a ridiculous amount of time to split an ICR)
in our case, those going to stations from connolly to greystones have the dart, and if they wish to use the regional service to wexford instead then they can cram into a regional train. you are paying a higher fare then someone going to greystones so you shouldn't have to suffer discomfort for short distance passengers who have an alternative, and because IE can't manage it's rolling stock.

that's all well and good, but if you removed the commuting passengers (by for instance running non-stop to Wicklow), there's not many left and you'd struggle to justify running the service at all.

XPS_Zero

The NIR ones are not THAT dissimilar but they are better

More capacity
Fold down seats
More standing room
They're warmer

Jamie2k9

XPS_Zero wrote: »

The NIR ones are not THAT dissimilar but they are better

More capacity
Fold down seats
More standing room
They're warmer

Only reason they are warmer is because they are set that way.

Losty Dublin

XPS_Zero wrote: »

The NIR ones are not THAT dissimilar but they are better

More capacity
Fold down seats
More standing room
They're warmer

They feel warmer because all of their windows are sealed unlike irish Rail DMU's. Also they generally have less stops en route, which means less door opening to lose heat.

The NIR sets are intended to work longer distance trips than the Irish Rail 26/27/28/29 DMU sets, notably the Derry services. Internally they seat more the Irish Rail commuter sets but this comes with a loss of standing room. They have a higher top speed than the Irish Rail commuter sets.

XPS_Zero

Losty Dublin wrote: »

They feel warmer because all of their windows are sealed unlike irish Rail DMU's. Also they generally have less stops en route, which means less door opening to lose heat.

The NIR sets are intended to work longer distance trips than the Irish Rail 26/27/28/29 DMU sets, notably the Derry services. Internally they seat more the Irish Rail commuter sets but this comes with a loss of standing room. They have a higher top speed than the Irish Rail commuter sets.

Are you saying they're unsuitable for our commuter lines?

Losty Dublin

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Are you saying they're unsuitable for our commuter lines?

For some workings they would be less than ideal given they have a lower overall capacity per car; they certainly wouldn't cope as well on a Maynooth or Balbriggan or Wicklow rush hour train. They are fine on longer or lighter trips and although not quite as comfortable as a 22000 class, they empty and load swiftly.

NIR doesn't have a distinct suburban and inter city section in the same way that Irish Rail. Their needs were better served with a common class of something that is a little better than a commuter train but not an out and out long distance unit. For this reason a tender from CAF for a speedier 29000's was declined in preference for the bespoke C3Ks.

XPS_Zero

Looking at one of our CAFs today I think I prefer the interior after all just wish it was warmer.

Next order we should ask for sealed windows with decent air conditioning

GM228

Update: Despite the NTA previously shelving this project they have now approved the order for 41 centre cars at nearly €100M (interestingly Translink yesterday ordered 21 centre cars for the 4000s at a cost of £50M).

The collapse of the 2700 project has no doubt resulted in this. Contract with Rotem is due to be signed in early 2019.

end of the road

sense prevails for once.



is the 2700 project definitely dead then?

GM228

end of the road wrote: »

sense prevails for once.



is the 2700 project definitely dead then?

Not fully dead yet, but certainly dying rapidly.

L1011

I wonder how long these'll have with their original powerpacks before they get converted to hybrid!

Jamie2k9

So this indicates the hybrid order has been indefinitely delayed then?

end of the road

L1011 wrote: »

I wonder how long these'll have with their original powerpacks before they get converted to hybrid!

perhapse they may have the hybrid powerpack from new? i would be surprised if they arrive with the old powerpack and are then upgraded but this is ireland so anything is possible i guess.

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

So this indicates the hybrid order has been indefinitely delayed then?

i'd hope not. 41 cars are better then no cars but they will only be a small dent in what is probably needed.

Jamie2k9

end of the road wrote: »

perhapse they may have the hybrid powerpack from new? i would be surprised if they arrive with the old powerpack and are then upgraded but this is ireland so anything is possible i guess.

They couldn't do that. Firstly a full unit needs to be hybrid and secondly nobody knows the problems it might cause.

The trails are going to take 2 years on a single unit. I guess depending on delivery some could have it fitted only if units here are fitted at the same time. Could even be tender issues with a hybrid pack fitted.

Jamie2k9

end of the road wrote: »

i'd hope not. 41 cars are better then no cars but they will only be a small dent in what is probably needed.

Clearly they are, NTA would never have approved this if they were going to arrive by 2022/23.

Edit - a delay could be a good thing, they might do the right thing and go EMU once Maynooth/M3 are done.

GM228

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

So this indicates the hybrid order has been indefinitely delayed then?

No the hybrid order will be tendered in the new year.

Jamie2k9

GM228 wrote: »

No the hybrid order will be tendered in the new year.

Yeah but still going to take years to build, test and certify?

GM228

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Yeah but still going to take years to build, test and certify?

Naturally.

SeanW

One thing that might be good on these new cars (although it might mean new design, crash certification etc) is if they had some suburban features, not just more bike racks etc, but also quarter doors instead of end door vestibules, this in addition to more standing space if the trains are to be used on crush loaded services. So on a train of IC cars that were running a suburban commuter service, you'd have 3 or 4 IC cars with end doors, and in the middle somewhere, a commuter-ised 22k with standing room, quarter doors and a bike rack.

The Mark 2D carriages were like that IIRC, some had middle doors in addition to their end doors and though they were a minority, you'd sometimes have a train with one or two of them mixed in.

GM228

SeanW wrote: »

One thing that might be good on these new cars (although it might mean new design, crash certification etc) is if they had some suburban features, not just more bike racks etc, but also quarter doors instead of end door vestibules, this in addition to more standing space if the trains are to be used on crush loaded services. So on a train of IC cars that were running a suburban commuter service, you'd have 3 or 4 IC cars with end doors, and in the middle somewhere, a commuter-ised 22k with standing room, quarter doors and a bike rack.

The Mark 2D carriages were like that IIRC, some had middle doors in addition to their end doors and though they were a minority, you'd sometimes have a train with one or two of them mixed in.

The centre cars will be the same as current, with the exception that there may be extra seats, but this is not known yet.

The Mk 2s you talk about were the composites, there were nine of them, they were half first and half standards, hence the centre door to separate the different classes.