How is China getting on?

stefanovich

Thierry12 wrote: »

Do you want me to go back through our history?

Catholic church

Mass graves

?

China aint perfect and neither are we

You are seriously comparing us to China? What about Hitler? Is Leo Hitler?

The_Brood

China has handled the virus as they must have been handled but oh lets listen to a bunch of westerners piss their pants. We are in endless lockdown, no vaccine, economies destroyed, lives destroyed, while China has returned to normal life for many months now....but yeah let's ignore it, China always the evil guys, doesn't matter what topic we are talking about. Thank God we are not China, thank God we are in endless lockdowns! How righteous and happy we are?

Clowns.

Gradius

The_Brood wrote: »

China has handled the virus as they must have been handled but oh lets listen to a bunch of westerners piss their pants. We are in endless lockdown, no vaccine, economies destroyed, lives destroyed, while China has returned to normal life for many months now....but yeah let's ignore it, China always the evil guys, doesn't matter what topic we are talking about. Thank God we are not China, thank God we are in endless lockdowns! How righteous and happy we are?

Clowns.

China is a disaster beyond the virus they originated.

Us being screwed by China's handiwork doesn't magically make China somehow good.

And if you believe anything coming out of that place, especially "officially", then you should head on over and feel free not to return

peterofthebr

China is back up and running but they still have a unemployment issue and as we (the West) are also having a employment problem were not spending as much which is impacting them.
Also although it's hard to get a clear picture... China also had allot of flooding and agricultural goods got damaged, rumours about a huge dam in China struggling with the water volumes. GDP is up today in China but it prob more CCP lies

Google must have upset CCP too.. Google reporting today of massive DOS attack on its servers apprepently originating from china

The_Brood

Gradius wrote: »

China is a disaster beyond the virus they originated.

Us being screwed by China's handiwork doesn't magically make China somehow good.

And if you believe anything coming out of that place, especially "officially", then you should head on over and feel free not to return

Countless of westerners, Irish included, working and living there have written and told you freely and openly what the situation is. China is messed up for a lot of things but they dealt with the virus properly and have been free to live their lives for a long while now. Is pretending that isn't so somehow going to help you sleep better at night for your upcoming months of lockdown? Is that what this is about?

Enjoy your lockdown while they get to live. Then tell me who you feel sorry for.

Clowns, again.

Supercell

My wife has friends and family in Wuhan and Guangzhou. By all accounts life is pretty much back to normal. People still mask up on busses and trains but other than that everyone is back at work. They did the mass testing recently in Guangzhou too apparently after a handful of cases were found there, mad stuff altogether.
If you test positive there, there's no self isolation, you are shipped off to a COVID hotel until you recover. I'd imagine the word hotel in this context doest equate to luxury.

Gradius

The_Brood wrote: »

Countless of westerners, Irish included, working and living there have written and told you freely and openly what the situation is. China is messed up for a lot of things but they dealt with the virus properly and have been free to live their lives for a long while now. Is pretending that isn't so somehow going to help you sleep better at night for your upcoming months of lockdown? Is that what this is about?

Enjoy your lockdown while they get to live. Then tell me who you feel sorry for.

Clowns, again.

I can personally swear that I have not received anything from Mandarin candidates in China.

Virus aside, I do know a few people who couldn't get out of the place fast enough after thinking "it won't be too bad."

It's a surveillance state that took the novel 1984 as a manual.

They are regularly on the brink of disease outbreaks because they have hygiene standards akin to Victorian dumps

They have a hive mentality, like insects, where the individual is of the least importance and have full intent on trying to take over everything they can, including pillaging Africa in a new colonialism that would make the British empire proud.

After having been the root cause of this pandemic, they are actively using the weakness of other countries to buy up everything they can at rock bottom prices. Like vulture funds, but country-size.

There are websites devoted to Chinese "buyers" for Ireland now that opportunity knocks. How nice of them.

They have literal concentration camps, active ethnic cleansing, "re-education"...

I could go on, very easily. The bottom line is that China is a problem that's going to be dealt with one way or another, and the idea of preferring living there to here?! Nooooooooo problem, baby. Fook them and the chaos they have caused

The_Brood

Gradius wrote: »

I can personally swear that I have not received anything from Mandarin candidates in China.

