Biofarm 2020

yosemitesam1 · 18-11-2020 8:33pm

Say my name wrote: »

Next time you see them ask about this peer reveiwed study.

https://www.canterbury.ac.nz/news/2018/new-study-links-common-herbicides-and-antibiotic-resistance.html

And don't forget not per the study but common sense that there's antibiotic bacteria already present in the soil or we wouldn't have penecillin and soil is where we continue to find our antibiotics. Even now commercializing them.

How does it compare to everyday chemicals both natural and synthetic?
I'm sure there's plenty of naturally occurring chemicals out there that can increase the development of antibiotic resistance. Focusing on herbicides alone tells nothing of the true story.

Say my name · 18-11-2020 9:02pm

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

How does it compare to everyday chemicals both natural and synthetic?
I'm sure there's plenty of naturally occurring chemicals out there that can increase the development of antibiotic resistance. Focusing on herbicides alone tells nothing of the true story.

Well you haven't denied the study nor it's findings.

Now consider a solution that's commercially available and promoted to be used by gardeners, horticulturalists, farmers on soil. We are all told it's fine.
A study comes out that shows it favours antibiotic resistant bacteria wherever it is spread. We are still told its fine.
Gm crops are engineered to be resistant to glypho and thus it's sprayed on and enters the animal and food chain. The glypho goes into our own gut biome and the animals and if it's like the study favours antibiotic resistant bacteria in the gut. We are still told it's fine.
More animals and people are born and raised nowadays with bacteria resistant to antibiotics in their gut. We are told this is not fine.
Glypho has been detected in human breast milk. We are told this is fine.

Who makes money nowadays from farming and who wants to keep the status quo?
With these naturally occurring chemicals always available why have these problems only occurred with microbial antibiotic resistance nowadays?

I dunno, I've a feeling in fifty years time the public and farmers will be looking back like we are at DDT and asbestos and saying how silly those people were.

We'll all be looking for untouched unsprayed forest virgin soil for microbes to repopulate our farmland.

alps · 18-11-2020 9:16pm

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Trefoil does well where pH wouldn't be up to scratch and persists ok if not grazed too hard.
Don't think that things should really be much more complicated over here than a mix of grasses, red/white/alsike clover and plantain

Any opinions on diploid/tetraploid grasses. Do the companion plants have a preference.

Would clover and plantain need a diploid companion if only to give carrying capacity from a trafficability pov..?

yosemitesam1 · 18-11-2020 10:17pm

alps wrote: »

Any opinions on diploid/tetraploid grasses. Do the companion plants have a preference.

Would clover and plantain need a diploid companion if only to give carrying capacity from a trafficability pov..?

Modern clover is much more competitive under high fertility than the old types so you should start with what your current preferred mix of diploid/tetraploids and work from there would be my opinion.
N use, grazing management and land type will probably influence things more

Gawddawggonnit · 19-11-2020 8:12am

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Think that soil science can be simplified down to the following to get the vast majority of soils working well with good carbon content as well as improving trace element balance and structure.
Maintain good pH
Keep moderate amounts of p and k ideally supplied through organic forms
Keep a reasonably diverse sward (or else a decent rotation with cover crops)
Minimize tillage/bare soil
Minimize n use to less than about 50kg/ha or so.
Probably is a role for composts etc but would view it more as something that could speed up the results from above or make up for shortcomings, rather than something of essential importance.

The science has been done that if you feed heavy with n and p that plants give back less to the soil and the whole thing starts to unravel. As the very basis of good soil structure and strong msoil microbial communities is reliant on plants wanting to interact more with the soil.

Diversity builds a more beneficial soil microbial community as it's a much less specialised job to have a mutually beneficial relationship than it is to circumvent the defences plants have against parasites and disease.
The savings from that switch are fairly large and can mean that there's even more energy able to be diverted to drive the soil on and give further benefits

Excellent post.
When posters are after doing exactly as you posted, the thread could be opened in 7-8 yrs time when they may need to tweak a little....

[ðŸ˜‚ you didn’t answer my question!!]

endainoz · 19-11-2020 10:15am

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Excellent post.
When posters are after doing exactly as you posted, the thread could be opened in 7-8 yrs time when they may need to tweak a little....

[ðŸ˜‚ you didn’t answer my question!!]

So happy we've all been shown the way now! It really did take yourself to set us straight. This thread was made for people who attended biofarm and to exchange ideas based on experience. While you have shared some ideas, the tone, and the confrontational way you put your points across is not something I'd agree with.

