Exit poll: The post referendum thread. No electioneering.

Billy86 · 26-05-2018 5:40pm

Shurimgreat wrote: »

First off if you think flushing an aborted foetus down a toilet is civilised well done you. Little different to the Tuam babies scandal in my view. Outrage over one, the other seen as a welcone "civilising" of this country.

There ya go, didn't take long for the mask to come off.

Secondly you seemed to have picked selectively from the list.
Saudi Arabia has a limited form of abortion. Do you think this is a civilised country we should look up to?

No, I picked from the listed as Ireland was - yes for the mothers life at risk, no to everything else. Saudi Arabia allows abortion when the mother's physical health (not just life) or mental health are at risk. Ireland does not. Try again.

On the contray you have undermined your own argument. Many countries with access to abortion are completely brutal regimes with appalling human rights record eg North Korea.

See, you keep trying that one but I keep reminding you that you will have to lump them in with North America, Australia, New Zealand, South Korea, basically all of Europe and so on. You really are not doing yourself any favours here.

Here's your full and comprehensive list again, of countries with the most comparable abortion laws to us at present (thankfully we will be leaving this bracket in the coming months). I'll underline Venezuela this time, just so you don't miss it again. Like I said feel free to cling to Andorra or San Marino if you wish.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_law
Angola, Central African Republic, Republic of the Congo, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Gabon, São Tomé and Príncipe, South Sudan, Egypt, Libya, Lesotho, Djibouti, Madagascar, Malawi, Mauritius, Somalia, Iraq, Andorra, San Marino, Lebanon, Syria, Yemen, Lesotho, Guatemala, Honduras, Paraguay, Suriname, Venezuela, Tonga, Tuvalu, Papua New Guinea, Solomon Islands, Micronesia, Marshall Islands, Kiribati, Palau.

According to the poster who this started in, these are the bastions of civilizaton the rest of the world should be looking towards. Do you agree?

Noveight · 26-05-2018 5:42pm

Now that the Yes vote has gone through, is it expected to be long before abortions are taking place in Ireland?

pl4ichjgy17zwd · 26-05-2018 5:43pm

Noveight wrote:

Now that the Yes vote has gone thourh, is it expected to be long before abortions are taking place in Ireland?

Simon Harris said they hope to have legislation passed by autumn

ohnonotgmail · 26-05-2018 5:43pm

Deusexmachina wrote: »

Maybe. Its primarily elective surgery though. And even if it is valid, most people dont have a medical card.

No surgery required in the vast majority of cases when the woman is less than 12 weeks pregnant.

Billy86 · 26-05-2018 5:43pm

Noveight wrote: »

Now that the Yes vote has gone thourh, is it expected to be long before abortions are taking place in Ireland?

This morning Harris said they want to have legislation drawn up for proposal for the Oireachtas by the end of the summer, if memory serves me correct.

TheValeyard · 26-05-2018 5:43pm

Noveight wrote: »

Now that the Yes vote has gone thourh, is it expected to be long before abortions are taking place in Ireland?

Depends on legislation.

Probably have an idea on Tuesday after cabinet meeting. Plans might be set in motion then.

Sheeps · 26-05-2018 5:43pm

Noveight wrote: »

Now that the Yes vote has gone through, is it expected to be long before abortions are taking place in Ireland?

They already are taking place in Ireland.

It wasnt me123 · 26-05-2018 5:44pm

BarleySweets wrote: »

That’s not what they said at all.

.......

Thank you BarleySweets, that's exactly what I meant but you put it much more succinctly than I could. I was working at the referendum yesterday so my brain is mush today.

I said all along it would be 70/30
Yesterday I had my doubts as the no voters were vocal in their no (not rude or anything just happy to talk about their vote) and I was worried.

I'm overjoyed today.

hatrickpatrick · 26-05-2018 5:44pm

mcmoustache wrote: »

I would thank this more than once if I could. Very well expressed. I'm nearly 40 and all of that post is right on the nose.

Can I ask, how much of this was known when you were a kid / teen? I was roughly 18 when it all finally erupted to the surface of the national consciousness. Before that, as I said, I'd honestly been raised with and happily bought into the idea that Ireland was one of the greatest countries in the world, both economically and politically / socially. If you're nearly 40 then you would have lived through the 1980s - I was born in '89, so I'm a 90s kid through and through. Can you remember in the 80s and early 90s, was this stuff ever talked about? Did young people know about it? Would you have been aware, prior to the Ryan and Murphy reports, that Ireland had this horrendous litany of abuse in its recent history, or was this truly buried and sealed, waiting for the noughties to be rediscovered? Do you remember, for instance, ever hearing about the last Magdalene laundries being closed in the mid-90s, or was this just something which didn't command any sort of national prominence as a news story?