Virus aside, I do know a few people who couldn't get out of the place fast enough after thinking "it won't be too bad."

It's a surveillance state that took the novel 1984 as a manual.

They are regularly on the brink of disease outbreaks because they have hygiene standards akin to Victorian dumps

They have a hive mentality, like insects, where the individual is of the least importance and have full intent on trying to take over everything they can, including pillaging Africa in a new colonialism that would make the British empire proud.

After having been the root cause of this pandemic, they are actively using the weakness of other countries to buy up everything they can at rock bottom prices. Like vulture funds, but country-size.

There are websites devoted to Chinese "buyers" for Ireland now that opportunity knocks. How nice of them.

They have literal concentration camps, active ethnic cleansing, "re-education"...

I could go on, very easily. The bottom line is that China is a problem that's going to be dealt with one way or another, and the idea of preferring living there to here?! Nooooooooo problem, baby. Fook them and the chaos they have caused

At least half of what you said is nonsense and not reflective of reality - clearly you haven't spent any time there. And in any case, this isn't about the many ****ty things about China, it's about the facts of their Covid 19 situation at the moment. Which puts the entire 'enlightened' western world to absolute shame. Enjoy your 'freedoms' of 'not being surveillanced' as we rot away in endless lockdowns. Really worth it that.

Gradius

The_Brood wrote: »

At least half of what you said is nonsense and not reflective of reality - clearly you haven't spent any time there. And in any case, this isn't about the many ****ty things about China, it's about the facts of their Covid 19 situation at the moment. Which puts the entire 'enlightened' western world to absolute shame. Enjoy your 'freedoms' of 'not being surveillanced' as we rot away in endless lockdowns. Really worth it that.

Absolutely wrong.

100% plain incorrect.

Everything I mentioned is true, every last single bit.

China as a leading incubator of disease? True.

China aggressively taking over parts of Africa? True

China has a hive-like outlook? True

China caused this disease? True

China capitalising on the devastation it caused? True

China has city-sized concentration camps? True

China has ethnic cleansing underway? True

China has "re-education" centers for dissenters? True

China spies on its own citizens to a degree unheard of? True

China has a "social points" system that punishes people? True

So considering those easily verified facts, whether by BBC or even bloody RTE who were run out of the place during an investigation recently, is it any surprise that the place is portrayed as "normal"? A combination of pure lies and a government/people that enjoy crippling crack-downs on freedom.

And so forth.

So fook China and all its apologist lackeys. Ireland on its worst day will always be better than that place on its best day.

Qiaonasen

Gradius wrote: »

Absolutely wrong.

100% plain incorrect.

Everything I mentioned is true, every last single bit.

China as a leading incubator of disease? True.

China aggressively taking over parts of Africa? True

China has a hive-like outlook? True

China caused this disease? True

China capitalising on the devastation it caused? True

China has city-sized concentration camps? True

China has ethnic cleansing underway? True

China has "re-education" centers for dissenters? True

China spies on its own citizens to a degree unheard of? True

China has a "social points" system that punishes people? True

So considering those easily verified facts, whether by BBC or even bloody RTE who were run out of the place during an investigation recently, is it any surprise that the place is portrayed as "normal"? A combination of pure lies and a government/people that enjoy crippling crack-downs on freedom.

And so forth.

So fook China and all its apologist lackeys. Ireland on its worst day will always be better than that place on its best day.

Well said Gradius. China is an absolute joke and the west have enabled them through trade. Disgusting, vile, regime. Embargo.

Oranage2

China has it's ups and downs but I'd much rather live in China than Ireland. Safer, more things to do, better quality of life. Overall a great place for an ordinary person.

Qiaonasen

Oranage2 wrote: »

China has it's ups and downs but I'd much rather live in China than Ireland. Safer, more things to do, better quality of life. Overall a great place for an ordinary person.

I have lived in China for 4 years. You are either a troll or deluded.

Oranage2

Qiaonasen wrote: »

I have lived in China for 4 years. You are either a troll or deluded.

