How is China getting on?

23-10-2020 4:40pm

The_Brood wrote: »

You can critisize a country for truthful reasons without claiming exaggerations that aren't true. For all the horrible things going on in that province, it is incorrect to say that China is trying to "ethnically cleanse" its entire Muslim population everywhere. Been to plenty of Chinese cities where Muslim people are quite happy with life.

Second of all - as a tenant in Dublin, the capital of Ireland, I am denied water, I am treated like absolute dog**** by my landlord, and there is little next to no help or justice offered from the government. Just one example, and plenty of people are worse off than me.

So yes, here's your minute and consider that. You may have a good life in Ireland, not everyone does.

Why don't you report your landlord to PRTB? Why would you rent somewhere that doesn't have water? It's bizarre that somebody who thinks that it's off in Ireland now than it is in China.

fly_agaric · 23-10-2020 4:54pm

beauf wrote: »

You have no way of knowing which response was the most effective response. Since China information is censored and suppressed.

That is fair. I only know what I see in the media (from outside) and have no contacts there or experience of living in the country.
As far as I was aware they are not having to do these "lockdowns"/restrictions of entire regions or economic sectors that we are seeing happening once again in Europe to prevent overloads of health care systems by Covid-19 cases. That was my measure of a more effective response. As per Ardillaun's post my thinking was East Asia has done better (edit: than Europe) in general (incl. some democratic states there). I'm not trying to praise or propagandise China, the CCP/CPC or their system of government in my posting.

stefanovich · 23-10-2020 4:57pm

Ardillaun wrote: »

We do know East Asia has done better than we did. Many of those countries, not just China, reacted quickly and decisively, and from Day 1 eejits refusing to wear masks were hard to spot.

China did not do well at all. They allowed the disease to spread around the world.

Marty Bird · 23-10-2020 5:02pm

Qiaonasen wrote: »

The food thing isn't a valid criticism and is completely subjective. There is great food in the west and also in China. I think it depends on what you are used to. You could counter it by asking why is it not possible to get safe food in China? It's very common there to have constant diarrhoea and their is huge problems with gutter oil. Check out the gutter oil scandal.

Great post. I just looked at a video of gutter oil :eek::eek:

stefanovich · 23-10-2020 5:23pm

Marty Bird wrote: »

Great post. I just looked at a video of gutter oil :eek::eek:

Or eating bats or endangered species. Eating animals alive. Or eating cats and dogs. Crazy **** goes on in China. No wonder they are such a source of new disease.

Qiaonasen · 23-10-2020 5:26pm

stefanovich wrote: »

Or eating bats or endangered species. Eating animals alive. Or eating cats and dogs. Crazy **** goes on in China. No wonder they are such a source of new disease.

Yeah. They really have an anything goes attitude to food. I wonder if it is because mass starvation is still in living memory of many Chinese.

beauf · 23-10-2020 5:47pm

Ardillaun wrote: »

Some PPE that some Chinese companies exported were faulty after the price shot up. They sensibly kept the good stuff for themselves. Does the US buy its fighter aircraft from China? It’s time countries paid a little more to make their own masks and gowns so we’re not caught short in the same way when the next plague hits.

No one was expecting China to keep exporting pandemics, and be unable able to control it. Then to follow it up with these exports. Pretty much hit every branch on the PR disaster tree there. Once bitten twice shy.

Ardillaun wrote: »

We do know East Asia has done better than we did. Many of those countries, not just China, reacted quickly and decisively, and from Day 1 eejits refusing to wear masks were hard to spot.

They already wear masks for many reason, society, air quality and high density housing and population.

https://gogonihon.com/en/blog/why-do-japanese-people-wear-masks/
https://www.tripsavvy.com/face-masks-in-hong-kong-1535600

They also have lots of society differences which have got nothing to do with the politics.

Ardillaun · 23-10-2020 5:52pm

stefanovich wrote: »

China did not do well at all. They allowed the disease to spread around the world.

1. Nobody would dispute that China mismanaged the outbreak of this pandemic in multiple ways, e.g. wet markets, suppression of news of the mysterious pneumonia sweeping Wuhan etc., etc. That is obvious to anybody.

