Biofarm 2020

18-11-2020 1:27am

Just by the by, people can still pay for a ticket and get access to the recordings, so for anyone holding regrets, the opportunity is still there to see what went on.

alps · 18-11-2020 1:56am

Deleted User wrote: »

Just by the by, people can still pay for a ticket and get access to the recordings, so for anyone holding regrets, the opportunity is still there to see what went on.

Book in as a "family member" of someone here and looks like there is a discount..

Markcheese · 18-11-2020 8:15am

alps wrote: »

How can you get from an existing rye grass sward to a multi species one if you were not to use glyphosate and dont want to (or couldn't deal with) ploughing?

I'm gonna guess do the opposite to a normal grazing routine , so low nitrogen... Tight silage cut ,followed by a couple of tight grazings before the sward has fully recovered , scratch up the surface a bit and either an autumn or spring sowing , a light roll ,
And then keep it lightly grazed ( calves or younger stock ?)
I suppose It's gonna depend a lot on the weather and soil conditions really ..

Try give the sward the conditions for what you want to thrive ...

Gawddawggonnit · 18-11-2020 8:56am

alps wrote: »

How can you get from an existing rye grass sward to a multi species one if you were not to use glyphosate and dont want to (or couldn't deal with) ploughing?

What’s the problem with using glyphosate?

Easy for the bandwagoners to knock it...but using it once a decade to clean ground is hardly going to cause a global catastrophe. If you notice the regen brigade from warm countries are always railing against it, but it is easy to do without it in those climates.

Say my name · 18-11-2020 9:10am

Water John wrote: »

SNM look at the pic in this;
https://www.weeklytimesnow.com.au/machine/soilkee-pasture-renovator-a-saviour-for-tired-soils/news-story/66ec231af65de949c189fd17af12ff39

Similar to rotovator blades, spaced out.
Considering an air seeder is between €3/6.5k. It doesn't have covering tines or a press roller.
Do you think the mulcher at the front would provide feed for the new seeds?

Do I think the mulcher would provide feed for the seeds?

In conventional that'd be seen as a negative and increased nitrogen fertilizer and lime would be required to break it down.
In regen they'd spray on humic acid and probably a little molasses and worm juice to break it down.
Take what you will.

A fully buzzing soil with diverse microbes would consume it faster easier than not.

gozunda · 18-11-2020 10:09am

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

Did someone here say that sainfoin doesn’t do well in Ireland?

I think this one of the problem with some imported grassland mixtures. Sainfoin is not a native wildflower here. Its also a perennial so may take some time to establish as well. I'd prefer to see mixtures sourced from native Irish varieties as not only are they fully acclimatised and grow better in our conditions- they are often better suited for our insects wild bees etc.

endainoz · 18-11-2020 10:30am

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

What’s the problem with using glyphosate?

Easy for the bandwagoners to knock it...but using it once a decade to clean ground is hardly going to cause a global catastrophe. If you notice the regen brigade from warm countries are always railing against it, but it is easy to do without it in those climates.

Apart from the obvious? It's not allowed in organics for one. It kind of goes against the whole issue of insects being wiped out. We keep finding it in all our foods, and drinking water, it's being detected in breast milk. I kills everything in the ground and people maintain that's a good thing.

You like to use terms like "bandwagoners" or "brigade". It very much gives an "us and them" type mentality, almost goading to be honest.

endainoz · 18-11-2020 10:36am

Markcheese wrote: »

I'm gonna guess do the opposite to a normal grazing routine , so low nitrogen... Tight silage cut ,followed by a couple of tight grazings before the sward has fully recovered , scratch up the surface a bit and either an autumn or spring sowing , a light roll ,
And then keep it lightly grazed ( calves or younger stock ?)
I suppose It's gonna depend a lot on the weather and soil conditions really ..

Try give the sward the conditions for what you want to thrive ...

I would be looking into something similar, but in spring. I had seen the seeds for an organic mix from fruit hill farm. A lot of the herbs only need to be less than 0.5cm in the ground. A roll after broadcasting should achieve that.

I had actually spoken to Clive Bright about it and while he said he has had a good bit of success with it, timing is absolutely key for it to work. Soil temp hast to be 7 degrees or higher. Ground has to have a reasonable amount of moisture, (but not too much). Ground will need a tight graze or mowing 5 days after seeding to give new seedlings a chance.

It may be a lot of work but it's definitely achievable I think.

Markcheese · 18-11-2020 11:02am

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

What’s the problem with using glyphosate?

Easy for the bandwagoners to knock it...but using it once a decade to clean ground is hardly going to cause a global catastrophe. If you notice the regen brigade from warm countries are always railing against it, but it is easy to do without it in those climates.