I'm neither

Qiaonasen

Oranage2 wrote: »

I'm neither

Let's settle on misinformed then.

Oranage2

Qiaonasen wrote: »

Let's settle on misinformed then.

Different cultures and lifestyles aren't for everyone

Qiaonasen

Oranage2 wrote: »

Different cultures and lifestyles aren't for everyone

I don't understand how can you think there is more things to do in China than in Ireland or how life quality would be better.

emeldc

Oranage2 wrote: »

Different cultures and lifestyles aren't for everyone

You can say that again. My other half spent 68 days in total out there last year. She was in a 'McDonalds type' restaurant one day. There was two Chinese women and a few kids sitting nearby. One of the kids stood up on the table. His mother produced a plastic bag. The kid pi$$ed into the plastic bag. They then carried on eating as normal. That's just one story. I have loads.

Oranage2

I've lived here for nearly a decade, I've seen it all. Just have to embrace it.

sabat

Gradius wrote: »

After having been the root cause of this pandemic, they are actively using the weakness of other countries to buy up everything they can at rock bottom prices. Like vulture funds, but country-size.

There are websites devoted to Chinese "buyers" for Ireland now that opportunity knocks. How nice of them.

Wait a minute. Our leaders would never take the Chinaman's shilling and sell us out. :rolleyes:

https://irelandchinainstitute.ie/board-of-directors/

And don't be ridiculous. There's no way they'd be colluding with the CCP in their plan to take over the world to take over the world. You're a conspiracy theorist. :rolleyes:

https://irelandchinainstitute.ie/research-interests/

DaSilva

Isn't it a bit simplistic to compare China to Ireland? I mean, it's got 1.4 billion people and its double the area of the EU. I'm sure in some parts of the country China is better on every conceivable aspect than Ireland and in other areas worse on every aspect.

I'm personally amazed at their success, early on I was a big skeptic of their numbers but I'm not so skeptical anymore. I think they are actually just really going for it on every front, they don't just lock down they are also making huge efforts on every front, in terms of research (multiple vaccines in the works), very impressive levels of testing and innovate methods too, their surveillance is comprehensive too. Of course it helps to be a country where privacy is much less an obstacle (not something I'm keen to have here), regardless though, they are trying in every way, unlike us who are content to take the most simplistic approach and then just blame people when it doesn't succeed.

stefanovich

Oranage2 wrote: »

China has it's ups and downs but I'd much rather live in China than Ireland. Safer, more things to do, better quality of life. Overall a great place for an ordinary person.

Unless you are part of an ethnic minority or an expendable worker.

Kivaro

Oranage2 wrote: »

China has it's ups and downs but I'd much rather live in China than Ireland. Safer, more things to do, better quality of life. Overall a great place for an ordinary person.

Go ahead and tell that to the Uyghurs who are in the lovely Chinese re-education camps, or tell that to the Tibetans.
Unless ....... you don't see them as ordinary people.

Bit cynical

Kivaro wrote: »

Go ahead and tell that to the Uyghurs who are in the lovely Chinese re-education camps, or tell that to the Tibetans.
Unless ....... you don't see them as ordinary people.

Pretty restrictive for the Han majority too if you like being able to comment on how the country is run.

Can we actually take a minute here?

People are saying China is better ran than the Ireland of today. A country which is trying to ethnically cleanse it's muslim population?

The_Brood

Deleted User wrote: »

Can we actually take a minute here?

People are saying China is better ran than the Ireland of today. A country which is trying to ethnically cleanse it's muslim population?

You can critisize a country for truthful reasons without claiming exaggerations that aren't true. For all the horrible things going on in that province, it is incorrect to say that China is trying to "ethnically cleanse" its entire Muslim population everywhere. Been to plenty of Chinese cities where Muslim people are quite happy with life.

Second of all - as a tenant in Dublin, the capital of Ireland, I am denied water, I am treated like absolute dog**** by my landlord, and there is little next to no help or justice offered from the government. Just one example, and plenty of people are worse off than me.

So yes, here's your minute and consider that. You may have a good life in Ireland, not everyone does.

