EU draft directive to be presented on wed 19th Dec

kiffy

arrowloopboy wrote: »

This is not inforceable,we could just buy our juice stateside or outside europe,by the half gallon,and post it in,simples:D.

Then there's just the small problem of customs opening and seizing anything that breaches their new directive. If a half wit like me could think of doing it that way, I'm sure as hell they will, (and it is mentioned in their draft) but sure some will get through, but it probably wouldn't be my stuff though :mad:

Vaperus

http://www.avaaz.org/en/petition/No_ban_on_electronic_smoking/?aYcGXab&external
600,000 vapours in the UK and 5600 signed it worldwide doesnt really show the EU Vaping as being very serious

grindle

Vaperus wrote: »

http://www.avaaz.org/en/petition/No_ban_on_electronic_smoking/?aYcGXab&external
600,000 vapours in the UK and 5600 signed it worldwide doesnt really show the EU Vaping as being very serious

Most movie-goers have never heard of IMDB or Rotten Tomatoes.
The vast majority of people don't know the Internet exists much past eBay, Google and Facebook.
Most ecig users, naturally, have not one iota of a clue that there are forums about ecigs, and not even a notion they're about to be effectively banned.
Met three women at a house party last night who'd quit smoking with ecigs.
Had no idea about this forum (or any forum for anything - I had to ask as I don't understand how people find things out without the Internet).
Had no idea about the impending regulation that would push them back to smoking.
No surprise.

illicit007

I agree with both of you Vaperus and Grindle but can't we make a sticky at least in vaping forum for this ?

http://www.avaaz.org/en/petition/No_ban_on_electronic_smoking/?ajtGOdb&external=

kiffy

illicit007 wrote: »

I agree with both of you Vaperus and Grindle but can't we make a sticky at least in vaping forum for this ?

http://www.avaaz.org/en/petition/No_ban_on_electronic_smoking/?ajtGOdb&external=

We don't even have a forum dedicated for vaping, only a sub directory of Soc and then a sub directory of giving up smoking.

was.deevey

Every European Ecig Online store and every ecig retailer should be linking to this petition and/or getting regular pen and ink petitions made if its a brick and mortar shop.

The point needs to be made on their site via popup, email etc .. that without the support of the Vaping community around europe that it is possible that in the coming year that vaping with their favorite Juice / Device etc may be Banned or Regulated to the point of not being a viable smoking alternative.

Its just good business sense.

kiffy

Don’t know whether this is the most stupid idea I've ever had or one of the best?

But I have got the email addresses of the Chinese embassy in Dublin & London and I'm going to write to them pointing out the fact that if this directive on smoking which includes the e-cig industry if passed it will lead to a total collapse of Europe’s suppliers by the EU and the effects of the growing industry in China and more importantly the effects on China’s future growth where as it has been predicted that e-cigs will/would have overtaken the sales of Fags. They will lose a huge market for their workers and products, especially if the USA gets on the bandwagon where the only winners will be the huge fag and drug companies.

I know china holds 11 trillion of America’s debt and it must have helped in Europe’s debt crisis as well, maybe a word from the Chinese to the EU twats that it might not be in the EU's best interest to decimate the e-cig industry, might do more for us than all the letters and everything else we come up with.

Whats your thoughts on my proposed writing is it worth a shout???

The Pontiac

kiffy wrote: »

Whats your thoughts on my proposed writing is it worth a shout???

Absolutely nothing to lose.

Calibos

I for one welcome our new Mandarin speaking overlords

Vaperus

go for it Kiffy the more angles and the more people involved the better

was.deevey

email addresses of the Chinese embassy in Dublin & London

Not to sound pessimistic, but a real pen and paper letter holds a million times more weight than zero's and ones - especially to the likes of embassy's and politicians IMHO of course

kiffy

was.deevey wrote: »

Not to sound pessimistic, but a real pen and paper letter holds a million times more weight than zero's and ones - especially to the likes of embassy's and politicians IMHO of course

Think I'll do both, nothing to lose have we.

The Pontiac

I hate to say it but we're probably fighting a lost cause. The government couldn't give two shíts if all of us went back on real cigarettes tomorrow, probably be quite glad.

The tobacco industry is effectively owned by governments.

For example, in the case of a packet of 20 Benson and Hedges cigarettes, the excise content is €5.85, which equates to around 61% of the retail price. When one takes account of VAT, total tax as a percentage of price is 78%.

