How is China getting on?

fly_agaric wrote: »

Very true. If you are hidebound by dogma + can't adapt to face a new situation successfully your society is in trouble imo + there needs to be a bit of a rethink of approach.
This Covid-19 episode has revealed such problems in the West in general (poor political leadership, weakened public sectors that have so decayed under a constant "privatisation/deregulation" economic dogma that they cannot respond to a crisis, fixation on needs of "the economy"/wealthy interests above all, and a large segment of the public that is selfish & ignorant despite all the money that is spent on education).

What you talking about is simply the result of a democracy vs dictatorship. It's also a lack of leadership that is a result of people wanting to avoid culpability because we crucify the smallest mistake. People would prefer to do nothing then risk the smallest mistake.

Supercell

I think its easy to view China through Western eyes and think our lot is far superior.
Just dont say that to my wife, who is a naturalised Irish but from China originally.

Her counter arguments might be how come you cannot walk around the streets at night safely anywhere at any time in the cities?
Why don't you have reliable underground transportation in the likes of Dublin instead of perma gridlock.
Why does everything take so long to arrive here when ordered online?
Why is our food so bland!
Why do so many Irish people talk down their country and have no civic pride? I saw a topic about children's names and someone said isn't it great disgusting irish names are leaving the top 10 or something along those lines and it got over 50 thanks..
Why does getting anything built here take so long, buildings there are worked on 24/7 with minimum disruption to everyone around them (yes i know we might say quality, but quality doesn't have to stop at 5pm Friday and restart 9am Monday)
Why are there no high speed , cheap rail links between our cities?
We say we cannot lock people in their houses aka Wuhan style last Christmas, but instead we choose to wreck out economy in slow motion with millions likely going to die of cancers and suffer long term illness both from COVID and lack of treatment for the usual suspects like cancer etc.
Why don't we test everyone and isolate off the infected in a hotel until recovered so that the virus is controlled. Would that really be more expensive than what we are going now?

Look I understand you can probably pick holes in all of these, just pointing out that as westerners we are totally biased in our opinion to a culture that is so very different to ours. Things is, many there would say the same about us. Doesn't make either view right.

Just because someone points out the negatives in one politicial system doesn't mean they are unaware of pros and cons of other systems.

Ultimately people vote with their feet, (if they are allowed). If someone thinks the West is terrible they are free to leave it. Not sure if the reverse is true in other places.

stefanovich

Supercell wrote: »

I think its easy to view China through Western eyes and think our lot is far superior.
Just dont say that to my wife, who is a naturalised Irish but from China originally.

Her counter arguments might be how come you cannot walk around the streets at night safely anywhere at any time in the cities?
Why don't you have reliable underground transportation in the likes of Dublin instead of perma gridlock.
Why does everything take so long to arrive here when ordered online?
Why is our food so bland!
Why do so many Irish people talk down their country and have no civic pride? I saw a topic about children's names and someone said isn't it great disgusting irish names are leaving the top 10 or something along those lines and it got over 50 thanks..
Why does getting anything built here take so long, buildings there are worked on 24/7 with minimum disruption to everyone around them (yes i know we might say quality, but quality doesn't have to stop at 5pm Friday and restart 9am Monday)
Why are there no high speed , cheap rail links between our cities?
We say we cannot lock people in their houses aka Wuhan style last Christmas, but instead we choose to wreck out economy in slow motion with millions likely going to die of cancers and suffer long term illness both from COVID and lack of treatment for the usual suspects like cancer etc.
Why don't we test everyone and isolate off the infected in a hotel until recovered so that the virus is controlled. Would that really be more expensive than what we are going now?

Look I understand you can probably pick holes in all of these, just pointing out that as westerners we are totally biased in our opinion to a culture that is so very different to ours. Things is, many there would say the same about us. Doesn't make either view right.

I'm sure there were many in Nazi Germany who were quite content too.

beauf wrote: »

What you talking about is simply the result of a democracy vs dictatorship. It's also a lack of leadership that is a result of people wanting to avoid culpability because we crucify the smallest mistake. People would prefer to do nothing then risk the smallest mistake.

You are right about people wanting to avoid culpability for mistakes, but (talking about politics) that is the job our democratically elected leaders at this time are assigned. I'm sure none of them expected to be having to guide Ireland through a massive crisis like this when starting out in politics! It is very hard and I don't envy them at all.