Weepsie

Bit cynical wrote: »

Pretty restrictive for the Han majority too if you like being able to comment on how the country is run.

Not to mention the complete sh!tshow of Hong Kong which is kind of amounting to a military annexation.


If you are relatively upper middle class might have a better quality of life in china, but the vast majority wouldn't.

DaSilva

Come on, this thread is about how they handled the pandemic. Any general comparison of China and Ireland is too complicated for these glib posts.

They handled the pandemic way better than we have. Unless you doubt their numbers, and I used to be a skeptic, but from messages I get from inside the country its hard to keep doubting the numbers

froog

they have the money, logistics and obedience to handle any kind of pandemic. no where on earth can beat them on that.

4068ac1elhodqr

froog wrote: »

they have the money, logistics and obedience to handle any kind of pandemic. no where on earth can beat them on that.

The 'obedience' isn't naturally offered, it's enforced, with penalty.

They are indeed world leaders in many arenas, at a cost.
There is the likelyhood that the leaders in the 'West' will have to replicate this model, going forward. Not out of natural choice or desire, but competitive necessity, thanks to a combination of very unique circumstances, again with great social cost.

https://www.google.com/search?q=the+great+reset
https://www.bing.com/search?q=the+great+reset

DaSilva

froog wrote: »

they have the money, logistics and obedience to handle any kind of pandemic. no where on earth can beat them on that.

I'm not suggesting we copy them or if it would even be feasible, but their results weren't good just because they hove those resources listed, we take it for granted now that you lockdown, but they basically invented the approach, nobody really thought you could prevent the spread of a respiratory virus like that, and they executed their plan amazingly well. We haven't come up with a good custom Irish approach and we have also executed our bad imitation of theirs very poorly, meaning we get more and longer restrictions and more death and disease.

agoodpunt

China has curbs and bans on SM with controls on its pop unlike western democracies who have locally elected representation
So believe the ccp script or face there wroath
The initial outbreak was covered up, no international investigation, yet "China delays approval of the list submitted by WHO

aziz

Just read in a music production magazine (FOH online) that China held a dance music festival in august/ September over 20 days that drew over 100 000 people !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ardillaun

Our system is superior to China's in many ways but they and other East Asian countries have done far better than us in the West in this pandemic. There's no way that even the CCP could hide large outbreaks of Covid if they were still occurring. Their ability to test an entire city of millions of people in a few days is something we could all learn from. Next time a nasty virus appears we may have to go into at least full Taiwanese mode to stop it.

fly_agaric

Ardillaun wrote: »

Our system is superior to China's in many ways but they and other East Asian countries have done far better than us in the West in this pandemic. There's no way that even the CCP could hide large outbreaks of Covid if they were still occurring. Their ability to test an entire city of millions of people in a few days is something we could all learn from. Next time a nasty virus appears we may have to go into at least full Taiwanese mode to stop it.

Very true. If you are hidebound by dogma + can't adapt to face a new situation successfully your society is in trouble imo + there needs to be a bit of a rethink of approach.
This Covid-19 episode has revealed such problems in the West in general (poor political leadership, weakened public sectors that have so decayed under a constant "privatisation/deregulation" economic dogma that they cannot respond to a crisis, fixation on needs of "the economy"/wealthy interests above all, and a large segment of the public that is selfish & ignorant despite all the money that is spent on education).

stefanovich

Ardillaun wrote: »

Our system is superior to China's in many ways but they and other East Asian countries have done far better than us in the West in this pandemic. There's no way that even the CCP could hide large outbreaks of Covid if they were still occurring. Their ability to test an entire city of millions of people in a few days is something we could all learn from. Next time a nasty virus appears we may have to go into at least full Taiwanese mode to stop it.

Maybe they were all immunised pre pandemic. Let a few thousand die in Wuhan and broadcast the propaganda everywhere then allow it to escape deliberately. They have zero respect for human life anyway.

fly_agaric

stefanovich wrote: »

Maybe they were all immunised pre pandemic. Let a few thousand die in Wuhan and broadcast the propaganda everywhere then allow it to escape deliberately. They have zero respect for human life anyway.