Once in a decade , maybe .. but do you know anyone that uses it once a decade ?
It's cheap and ubiquitous , and gets used as such ,
It's not the worst spray in the world in itself , but it's so cheap and "accepted " that's it's often the first resort ..
Spray off that lay , then plow , maybe a pre- emergance spray ? Or if it's a gm crop just spray on through the growing season , if it's not gm , a pre-harvest desicant..,post harvest ? don't forget the hedges and fence lines ..
It's indicated in more poisoning events than any other farm chemical , not because it's particularly dangerous , (or at least instantly dangerous )
, but because familiarity breeds contempt..

Also a bit hypocritical to say don't use x ,it's bad for the soil .. and them go down the co-op for a 5 litre of x...

alps · 18-11-2020 11:38am

Markcheese wrote: »

Once in a decade , maybe .. but do you know anyone that uses it once a decade ?

That would be the majority of grassland farmers. Our rested cycle is just over 20 years. We have a couple of paddocks that are over 40 years old, and in our current input and grazing regime are just as productive as new reseeds.

If we headed down the path of multi species awards, unless they have a persistency issue, I certainly cant see glyphosate being any more than once in a decade or even once in 20 years product.

Say my name · 18-11-2020 1:50pm

Water John wrote: »

SNM look at the pic in this;
https://www.weeklytimesnow.com.au/machine/soilkee-pasture-renovator-a-saviour-for-tired-soils/news-story/66ec231af65de949c189fd17af12ff39

Similar to rotovator blades, spaced out.
Considering an air seeder is between €3/6.5k. It doesn't have covering tines or a press roller.
Do you think the mulcher at the front would provide feed for the new seeds?

This is the type of power harrow you want. Ha!

https://arti.com/four-winds-farm-grows-hemp-with-biochar-compost-mixture/

* the rest of the article is a bonus.

Gawddawggonnit · 18-11-2020 1:57pm

endainoz wrote: »

Apart from the obvious? It's not allowed in organics for one. It kind of goes against the whole issue of insects being wiped out. We keep finding it in all our foods, and drinking water, it's being detected in breast milk. I kills everything in the ground and people maintain that's a good thing.

You like to use terms like "bandwagoners" or "brigade". It very much gives an "us and them" type mentality, almost goading to be honest.

It’s easier ask a few questions than explain...
This thread ISN’T about organic, or is it?
Are you organic?

What regen ag are you practicing, and for how long?

Gawddawggonnit · 18-11-2020 2:03pm

Markcheese wrote: »

Once in a decade , maybe .. but do you know anyone that uses it once a decade ?
It's cheap and ubiquitous , and gets used as such ,
It's not the worst spray in the world in itself , but it's so cheap and "accepted " that's it's often the first resort ..
Spray off that lay , then plow , maybe a pre- emergance spray ? Or if it's a gm crop just spray on through the growing season , if it's not gm , a pre-harvest desicant..,post harvest ? don't forget the hedges and fence lines ..
It's indicated in more poisoning events than any other farm chemical , not because it's particularly dangerous , (or at least instantly dangerous )
, but because familiarity breeds contempt..

Also a bit hypocritical to say don't use x ,it's bad for the soil .. and them go down the co-op for a 5 litre of x...

Glyphosate has been flavor of the month for quite a few years now. It had been pencilled to be banned here next year. However that’s been overturned due to ‘deep scientific’ research carried out by Government.
They have slapped a tax on it though so it now costs €11/ litre...at that money it does make you think twice about using it.

Gawddawggonnit · 18-11-2020 2:11pm

Water John wrote: »

Cotswolds from a brief look are the business.
Herbal Ley:
1.50 kg certified LAMPARD ORG hybrid ryegrass
1.50 kg certified HUSAR ORG cocksfoot
1.20 kg certified OAKPARK perennial ryegrass
0.60 kg certified WINNETOU timothy
0.50 kg certified LAURA ORG meadow fescue
0.50 kg certified KORA tall fescue
0.70 kg certified GLOBAL red clover
0.30 kg certified ABERHERALD white clover
0.20 kg certified ABERDAI white clover
0.20 kg certified LOMIAI alsike clover
0.20 kg certified LEO birdsfoot trefoil
0.30 kg certified LUZELLE lucerne
3.00 kg certified ORG sainfoin
0.50 kg commercial sweet clover
0.60 kg certified PUNA II chicory
0.20 kg certified ENDURANCE ribgrass
0.70 kg burnet
0.10 kg yarrow
0.20 kg sheeps parsley

That's 1.8kg herbs plus 3kg sainfoin.
Problem for me is, organic in Ireland allow a derogation, which you must apply for, a 70% organic mix. This mix 50% which may be what's allowed in the UK and I know you don't even have to apply for the derogation there.
Probably have to get them to formulate an Irish mix.

I’d drop the Lucerne, Sainfoin, Trefoil and Chicory unless planting into very dry drought prone soils...