I think it goes a bit beyond a pure "democracy vs dictatorship" question. I was listing particular weaknesses in Europe/the US (the West) that I think have been exposed by this event; some of them are related to the dominant economic ideology rather than too much freedom/citizen's rights/democracy getting in the way of a more effective response. If democracies cannot adapt to overcome a crisis for whatever reasons they will fail, and that is the end of democracy (leaving autocracies like China standing [or dominant] which is a disaster). Some crises will require temporary undemocratic actions to get through them unfortunately IMO.

fly_agaric wrote: »

You are right about people wanting to avoid culpability for mistakes, but (talking about politics) that is the job our democratically elected leaders at this time are assigned. I'm sure none of them expected to be having to guide Ireland through a massive crisis like this when starting out in politics! It is very hard and I don't envy them at all.

There used to be more desire to improve things and indeed the kudos as being seen as having a meaningful impact. Its been largely driven out of politics.

fly_agaric wrote: »

I think it goes a bit beyond a pure "democracy vs dictatorship" question. I was listing particular weaknesses in Europe/the US (the West) that I think have been exposed by this event; some of them are related to the dominant economic ideology rather than too much freedom/citizen's rights/democracy getting in the way of a more effective response. If democracies cannot adapt to overcome a crisis for whatever reasons they will fail, and that is the end of democracy (leaving autocracies like China standing [or dominant] which is a disaster). Some crises will require temporary undemocratic actions to get through them unfortunately IMO.

You have no way of knowing which response was the most effective response. Since China information is censored and suppressed.

beauf wrote: »

There's a couple of issues with this. Out breaks in China are still being reported. But they just seem to disappear from media very quickly. Also a lot of PPE and testing kits they supplied didn't work or were faulty. So either they did that deliberately or they didn't know. If they didn't know. Then what are they using internally. It must have similar failure rates.

That's the best case scenario.

Some PPE that some Chinese companies exported was faulty after the price shot up. They sensibly kept the good stuff for themselves. Does the US buy its fighter aircraft from China? It’s time countries paid a little more to make their own masks and gowns so we’re not caught short in the same way when the next plague hits.

beauf wrote: »

There used to be more desire to improve things and indeed the kudos as being seen as having a meaningful impact. Its been largely driven out of politics.

You have no way of knowing which response was the most effective response. Since China information is censored and suppressed.

We do know East Asia has done better than we did. Many of those countries, not just China, reacted quickly and decisively, and from Day 1 eejits refusing to wear masks were hard to spot.

Qiaonasen

Supercell wrote: »

I think its easy to view China through Western eyes and think our lot is far superior.
Just dont say that to my wife, who is a naturalised Irish but from China originally.

Her counter arguments might be how come you cannot walk around the streets at night safely anywhere at any time in the cities?
Why don't you have reliable underground transportation in the likes of Dublin instead of perma gridlock.
Why does everything take so long to arrive here when ordered online?
Why is our food so bland!
Why do so many Irish people talk down their country and have no civic pride? I saw a topic about children's names and someone said isn't it great disgusting irish names are leaving the top 10 or something along those lines and it got over 50 thanks..
Why does getting anything built here take so long, buildings there are worked on 24/7 with minimum disruption to everyone around them (yes i know we might say quality, but quality doesn't have to stop at 5pm Friday and restart 9am Monday)
Why are there no high speed , cheap rail links between our cities?
We say we cannot lock people in their houses aka Wuhan style last Christmas, but instead we choose to wreck out economy in slow motion with millions likely going to die of cancers and suffer long term illness both from COVID and lack of treatment for the usual suspects like cancer etc.
Why don't we test everyone and isolate off the infected in a hotel until recovered so that the virus is controlled. Would that really be more expensive than what we are going now?

Look I understand you can probably pick holes in all of these, just pointing out that as westerners we are totally biased in our opinion to a culture that is so very different to ours. Things is, many there would say the same about us. Doesn't make either view right.

This made me laugh. I am not having a go at you but I enjoyed your post because it is full of all of the Chinese nonsense which I hear regularly from my friend from Shandong. She downloads her opinions every day from WeChat because she is unable to form her own. The Chinese education system destroys all capacity for critical thinking and creativity so lots discussion with Chinese people are the same. These by the way are not real counter arguments. It's the classic whataboutism fallacy. Essentially they think pointing out the problems you have mentioned above validates their own system.

How do we know what the true crime statistics are? There is no press worth mentioning to report crime but this doesn't mean it doesn't happen. There is a huge human trafficking trade in China. Drugs. Kidnappings. Gangs. Domestic violence. They have it all but you won't hear anything about
it on a Chinese radio station. All you will get is propaganda slogans about a harmonious society.