I'll say it again, "us and them mentality".

Oh to answer your question, I am organic and there won't be any chemicals going into my ground ever again. I'm eager to try new things, not to knock and dismiss them.

19-11-2020 11:28am

endainoz wrote: »

So happy we've all been shown the way now! It really did take yourself to set us straight. This thread was made for people who attended biofarm and to exchange ideas based on experience. While you have shared some ideas, the tone, and the confrontational way you put your points across is not something I'd agree with.

I'll say it again, "us and them mentality".

Oh to answer your question, I am organic and there won't be any chemicals going into my ground ever again. I'm eager to try new things, not to knock and dismiss them.

I blame this particular medium of conversation to be honest.

At Biofarm 2019, in person, there were no judgements on anyone whether they ploughed, sprayed, were organic, were clueless, etc. It was an extremely welcoming atmosphere and free exchange of ideas.

yosemitesam1 · 19-11-2020 11:34am

endainoz wrote: »

So happy we've all been shown the way now! It really did take yourself to set us straight. This thread was made for people who attended biofarm and to exchange ideas based on experience. While you have shared some ideas, the tone, and the confrontational way you put your points across is not something I'd agree with.

I'll say it again, "us and them mentality".

I don't think it's an us and them mentality. It's more of a slightly cynical"there's nothing new under the sun", that the core principles of sustainable farming have been around for thousands of years and that the most important thing anyone can do is start with the basics before (which will give the vast majority of the benefits).

Worrying about a small amount of glyphosate, should I be going with a 30 species mix instead of only 20 species, should I be applying special composts etc before the basics have been implemented for 5-10 years will only slow progress.

NcdJd · 19-11-2020 11:53am

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

I don't think it's an us and them mentality. It's more of a slightly cynical"there's nothing new under the sun", that the core principles of sustainable farming have been around for thousands of years and that the most important thing anyone can do is start with the basics before (which will give the vast majority of the benefits).

Worrying about a small amount of glyphosate, should I be going with a 30 species mix instead of only 20 species, should I be applying special composts etc before the basics have been implemented for 5-10 years will only slow progress.

I find this thread very interesting and value the input both yourself and dawg add to it. I thought that link that dawg posted re artificial nitrogen use was an eye opener to me. There are crops and clay types that the likes of min till doesn't suit and crops that have been harvested that will leave the ground bare. But knocking farmers that have to use a plough in their farming system due to the clay type or crop being grown I think is wrong.

endainoz · 19-11-2020 12:01pm

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

I don't think it's an us and them mentality. It's more of a slightly cynical"there's nothing new under the sun", that the core principles of sustainable farming have been around for thousands of years and that the most important thing anyone can do is start with the basics before (which will give the vast majority of the benefits).

Worrying about a small amount of glyphosate, should I be going with a 30 species mix instead of only 20 species, should I be applying special composts etc before the basics have been implemented for 5-10 years will only slow progress.

Nobody is disagreeing with getting the basics right, but it's no harm to have a decent discussion about it. We all have our own methods of doing things. Different land go with different species or grass for example, there is not a one seed mix fits all soils type of solution.

I have no interest in arguing with anybody or to promote any negativity or hostility, it doesn't help people in the long run.

My own situation is probably quite different from others, I'd like to extend the grazing season to save on straw usage and cut down inputs, different grasses species emerge at early or later times of the year as would be the same with herb mixes. I currently have some animals out in a dry field where I took a bit of silage late in the summer, had I not made silage I reckon they would manage there until Christmas, which will be the goal for next year.

I'm always happy to learn more from people here, I hope it continues, and I'll always admit when I don't have a clue; ie anything to do with tillage.

Say my name · 19-11-2020 12:31pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I blame this particular medium of conversation to be honest.

At Biofarm 2019, in person, there were no judgements on anyone whether they ploughed, sprayed, were organic, were clueless, etc. It was an extremely welcoming atmosphere and free exchange of ideas.

Ah now there was a little bit of an anti teagasc and anti dairy feeling last year.
I wouldn't agree whole heartly with teagasc but the dairy farmer in me felt a bit wrankled.
It came a little from questions from the audience and was relayed back from one or two speakers.

If we don't get challenged ourselves however and think we're perfect then nothing is ever achieved.