2. Since then, however, China and its neighbours have far surpassed the West esp. the US in its management. The Chinese aren’t responsible for our own woeful incompetence in 2020. Their success has been a huge boost for the prestige of the CCP in China and around the world. When it comes to controlling a plague, they have a government that actually works.

beauf · 23-10-2020 5:54pm

fly_agaric wrote: »

That is fair. I only know what I see in the media (from outside) and have no contacts there or experience of living in the country.
As far as I was aware they are not having to do these "lockdowns"/restrictions of entire regions or economic sectors that we are seeing happening once again in Europe to prevent overloads of health care systems by Covid-19 cases. That was my measure of a more effective response. As per Ardillaun's post my thinking was East Asia has done better (edit: than Europe) in general (incl. some democratic states there). I'm not trying to praise or propagandise China, the CCP/CPC or their system of government in my posting.

East Asia has a wide variety of systems of Govts. But its mostly societal. Even that isn't the same across the East Asia. That itself comes with pros and cons

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kodokushi#:~:text=Kodokushi%20(%E5%AD%A4%E7%8B%AC%E6%AD%BB)%20or%20lonely,and%20Japan's%20increasingly%20elderly%20population.

Ardillaun · 23-10-2020 5:55pm

beauf wrote: »

No one was expecting China to keep exporting pandemics, and be unable able to control it. Then to follow it up with these exports. Pretty much hit every branch on the PR disaster tree there. Once bitten twice shy.

China has succeeded and we failed in controlling Covid.

They already wear masks for many reason, society, air quality and high density housing and population.

They also have lots of society differences which have got nothing to do with the politics.

More credit to them. We need to learn from that and stop shouting inane nonsense about personal freedom in the middle of a pandemic.

And BTW it’s not just China that is more sensible than us on masks. All across East Asia, in democracies, you see the same prudence.

Ardillaun · 23-10-2020 5:58pm

stefanovich wrote: »

Assume everything coming out of China is propaganda.

Even a government as absolute as the CCP has its limits. A mass outbreak of Covid at this stage would be very hard to conceal.

beauf · 23-10-2020 6:00pm

Ardillaun wrote: »

1. Nobody would dispute that China mismanaged the outbreak of this pandemic in multiple ways, e.g. wet markets, suppression of news of the mysterious pneumonia sweeping Wuhan etc., etc. That is obvious to anybody.

2. Since then, however, China and its neighbours have far surpassed the West esp. the US in its management. The Chinese aren’t responsible for our own woeful incompetence in 2020. Their success has been a huge boost for the prestige of the CCP in China and around the world. When it comes to controlling a plague, they have a government that actually works.

Unfortunately they've cried wolf too many times for any sane person to take them seriously.

Ardillaun · 23-10-2020 6:01pm

beauf wrote: »

East Asia has a wide variety of systems of Govts. But its mostly societal. Even that isn't the same across the East Asia. That itself comes with pros and cons

Mostly pros in a pandemic. The West needs to be able to switch more nimbly into a more authoritarian pandemic mode when the need arises just as countries have to when war comes along.

Ardillaun · 23-10-2020 6:01pm

beauf wrote: »

Unfortunately they've cried wolf too many times for any sane person to take them seriously.

?

The greatest single political challenge to our world order and to democracy itself is the CCP. Unless we can see that Covid has so far worked out well for Beijing, despite its initial incompetence and wrongdoing, we are missing the point. We have to understand the things the other side does well.

beauf · 23-10-2020 6:02pm

Ardillaun wrote: »

Even a government as absolute as the CCP has its limits. A mass outbreak of Covid at this stage would be very hard to conceal.

Why? nothing has changed in China.

beauf · 23-10-2020 6:03pm

Ardillaun wrote: »

Sane person?

I note you're not disagreeing about crying wolf

beauf · 23-10-2020 6:04pm

Ardillaun wrote: »

Mostly pros in a pandemic. The West needs to be able to switch more nimbly into a more authoritarian pandemic mode when the need arises just as countries have to when war comes along.