If you look at any Chinese city it is gridlocked as well and it's not a problem exclusive to Dublin. The fact that we don't have high speed rail doesn't make us any less advanced than China. Not only that but when I worked in China and took the subway to work the Chinese were looking down on me because as I couldn't afford a car. Those who could drive to work did so so that they got face. It didn't matter that it probably took longer. The subway means you are poor and therefore worthless. It's just an example of the sort of thinking prevalent in China.

The stuff about ordering online is also stupid. It depends where you order but for example most things ordered online can be delivered next day in many countries in Europe. If this isn't the case in Ireland it is probably something else but not a problem with the country. Another example of this is Chinese people who criticise the cash based society still prevalent in countries such as Germany. All the Chinese think we are so far behind because we don't have WeChat pay and are still using credit cards for example. Apparently cities in China have gone completely cashless now but the Chinese don't understand the concept of privacy at all and don't see any dangers or disadvantages of this. They are now living in the worlds most authoritarian Orwellian state but have been conditioned and duped into thinking this is a good thing.

The food thing isn't a valid criticism and is completely subjective. There is great food in the west and also in China. I think it depends on what you are used to. You could counter it by asking why is it not possible to get safe food in China? It's very common there to have constant diarrhoea and their is huge problems with gutter oil. Check out the gutter oil scandal.

In Ireland we talk down the country because we can and are allowed to. The problem for Chinese people from the PRC is that they have been brainwashed and conditioned to think China and the Communist Party are one and the same thing. If you criticise the CPC, you are criticising the country and vice versa. Criticism of the CPC can get you sent to a black jail, concentration camp or even just straight up executed depending on the order of the day. There are people in Ireland who praise the country as well. We have freedom of speech and freedom to mock ourselves. Nobody is above ridicule.

With regard the building thing in China. It's also an absolute nightmare. China builds based on quantity rather than quality. Buildings and infrastructure collapse all the time in China because there is no quality and corners are cut. If a building contractor can make a quick buck for example by diluting the cement you can be sure he's gonna do it. Furthermore they can build all though the night and noise pollution is a huge problem in Chinese cities. Often times builders are using the jackhammer in the middle of the night without regard for anyone else and there is very little you can do. I also find it amusing that China is supposedly a collectivist society but nobody has any regard for anyone else. Fall down or have a heart attack in the street? The people will just walk passed you because there are so many scammers and crooks in China it's not worth the risk to help. There is some Good Samaritan scam running there since many years.

In Ireland we are a small island with a tiny population. Is it even economically viable or necessary to have high speed rail everywhere? But when you mention high speed rail there is a funny Chinese story. After the Wenzhou High Speed rail collision the first thing the Chinese did was try to cover it up. State media was directed not to report the crash and even engaged bulldozers to bury the wreckage. Again cover the problem, pretend it doesn't exist and bury our heads in the sand. Long live the Communist Party.

The strategy they have taken for Wuhan is not really viable. You must remember that the virus possibly spread as far as it did because of authoritarianism and lack of transparency. China's first reaction was to cover up the virus(as usual). Once they admitted the problem it was already too late.Even after they stopped flights from Wuhan to other parts of China they allowed international flights to continue. They learned literally nothing after the SARS outbreak. After that outbreak they implemented some early warning systems with the WHO in order to prevent similar things in the
future. This also failed. In many other countries, even if it started in Ireland and we had experience of previous pandemics I am confident we would have been open and said hey there is a problem here with a virus and we should tackle it. There is nothing wrong with blowing the whistle on this. In China you get arrested and told off for spreading rumors. We can do this because we are not a face based society where the aim is to look good rather than actually be good. In short China's system caused the pandemic in the first place. Just because they can weld people into homes does not not mean we should forget about that. Also we cannot really be sure this won't happen again because they won't even allow investigators into Wuhan to investigate how the thing happened. Wet market? Lab? Who knows. But if we don't figure out we won't learn anything.

Another thing to remember is the virus strategy they maintain is probably not even sustainable. Are they really going to have two weeks quarantines for everyone entering the country for the rest of eternity? Would you take their vaccine even though it hasn't been proven to work? In a country with one billion people are they going to test every city for every outbreak forever. The pandemic is just beginning and has a long long long way to go so lets reevaluate China's response when all the dust settles. I also read recently the story of an Italian journalist in Nanjing who entered China and tested negative during the quarantine period of two weeks but got Coronavirus or tested positive for it later. I am not sure if it was late incubation of community spread. Just last week they shutdown Qingdao. Are they going to do this for every single corona case? The virus will probably become endemic and recur constantly.

