Biofarm 2020

Dinzee Conlee

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm pretty sure Johan Zietsmann advocates eating everything, or near as. But, it's the rest period afterwards and not coming back until the pasture is ready that's key to success in most scenarios.

He’s a goggle for me now Herd...

Water John

Thanks lads, I'm more comfortable grazing 90%. Cattle seem fine with it. A good cleanout depends on dry weather too.
Dinzee, it seems sheep need retraining to eat higher.

Dinzee Conlee

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

He’s a goggle for me now Herd...

Buy his book, "Man, Cattle, and Veld". I'm not saying to take anything as Gospel but, there's a lot of useful information there.

Castlekeeper

Mob grazing is great in theory, but you need a very low stocking rate, it's not easy keep a 30-60 day rotation going and there is only ever about 1500kgDM/ ha (Edit- quality) grazeable forage available at max regardless of how high the covers are. It does work in it's own way though, and would suit a low profit enterprise where stocking rate is not highly correlated to profit.

Water John

Wouldn't fully agree there. The amount of forage at 35/40 days is very high and so the amount allocated each day tends to be quite small. Last year I tended to give them 4/5 day blocks. Obviously one is working at organic stocking rates but not low. Will hopefully stick with one day allocations this year.
It's quite different to standard 21 day rotation. Animals are eating seeds and various plants. Grass isn't their first choice.

Castlekeeper

Water John wrote: »

Wouldn't fully agree there. The amount of forage at 35/40 days is very high and so the amount allocated each day tends to be quite small. Last year I tended to give them 4/5 day blocks. Obviously one is working at organic stocking rates but not low. Will hopefully stick with one day allocations this year.
It's quite different to standard 21 day rotation. Animals are eating seeds and various plants. Grass isn't their first choice.

So your grazing high covers, taking 90%, which is grazing ever thing to the floor, achieving good livestock performance (I assume?)and coming back again to the same cover in 5-6 weeks, in an organic system, that's some going. You should measure your yields and growth.
That seems akin to high N Italian ryegrass multicut silage performance.
PS
I'm quite familiar with strip grazing high covers of both improve and semi improved grassland over the years.

Water John

Not sure what your edge is here Castle? I'm just taking sunlight and converting it into beef. It's a variation on organic farming. Never claimed remarkable performance, it's just one system for discussion.
My question related to leaving some grazing behind as in a true regenerative mob grazing (RMG)system. The theory being, by leaving green material behind the growth rate will continue and not be stunted for 10 days by lack of photosynthesis. Thus RMG should produce more forage than what I'm doing.

Castlekeeper

Water John wrote: »

Not sure what your edge is here Castle? I'm just taking sunlight and converting it into beef. It's a variation on organic farming. Never claimed remarkable performance, it's just one system for discussion.
My question related to leaving some grazing behind as in a true regenerative mob grazing (RMG)system. The theory being, by leaving green material behind the growth rate will continue and not be stunted for 10 days by lack of photosynthesis. Thus RMG should produce more forage than what I'm doing.

Edge???
I gave a quantified opinion based on past experience and measurements. You partially disagreed and provided a different, seemingly very impressive, experience which I was just trying to analyse to learn from. Deleted
Leaving a higher residual will lead to improved animal performance and faster regrowth, in my experience, but a possible decline on subsequent sward digestibility.

endainoz

I had noticed areas that were grazed a bit heavier this year that the clovers are forming well now that they have a bit of sunshine getting into them. Obviously people tight with grass wouldn't be able to do this but if the grass gets grazed down to it's "shocked" phase, it should give the clover a good head start.