China is horrible but they are also (unfortunately) an economic, military & technological superpower with all the resources that entails. I think alot of people have not (even now) fully woken up to that very depressing fact.

In situations like this (warfare, pandemics, other sorts of natural disasters) a competent autocracy has an advantage over democracy.
Why do democracies have "emergency powers" and the like to cope with such situations?

stefanovich

fly_agaric wrote: »

China is horrible but they are also (unfortunately) an economic, military & technological superpower with all the resources that entails. I think alot of people have not (even now) fully woken up to that depressing fact.

In situations like this (warfare, pandemics, other sorts of natural disasters) a competent autocracy has an advantage over democracy.
Why do democracies have "emergency powers" and the like to cope with such situations?

They should never have been allowed to join the WTO.

Fatal mistake.

gw80

I have to ask though,
What about those videos and photos of people dropping dead on the streets in wuhan that we all seen at the start of this pandemic, if there was photo evidence of 4 or 5 people dropping dead then there must have been a lot more that we didn't see, how come we didn't see this happening anywhere else in the world.
It is amazing that they could go from that to a 15000 strong pool party in the space of 6 month's.

stefanovich

gw80 wrote: »

I have to ask though,
What about those videos and photos of people dropping dead on the streets in wuhan that we all seen at the start of this pandemic, if there was photo evidence of 4 or 5 people dropping dead then there must have been a lot more that we didn't see, how come we didn't see this happening anywhere else in the world.
It is amazing that they could go from that to a 15000 strong pool party in the space of 6 month's.

They wanted to cause maximum economic damage world wide. Don't worry. When Biden gets in China will be appeased once more.

beauf

Ardillaun wrote: »

Our system is superior to China's in many ways but they and other East Asian countries have done far better than us in the West in this pandemic. There's no way that even the CCP could hide large outbreaks of Covid if they were still occurring. Their ability to test an entire city of millions of people in a few days is something we could all learn from. Next time a nasty virus appears we may have to go into at least full Taiwanese mode to stop it.

There's a couple of issues with this. Out breaks in China are still being reported. But they just seem to disappear from media very quickly. Also a lot of PPE and testing kits they supplied didn't work or were faulty. So either they did that deliberately or they didn't know. If they didn't know. Then what are they using internally. It must have similar failure rates.

That's the best case scenario.

stefanovich

beauf wrote: »

There's a couple of issues with this. Out breaks in China are still being reported. But they just seem to disappear from media very quickly. Also a lot of PPE and testing kits they supplied didn't work or were faulty. So either they did that deliberately or they didn't know. If they didn't know. Then what are they using internally. It must have similar failure rates.

That's the best case scenario.

Assume everything coming out of China is propaganda.

beauf

fly_agaric wrote: »

Very true. If you are hidebound by dogma + can't adapt to face a new situation successfully your society is in trouble imo + there needs to be a bit of a rethink of approach.
This Covid-19 episode has revealed such problems in the West in general (poor political leadership, weakened public sectors that have so decayed under a constant "privatisation/deregulation" economic dogma that they cannot respond to a crisis, fixation on needs of "the economy"/wealthy interests above all, and a large segment of the public that is selfish & ignorant despite all the money that is spent on education).

What you talking about is simply the result of a democracy vs dictatorship. It's also a lack of leadership that is a result of people wanting to avoid culpability because we crucify the smallest mistake. People would prefer to do nothing then risk the smallest mistake.

Supercell

I think its easy to view China through Western eyes and think our lot is far superior.
Just dont say that to my wife, who is a naturalised Irish but from China originally.

Her counter arguments might be how come you cannot walk around the streets at night safely anywhere at any time in the cities?
Why don't you have reliable underground transportation in the likes of Dublin instead of perma gridlock.
Why does everything take so long to arrive here when ordered online?
Why is our food so bland!
Why do so many Irish people talk down their country and have no civic pride? I saw a topic about children's names and someone said isn't it great disgusting irish names are leaving the top 10 or something along those lines and it got over 50 thanks..
Why does getting anything built here take so long, buildings there are worked on 24/7 with minimum disruption to everyone around them (yes i know we might say quality, but quality doesn't have to stop at 5pm Friday and restart 9am Monday)
Why are there no high speed , cheap rail links between our cities?
We say we cannot lock people in their houses aka Wuhan style last Christmas, but instead we choose to wreck out economy in slow motion with millions likely going to die of cancers and suffer long term illness both from COVID and lack of treatment for the usual suspects like cancer etc.
Why don't we test everyone and isolate off the infected in a hotel until recovered so that the virus is controlled. Would that really be more expensive than what we are going now?