The Chinese dream is basically move to America and become rich and tell all your family in China you are rich and successful in the west to save face. They don't even trust their own baby formula supply. I could go on and on and on. China is not a model for anyone.

[Deleted User]

The_Brood wrote: »

You can critisize a country for truthful reasons without claiming exaggerations that aren't true. For all the horrible things going on in that province, it is incorrect to say that China is trying to "ethnically cleanse" its entire Muslim population everywhere. Been to plenty of Chinese cities where Muslim people are quite happy with life.

Second of all - as a tenant in Dublin, the capital of Ireland, I am denied water, I am treated like absolute dog**** by my landlord, and there is little next to no help or justice offered from the government. Just one example, and plenty of people are worse off than me.

So yes, here's your minute and consider that. You may have a good life in Ireland, not everyone does.

Why don't you report your landlord to PRTB? Why would you rent somewhere that doesn't have water? It's bizarre that somebody who thinks that it's off in Ireland now than it is in China.

beauf wrote: »

You have no way of knowing which response was the most effective response. Since China information is censored and suppressed.

That is fair. I only know what I see in the media (from outside) and have no contacts there or experience of living in the country.
As far as I was aware they are not having to do these "lockdowns"/restrictions of entire regions or economic sectors that we are seeing happening once again in Europe to prevent overloads of health care systems by Covid-19 cases. That was my measure of a more effective response. As per Ardillaun's post my thinking was East Asia has done better (edit: than Europe) in general (incl. some democratic states there). I'm not trying to praise or propagandise China, the CCP/CPC or their system of government in my posting.

stefanovich

Ardillaun wrote: »

We do know East Asia has done better than we did. Many of those countries, not just China, reacted quickly and decisively, and from Day 1 eejits refusing to wear masks were hard to spot.

China did not do well at all. They allowed the disease to spread around the world.

Marty Bird

Qiaonasen wrote: »

The food thing isn't a valid criticism and is completely subjective. There is great food in the west and also in China. I think it depends on what you are used to. You could counter it by asking why is it not possible to get safe food in China? It's very common there to have constant diarrhoea and their is huge problems with gutter oil. Check out the gutter oil scandal.

Great post. I just looked at a video of gutter oil :eek::eek:

stefanovich

Marty Bird wrote: »

Great post. I just looked at a video of gutter oil :eek::eek:

Or eating bats or endangered species. Eating animals alive. Or eating cats and dogs. Crazy **** goes on in China. No wonder they are such a source of new disease.

Qiaonasen

stefanovich wrote: »

Or eating bats or endangered species. Eating animals alive. Or eating cats and dogs. Crazy **** goes on in China. No wonder they are such a source of new disease.

Yeah. They really have an anything goes attitude to food. I wonder if it is because mass starvation is still in living memory of many Chinese.

Ardillaun wrote: »

Some PPE that some Chinese companies exported were faulty after the price shot up. They sensibly kept the good stuff for themselves. Does the US buy its fighter aircraft from China? It’s time countries paid a little more to make their own masks and gowns so we’re not caught short in the same way when the next plague hits.

No one was expecting China to keep exporting pandemics, and be unable able to control it. Then to follow it up with these exports. Pretty much hit every branch on the PR disaster tree there. Once bitten twice shy.

Ardillaun wrote: »

We do know East Asia has done better than we did. Many of those countries, not just China, reacted quickly and decisively, and from Day 1 eejits refusing to wear masks were hard to spot.

They already wear masks for many reason, society, air quality and high density housing and population.

https://gogonihon.com/en/blog/why-do-japanese-people-wear-masks/
https://www.tripsavvy.com/face-masks-in-hong-kong-1535600

They also have lots of society differences which have got nothing to do with the politics.

stefanovich wrote: »

China did not do well at all. They allowed the disease to spread around the world.

1. Nobody would dispute that China mismanaged the outbreak of this pandemic in multiple ways, e.g. wet markets, suppression of news of the mysterious pneumonia sweeping Wuhan etc., etc. That is obvious to anybody.

