Saracens Salarygate: Automatic Relegation?

prawnsambo · 17-01-2020 11:07pm

Downlinz wrote: »

Is there enough cap space on the other sides to take all the English internationals without dramatic pay cuts? They can't move abroad and play test rugby by the RFU rules so could a few of them sit on their contracts rather than take a big pay cut?

Not a chance. They are all right up to the cap.

Squidgy Black · 17-01-2020 11:10pm

It'll be next season before any teams could even contemplate taking on any big contracts, but the funny thing is the cap is to be reviewed at the end of this season so there's a good chance it could be increased to allow for the Exodus.

prawnsambo · 17-01-2020 11:16pm

Squidgy Black wrote: »

It'll be next season before any teams could even contemplate taking on any big contracts, but the funny thing is the cap is to be reviewed at the end of this season so there's a good chance it could be increased to allow for the Exodus.

It will mean a cut in pay for these guys though. You can't 'dump' that number of players on a saturated market and expect the same rates.

Squidgy Black · 17-01-2020 11:30pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

It will mean a cut in pay for these guys though. You can't 'dump' that number of players on a saturated market and expect the same rates.

I dunno, for the big name internationals there's a good chance the market will still hold strong with the cap credits for being an international player and also international windows. There's only 6 big name English players who'd be on the market (the Vunipolas, George, Farrell, Itoje, Daly). Kruis is reportedly off to Japan, and Singleton wouldn't be commanding a big salary regardless.

They'll definitely be facing a pay cut but I still think the demand would probably be there amongst the clubs for those names.

connemara man · 17-01-2020 11:30pm

This is a good look...

https://twitter.com/danroan/status/1218237938569486344?s=19

prawnsambo · 17-01-2020 11:47pm

Squidgy Black wrote: »

I dunno, for the big name internationals there's a good chance the market will still hold strong with the cap credits for being an international player and also international windows. There's only 6 big name English players who'd be on the market (the Vunipolas, George, Farrell, Itoje, Daly). Kruis is reportedly off to Japan, and Singleton wouldn't be commanding a big salary regardless.

They'll definitely be facing a pay cut but I still think the demand would probably be there amongst the clubs for those names.

It's the quantity at one time as well as the other clubs having their books full. You have to find a club that's losing a big name or two at the same time. Inevitably there might be one or two, but after that it could be a hard sell.

17-01-2020 11:49pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

Cheers. Still not seeing anything other than the odd few throwing questions around or being a bit disingenuous even. But a lot are like this one:

Sarries Fans forum on Facebook was full of it

BonnieSituation · 18-01-2020 12:49am

prawnsambo wrote: »

Not a chance. They are all right up to the cap.

Right up against the cap because of the wage structures in place due to Saracens paying through the nose and having other teams making a bollox of their structures to keep pace?

Bridge93 · 18-01-2020 12:50am

So after all the hot air blown up his ass by Sarries fans and the media for what’s he’s done for rugby, Nigel Wrays legacy may end up being bringing the curtain down on the club he loved. So sweet, his disregard for fair competition and continuing lack of taking any blame or apologizing shows what he really his. A power hungry and greedy bully who thought he was above the law.

Now that I say that, I think there’s a lonely bloke seen wandering around Abbotstown looking for a new drinking buddy now he can’t buy Irish football fans’ silence and support with cans of carlsberg anymore. Answers to Delaney I believe

Podge_irl · 18-01-2020 12:51am

molloyjh wrote: »

Yeah theres a real human element to this people are forgetting in their delight. People who had nothing to do with the cheating will lose their jobs. Some will forever be stained by what has happened. And the real culprits, the likes of Nigel Wray for example, get to walk away. This is exactly what the club deserves, but the people in it arent all guilty and dont all deserve this. Celebrating people losing their jobs is nasty. End of. I'm glad they were caught and I'm glad the punishment is as harsh as it should be. But I take no actual pleasure from the fact that it is happening. People need to remember the human cost of this.

A team was going to get relegated one way or the other. Better Saracens then a team playing by the rules.