Look I understand you can probably pick holes in all of these, just pointing out that as westerners we are totally biased in our opinion to a culture that is so very different to ours. Things is, many there would say the same about us. Doesn't make either view right.

beauf

Just because someone points out the negatives in one politicial system doesn't mean they are unaware of pros and cons of other systems.

Ultimately people vote with their feet, (if they are allowed). If someone thinks the West is terrible they are free to leave it. Not sure if the reverse is true in other places.

stefanovich

Supercell wrote: »

I think its easy to view China through Western eyes and think our lot is far superior.
Just dont say that to my wife, who is a naturalised Irish but from China originally.

Her counter arguments might be how come you cannot walk around the streets at night safely anywhere at any time in the cities?
Why don't you have reliable underground transportation in the likes of Dublin instead of perma gridlock.
Why does everything take so long to arrive here when ordered online?
Why is our food so bland!
Why do so many Irish people talk down their country and have no civic pride? I saw a topic about children's names and someone said isn't it great disgusting irish names are leaving the top 10 or something along those lines and it got over 50 thanks..
Why does getting anything built here take so long, buildings there are worked on 24/7 with minimum disruption to everyone around them (yes i know we might say quality, but quality doesn't have to stop at 5pm Friday and restart 9am Monday)
Why are there no high speed , cheap rail links between our cities?
We say we cannot lock people in their houses aka Wuhan style last Christmas, but instead we choose to wreck out economy in slow motion with millions likely going to die of cancers and suffer long term illness both from COVID and lack of treatment for the usual suspects like cancer etc.
Why don't we test everyone and isolate off the infected in a hotel until recovered so that the virus is controlled. Would that really be more expensive than what we are going now?

Look I understand you can probably pick holes in all of these, just pointing out that as westerners we are totally biased in our opinion to a culture that is so very different to ours. Things is, many there would say the same about us. Doesn't make either view right.

I'm sure there were many in Nazi Germany who were quite content too.

fly_agaric

beauf wrote: »

What you talking about is simply the result of a democracy vs dictatorship. It's also a lack of leadership that is a result of people wanting to avoid culpability because we crucify the smallest mistake. People would prefer to do nothing then risk the smallest mistake.

You are right about people wanting to avoid culpability for mistakes, but (talking about politics) that is the job our democratically elected leaders at this time are assigned. I'm sure none of them expected to be having to guide Ireland through a massive crisis like this when starting out in politics! It is very hard and I don't envy them at all.

I think it goes a bit beyond a pure "democracy vs dictatorship" question. I was listing particular weaknesses in Europe/the US (the West) that I think have been exposed by this event; some of them are related to the dominant economic ideology rather than too much freedom/citizen's rights/democracy getting in the way of a more effective response. If democracies cannot adapt to overcome a crisis for whatever reasons they will fail, and that is the end of democracy (leaving autocracies like China standing [or dominant] which is a disaster). Some crises will require temporary undemocratic actions to get through them unfortunately IMO.

beauf

fly_agaric wrote: »

You are right about people wanting to avoid culpability for mistakes, but (talking about politics) that is the job our democratically elected leaders at this time are assigned. I'm sure none of them expected to be having to guide Ireland through a massive crisis like this when starting out in politics! It is very hard and I don't envy them at all.

There used to be more desire to improve things and indeed the kudos as being seen as having a meaningful impact. Its been largely driven out of politics.

fly_agaric wrote: »

I think it goes a bit beyond a pure "democracy vs dictatorship" question. I was listing particular weaknesses in Europe/the US (the West) that I think have been exposed by this event; some of them are related to the dominant economic ideology rather than too much freedom/citizen's rights/democracy getting in the way of a more effective response. If democracies cannot adapt to overcome a crisis for whatever reasons they will fail, and that is the end of democracy (leaving autocracies like China standing [or dominant] which is a disaster). Some crises will require temporary undemocratic actions to get through them unfortunately IMO.