As a forum here though none of us should think we're better than the next poster. We're all in this together finding our way.
The scrap book has been torn up many times and will continue to be torn up.

Water John · 19-11-2020 5:43pm

We had speakers from Ireland and various places around the world. They were some common themes that could be drawn from them. I tried to summarise these in a few key points, that we can all agree on:
Soil biology benefits most from a diverse mix of plants 16 species or more.
Soil biology benefits most from grazing ruminants.
In a forage situation these plants should come from 4 areas, grasses, legumes, short herbs and long herbs.
The microbiome is much larger than simply the root system.
Intercropping whether it’s forage between trees, plants between fruit trees, or inter row species in horticulture, has both disease and biological benefits.
Maximising soil biology with ruminants creates the opportunity to sequester carbon.
This carbon sequestration can be up to 1 metre in depth.

Waffletraktor · 19-11-2020 9:44pm

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

It’s easier ask a few questions than explain...
This thread ISN’T about organic, or is it?
Are you organic?

What regen ag are you practicing, and for how long?

Most certainly with the intention of upsetting some people, your dealing with folks with little hands on experience and institutional knowledge of growing crops. As in the thinking on being so desperate to put beans in this year in early october on saturated beyond field capacity heavy clay. If you know you know kind of thing.
Light ground isn't an issue for us, it's the clay that keeps us awake at night. A neighbour that thought us alot of the practicalities of playing with no-til(you must drill into warm soils) and biologicals has been that solider since the 70's. Crunched the numbers on live stock in hand and the boss's response is we can let someone else have that hardship for a fee. Unless you chase the end product up the food chain targeting the niche which is a saturated market around here he can make more converting the old stock sheds into house's or business let's. Simply owning stuff that was once used but now defunct certainly makes much more money than the farm ever could.
One of our causuals/fulltimers from Nz(made a happy supprise with a local girl), has a background in stock farming in tough Mckenzie country on the S island. His brother runs mobs of lambs and dairy heifers on crop farms run at a ridiculous intensity on the lovelly land in the Plains around Ashburton, 'Canty'.
Most the super hero DD's in the Uk are so, because a few years ago Govt brought out a 60% grant for direct drills and they couldn't afford to stay on the challenger/Rapide merry go round. Hence the sudden rush for really expensive horsch
Must be 4? years ago when 1st on the trail of Gabe Brown, i guess it's shiny new toy time for others.

Say my name · 19-11-2020 10:22pm

Interesting that Hamish Bielski was wound up by Christine Jones 4 years ago.

Does anyone else have the full presentation from Hamish?
It seems to be only just the first 3 minutes.

Water John · 19-11-2020 11:13pm

Yes, checked that out and it stopped at the time he was going formally into his presentation. Haven't looked at the others. The only presentation I missed originally was Joel Williams, also most of the initial introduction
I will go through them all over time, one or two a week. May have missed some points. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

20-11-2020 12:18am

Say my name wrote: »

Ah now there was a little bit of an anti teagasc and anti dairy feeling last year.
I wouldn't agree whole heartly with teagasc but the dairy farmer in me felt a bit wrankled.
It came a little from questions from the audience and was relayed back from one or two speakers.

If we don't get challenged ourselves however and think we're perfect then nothing is ever achieved.

As a forum here though none of us should think we're better than the next poster. We're all in this together finding our way.
The scrap book has been torn up many times and will continue to be torn up.

I can't remember that tbh, wasn't it Will Armitage, one of the speakers, who was a dairy farmer himself or have I got that wrong?

As for Teagasc, open season, rightly so.

Say my name · 20-11-2020 12:38am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I can't remember that tbh, wasn't it Will Armitage, one of the speakers, who was a dairy farmer himself or have I got that wrong?

As for Teagasc, open season, rightly so.

He was and organic. But it is there amongst some who claim total ownership of the regen tag.
The trouble with regen is there's no hard rules laid down like organic. Everyone has their own interpretation and how far to push that interpretation.
It's like Christine Jones would be against that g word but Nicole Masters would be lukewarm to it.
Now there might be some playing to the audience for a repeat performance.
There's farmers who call themselves regenerative who I wouldn't call regenerative and there's farmers who wouldn't call themselves regenerative but I'd call them regenerative. Ones interpretation of soil health is different from another usually just to suit themselves. But I think they/we'd all like the freedom of no rules.
Although I have seen a basic put together of something on some fb groups.

