EU draft directive to be presented on wed 19th Dec

http://www.clivebates.com/?p=739#comment-3824

Read and follow, tho having read some of the replies received by people so far I think we are wasting our time. This seems to be a done deal.

Would we have to go to Brussels? Will enough of them be here during our presidency?
Good beer in Brussels though.

Fair play to us we are making an impression;

Dear Mr tommy2bad,

Thank you for your email. Mr Aylward has received several emails and letters of a similar nature relating to concerns with the proposal from the European Commission. Mr Aylward is not a member of the Parliamentary Committee with responsibility for this Directive but he will be speaking with his colleagues working directly on this file and informing them of the concerns raised. Furthermore, Mr Aylward has also submitted a formal Written Question to the European Commission on this issue, seeking further information from the Commission, clarification on the background to this proposal and also highlighting the concerns regarding the black market. The Commission usually take 4 to 6 weeks to respond to formal requests of this nature and I will contact you with their response as soon as it is available.

I trust this information will be of interest to you and if Mr Aylward can be of further assistance please do not hesitate to contact the office.

Yours sincerely,

Laura Real
Assistant to Liam Aylward MEP

And;

Dear Mr tommy2bad,

Many thanks for your email. The Tobacco Products Directive is obviously an important piece of legislation that will come before the European Parliament in the coming months.

There are many aspect of the Commissions proposals that Paul Murphy MEP and the Socialist Party supports. However we would be concerned about the particular proposal that you outline in your email. There must be supports put in place, including cigarette replacement products, to assist people to quit smoking and to have safer and healthier alternatives.

The TPD legislation will first come before the Environment and Public Health Committee of the Parliament. Unfortunately Paul Murphy is not a member of that committee, however he will bring your concerns to the MEPs of his parliamentary group, (European United Left, GUE/NGL) that are members of that committee to see what amendments can be put.

Thanks again for your email, if you would like to discuss this matter further please do not hesitate to keep in touch.

Kind regards,

Finghín

____________________________________
Finghín Kelly
Parliamentary Assistant
Office of Paul Murphy MEP

Haven't heard from Nessa Childers yet and she is on the committee

tommy2bad wrote: »

Nessa is behind this directive and see no reason to change it. Boo for Nessa.
Won't be voting for her.

Looks like the Irish Heart Foundation needs a talking to as well. I thought these people were supposed to be well read?
Since when does "We're not sure of the risks, it needs testing." translate to "REGULATE!!! Quickly, as if money is vanishing!"?

Nessa is a shítbag of the highest order.

grindle wrote: »

Looks like the Irish Heart Foundation needs a talking to as well. I thought these people were supposed to be well read?
Since when does "We're not sure of the risks, it needs testing." translate to "REGULATE!!! Quickly, as if money is vanishing!"?

Nessa is a shítbag of the highest order.

Actually they have gone a step further and have decided that basically any nicotine delivery system other than the actual killer cigarettes themselves be marketed as a "stop smoking" devices which fall under medical jurisdiction which is outright lunacy.

Essentially they are saying.

• I can go to a newsagent, buy something that WILL kill me and give me my fix
  
• Or I can now get a prescription for the nicotine "fix" that will not kill me, is not readily available 24/7 and will probably be not available in the strengths needed to get the fix in anything other than crappy cartridges or something which is in no make shape or form addressing the habit, the cost factor or the pleasure that is vaping.

WTF ?

The Commission’s Impact Assessment recognises the uncertainty about the health effects of nicotine containing products.

Nicotine-based products (that is, products containing nicotine but which are not tobacco products, such as electronic cigarettes, nicotine gel, drinks, and sweets) are often marketed as alternatives to cigarettes and in some cases as aids to quitting smoking. In the future, these products should only be sold as quitting aids and should be required to comply with specific safety and quality requirements under the regulatory framework imposed on other pharmaceutical products.[1]

If the commission has reservations about the safety of these aids then why are they allowing them on the market in a pharmaceutical manner in the first place ?