Castlekeeper

Just looking back here. I think wires may have become crossed and I apologise for being blunt. My limited communication skills might be suffering these times!
Anyway back to mob grazing, I think there's a lot of aspirational guff posted by the holistic purveyors but if we share our experiences we might learn
I've done it a few times with dairy cows, which give a daily performance indicator of pasture quality through milk yield plus fat and protein constituents.
One obstacle I see is having enough land available in the spring to build the covers necessary to create a long rotation. Establishing swards diverse enough to maintain quality and growth rates through the summer is another.
With regard to the proportion to leave. Given standard grass measuring data, a cover of 4cm =1500kgDM ha, that's the difference allowed between using the Teagasc system and the NZ total covers one. This means that grazing a lush 1500 cover down to 0 tab residual is actually leaving half. Now you take a heavy cover of 2100 Teagasc(= 3600 total). Grazing half of that is leaving a Teagasc residual of 300, which is still reasonably well eaten I think taking a third, leaving a third and trampling the a third only applies to heavier covers of say 3000 Teagasc (4500 total) This would still end up only taking 1500 off the sward and leaving 1500 - Teagasc, (3000 total) a thick mat of steamy uneaten pasture for trampling. So while soil may be getting fed, one is still only getting amount of grazeable forage per grazing, hence my need for a very low stocking rate to make it work.
Grazing lower than this will really hit re growths

Dinzee Conlee

Castlekeeper wrote: »

Just looking back here. I think wires may have become crossed and I apologise for being blunt. My limited communication skills might be suffering these times!
Anyway back to mob grazing, I think there's a lot of aspirational guff posted by the holistic purveyors but if we share our experiences we might learn
I've done it a few times with dairy cows, which give a daily performance indicator of pasture quality through milk yield plus fat and protein constituents.
One obstacle I see is having enough land available in the spring to build the covers necessary to create a long rotation. Establishing swards diverse enough to maintain quality and growth rates through the summer is another.
With regard to the proportion to leave. Given standard grass measuring data, a cover of 4cm =1500kgDM ha, that's the difference allowed between using the Teagasc system and the NZ total covers one. This means that grazing a lush 1500 cover down to 0 tab residual is actually leaving half. Now you take a heavy cover of 2100 Teagasc(= 3600 total). Grazing half of that is leaving a Teagasc residual of 300, which is still reasonably well eaten I think taking a third, leaving a third and trampling the a third only applies to heavier covers of say 3000 Teagasc (4500 total) This would still end up only taking 1500 off the sward and leaving 1500 - Teagasc, (3000 total) a thick mat of steamy uneaten pasture for trampling. So while soil may be getting fed, one is still only getting amount of grazeable forage per grazing, hence my need for a very low stocking rate to make it work.
Grazing lower than this will really hit re growths

So an issue I have and you have kinda referred to it above - is letting covers build in springtime...

I usually sell a few hoggets in spring, so March & April grass is worth a lot to me...

Leaving it til maybe late April til there is high covers built up, to allow sufficient trampling and high residue left - well, it means supplementing with some other feed to get my lambs fat...

I am only just starting to look at this mob grazing kinda craic, so maybe the answer is as simple as change my system, maybe sell lambs earlier and/or reduce stocking rate maybe...

But, comments welcome on that initial wait in spring, as am sure it’s an issue for more than me?

minerleague

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

So an issue I have and you have kinda referred to it above - is letting covers build in springtime...

I usually sell a few hoggets in spring, so March & April grass is worth a lot to me...

Leaving it til maybe late April til there is high covers built up, to allow sufficient trampling and high residue left - well, it means supplementing with some other feed to get my lambs fat...

I am only just starting to look at this mob grazing kinda craic, so maybe the answer is as simple as change my system, maybe sell lambs earlier and/or reduce stocking rate maybe...

But, comments welcome on that initial wait in spring, as am sure it’s an issue for more than me?

From what I see on US YouTube channels that practice mob grazing the cattle eat the best off high covers, keeping up production, and leaving/ trampling the rest flat to feed soil health and create a flat surface for new growth. I think you would have to leave some heavy covers over winter for spring grazing. This doesn't seem to affect some proponents of this system in US as they try to have cattle out all year ( selling weanlings off farm as growth slows )

Water John

Castle, we're fine. I don't think RMG can really be compared with full on Teagasc type farming. RMG is further along the road than organic itself.
I agree Castle, I don't take the Alan Savory, hook, line and sinker. He has some key ideas that one can apply. I simply look at the margin across the farm. Considering some of the beef systems are losing money, I think I'm doing ok.

Certainly with the grass/red clover silage, the cattle came out of the winter very well. Others might use a crimp or combi crop to achieve similar. Don't have the red clover this year but will def reset it next year. Will reduce my oats area next year. Learning all the time.