Why is a war coming? What have they told you to say?

fly_agaric · 23-10-2020 6:05pm

beauf wrote: »

East Asia has a wide variety of systems of Govts. But its mostly societal. Even that isn't the same across the East Asia. That itself comes with pros and cons

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kodokushi#:~:text=Kodokushi%20(%E5%AD%A4%E7%8B%AC%E6%AD%BB)%20or%20lonely,and%20Japan's%20increasingly%20elderly%20population.

That is interesting. Has been known to happen here also.
I don't know if there are any statistics on it for Ireland (people dying alone + the body being discovered some time later). When the period is very long you see it popping up in the media but if it is only a few days am sure you'll never hear about it.

beauf · 23-10-2020 6:10pm

Ardillaun wrote: »

?

The greatest single political challenge to our world order and to democracy itself is the CCP. Unless we can see that Covid has so far worked out well for Beijing, despite its initial incompetence and wrongdoing, we are missing the point. We have to understand the things the other side does well.

We don't know what they did well. They won't tell anyone.

beauf · 23-10-2020 6:13pm

fly_agaric wrote: »

That is interesting. Has been known to happen here also.
...

It was more about how human rights abuses and societal problems would play a part in a pandemic.

fly_agaric · 23-10-2020 6:29pm

beauf wrote: »

It was more about how human rights abuses and societal problems would play a part in a pandemic.

I didn't see the relevance to the discussion at all really but thanks for the link and the new term anyway.
On a macro scale, China must be coping fairly well. They don't have total/absolute control of information that gets out and they have their hooks deep into the world's economy & supply chains for every kind of manufacturing. If they were riddled with Covid-19, their healthcare systems were collapsing and large proportions of their citizens were under "lockdown" (no doubt strictly enforced at point of a gun beyond the wildest dreams of any gung-ho guard here) but information about all that was hidden the impact would be felt outside somehow. A shutdown/slowdown of Chinese industry etc. was definitely felt around the world afair in the early phase of the pandemic.

Ardillaun · 23-10-2020 6:44pm

beauf wrote: »

Why is a war coming? What have they told you to say?

A pandemic is a national emergency. At this stage, it should be obvious to all what happens when we don’t take it seriously enough.

Ardillaun · 23-10-2020 6:46pm

fly_agaric wrote: »

I didn't see the relevance to the discussion at all really but thanks for the link and the new term anyway.
On a macro scale, China must be coping fairly well. They don't have total/absolute control of information that gets out and they have their hooks deep into the world's economy & supply chains for every kind of manufacturing. If they were riddled with Covid-19, their healthcare systems were collapsing and large proportions of their citizens were under "lockdown" (no doubt strictly enforced at point of a gun beyond the wildest dreams of any gung-ho guard here) but information about all that was hidden the impact would be felt outside somehow. A shutdown/slowdown of Chinese industry etc. was definitely felt around the world afair in the early phase of the pandemic.

The powers that be in Beijing saw Covid as potentially an existential threat to their authority and acted accordingly.

Ardillaun · 23-10-2020 6:47pm

beauf wrote: »

I note you're not disagreeing about crying wolf

Perhaps you would like to elaborate there.

Ardillaun · 23-10-2020 7:21pm

My basic point: you can’t counter an opponent unless you understand their strengths as well as their weaknesses. The Chinese regime’s environmental and human rights record is appalling, making pandemics more likely, but its response to this pandemic (after the first few months) has been impressive. The CCP and democracies are in constant competition and the rest of the world is watching.

beauf · 23-10-2020 9:13pm

Ardillaun wrote: »

The powers that be in Beijing saw Covid as potentially an existential threat to their authority and acted accordingly.

They made it disappear along with anyone who says differently.

agoodpunt · 23-10-2020 9:32pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMVjskBB4w
They are savages when eating I have seen eating areas after they have dinned to be power washed
Germans may like there steaks rare, they chinese like the food still with a hearthbeat

beauf · 23-10-2020 9:33pm

fly_agaric wrote: »

I didn't see the relevance to the discussion at all really but thanks for the link and the new term anyway.
On a macro scale, China must be coping fairly well. They don't have total/absolute control of information that gets out and they have their hooks deep into the world's economy & supply chains for every kind of manufacturing. If they were riddled with Covid-19, their healthcare systems were collapsing and large proportions of their citizens were under "lockdown" (no doubt strictly enforced at point of a gun beyond the wildest dreams of any gung-ho guard here) but information about all that was hidden the impact would be felt outside somehow. A shutdown/slowdown of Chinese industry etc. was definitely felt around the world afair in the early phase of the pandemic.