Fishy methinks

Look we know that this is about capturing nicotine for the pharmaceutical industry, they have already done this with homeopathic and natural remedies and now want the nic market.
This regulation was written by pharma reps posing as consultants or advisors for the commission, what else did we expect.
I really think this is a done deal, it should have died with the Borge fiasco but the need to placate the pharma lobby(pharma may be Europe's largest industry) is so strong that it was back on the table within 3 months.
In spite of that I'll still have a go at them. I wont be affected personalty, I use a rebuild-able atty and diy juice so all I need to sort is a source of nic base, shouldn't be too hard from China,. What matters is the smokers who haven't yet switched being denied the easy option of switching, the attitude of 'only as a aid to quiting' will cause millions to die as the snus ban has. If ecigs are described as quit aids then the only people they will appeal to are the ones attempting to quit. Most smokers know they should but don't want to so they won't bother with ecigs anymore than they do with patches or inhalers or sprays.

Pharmacia (the then owners of Nicorette) successfully lobbied to have nicotine containing products changed to OTC (over the counter) status not requiring a prescription. They also, unsuccessfully, lobbied to have those products available in places where cigarettes were sold, i.e. newsagents etc.
It makes me wonder just how much influence the tobacco companies have, or is it simply the massive taxes provided by tobacco consumption that makes it OK to sell cigarettes everywhere? (I've read that British smokers provide almost 4 times in taxes what it costs to treat smoking related diseases).
There's no doubt though, that governments have an issue with competing nicotine products. It's kind of ironic that the tax gathering, killer products are sold with little control, while the alternatives, that are much less damaging to health are/will be subject to stringent regulation.

Personally I've tried every NRT product on the market to help me quit cigarettes. Using e-cigs has been the first time I've ever managed for any significant period.

Yes it's a bit confusing but what she meant by that was that ecigs are not a smoking substitute in the sense that patches or gum is i.e. supplying nic as you wean off. Their something to use instead of smoking.
Funny that Emmer reassured us that they were not banning them when no one accused them of banning. The reply I got from Nessa Childers (also a labor member) had the same reassurance which led me to believe she didn't read my email as I never mentioned a ban or even hinted at one. Methinks theirs a party line on this and Emmer checked it before the quote was given. The crutch bit is all hers I'm afraid.
@Was; It's worse than you think the 4 is a concentration limit, 2 is the limit on any container i.e. 1/2 ml, a detail that means only prefilled cartos and whatever the opposite of XL is, XSmall I suppose. Oh isn't that what the tobacco companies have invested in.....hmmmm I wonder.

4mg/ml in a 0.5 ml carto, aahh not too bad then will only get through 10 or 12 a day at my liquid rate

Dont forget that awesome burning taste from one outta three

The 100ml bottles of Nic I order have 10000mg in them :-O

Edit .... not a good idea on a topic about EU directives and such.

was.deevey wrote: »

It also says the medium Vaper uses 12mg which is also not quite right as the proposed legislation is 4mg TOTAL in a container, not 4ml per ml

The first thing to do when reading those announcement on Website other than the source is to find the source article - In this case its Article 18 of the proposed directive com_2012_788 located HERE

On Page 39 you will find Article 18, extract:

The following nicotine-containing products may only be placed on the market if they were authorised pursuant to Directive 2001/83/EC:
(a) products with a nicotine level exceeding 2 mg per unit, or
(b) products with a nicotine concentration exceeding 4 mg per ml or
(c) products whose intended use results in a mean maximum peak plasma
concentration exceeding 4 ng of nicotine per ml

More OFFICIAL reading HERE

ZeRoY wrote: »

The e-liquid bases are the ingredients that create the visible vapor and the “throat hit” NOT NICOTINE.

No, nicotine causes TH, no doubt about it. It can be replicated with some pepper type stuff but that wont satisfies a nic craving.

tommy2bad wrote: »

No, nicotine causes TH, no doubt about it. It can be replicated with some pepper type stuff but that wont satisfies a nic craving.

Nicotine might have a taste ok but its not what is creating the TH. The TH is provided by the base liquid composition, PG or VG based or even a MIX of both. Flavouring and also Increasing or decreasing Nicotine might result in different TH levels but again its not what causes it. My sources? Just about every FAQs from Vaping sites?

ZeRoY wrote: »

Because it needs to be proved to be a nonsense rule first. Hence why I'm asking "have you tried" to the poster.