Jmccoy1 · 18-01-2020 4:07am

Have to say I am taking great pleasure in watching the demise of this band of cheats.

prawnsambo · 18-01-2020 10:15am

Riskymove wrote: »

as I said I have no sympathy but think it should have been reported on earlier and Sarries either relegated or given the full points deduction at an earlier time

To be fair, they were given two concurrent points deductions of 35 points for the two seasons they were found to have breached the cap. There's a strong argument that the points deductions should have been consecutive, but I can understand the desire not to hammer them out of the league in one fell swoop.

However, they're getting another 35 points deduction for not being able to demonstrate compliance for this season and their stated inability to do so. There was no way that PRL could have imposed that deduction before they could confirm that it was the case they would be in breach again.

stephen_n · 18-01-2020 10:29am

prawnsambo wrote: »

To be fair, they were given two concurrent points deductions of 35 points for the two seasons they were found to have breached the cap. There's a strong argument that the points deductions should have been consecutive, but I can understand the desire not to hammer them out of the league in one fell swoop.

However, they're getting another 35 points deduction for not being able to demonstrate compliance for this season and their stated inability to do so. There was no way that PRL could have imposed that deduction before they could confirm that it was the case they would be in breach again.

Does that mean they will have a 35 point reduction in the championship then?

prawnsambo · 18-01-2020 10:42am

stephen_n wrote: »

Does that mean they will have a 35 point reduction in the championship then?

No. The extra deduction is for this season for the breach this season. The previous one was for the last two seasons.

stephen_n · 18-01-2020 11:15am

prawnsambo wrote: »

No. The extra deduction is for this season for the breach this season. The previous one was for the last two seasons.

Sorry misread what you said, was thinking consecutive not concurrent.

molloyjh · 18-01-2020 11:21am

Podge_irl wrote: »

A team was going to get relegated one way or the other. Better Saracens then a team playing by the rules.

True, but did people get pleasure out of seeing Newcastle relegated last season? It's never a good thing and should never be celebrated like this given how damaging it is to people.

stephen_n · 18-01-2020 11:29am

molloyjh wrote: »

True, but did people get pleasure out of seeing Newcastle relegated last season? It's never a good thing and should never be celebrated like this given how damaging it is to people.

I’d agree whole heartedly about the staff and people at the club, some of whom have probably been involved a very long time. I’d have to say after Newcastle last year I have difficulty feeling bad for their fans though. Ultimately it’s a lot fairer than it would be if Bath, Leicester or LI go down when they didn’t cheat (AFAIK).

irishbucsfan · 18-01-2020 3:16pm

molloyjh wrote: »

True, but did people get pleasure out of seeing Newcastle relegated last season? It's never a good thing and should never be celebrated like this given how damaging it is to people.

I’d take pleasure that Saracens are going down for cheating instead of someone who played by the rules.

Bazzo · 18-01-2020 8:21pm

How many babies do ye reckon Leicester sacrificed to achieve this?

durkadurka · 18-01-2020 8:22pm

BBC tweeted that premiership rugby has confirmed that Saracens will be relegated

Squidgy Black · 18-01-2020 8:23pm

durkadurka wrote: »

BBC tweeted that premiership rugby has confirmed that Saracens will be relegated

https://twitter.com/BBCSport/status/1218613949702209536?s=19

Saracens chairman Neil Golding: “I acknowledge the club has made errors in the past and we unreservedly apologise for those mistakes. I and the rest of the Board are committed to overseeing stringent new governance measures to ensure regulatory compliance going forward.’’

LuckyGent88 · 18-01-2020 8:25pm

Holy ****!! Didn’t think it was actually going to happen.

Just mental really. Going to be so interesting to follow what will happen the players now. What will the English internationals do and a lions series coming next year

Banner2theend · 18-01-2020 8:25pm

durkadurka wrote: »

BBC tweeted that premiership rugby has confirmed that Saracens will be relegated

Wow!!! Imagine the scenes tomorrow at Allianz Park. As a Munster fan it won't be Thomand Park, that will be my focus on the box come 1 pm tomorrow.

Squidgy Black · 18-01-2020 8:28pm

LuckyGent88 wrote: »

Holy ****!! Didn’t think it was actually going to happen.