Say my name · 18-11-2020 2:17pm

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

It’s easier ask a few questions than explain...
This thread ISN’T about organic, or is it?
Are you organic?

What regen ag are you practicing, and for how long?

He's organic as are other posters on this thread.
If you're following the forum they've mentioned it already.

Speakers at Biofarm mentioned the harm glypho does and this is the Biofarm thread.

And anyways you've mentioned yourself you're in transition to organic yourself.
Why the big defence of glypho?
Isn't there enough already to do that job?

alps · 18-11-2020 2:28pm

Say my name wrote: »

He's organic as are other posters on this thread.
If you're following the forum they've mentioned it already.

Speakers at Biofarm mentioned the harm glypho does and this is the Biofarm thread.

And anyways you've mentioned yourself you're in transition to organic yourself.
Why the big defence of glypho?
Isn't there enough already to do that job?

The damage seemed to refer to microbiome only. Is it just a reduction or a clear out? How fast can these repopulate?

How bad is a hit every 10 or 20 years?

Gawddawggonnit · 18-11-2020 2:33pm

Say my name wrote: »

He's organic as are many posters on this thread.
If you're following the forum they've mentioned it already.

Speakers at Biofarm mentioned the harm glypho does and this is the Biofarm thread.

And anyways you've mentioned yourself you're in transition to organic yourself.
Why the big defence of glypho?
Isn't there enough already to do that job?

I’m not organic, I’m conventional. It wouldn’t cast me a thought in turning organic only for the mahooosive investment in kit. With no successor I’m reluctant to make an investment like that at my age.

I buy Glyphosate by the drum (20L) now but when in Ireland I had to buy it by the palet. Different climate completely. The sun is as good as Glyphosate, simple as that. But in Ireland the climate is the opposite.
If Glyphosate wasn’t being used on cereals pre harvest (even on feed crops) and every ditch/drain/roadfront/electric fence etc there would be much less hassle with the chemical.

* The p1ss test has made a lot of media time here. You know the ‘my p1ss tested 0.0001ppm of glyphosate’ bullcrap. A bunch of farmers that use glyphosate regularly did the test recently...they had much higher traces of progesterone and chems from makeup than glyphosate. ( I’m assuming that they’re not on the pill and they don’t wear makeup...).

I practice regen for profit in a conventional farming system.

Say my name · 18-11-2020 2:36pm

alps wrote: »

The damage seemed to refer to microbiome only. Is it just a reduction or a clear out? How fast can these repopulate?

How bad is a hit every 10 or 20 years?

It's the antibiotic thing. It leaves antibiotic resistant bacteria. The rest are killed off.
And as Chris Trump gives the example of the lads in the pub with pints, the four year olds break in and run riot.

I don't particularly like to have taken this role but we can't be blindly saying we need glypho or we'll be doomed. We won't be doomed. We'll just adapt and change.
And as Christine Jones said find your way now to farm without it.

Gawddawggonnit · 18-11-2020 2:51pm

https://grist.org/article/2010-02-23-new-research-synthetic-nitrogen-destroys-soil-carbon-undermines/

Ten years old but still pertinent.
I’d consider N the singular most detrimental chemical to soil biology. The less I use the more vibrant the soil becomes. I’ve a very small N allowance and I didn’t even use it all this year as I’ve several tons in stock.

NcdJd · 18-11-2020 2:55pm

Say my name wrote: »

This is the type of power harrow you want. Ha!

https://arti.com/four-winds-farm-grows-hemp-with-biochar-compost-mixture/

* the rest of the article is a bonus.

Have ya got a rotovator Say my name ? From looking at that regenerator to me looks like an overpriced rotovator with an air seeder attached. 56 k is very steep. If you have a rotovator all you need to do is lower the skids and / or depth wheel, adjust the gears to the lowest rpm and away you go. You can get a decent second hand maschio C 100 inch for about 5k from the local dealer where I am. The back boards are built like tanks and are rigid. Blades are curved so less hp required from tractor. The Howard's can be adjusted as well same way, but you would have to find a way of making the back board not raise up due to the design of them, eg raised with a loose chain. Blades are L shaped obviously on them.

How is the seed covered with that contraption ? I don't see anything covering it when it comes out of the pipes.

Say my name · 18-11-2020 3:51pm

NcdJd wrote: »

Have ya got a rotovator Say my name ? .

A trailed disc harrow made when God was a boy.

NcdJd · 18-11-2020 4:08pm

Say my name wrote: »

A trailed disc harrow made when God was a boy.

OK, just looks like something that could be put together. Looks like it's just working in the top few inches of the soil.

yosemitesam1 · 18-11-2020 4:22pm

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

I’d drop the Lucerne, Sainfoin, Trefoil and Chicory unless planting into very dry drought prone soils...