Water John · 20-11-2020 12:50am

It's I suppose simply about whatever the science says increases the biology in the soil and lessens any negative environmental impact. That allows for individual interpetration or emphasis to some degree.

Say my name · 20-11-2020 12:55am

I think it's as simple as the name.

It's the ability of the farm to regenerate year after year after year without pulling resources from elsewhere.
And to continue to be able to generate food for time immorable.

Water John · 20-11-2020 1:03am

Maybe if I was being blunter, real sustainability as opposed to pretend sustainability. But that's not a bun fight I feel not worth getting into ATM.

20-11-2020 1:15am

Say my name wrote: »

He was and organic. But it is there amongst some who claim total ownership of the regen tag.
The trouble with regen is there's no hard rules laid down like organic. Everyone has their own interpretation and how far to push that interpretation.
It's like Christine Jones would be against that g word but Nicole Masters would be lukewarm to it.
Now there might be some playing to the audience for a repeat performance.
There's farmers who call themselves regenerative who I wouldn't call regenerative and there's farmers who wouldn't call themselves regenerative but I'd call them regenerative. Ones interpretation of soil health is different from another usually just to suit themselves. But I think they/we'd all like the freedom of no rules.
Although I have seen a basic put together of something on some fb groups.

A quote from someone I read the last day "You do you".

In Savorys book, he's pretty much against fire, but I use it sparingly as a tool to begin better management. In the same book he's against herbicides, but says in several places use at your own risk once you understand the long term consequences.

So, I take bits I like from all these people, because there's no one true religion that's a glove fit for my farm.

Context, it's all about the context. I see people wanting Govt involved, IMO that idea is dumb as dirt, Govt never met a good idea they couldn't break. The beauty of all this creative mess under the Regen umbrella is that you may pick and chose and you have the freedom to make your own decisions.

Coset it up in rules and regulations and y may as well kill it IMO because it won't be any different from any other "scheme".

As for shouty/claimy people, ignore them.

Gawddawggonnit · 20-11-2020 8:58am

Waffletraktor wrote: »

Most certainly with the intention of upsetting some people, your dealing with folks with little hands on experience and institutional knowledge of growing crops. As in the thinking on being so desperate to put beans in this year in early october on saturated beyond field capacity heavy clay. If you know you know kind of thing.
Light ground isn't an issue for us, it's the clay that keeps us awake at night. A neighbour that thought us alot of the practicalities of playing with no-til(you must drill into warm soils) and biologicals has been that solider since the 70's. Crunched the numbers on live stock in hand and the boss's response is we can let someone else have that hardship for a fee. Unless you chase the end product up the food chain targeting the niche which is a saturated market around here he can make more converting the old stock sheds into house's or business let's. Simply owning stuff that was once used but now defunct certainly makes much more money than the farm ever could.
One of our causuals/fulltimers from Nz(made a happy supprise with a local girl), has a background in stock farming in tough Mckenzie country on the S island. His brother runs mobs of lambs and dairy heifers on crop farms run at a ridiculous intensity on the lovelly land in the Plains around Ashburton, 'Canty'.
Most the super hero DD's in the Uk are so, because a few years ago Govt brought out a 60% grant for direct drills and they couldn't afford to stay on the challenger/Rapide merry go round. Hence the sudden rush for really expensive horsch
Must be 4? years ago when 1st on the trail of Gabe Brown, i guess it's shiny new toy time for others.

Lol.
The road to perdition is paved with good intentions.

Last year, being the wettest autumn/winter in 50yrs, we pulled out the ploughs. I’m actually sorry now...but the business must return a profit so I’m as quick as anyone to reach for the tool that’ll work. Likewise the hardcore regen crew frown at us having to do shallow tillage in irrigated ground but we don’t have a choice because a few passes of 30-40mm of water in 35-40*C heat causes a crust on top of the ground...
I know a couple of lads that are organic with 20yrs. They’ve a block of nearly 200ha of the foulest of clay ranging from yellow to red to blue (if you know you know) and they can only manage it by applying mahoosive quantities of organic matter in the form of timber waste. It helps when you have your own recycling business...

Gawddawggonnit · 20-11-2020 9:01am

Water John wrote: »

Maybe if I was being blunter, real sustainability as opposed to pretend sustainability. But that's not a bun fight I feel not worth getting into ATM.

What is your yardstick for differentiating between real and pretend sustainability?