Just mental really. Going to be so interesting to follow what will happen the players now. What will the English internationals do and a lions series coming next year

Even in the short term it'll be wild to see how things go. They're still in contention of a playoff spot for the Champions Cup, but have to win tomorrow at home to Racing. I'd love to be a fly on the wall in that dressing room, it's impossible to tell how the players will react to the news.

durkadurka · 18-01-2020 8:30pm

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Even in the short term it'll be wild to see how things go. They're still in contention of a playoff spot for the Champions Cup, but have to win tomorrow at home to Racing. I'd love to be a fly on the wall in that dressing room, it's impossible to tell how the players will react to the news.

I wouldn’t be surprised if they played out of their skin.
They have zero else to play for

LuckyGent88 · 18-01-2020 8:30pm

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Even in the short term it'll be wild to see how things go. They're still in contention of a playoff spot for the Champions Cup, but have to win tomorrow at home to Racing. I'd love to be a fly on the wall in that dressing room, it's impossible to tell how the players will react to the news.

Not sure if it’s possible but I’d love if they got Exeter in the quarter finals!!

Banner2theend · 18-01-2020 8:34pm

Does anyone know about who has the TV rights to the 2020/21 English Championship rugby. If Sky loses these rights, then that will be ultimate kiss of death for them, considering events tonight.

Squidgy Black · 18-01-2020 8:35pm

durkadurka wrote: »

I wouldn’t be surprised if they played out of their skin.

I'd imagine so, particularly with the 6 Nations around the corner, but it's also hard to imagine how some of their big names will react and whether they'll be thinking more of the future.

If they win tomorrow, it adds extra games to their season that they have to play in and risk injury etc. On the other hand it's a higher level platform for them to put themselves on the market.

It all comes down to how much the players have actually bought into the whole "culture" thing at Sarries or whether they were really just there for the paycheck

thomond2006 · 18-01-2020 8:35pm

Now now, Shillphen Jones promised us the real story in the Sunday Times tomorrow.

durkadurka · 18-01-2020 8:38pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

Now now, Shillphen Jones promised us the real story in the Sunday Times tomorrow.

I am buying the ST tomorrow, it’s going to be so enjoyable

Dave_The_Sheep · 18-01-2020 8:39pm

Given he probably wrote the article on Monday last, it'll probably be ****e.

He's not great at actual facts.

Burkie1203 · 18-01-2020 9:03pm

https://twitter.com/AndyGoode10/status/1218623547293229056?s=19

ScrubsfanChris · 18-01-2020 9:04pm

From that bbc story:

The club will finish this season before entering the Championship for 2020-21.
This decision also means that should the club successfully retain its European Champions Cup crown, they would not be permitted to defend the title next season.

What the hell is the point in continuing to play then? Especially if they meet Leinster in the QFs
Club loyalty? :pac:

Dave_The_Sheep · 18-01-2020 9:10pm

ScrubsfanChris wrote: »

From that bbc story:

What the hell is the point in continuing to play then? Especially if they meet Leinster in the QFs
Club loyalty? :pac:

Sheer bloody-minded pride, and proving yourself to potential employers.

ScrubsfanChris · 18-01-2020 9:11pm

Looking at who will jump ship, both Farrell and Itoje are contracted until summer 2022

prawnsambo · 18-01-2020 9:12pm

ScrubsfanChris wrote: »

Looking at who will jump ship, both Farrell and Itoje are contracted until summer 2022

Apparently Farrell said he was staying when they had that meeting yesterday.

18-01-2020 9:18pm

Burkie1203 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/AndyGoode10/status/1218623547293229056?s=19

If true that's probably the most damning thing to come out of this.

lotmc · 18-01-2020 9:21pm

Wonder when players will start leaving? The wheels might start coming off soon (before Euro quarter finals) if there are key short-term departures, but as most english premiership teams dont have capacity within salary cap, france is the most realistic option.

ScrubsfanChris · 18-01-2020 9:21pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

Apparently Farrell said he was staying when they had that meeting yesterday.

lawrencesummers · 18-01-2020 9:23pm

This has just been handled very poorly by the league from start to finish and the other clubs have paid the price time and time again.

Taking three years to get to the bottom of something meant other clubs suffered for far longer than necessary, clubs missed out on prizes and players missed out on titles, win bonuses and everything that comes with it. Clubs missed out on the opportunity to play in the champions cup.