What I'm basically trying to get to the bottom of is how this could have been simultaneously such a huge cultural thing in Ireland and yet also something which shocked so many people when the reports came out. Did my family and my school teachers choose to shield my generation from this awfulness and only tell us the good things about our country, or had it genuinely just slipped out of the national psyche and been honestly overlooked as something that was important to talk about and acknowledge?

And as a second question, do you remember anything around contraception or homosexuality, and any sort of cultural change in your lifetime prior to the rapid acceleration of liberalism in the 2000s?

Feel free not to answer if any of this is too personal, but I've just always been fascinated as to how such a horrible thing could be so easily forgotten about in an entire nation's recent history. On the other hand, reading some of the stories from the victims, it would appear that at least to some extent, society at large was genuinely unaware of the horrors that were going on behind closed doors.

BarleySweets · 26-05-2018 5:47pm

Noveight wrote: »

Because their reaction seems to be making a bit of a carnival of the whole thing, like it's a personal achievement of theirs that the Yes vote has gone through. Furthermore, it is disrespectful of those who who voted No and I don't believe that is called for. Gloating over the result or claiming a moral high-ground isn't beneficial to anyone, nor is it a good reflection on a person themselves.

Indeed I do, very well.

No idea why they'd react as they have chosen to, precisely the reason why I believe it's unwarranted.

Why don’t you just stop virtue signaling and keep your nose out of other people’s business?

Let these grown adults celebrate the referendum result however they want.

It wasnt me123 · 26-05-2018 5:47pm

Noveight wrote: »

Now that the Yes vote has gone through, is it expected to be long before abortions are taking place in Ireland?

Legislation to pass before the Autumn.

I hope you and yours, like me and mine never know when abortions are taking place in Ireland. Hopefully it will never affect us.

For the women making that choice, they can discuss it with their gps and anyone else they like to without you and I needing to know anything about it but being sure in the knowledge that whoever has to make that decision will be receiving good quality medical treatment, legally.

Pherekydes · 26-05-2018 5:47pm

Sheeps wrote: »

Zero deaths by pregnancy complications would be acceptable to me. Do you have a figure or do you answer every question with another question in an attempt to dodge answering?

Sheeps · 26-05-2018 5:48pm

Pherekydes wrote: »

Thanks.

Noveight · 26-05-2018 5:50pm

BarleySweets wrote: »

Why don’t you just stop virtue signaling and keep your nose out of other people’s business?

Let these grown adults celebrate the referendum result however they want.

I was replying to another poster and in no way trying to signal my virtues. Furthermore, anything uploaded to social media is indeed intended to be everyone's business. So you suggesting for me to "mind my own" is not only inaccurate, but also tinged with hypocrisy. Don't let that deduce from the thanks you'll get from mentioning virtue signalling though.

Shurimgreat · 26-05-2018 5:50pm

Billy86 wrote: »

There ya go, didn't take long for the mask to come off.

No, I picked from the listed as Ireland was - yes for the mothers life at risk, no to everything else. Saudi Arabia allows abortion when the mother's physical health (not just life) or mental health are at risk. Ireland does not. Try again.

See, you keep trying that one but I keep reminding you that you will have to lump them in with North America, Australia, New Zealand, South Korea, basically all of Europe and so on. You really are not doing yourself any favours here.

Here's your full and comprehensive list again, of countries with the most comparable abortion laws to us at present (thankfully we will be leaving this bracket in the coming months). I'll underline Venezuela this time, just so you don't miss it again. Like I said feel free to cling to Andorra or San Marino if you wish.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_law
Angola, Central African Republic, Republic of the Congo, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Gabon, São Tomé and Príncipe, South Sudan, Egypt, Libya, Lesotho, Djibouti, Madagascar, Malawi, Mauritius, Somalia, Iraq, Andorra, San Marino, Lebanon, Syria, Yemen, Lesotho, Guatemala, Honduras, Paraguay, Suriname, Venezuela, Tonga, Tuvalu, Papua New Guinea, Solomon Islands, Micronesia, Marshall Islands, Kiribati, Palau.

According to the poster who this started in, these are the bastions of civilizaton the rest of the world should be looking towards. Do you agree?