You have no way of knowing which response was the most effective response. Since China information is censored and suppressed.

Ardillaun

beauf wrote: »

There's a couple of issues with this. Out breaks in China are still being reported. But they just seem to disappear from media very quickly. Also a lot of PPE and testing kits they supplied didn't work or were faulty. So either they did that deliberately or they didn't know. If they didn't know. Then what are they using internally. It must have similar failure rates.

That's the best case scenario.

Some PPE that some Chinese companies exported was faulty after the price shot up. They sensibly kept the good stuff for themselves. Does the US buy its fighter aircraft from China? It’s time countries paid a little more to make their own masks and gowns so we’re not caught short in the same way when the next plague hits.

Ardillaun

beauf wrote: »

There used to be more desire to improve things and indeed the kudos as being seen as having a meaningful impact. Its been largely driven out of politics.

You have no way of knowing which response was the most effective response. Since China information is censored and suppressed.

We do know East Asia has done better than we did. Many of those countries, not just China, reacted quickly and decisively, and from Day 1 eejits refusing to wear masks were hard to spot.

Qiaonasen

Supercell wrote: »

I think its easy to view China through Western eyes and think our lot is far superior.
Just dont say that to my wife, who is a naturalised Irish but from China originally.

Her counter arguments might be how come you cannot walk around the streets at night safely anywhere at any time in the cities?
Why don't you have reliable underground transportation in the likes of Dublin instead of perma gridlock.
Why does everything take so long to arrive here when ordered online?
Why is our food so bland!
Why do so many Irish people talk down their country and have no civic pride? I saw a topic about children's names and someone said isn't it great disgusting irish names are leaving the top 10 or something along those lines and it got over 50 thanks..
Why does getting anything built here take so long, buildings there are worked on 24/7 with minimum disruption to everyone around them (yes i know we might say quality, but quality doesn't have to stop at 5pm Friday and restart 9am Monday)
Why are there no high speed , cheap rail links between our cities?
We say we cannot lock people in their houses aka Wuhan style last Christmas, but instead we choose to wreck out economy in slow motion with millions likely going to die of cancers and suffer long term illness both from COVID and lack of treatment for the usual suspects like cancer etc.
Why don't we test everyone and isolate off the infected in a hotel until recovered so that the virus is controlled. Would that really be more expensive than what we are going now?

Look I understand you can probably pick holes in all of these, just pointing out that as westerners we are totally biased in our opinion to a culture that is so very different to ours. Things is, many there would say the same about us. Doesn't make either view right.

This made me laugh. I am not having a go at you but I enjoyed your post because it is full of all of the Chinese nonsense which I hear regularly from my friend from Shandong. She downloads her opinions every day from WeChat because she is unable to form her own. The Chinese education system destroys all capacity for critical thinking and creativity so lots discussion with Chinese people are the same. These by the way are not real counter arguments. It's the classic whataboutism fallacy. Essentially they think pointing out the problems you have mentioned above validates their own system.

How do we know what the true crime statistics are? There is no press worth mentioning to report crime but this doesn't mean it doesn't happen. There is a huge human trafficking trade in China. Drugs. Kidnappings. Gangs. Domestic violence. They have it all but you won't hear anything about
it on a Chinese radio station. All you will get is propaganda slogans about a harmonious society.

If you look at any Chinese city it is gridlocked as well and it's not a problem exclusive to Dublin. The fact that we don't have high speed rail doesn't make us any less advanced than China. Not only that but when I worked in China and took the subway to work the Chinese were looking down on me because as I couldn't afford a car. Those who could drive to work did so so that they got face. It didn't matter that it probably took longer. The subway means you are poor and therefore worthless. It's just an example of the sort of thinking prevalent in China.