The implication is that the regime is exactly the right system to counter a pandemic. But that's not much use if it keeps causing them. We do know they are massively dependant on exports. But they've managed to shut down the market they sell into globally. But yet they appear uneffected by that either. At least according to their figures.

fly_agaric · 24-10-2020 5:18pm

beauf wrote: »

The implication is that the regime is exactly the right system to counter a pandemic. But that's not much use if it keeps causing them. We do know they are massively dependant on exports. But they've managed to shut down the market they sell into globally. But yet they appear uneffected by that either. At least according to their figures.

They can of course (and probably do) lie about their official statistics.
However sectors of the economy in Europe/US can be shut down or on go-slow but we still need physical "stuff" (incl. medical PPE that might not be up to snuff!) and China thanks to the shortsighted economic policies I mentioned earlier makes an awful lot of stuff for us now.

What Europe is doing right now to combat Covid-19 does not seem to be working so well. I think you have to admit that.

Being completely unable to look to others (including those whose values are antithetical to your own) who have had success where you failed is a reckless & dangerous form of arrogance that can lead to destruction of countries & societies.

We can examine what China has done or preferably, what Asian countries which are more democratic than China have done for this specific problem, compare it to what we are doing and try and learn and apply it (adjusting for ones own society).

That does not imply an endorsement of China, other Asian countries or their politics.

xhomelezz · 24-10-2020 5:48pm

Ardillaun wrote: »

Our system is superior to China's in many ways but they and other East Asian countries have done far better than us in the West in this pandemic. There's no way that even the CCP could hide large outbreaks of Covid if they were still occurring. Their ability to test an entire city of millions of people in a few days is something we could all learn from. Next time a nasty virus appears we may have to go into at least full Taiwanese mode to stop it.

I do agree with most of your post apart from highlighted, our system..

Supercell · 24-10-2020 6:13pm

beauf wrote: »

They made it disappear along with anyone who says differently.

Sorry but that's just not true, my wife has family and friends in Wuhan and Guangzhou, it is gone they are living normal lives again.
My wife was just telling me that her mother was worried that one case was recently found in Guangzhou, ONE! Google Guangzhou if you haven't heard of it, it's not a small city!
Everyone in China knows what happened in Wuhan, they are terrified of this virus, if my wife's family and friends are saying life is back to normal in Wuhan and Guangzhou I believe them.

beauf · 24-10-2020 8:42pm

fly_agaric wrote: »

....What Europe is doing right now to combat Covid-19 does not seem to be working so well. I think you have to admit that.
....

It did work. The numbers fell.

The problem is that people ignored the lighter restrictions, so now have to go back to the more severe ones.

beauf · 24-10-2020 8:48pm

Supercell wrote: »

Sorry but that's just not true, my wife has family and friends in Wuhan and Guangzhou, it is gone they are living normal lives again.
My wife was just telling me that her mother was worried that one case was recently found in Guangzhou, ONE! Google Guangzhou if you haven't heard of it, it's not a small city!
Everyone in China knows what happened in Wuhan, they are terrified of this virus, if my wife's family and friends are saying life is back to normal in Wuhan and Guangzhou I believe them.

I said they made Covid disappear. You seem to be agreeing with me...

caoty · 25-10-2020 4:27am

Interesting thread to read, entertaining on occasions. When somebody gets brainwashed, it takes multiple "shock treatments" to have the slightest chance, if ever, to remove him/her from that state of "self-confidence", often at a great cost.

fly_agaric · 25-10-2020 5:52pm

beauf wrote: »

It did work. The numbers fell.

The problem is that people ignored the lighter restrictions, so now have to go back to the more severe ones.

Think we agree here really...that is part of what we can learn from the relatively successful countries. Authoritarian sounding as it is, public health restrictions/policies need to be enforced where possible by someone, not just provided as a "good citizen" recommendation. It is a waste of time over the long term ending up in more drastic restrictions & disruptions to recover the situation.

beauf · 25-10-2020 8:13pm

You can always move to somewhere that has the regime you want to live under.