Ok your posts are embarrassing at this point. I don't exactly know what point you are trying to make. In fact I don't think you know either. It seems to be that easy availability of abortion is the mark of a civilised nation. For the record, Cuba, North Korea and China have legal abortion on request. India has a less liberal regime but abortion is widely available, something that played a part in the estimated 60 million femicides of unborn females in that country according to some studies. Iran and Saudi Arabia had abortion laws more liberal than ours. These are not countries we should aspire to be like and I feel embarrassed for you if you think we should look up to them in any way. I've proved to you that abortion is not the hallmark of a civilised country and in the case of India it has encouraged even more backwardness when it comes to attitudes to female unborn.

I didn't even mention such bastions of modern civilisation as Sudan, Ethiopia or Kenya and several more African countries.

You've lost the argument, accept it and then we can move on.

Noveight · 26-05-2018 5:50pm

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

Legislation to pass before the Autumn.

I hope you and yours, like me and mine never know when abortions are taking place in Ireland. Hopefully it will never affect us.

For the women making that choice, they can discuss it with their gps and anyone else they like to without you and I needing to know anything about it but being sure in the knowledge that whoever has to make that decision will be receiving good quality medical treatment, legally.

Indeed, hear hear.

Nettle Soup · 26-05-2018 5:51pm

Embarrassing for Donegal. They wont even wait for them to finish counting.

tigger123 · 26-05-2018 5:53pm

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Embarrassing for Donegal. They wont even wait for them to finish counting.

Scarlet for them.

And for their Ma for having them.

Water John · 26-05-2018 5:53pm

Patrick, much older than you, male FYI. Not aware of the mother and baby homes really but nurses who are of my generation recall it in the maternity hospitals.
Most were given up for adoption. This altered radically, in the 80s.
Contraception was always a live issue. It was on this, Irish women divided from the RCC. Remember Charlie Haughey's, Irish solution for an Irish problem, where only bonefide married couples could get a prescription from their doctor.
Charlie being the huge irony.

BarleySweets · 26-05-2018 5:55pm

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

Thank you BarleySweets, that's exactly what I meant but you put it much more succinctly than I could. I was working at the referendum yesterday so my brain is mush today.

I said all along it would be 70/30
Yesterday I had my doubts as the no voters were vocal in their no (not rude or anything just happy to talk about their vote) and I was worried.

I'm overjoyed today.

Sorry I meant to actually say that I got your meaning perfectly. What you wrote was grand, the replyer seemed to be intentionally taking you out of context. So I just rewrote exactly what you said

Fair play on the 70/30 call, you were on the money!

Nettle Soup · 26-05-2018 5:56pm

The result is a mirror of the 1983 vote. The country has matured so much in 35 years and Rome no longer rules. Friends texting me from abroad to congratulate.

Great day. Well done Ireland.

ArmaniJeanss · 26-05-2018 5:58pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

C
And as a second question, do you remember anything around contraception or homosexuality, and any sort of cultural change in your lifetime prior to the rapid acceleration of liberalism in the 2000s?

I'm not sure how much of the mad stuff you know of.

Like do you know the story of Richard Bransons Virgin Megastore on the Quays beside the Halfpenny Bridge?
In 1990 they started selling their Mates brand condoms with any profits going to the Irish Family Planning Association. The authorities, at the urgings of many of the usual faces you saw in this campaign brought them to court and they got fined £500 and threatened a jail sentence if they continued. Virgin/IFPA appealed and on the day of the appeal Branson himself flew into the country to take responsibility. Bono insisted on paying the increased fine and costs after the appeal failed.

The sheer madness of the above story (which is completely true) should give you some background to this country in the year you were born.

jimmycrackcorm · 26-05-2018 6:00pm

hatrickpatrick wrote:

What I'm basically trying to get to the bottom of is how this could have been simultaneously such a huge cultural thing in Ireland and yet also something which shocked so many people when the reports came out. Did my family and my school teachers choose to shield my generation from this awfulness and only tell us the good things about our country, or had it genuinely just slipped out of the national psyche and been honestly overlooked as something that was important to talk about and acknowledge?

There was no discussion in the 80s because there was no equivalent of social media or mechanism to openly group views.

Fr_Dougal · 26-05-2018 6:01pm

BarleySweets wrote: »

Sorry I meant to actually say that I got your meaning perfectly. What you wrote was grand, the replyer seemed to be intentionally taking you out of context. So I just rewrote exactly what you said

Fair play on the 70/30 call, you were on the money!