2. Since then, however, China and its neighbours have far surpassed the West esp. the US in its management. The Chinese aren’t responsible for our own woeful incompetence in 2020. Their success has been a huge boost for the prestige of the CCP in China and around the world. When it comes to controlling a plague, they have a government that actually works.

fly_agaric wrote: »

That is fair. I only know what I see in the media (from outside) and have no contacts there or experience of living in the country.
As far as I was aware they are not having to do these "lockdowns"/restrictions of entire regions or economic sectors that we are seeing happening once again in Europe to prevent overloads of health care systems by Covid-19 cases. That was my measure of a more effective response. As per Ardillaun's post my thinking was East Asia has done better (edit: than Europe) in general (incl. some democratic states there). I'm not trying to praise or propagandise China, the CCP/CPC or their system of government in my posting.

East Asia has a wide variety of systems of Govts. But its mostly societal. Even that isn't the same across the East Asia. That itself comes with pros and cons

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kodokushi#:~:text=Kodokushi%20(%E5%AD%A4%E7%8B%AC%E6%AD%BB)%20or%20lonely,and%20Japan's%20increasingly%20elderly%20population.

beauf wrote: »

No one was expecting China to keep exporting pandemics, and be unable able to control it. Then to follow it up with these exports. Pretty much hit every branch on the PR disaster tree there. Once bitten twice shy.

China has succeeded and we failed in controlling Covid.

They already wear masks for many reason, society, air quality and high density housing and population.

They also have lots of society differences which have got nothing to do with the politics.

More credit to them. We need to learn from that and stop shouting inane nonsense about personal freedom in the middle of a pandemic.

And BTW it’s not just China that is more sensible than us on masks. All across East Asia, in democracies, you see the same prudence.

stefanovich wrote: »

Assume everything coming out of China is propaganda.

Even a government as absolute as the CCP has its limits. A mass outbreak of Covid at this stage would be very hard to conceal.

Ardillaun wrote: »

1. Nobody would dispute that China mismanaged the outbreak of this pandemic in multiple ways, e.g. wet markets, suppression of news of the mysterious pneumonia sweeping Wuhan etc., etc. That is obvious to anybody.

2. Since then, however, China and its neighbours have far surpassed the West esp. the US in its management. The Chinese aren’t responsible for our own woeful incompetence in 2020. Their success has been a huge boost for the prestige of the CCP in China and around the world. When it comes to controlling a plague, they have a government that actually works.

Unfortunately they've cried wolf too many times for any sane person to take them seriously.

beauf wrote: »

East Asia has a wide variety of systems of Govts. But its mostly societal. Even that isn't the same across the East Asia. That itself comes with pros and cons

Mostly pros in a pandemic. The West needs to be able to switch more nimbly into a more authoritarian pandemic mode when the need arises just as countries have to when war comes along.

beauf wrote: »

Unfortunately they've cried wolf too many times for any sane person to take them seriously.

?

The greatest single political challenge to our world order and to democracy itself is the CCP. Unless we can see that Covid has so far worked out well for Beijing, despite its initial incompetence and wrongdoing, we are missing the point. We have to understand the things the other side does well.

Ardillaun wrote: »

Even a government as absolute as the CCP has its limits. A mass outbreak of Covid at this stage would be very hard to conceal.

Why? nothing has changed in China.

Ardillaun wrote: »

Sane person?

I note you're not disagreeing about crying wolf

Ardillaun wrote: »

Mostly pros in a pandemic. The West needs to be able to switch more nimbly into a more authoritarian pandemic mode when the need arises just as countries have to when war comes along.

Why is a war coming? What have they told you to say?

beauf wrote: »

East Asia has a wide variety of systems of Govts. But its mostly societal. Even that isn't the same across the East Asia. That itself comes with pros and cons

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kodokushi#:~:text=Kodokushi%20(%E5%AD%A4%E7%8B%AC%E6%AD%BB)%20or%20lonely,and%20Japan's%20increasingly%20elderly%20population.

That is interesting. Has been known to happen here also.
I don't know if there are any statistics on it for Ireland (people dying alone + the body being discovered some time later). When the period is very long you see it popping up in the media but if it is only a few days am sure you'll never hear about it.

Ardillaun wrote: »

?

The greatest single political challenge to our world order and to democracy itself is the CCP. Unless we can see that Covid has so far worked out well for Beijing, despite its initial incompetence and wrongdoing, we are missing the point. We have to understand the things the other side does well.

We don't know what they did well. They won't tell anyone.

fly_agaric wrote: »

That is interesting. Has been known to happen here also.
...

It was more about how human rights abuses and societal problems would play a part in a pandemic.