Castlekeeper · 20-11-2020 10:06am

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Lol.
The road to perdition is paved with good intentions.

Last year, being the wettest autumn/winter in 50yrs, we pulled out the ploughs. I’m actually sorry now...but the business must return a profit so I’m as quick as anyone to reach for the tool that’ll work. Likewise the hardcore regen crew frown at us having to do shallow tillage in irrigated ground but we don’t have a choice because a few passes of 30-40mm of water in 35-40*C heat causes a crust on top of the ground...
I know a couple of lads that are organic with 20yrs. They’ve a block of nearly 200ha of the foulest of clay ranging from yellow to red to blue (if you know you know) and they can only manage it by applying mahoosive quantities of organic matter in the form of timber waste. It helps when you have your own recycling business...

It can hardly called profit if it's diminishing an asset / the balance sheet, that's more liquidising to generate cash.
Not saying that I haven't made similar poor decisions eg cutting silage in poor ground conditions, milking cows at the expense of BCS in late winter, but I would certainly look at things a different way now, especially with regard to the soil, and try and keep cash flow in a position to avoid pressure points and impulses.
Time will tell whether I'm wasting my time or not, but sure I'm happy!

Markcheese · 20-11-2020 4:14pm

Isn't that the thing , what works in one place, ,won't always work elsewhere , add in changing weather conditions too..
All you can do is think about how why and when you do stuff , and then do the best you can -at the time ..

Look at history , the scratch plough was a big deal in dry areas. The mould board was revolutionary in it's day for northern europe . . moving up to min till ,
Doesn't mean a plough is bad per say .

Gawddawggonnit · 21-11-2020 8:44am

Castlekeeper wrote: »

It can hardly called profit if it's diminishing an asset / the balance sheet, that's more liquidising to generate cash.
Not saying that I haven't made similar poor decisions eg cutting silage in poor ground conditions, milking cows at the expense of BCS in late winter, but I would certainly look at things a different way now, especially with regard to the soil, and try and keep cash flow in a position to avoid pressure points and impulses.
Time will tell whether I'm wasting my time or not, but sure I'm happy!

It’s not that easy Mark.
Firstly it would be financial suicide for me to have passed up on planting winter cereals and planting wall to wall maize. What farmer grows only one crop?
Secondly the government wouldn’t drop the 3 crop rule for just one year.
Thirdly there are times when you just have to sweat the land...

Waffletraktor · 21-11-2020 9:32am

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

It’s not that easy Mark.
Firstly it would be financial suicide for me to have passed up on planting winter cereals and planting wall to wall maize. What farmer grows only one crop?
Secondly the government wouldn’t drop the 3 crop rule for just one year.
Thirdly there are times when you just have to sweat the land...

So your saying the real world experience differs to hopes and dreams? Wheat for milling is £190/t+ where as barley is sub 100 atm. Due to weather in august the early stuff bushelled good enough to have a 4m3 bucket fill a lorry in 10 full buckets vs 13 to get the same weight after the rain chitted it all in the ear and left half a ton on the ground.

Castlekeeper · 21-11-2020 11:22am

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

It’s not that easy Mark.
Firstly it would be financial suicide for me to have passed up on planting winter cereals and planting wall to wall maize. What farmer grows only one crop?
Secondly the government wouldn’t drop the 3 crop rule for just one year.
Thirdly there are times when you just have to sweat the land...

You wrote that you were "sorry now" with the decision you made to plough, hence my take on your story.
It's never black and white but all I'm saying is that I now try and put myself in a position where I'm not doing medium to long term damage for marginal short term gains, especially at the expense of soil health, as I'm much moreally aware than previously.

Castlekeeper · 21-11-2020 11:33am

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

It’s not that easy Mark.
Firstly it would be financial suicide for me to have passed up on planting winter cereals and planting wall to wall maize. What farmer grows only one crop?
Secondly the government wouldn’t drop the 3 crop rule for just one year.
Thirdly there are times when you just have to sweat the land...

I doubt it would have been financial suicide, maybe a short term cash loss? There are many who would say that even an extra term under a cover crop would be more beneficial than a poor cash crop. You know yourself though.

Water John · 25-11-2020 5:36pm

Here is an interesting article on Greg Judy and his Polled South cattle. These he has bred suitable for his climate. We have a number of breeds that fulfil that grass only diet.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/nov/25/south-poll-cow-naturally-raised-cattle-grass

Biofarm 2020

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