If e-cigs catch on in a big way (which they will) then they will lose hundreds of millions in lost revenue. Of course they're going to ban them. And now is the time, before they get really popular, so they will have less people to campaign against it.

The Pontiac

Having said that, I will still contact my local TD to see if he's capable of justifying his €120,000 annual salary, in saving people from life-threatening diseases caused by smoking.

That's if he isn't too busy doing the local elected councilor's job (parish-pumping) by getting those potholes fixed.

jakdublin

Contacting local TDs and MEPs is a great idea, as are Kiffys letters but as somebody alluded to earlier a real campaign is needed. The EC responds best to coordinated lobbying so an Irish group may need to be formed to take on the job. Maybe there's already a group out there who could do it? We'd also need to decide what we want and what's realistic. There's no regulation at the moment and like it or not, concerns have been raised at an EU level and the European Commission has taken it upon itself to address those concerns. I think the point is how they're addressed. Regulation will more than likely come in some shape or form, as it's difficult to argue that a product containing an addictive drug shouldn't be subjected to some kind of quality control. However, I think we're all in agreement that the proposed 4mg level is not acceptable and in my view neither is categorising juice as a medicinal product. So maybe the campaign should be aimed at what we want rather than what we don't want. Hypothetically, I wouldn't be against regulation that targets quality control but how do you introduce it without letting officials destroy the market by preventing us from getting juice with an acceptable level of nicotine content or in the flavours that help keep us from straying back to cigarettes?

Here's a link on how to go about lobbying the European Commission, http://www.ngoeuconnect.ie/content.php?area=26

kiffy

jakdublin wrote: »

Contacting local TDs and MEPs is a great idea, as are Kiffys letters but as somebody alluded to earlier a real campaign is needed. The EC responds best to coordinated lobbying so an Irish group may need to be formed to take on the job. Maybe there's already a group out there who could do it? We'd also need to decide what we want and what's realistic. There's no regulation at the moment and like it or not, concerns have been raised at an EU level and the European Commission has taken it upon itself to address those concerns. I think the point is how they're addressed. Regulation will more than likely come in some shape or form, as it's difficult to argue that a product containing an addictive drug shouldn't be subjected to some kind of quality control. However, I think we're all in agreement that the proposed 4mg level is not acceptable and in my view neither is categorising juice as a medicinal product. So maybe the campaign should be aimed at what we want rather than what we don't want. Hypothetically, I wouldn't be against regulation that targets quality control but how do you introduce it without letting officials destroy the market by preventing us from getting juice with an acceptable level of nicotine content or in the flavours that help keep us from straying back to cigarettes?

Here's a link on how to go about lobbying the European Commission, http://www.ngoeuconnect.ie/content.php?area=26

There’s a misconception over this 4mg max level (as if this wasn’t bleeding bad enough, I was put wise to it myself my Tommy4gud when I thought I might be able to survive at 4mg/ or at least try it) any container of e-liquid (bottle/cartridge) housing nicotine cannot have a concentration in it higher than 2mg, that’s a 60ml bottle can have no more than 2mg total nic in it, same for a 10ml or a 5ml, obviously 60ml bottle with just 2mg total in it is worse than useless and the same for any sized bottle.

The 4mg is the max strength of any nic carrying container and that is only possible to reach that 4mg strength with something as small as 0.5ml bottle = 0.5 x 2mg = 4mg total strength (ever seen one that small) even a 5ml bottle at 4mg is giving total concentration of 20mg ten times their permitted level, that is why e-liquids will be totally useless if this directive comes in as is.

So even a 4mg dose is a no-no (unless your device is 0.5ml or less, good luck finding one though.

They have left us with a few legal choices.

1: order whatever bottle you wish with a 2mg max nic in it and a heath warning that you may fell a teeniest amount of nic in this if your lucky.
2: switch to medicinal devices supplied by tobacco companies at almost fag prices.
3: go back on the fags.
4: vape zero nic from then on.
Oh and almost forgot pack it all in and be a good little boy/girl.
p.s. even Victors from e-cigshop.eu is under the understanding of 4mg strength max as I saw in his email to his customers, not that it matters much 2mg/4mg is death of vaping as we know it.

tommy2bad

jakdublin wrote: »