When I switched to Ecig it took me a good few days to get accommodated and even while using the Ecig I still had cravings for first few days - which leads me to think the amount of nicotine in Cigarettes was way higher than Ecigs. Guess what? I got used to it. What I mostly like is the act of smoking/vaping - not the nicotine.

Just to be clear on this, I am on "your" side - cannot even believe they want to touch the vaping sector (although it needs regulation) and leaving the regular cigs alone ... - I merely want to know how bad it would be IF it gets to the 4mg per ml limitation.

Haven't got the links to hand but so far the research shows a correlation between nic content and effectiveness of ecigs as smoking abstinence tools.
Yes, tolerance to nic exists and ecigs can be used to reduce this, I'v done it myself.
This isn't just about us, it's about ecigs remaining a viable alternative for smokers to avail of. The proposed regulation will make general market ecigs ineffective as an alternative and authorized ecigs too restricted to be viable for anyone but the determined quitter. It's a repeat of the misguided ban on snus that has made a safer alternative to smoking unavailable to millions off European citizens.

kiffy wrote: »

What pepper type stuff is that Tommy? sounds promising for low nic vapers like me if I knew what is actually is, what about Vodka? Though I'd imagine both would make a big difference to the original taste.

Just tried some Saxa white pepper in a V Nano and couldn't stop sneezing

Capsium, it's the hot in chillies. Extra bite or one of those uses it to mimic the nic TH.
Actually its bite extra, google tells me
http://www.uvape.co.uk/Bitextra-45-10ml

kiffy wrote: »

My thought's exact a mundo Grinds, so whats E-liquid base got to do with TH as Zee mentions?

Just saw the size of this post - beer... Sorry... Palm Royale, since you ask... Yes, it's delicious.
No... Even better than that.
Explained in my (mildly vehement? :pac: ) post, PG allows more throathit because it's less viscous. The more PG, the more throathit because it doesn't soften the blow, but as we've become accustomed to vapour (vastly more than any cigarette could hope to achieve, shisha levels of cloud), that's a big trade-off.
More important than PG is the airhole alignment. If the air isn't hitting a coil dead on a 12 mg juice can get the edge on an 18mg juice that is hitting the coil for throathit.
You'll still have to vape more if you've got a craving (man, it sounds seedy said like that), but if you were to off-centre the airhole to the coil with an 18mg juice, you'd find yourself hitting it a lot less.
There's a satisfaction beyond a nicotine high says "that was a good whack" and you leave it be for a while.
Countering this is the lack of vapour from an off-centre coil, and that's part of the reason I like dual-coils. Best of both worlds, plus I like the little extra of both it delivers.
Dual-coils don't mean twice the vapour unless both coils have airholes on them, and it doesn't mean twice the throathit unless both are outside the direct range of the hole/s, it's somewhere in the middle.
1.5 times the vapour. 1.5 times the throathit.
Twisted wire set-ups are somewhere below that, middling between a single and a dual, but still give a nice enough hit in atties that don't allow duals.
They allow the wattage to be pushed higher than a single coil as well for some reason I've yet to see a reason for. If I'm on a single coil, I'll push 8-9watts, twisted coil, 12-14watts, dual coil 16-18watts.
The vape gets warmer up the scale but it spends less time being sucked on to get the hit wanted, so it's not like it's exactly twice the heat or anything.

Anyway, what a fùcking tangent - after airhole alignment, alcohol is the next best thing for what we call throathit (which is different to cig-throathit).
Closest thing to cig throathit (which I'm vaping right now) is a 12 mg Virginia Prime premixed with a few drops of chilli on a dual coil. Something about that warmth.
Gonna mix chilli with that other tobacco leaf I got recently cos it has a really ciggy taste, although I may have let it steep too long past that stage. :eek:

grindle wrote: »

If something has been tested and shows good results, how on earth is it our imperative to disprove that something is wrong?

Just being realistic here. We are no scientists, they dont pull 4mg per ml from a hat .... Im not saying its a lost cause either, hopefully enough vote/voices against will stop such limitations but if it came to it that number will not be reviewed on what users of the vaping devices think but rather on the back of scientific research in the nicotine dosage and its dangers.