The stuff about ordering online is also stupid. It depends where you order but for example most things ordered online can be delivered next day in many countries in Europe. If this isn't the case in Ireland it is probably something else but not a problem with the country. Another example of this is Chinese people who criticise the cash based society still prevalent in countries such as Germany. All the Chinese think we are so far behind because we don't have WeChat pay and are still using credit cards for example. Apparently cities in China have gone completely cashless now but the Chinese don't understand the concept of privacy at all and don't see any dangers or disadvantages of this. They are now living in the worlds most authoritarian Orwellian state but have been conditioned and duped into thinking this is a good thing.

The food thing isn't a valid criticism and is completely subjective. There is great food in the west and also in China. I think it depends on what you are used to. You could counter it by asking why is it not possible to get safe food in China? It's very common there to have constant diarrhoea and their is huge problems with gutter oil. Check out the gutter oil scandal.

In Ireland we talk down the country because we can and are allowed to. The problem for Chinese people from the PRC is that they have been brainwashed and conditioned to think China and the Communist Party are one and the same thing. If you criticise the CPC, you are criticising the country and vice versa. Criticism of the CPC can get you sent to a black jail, concentration camp or even just straight up executed depending on the order of the day. There are people in Ireland who praise the country as well. We have freedom of speech and freedom to mock ourselves. Nobody is above ridicule.

With regard the building thing in China. It's also an absolute nightmare. China builds based on quantity rather than quality. Buildings and infrastructure collapse all the time in China because there is no quality and corners are cut. If a building contractor can make a quick buck for example by diluting the cement you can be sure he's gonna do it. Furthermore they can build all though the night and noise pollution is a huge problem in Chinese cities. Often times builders are using the jackhammer in the middle of the night without regard for anyone else and there is very little you can do. I also find it amusing that China is supposedly a collectivist society but nobody has any regard for anyone else. Fall down or have a heart attack in the street? The people will just walk passed you because there are so many scammers and crooks in China it's not worth the risk to help. There is some Good Samaritan scam running there since many years.

In Ireland we are a small island with a tiny population. Is it even economically viable or necessary to have high speed rail everywhere? But when you mention high speed rail there is a funny Chinese story. After the Wenzhou High Speed rail collision the first thing the Chinese did was try to cover it up. State media was directed not to report the crash and even engaged bulldozers to bury the wreckage. Again cover the problem, pretend it doesn't exist and bury our heads in the sand. Long live the Communist Party.

The strategy they have taken for Wuhan is not really viable. You must remember that the virus possibly spread as far as it did because of authoritarianism and lack of transparency. China's first reaction was to cover up the virus(as usual). Once they admitted the problem it was already too late.Even after they stopped flights from Wuhan to other parts of China they allowed international flights to continue. They learned literally nothing after the SARS outbreak. After that outbreak they implemented some early warning systems with the WHO in order to prevent similar things in the
future. This also failed. In many other countries, even if it started in Ireland and we had experience of previous pandemics I am confident we would have been open and said hey there is a problem here with a virus and we should tackle it. There is nothing wrong with blowing the whistle on this. In China you get arrested and told off for spreading rumors. We can do this because we are not a face based society where the aim is to look good rather than actually be good. In short China's system caused the pandemic in the first place. Just because they can weld people into homes does not not mean we should forget about that. Also we cannot really be sure this won't happen again because they won't even allow investigators into Wuhan to investigate how the thing happened. Wet market? Lab? Who knows. But if we don't figure out we won't learn anything.

Another thing to remember is the virus strategy they maintain is probably not even sustainable. Are they really going to have two weeks quarantines for everyone entering the country for the rest of eternity? Would you take their vaccine even though it hasn't been proven to work? In a country with one billion people are they going to test every city for every outbreak forever. The pandemic is just beginning and has a long long long way to go so lets reevaluate China's response when all the dust settles. I also read recently the story of an Italian journalist in Nanjing who entered China and tested negative during the quarantine period of two weeks but got Coronavirus or tested positive for it later. I am not sure if it was late incubation of community spread. Just last week they shutdown Qingdao. Are they going to do this for every single corona case? The virus will probably become endemic and recur constantly.

The Chinese dream is basically move to America and become rich and tell all your family in China you are rich and successful in the west to save face. They don't even trust their own baby formula supply. I could go on and on and on. China is not a model for anyone.