Contacting local TDs and MEPs is a great idea, as are Kiffys letters but as somebody alluded to earlier a real campaign is needed. The EC responds best to coordinated lobbying so an Irish group may need to be formed to take on the job. Maybe there's already a group out there who could do it? We'd also need to decide what we want and what's realistic. There's no regulation at the moment and like it or not, concerns have been raised at an EU level and the European Commission has taken it upon itself to address those concerns. I think the point is how they're addressed. Regulation will more than likely come in some shape or form, as it's difficult to argue that a product containing an addictive drug shouldn't be subjected to some kind of quality control. However, I think we're all in agreement that the proposed 4mg level is not acceptable and in my view neither is categorising juice as a medicinal product. So maybe the campaign should be aimed at what we want rather than what we don't want. Hypothetically, I wouldn't be against regulation that targets quality control but how do you introduce it without letting officials destroy the market by preventing us from getting juice with an acceptable level of nicotine content or in the flavours that help keep us from straying back to cigarettes?

Here's a link on how to go about lobbying the European Commission, http://www.ngoeuconnect.ie/content.php?area=26

Good point about campaigning for what we want rather than what we are against, so what do we want? This is from ASH;

If they are to compete with tobacco products,pure nicotine products must be sold on equal terms or better:
pricing should favour pure nicotine products over tobacco. Public education is also needed as many smokers
(and health professionals) have a poor understanding of the relative safety of pure nicotine products including nicotine replacement therapy.

I think this is the tack we need to take, as smokers will not switch from cigarettes if the alternative is expensive, inefficient, ineffective and promoted as a quit method. Regulation that is onerous will not help to improve a product or promote it expansion as a smoking alternative.
Other than standard trading standards no regulation is needed.

was.deevey

There is currently no limit on the amount of Nicotine that is in cigarettes, nor a limit on the amount of cigarettes you could in theory buy or smoke per day - I'm sure we all know (or knew) a few 60 a day smokers.

This is another adult product for an adult market, where we are currently expected to be responsible and not push our own individual limits and so long as we pay our "sin tax" - limits should not be imposed by regulation, but as with cigarettes and alcohol bear warnings about the potential dangers of overdoing it.

If the limits on ecigs/nicotine products are to be imposed, I would call for the SAME limits and bans to be put on all tobacco products where each box of cigarettes (which can be no less than 20) would contain 4mg of nicotine.

Seems fair doesn't it?

If they are to compete with tobacco products,pure nicotine products must be sold on equal terms or better:

Unfortunatly the ruling is aimed at completely eradicating tobacco products altogether in the future not provide competing alternatives.

Public education is also needed as many smokers
(and health professionals) have a poor understanding of the relative safety of pure nicotine products including nicotine replacement therapy.

NRT should never IMHO be even mentioned in the same document as Electronic Cigarettes/Vaping

tommy2bad

The trouble is convincing the good members that ecigs are a real benefit in the anti smoking effort. What I left out of that last post is the argument that as smoking is declining in the EU generally the decline is not fast enough, new smokers are replacing former (i.e. dead) smokers faster than is desirable, to combat this we need alternative products that replicate the pleasurable effects of smoking without the harmfull effective. Ecigs are that product. The fact that without the nic content they are not regulated shows that the EU is cool wih the product concept, just the Pharma grip on nic delivery systems that seems to cause the problem. What we need to press home is the fact that it's the nic that makes the product effective as a smoking replacement, one that while not 100% safe (what is?) is orders of magnitude safer (and consequently less resource consuming) than a product that requires inhalation of smoke with all it attendant toxins.
Yes I realize that protecting the market for Big Pharma is the purpose of this directive but I hope that the average MEP is too stupid to realize this or that at best they can be embarrassed into accepting our argument.

I have also noticed a degree of fatalism on the various forums I follow, a sort of 'they will do what they like no matter what we say' attitude. I say let them, what we do shouldn't be dictate by their presumptions or our presumptions. this matters too much to let a bunch of politicians dictated by vested interests dictate the options available to real world people regarding their health.


Have any of you any idea how hard it is to post sh1t like this on a phone while drunk, now do you know how much this matters? Back to drinking my Tokyo Intergalactic fantastic stout, stop winding me up

grindle

tommy2bad wrote: »

Back to drinking my Tokyo Intergalactic fantastic stout

Have we all got amazing taste in beer or what?

La Goudale over here.



Now... Get back on topic!

tommy2bad

Tell you one thing, I'm never going near Tokyo interwhatever again, has me twisted after two, I'm watching Showcase on sky and don't care, if it wasn't for spell check you couldn't read this post.

kiffy

Well I got my first reply from our MEP's

Dear Mr Kiff,

Thank you for your email. Mr Aylward will follow up with the Commission on several of the issues and concerns you have raised and I will get back to you with further information as soon as possible.