Delaying the announcement of the result of the investigation until after england were put out of the WC only added to the delay and meant Sarries and their league opponents were not playing against each other evenly at the start of the season.

Now deciding mid season that they will be relegated means that the teams they played since the points deduction faced a far harder prospect to the teams that will face them from here on in.

The clubs should be looking for all their results this season against Sarries to be Declared null and void.

The bulk if not all of Sarries players are not to blame for this, they signed individual contracts not knowing what the management was doing wrong and now find themselves playing a half season of rugby unable to win the competition that they are putting their bodies on the line in.

This breach should have been found and sanctioned In the off season two seasons ago.

It makes a mockery of the entire English rugby setup from start to finish

Guy:Incognito · 18-01-2020 9:25pm

Presumably they'll completely bin the league games, playing lads sparingly if they need to keep fitness but otherwise playing fringe players and concentrate fully on the champions cup this year?

While it wont get them in next year, it would be a trophy.

jr86 · 18-01-2020 9:28pm

durkadurka wrote: »

I wouldn’t be surprised if they played out of their skin.
They have zero else to play for

Yeah I've a feeling they'll thump Racing tomorrow

Must be very difficult for the likes of Farrell who has been with the club his whole life and as a guy in his 20s, he made his debut a whopping 12 years ago! :eek:

thomond2006 · 18-01-2020 9:29pm

Accepting relegation instead of an audit.
Nothing else needs to be said.

Dave_The_Sheep · 18-01-2020 9:30pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

Accepting relegation instead of an audit.
Nothing else needs to be said.

Anyone with a twitter account (I don't) should be getting stuck into Saracen's sponsors online to see if they crack, just to really drive it home.

But more seriously, you'd have to wonder, if it turns out that many of Saracen's squad stays, and they didn't open for an audit, quite how much the players have/will continue to benefit from whatever setup the have going on that isn't within the rules.

Squidgy Black · 18-01-2020 9:42pm

Realistically, even though there's no salary cap in the Championship, they're going to have to cut their wage bill by what you would imagine is a significant amount (considering their refusal to open the books) to get back into the Premiership at the end of next season to comply with the cap. Are many players going to want to hang around and help them get promoted to then risk being cut at the end of it all or not re-signed?

thomond2006 · 18-01-2020 9:46pm

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Realistically, even though there's no salary cap in the Championship, they're going to have to cut their wage bill by what you would imagine is a significant amount (considering their refusal to open the books) to get back into the Premiership at the end of next season to comply with the cap. Are many players going to want to hang around and help them get promoted to then risk being cut at the end of it all or not re-signed?

I have a feeling money may be hard to come by.
Allianz may not want to be involved in Allianz Park anymore.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 18-01-2020 9:54pm

ScrubsfanChris wrote: »

Looking at who will jump ship, both Farrell and Itoje are contracted until summer 2022

I dont believe this is relevant.

Most top players are likely to have a relegation release clause.

Squidgy Black · 18-01-2020 9:55pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

I have a feeling money may be hard to come by.
Allianz may not want to be involved in Allianz Park anymore.

You would have to wonder about Wray's statement that they'll still be bankrolled by the family trust too.

Hurrache · 18-01-2020 9:57pm

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Realistically, even though there's no salary cap in the Championship, they're going to have to cut their wage bill by what you would imagine is a significant amount (considering their refusal to open the books) to get back into the Premiership at the end of next season to comply with the cap. Are many players going to want to hang around and help them get promoted to then risk being cut at the end of it all or not re-signed?

Pretty much
[url]

https://twitter.com/LauraScott__/status/1218630797932011523?s=19[/url]

durkadurka · 18-01-2020 9:58pm

Squidgy Black wrote: »

You would have to wonder about Wray's statement that they'll still be bankrolled by the family trust too.

Add in the tv money and ticket sales drop off and it starts to look like a disaster.

Plus: the players are probably kissing the badge and saying Saracens forever but wait till their agents ring them on Monday for a reality check.

Then Eddie Jones tells them next week that they need to be playing top flight rugby.

Saracens Salarygate: Automatic Relegation?

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