No, you’re wrong.

retro:electro · 26-05-2018 6:01pm

captbarnacles wrote: »

I've had enough of Katie Ascough already.

She should marry Ronan Mullen and move to Donegal

Topgear on Dave · 26-05-2018 6:01pm

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

There was no discussion in the 80s because there was no equivalent of social media or mechanism to openly group views.

Also as far as I can remember there were literally zero foreigners here compared to today, and only British media. Outside influences were much less.

jimmycrackcorm · 26-05-2018 6:04pm

Santino Rich Cloak wrote:

Simon Harris said they hope to have legislation passed by autumn

Prepared for the Autumn. It could will drag out once the current hoopla dies down.

SSM is a good guideline for timeframe, but that wasn't anywhere as contentious when it comes down to the details.

Water John · 26-05-2018 6:05pm

We did converse, prior to social media.
It reminds me of Oliver Flanagan (Chalie's father) saying, there was no sex in Ireland , before television.

It wasnt me123 · 26-05-2018 6:08pm

hatrickpatrick

People knew what was happening but the hold of the RCC and curtain twitchers was such that you just didn't talk about it.

My father, who lives in Australia, phoned last week and told me about a story at Rockwell College, Cashel when he worked there as a boy of about 14, so approximately 70 years ago. He came across a baby, hidden under weeds and such on the land of the college (near the lake for those who know the area). My father told his mum who said something like never mention it again and tell no-one. My father thinks the father of the baby was a father (ie a priest).

Now last week was the first time he has ever mentioned it since. That was the type of place Ireland was - beautiful on the surface, but with an underlying ugliness. The shadow of this ugliness is finally lifting.

Billy86 · 26-05-2018 6:08pm

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Ok your posts are embarrassing at this point. I don't exactly know what point you are trying to make. In fact I don't think you know either. It seems to be that easy availability of abortion is the mark of a civilised nation. For the record, Cuba, North Korea and China have legal abortion on request. India has a less liberal regime but abortion is widely available, something that played a part in the estimated 60 million femicides of unborn females in that country according to some studies. Iran and Saudi Arabia had abortion laws more liberal than ours. These are not countries we should aspire to be like and I feel embarrassed for you if you think we should look up to them in any way. I've proved to you that abortion is not the hallmark of a civilised country and in the case of India it has encouraged even more backwardness when it comes to attitudes to female unborn.

You've lost the argument, accept it and then we can move on.

You go ahead and keep trying to make the same false statements over and over again... sure it worked wonderfully for the no crowd yesterday, didn't it?

Meanwhile, Graces7's point was that Ireland's current abortion laws represent "civilization". And I have shown you ALL of the countries that have the most similar laws. If you want to keep going fine, but you've yet to actually back up the point that any of the countries in that list are the peak of civilisation. In fact you even used what you called a "sh1thole" country as an example in Venezuela, which it turns out has remarkably similar laws to our current ones. You lost the argument when you were unable to actually point out how the list of countries I gave you were beacons of civility to back up Graces7's argument (hint: because they're not).

Countries with free abortion rights
Canada, United States, Belarus, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Hungary, Moldova, Romania, Russian Federation, Slovakia, Ukraine, Denmark, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Norway, Sweden, Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Greece, Italy, Kosovo, Montenegro, Portugal, Serbia, Slovenia, Spain, Republic of Macedonia, Austria, Belgium, France, Germany, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Switzerland, Mozambique, Tunisia, South Africa, Cape Verde, China, North Korea, Mongolia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Nepal, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Cambodia, Singapore, Vietnam, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Bahrain, Georgia, Turkey, Cuba, Guyana, Uruguay, Mexico, Australia

Are these some backwards countries in there? Sure, along with almost the entire developed world. Now let's go back and compare with those who share abortion laws most similar to ours at present once more:

All countries with abortion laws very similar to Ireland's:
Angola, Central African Republic, Republic of the Congo, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Gabon, São Tomé and Príncipe, South Sudan, Egypt, Libya, Lesotho, Djibouti, Madagascar, Malawi, Mauritius, Somalia, Iraq, Andorra, San Marino, Lebanon, Syria, Yemen, Lesotho, Guatemala, Honduras, Paraguay, Suriname, Venezuela, Tonga, Tuvalu, Papua New Guinea, Solomon Islands, Micronesia, Marshall Islands, Kiribati, Palau.

If you had to enter a lottery to live in one country from either list... which list would you prefer to be on? You don't need to answer that if you don't want to because we both know the answer already.

Exit poll: The post referendum thread. No electioneering.

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