Trefoil does well where pH wouldn't be up to scratch and persists ok if not grazed too hard.
Don't think that things should really be much more complicated over here than a mix of grasses, red/white/alsike clover and plantain

yosemitesam1 · 18-11-2020 4:42pm

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

I’m not organic, I’m conventional. It wouldn’t cast me a thought in turning organic only for the mahooosive investment in kit. With no successor I’m reluctant to make an investment like that at my age.

I buy Glyphosate by the drum (20L) now but when in Ireland I had to buy it by the palet. Different climate completely. The sun is as good as Glyphosate, simple as that. But in Ireland the climate is the opposite.
If Glyphosate wasn’t being used on cereals pre harvest (even on feed crops) and every ditch/drain/roadfront/electric fence etc there would be much less hassle with the chemical.

* The p1ss test has made a lot of media time here. You know the ‘my p1ss tested 0.0001ppm of glyphosate’ bullcrap. A bunch of farmers that use glyphosate regularly did the test recently...they had much higher traces of progesterone and chems from makeup than glyphosate. ( I’m assuming that they’re not on the pill and they don’t wear makeup...).

I practice regen for profit in a conventional farming system.

Was talking with an analytical chemist a few months ago. It came up about glyphosate and he was very sceptical about the minuscule amounts of glyphosate found in the environment. As when you get to such low concentrations it becomes near impossible to prove that something is not there, which erroneously leads to the conclusion by many that glyphosate is present in many of these samples.

Castlekeeper · 18-11-2020 4:46pm

Chicory grows well and is palatable in have damp conditions and has a great root. I think it helps outcompete docks too. No harm include it.
Sainfoin is a waste here, likes light alkaline soils, and lucerne is quite ambitious too, and afaik doesn't like red clover.
Try Hurrells seeds before Brexit hits, they've a very wide selection.
Fellow on biofarm chat claiming great successes using a Guttler, drill, but I know three lads with them who've failed...

Gawddawggonnit · 18-11-2020 6:23pm

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Trefoil does well where pH wouldn't be up to scratch and persists ok if not grazed too hard.
Don't think that things should really be much more complicated over here than a mix of grasses, red/white/alsike clover and plantain

Thoroughly agree.

But but but it’s not regen unless it’s well complicated!

Gawddawggonnit · 18-11-2020 6:30pm

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Was talking with an analytical chemist a few months ago. It came up about glyphosate and he was very sceptical about the minuscule amounts of glyphosate found in the environment. As when you get to such low concentrations it becomes near impossible to prove that something is not there, which erroneously leads to the conclusion by many that glyphosate is present in many of these samples.

Easy fallguy that every jumped up jihadi ecomentalist can find a platform to shout about, and be listened to.

Until there’s hard scientific proof to the contrary, I’ll continue to use it. When that evidence comes to the fore the powers that be will take it off the market.

Gawddawggonnit · 18-11-2020 6:32pm

https://grist.org/article/2010-02-23-new-research-synthetic-nitrogen-destroys-soil-carbon-undermines/

@yosemitesam, what’d think of this?

yosemitesam1 · 18-11-2020 7:01pm

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

https://grist.org/article/2010-02-23-new-research-synthetic-nitrogen-destroys-soil-carbon-undermines/

@yosemitesam, what’d think of this?

Think that soil science can be simplified down to the following to get the vast majority of soils working well with good carbon content as well as improving trace element balance and structure.
Maintain good pH
Keep moderate amounts of p and k ideally supplied through organic forms
Keep a reasonably diverse sward (or else a decent rotation with cover crops)
Minimize tillage/bare soil
Minimize n use to less than about 50kg/ha or so.
Probably is a role for composts etc but would view it more as something that could speed up the results from above or make up for shortcomings, rather than something of essential importance.

The science has been done that if you feed heavy with n and p that plants give back less to the soil and the whole thing starts to unravel. As the very basis of good soil structure and strong msoil microbial communities is reliant on plants wanting to interact more with the soil.

Diversity builds a more beneficial soil microbial community as it's a much less specialised job to have a mutually beneficial relationship than it is to circumvent the defences plants have against parasites and disease.
The savings from that switch are fairly large and can mean that there's even more energy able to be diverted to drive the soil on and give further benefits

Say my name · 18-11-2020 7:55pm

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Was talking with an analytical chemist a few months ago. It came up about glyphosate and he was very sceptical about the minuscule amounts of glyphosate found in the environment. As when you get to such low concentrations it becomes near impossible to prove that something is not there, which erroneously leads to the conclusion by many that glyphosate is present in many of these samples.

Next time you see them ask about this peer reveiwed study.

https://www.canterbury.ac.nz/news/2018/new-study-links-common-herbicides-and-antibiotic-resistance.html

And don't forget not per the study but common sense that there's antibiotic bacteria already present in the soil or we wouldn't have penecillin and soil is where we continue to find our antibiotics. Even now commercializing them.

Biofarm 2020

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