Qiaonasen · 25-10-2020 8:19pm

New outbreak now in China. https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3107016/coronavirus-chinas-kashgar-test-all-700000-residents-after

Ardillaun · 26-10-2020 1:07am

beauf wrote: »

I said they made Covid disappear. You seem to be agreeing with me...

You said a bit more than that.

beauf · 26-10-2020 1:52am

He said it was gone. I said disappeared.

26-10-2020 1:56am

beauf wrote: »

You can always move to somewhere that has the regime you want to live under.

No, you can't. They have proper controls due to Covid-19.

beauf · 26-10-2020 1:59am

Deleted User wrote: »

No, you can't. They have proper controls due to Covid-19.

Then its not gone. Which is it?

Also is this wrong then?
https://www.europeanchamber.com.cn/en/national-news/3188/travel_policies_to_and_from_cities_in_china

26-10-2020 2:02am

beauf wrote: »

Then its not gone. Which is it?

What? It's not gone from the world, no. Is that your question?

beauf · 26-10-2020 2:04am

Deleted User wrote: »

What? It's not gone from the world, no. Is that your question?

It seems like its not gone from China either.
It also seems you can travel with certain restrictions.

26-10-2020 2:05am

beauf wrote: »

It seems like its not gone from China either.
It also seems you can travel with certain restrictions.

Ok.

Qiaonasen · 26-10-2020 10:08am

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/26/china-new-coronavirus-outbreak-detected-in-xinjiang-city-of-kashgar

The biggest and most important line in that article.

"China does not classify asymptomatic cases as “confirmed cases” and so far, no cases of people with symptoms have been reported."

fly_agaric · 26-10-2020 10:15am

beauf wrote: »

You can always move to somewhere that has the regime you want to live under.

Go "move somewhere else" if you don't really agree with [a] government policy.
The "yes we have no bananas" response. Very CCP of you.:pac:

beauf · 26-10-2020 11:19am

fly_agaric wrote: »

Go "move somewhere else" if you don't really agree with [a] government policy.
The "yes we have no bananas" response. Very CCP of you.:pac:

Well it's a variation of show me the money. If you want to know what people believe. Look at how they put one's money where one's mouth is. I think a lot of people who a fawning over China wouldn't live there in million years. That they haven't chosen to move speaks volumes.

That's not to say that China isn't a good place to live. Its lifted alot of its population out of poverty at a time when the wealth inequality is for the first increasing in the West. There's a lot of wealth in China and in some ways more modern than the West, and especially Ireland. But it built on fairly dubious foundations considering state owns all property and basic civil liberties are non existent. Never mind how it controls information.

It's has a looming problem in that is economy is built on exports and that market has disappeared with Covid. It can always be undercut. At some point the both the economy and peoples liberties will come to a head. I guess that's why so much Chinese wealth is invested overseas. There's also the issues of its military expansion.

When it comes to Covid. It's like the kid who constantly lies and fibs. Is constantly trying to be taken seriously, but can't understand why no one believes them.

beauf · 26-10-2020 11:30am

Qiaonasen wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/26/china-new-coronavirus-outbreak-detected-in-xinjiang-city-of-kashgar

The biggest and most important line in that article.

"China does not classify asymptomatic cases as “confirmed cases” and so far, no cases of people with symptoms have been reported."

China seems to think if it publishes incredible statistics everyone will be dazzled and not look to closely.

That's not too say they aren't capable of Incredible feats. They most certainly are. But that's a different issue.

gozunda · 29-12-2020 1:15pm

How is that China seems to have avoided the near worldwide resurgence of Covid in the last couple of months?

Total deaths in China since the start of the pandemic are given at just over 4000 people - out of a population of approx 1.4 billion people

Italy has had just over 70,000 deaths out of a population of approx 60 million.

For last day reported for China (19 Dec) Covid Deaths = 23

Same date for Italy. Covid Deaths = 553

Looks like China it had has won the war with Covid or at least that's what we are hearing.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-55355401

Fr_Dougal · 29-12-2020 1:43pm

China’s pants are on fire.

How is China getting on?

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