Miner, I'd say if we want clovers as a key part of the grazing, the heavy over winter covers aren't an option, in our climate.

yosemitesam1

Water John wrote: »

Castle, we're fine. I don't think RMG can really be compared with full on Teagasc type farming. RMG is further along the road than organic itself.
I agree Castle, I don't take the Alan Savory, hook, line and sinker. He has some key ideas that one can apply. I simply look at the margin across the farm. Considering some of the beef systems are losing money, I think I'm doing ok.

Certainly with the grass/red clover silage, the cattle came out of the winter very well. Others might use a crimp or combi crop to achieve similar. Don't have the red clover this year but will def reset it next year. Will reduce my oats area next year. Learning all the time.

Miner, I'd say if we want clovers as a key part of the grazing, the heavy over winter covers aren't an option, in our climate.

It's important not to take a system designed for warm season grasses and apply it direct here. Warm season grasses are much more similar to maize in growth habit than our grasses.
A small bit longer of a rotation to get the most out of the likes of cocksfoot and forbs would be beneficial but unless the goal is to set seed, the very long rotations have no place around here

yosemitesam1

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

So an issue I have and you have kinda referred to it above - is letting covers build in springtime...

I usually sell a few hoggets in spring, so March & April grass is worth a lot to me...

Leaving it til maybe late April til there is high covers built up, to allow sufficient trampling and high residue left - well, it means supplementing with some other feed to get my lambs fat...

I am only just starting to look at this mob grazing kinda craic, so maybe the answer is as simple as change my system, maybe sell lambs earlier and/or reduce stocking rate maybe...

But, comments welcome on that initial wait in spring, as am sure it’s an issue for more than me?

You wouldn't wait to leave covers build in spring. They would increase over a couple of rounds of grazing with the season and then things would fall with the season in the backend unless you made the decision to carry much higher covers for winter grazing.

Water John

Some stock sold out of shed, so numbers lower in the spring. Then leave rest of the cattle out a bit later and graze the silage ground first. Only about 10 days into the grass grazing round now. Hopefully the warming later this week will push on growth. It means keeping cattle a little longer in the shed, but that's just some extra bales.
Everyone's recipie will be diff and mine will be too next year.

Dinzee Conlee

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

You wouldn't wait to leave covers build in spring. They would increase over a couple of rounds of grazing with the season and then things would fall with the season in the backend unless you made the decision to carry much higher covers for winter grazing.

And this is what I am planning to do (whenever the grass starts growing)

Apparently some experts say you wont get the full productivity this way, as you'll be grazing the plant too hard in the springtime...
I don't know enough if that true or not - or if it true (which it could well be), but overall grass productivity gain doesnt suit me, as earlier grass is worth more to me than an overall higher amount of grass throughout the year...

yosemitesam1

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

And this is what I am planning to do (whenever the grass starts growing)

Apparently some experts say you wont get the full productivity this way, as you'll be grazing the plant too hard in the springtime...
I don't know enough if that true or not - or if it true (which it could well be), but overall grass productivity gain doesnt suit me, as earlier grass is worth more to me than an overall higher amount of grass throughout the year...

It sounds like those experts are wrong or talking about a very different climate/sward composition.
Carrying high covers through the winter and spring will negatively impact tillering and favour the likes of bent grasses which no-one wants if productivity is a goal

minerleague

Water John wrote: »

Castle, we're fine. I don't think RMG can really be compared with full on Teagasc type farming. RMG is further along the road than organic itself.
I agree Castle, I don't take the Alan Savory, hook, line and sinker. He has some key ideas that one can apply. I simply look at the margin across the farm. Considering some of the beef systems are losing money, I think I'm doing ok.

Certainly with the grass/red clover silage, the cattle came out of the winter very well. Others might use a crimp or combi crop to achieve similar. Don't have the red clover this year but will def reset it next year. Will reduce my oats area next year. Learning all the time.

Miner, I'd say if we want clovers as a key part of the grazing, the heavy over winter covers aren't an option, in our climate.

Outwintered cows last two winters on grass stopped since late august , very happy ( cows fit not fat, calving went very well both years, even subsequent breeding last year went excellent ) If I have to broadcast some clover / grass seed its an acceptable price to pay for me.