Yours sincerely,

Laura Real
Assistant to Liam Aylward MEP

Nice to get a reply from someone.;)

Though they had to look hard to find it as it was a suspected spam email
(Subject: [SPAM SUSPECTED] EU directive on electronic cigarettes)

But not such an all important issue anymore for me now as I'm almost Nic free But I'm routing for the rest of yee and fighting your corner. C'mon ya boyo's.

aerosol

That's great Kiffy,I'd forgot this thread was on this forum,I should of put my little contribution thing here!

achieve

kiffy wrote: »

Well I got my first reply from our MEP's

Dear Mr Kiff,

Thank you for your email. Mr Aylward will follow up with the Commission on several of the issues and concerns you have raised and I will get back to you with further information as soon as possible.

Yours sincerely,

Laura Real
Assistant to Liam Aylward MEP

Nice to get a reply from someone.;)

Though they had to look hard to find it as it was a suspected spam email
(Subject: [SPAM SUSPECTED] EU directive on electronic cigarettes)

But not such an all important issue anymore for me now as I'm almost Nic free But I'm routing for the rest of yee and fighting your corner. C'mon ya boyo's.

I got same reply from Liam Aylward / Laura

tommy2bad

Thats not a reply, thats an acknowledgement of receiving a correspondence. Form reply, this is depressing.

tommy2bad

http://www.clivebates.com/?p=739#comment-3824

Read and follow, tho having read some of the replies received by people so far I think we are wasting our time. This seems to be a done deal.

kiffy

tommy2bad wrote: »

Thats not a reply, thats an acknowledgement of receiving a correspondence. Form reply, this is depressing.

Granted Tommy but the bit I was slightly pleased to see was "Mr Aylward will follow up with the Commission on several of the issues and concerns you have raised and I will get back to you" so from the sounds of it he will at least be asking questions otherwise how can he get back to me on the issues. Better than fu.c.k all init, maybe false hope/promises but not giving up just yet, there's still the alternative of the Greek route, anyone fancy a few days break in Brussels and petrol bomb the ba.star.ds :mad:

tommy2bad

Would we have to go to Brussels? Will enough of them be here during our presidency?
Good beer in Brussels though.

achieve

When sending letter re: Tobacco Directive, I also sent a copy to Prof Luke Clancy, of ASH Ireland. Although ASH do not condone the use of ecigs, the person from ASH who replied to me directed me to this link. http://www.ash.org.uk/files/documents/ASH_715.pdf Well worth reading, and although I would have a few niggles, I think this brief should be welcomed by vapers.

tommy2bad

Fair play to us we are making an impression;

Dear Mr tommy2bad,

Thank you for your email. Mr Aylward has received several emails and letters of a similar nature relating to concerns with the proposal from the European Commission. Mr Aylward is not a member of the Parliamentary Committee with responsibility for this Directive but he will be speaking with his colleagues working directly on this file and informing them of the concerns raised. Furthermore, Mr Aylward has also submitted a formal Written Question to the European Commission on this issue, seeking further information from the Commission, clarification on the background to this proposal and also highlighting the concerns regarding the black market. The Commission usually take 4 to 6 weeks to respond to formal requests of this nature and I will contact you with their response as soon as it is available.

I trust this information will be of interest to you and if Mr Aylward can be of further assistance please do not hesitate to contact the office.

Yours sincerely,

Laura Real
Assistant to Liam Aylward MEP

And;

Dear Mr tommy2bad,

Many thanks for your email. The Tobacco Products Directive is obviously an important piece of legislation that will come before the European Parliament in the coming months.

There are many aspect of the Commissions proposals that Paul Murphy MEP and the Socialist Party supports. However we would be concerned about the particular proposal that you outline in your email. There must be supports put in place, including cigarette replacement products, to assist people to quit smoking and to have safer and healthier alternatives.

The TPD legislation will first come before the Environment and Public Health Committee of the Parliament. Unfortunately Paul Murphy is not a member of that committee, however he will bring your concerns to the MEPs of his parliamentary group, (European United Left, GUE/NGL) that are members of that committee to see what amendments can be put.

Thanks again for your email, if you would like to discuss this matter further please do not hesitate to keep in touch.

Kind regards,

Finghín

____________________________________
Finghín Kelly
Parliamentary Assistant
Office of Paul Murphy MEP

Haven't heard from Nessa Childers yet and she is on the committee