Biofarm 2020

Water John

Water John wrote: »

Yes, but there are economic interests with a lot of influence for which this message is not in their interest.
It seems there is much hesitancy at EU level too to go the carbon payment route.

Hopefully this thread will continue with anyone coming across any thing, posting it. Thanks Endainoz (OP) for starting it.

For sure re carbon payment. They can take it for free.

Say my name

Water John wrote: »

Yes, but there are economic interests with a lot of influence for which this message is not in their interest.

Hopefully this thread will continue with anyone coming across any thing, posting it. Thanks Endainoz (OP) for starting it.

I've been at the biochar this past year.

Brought the subject up once with two different teagasc researchers. One replied it was too costly to use on farm.
Another replied that as a feed for cows it doesn't work.

Thankfully the rest of the world moves on and doesn't listen to teagasc.

I know for a fact they were trying to allign themselves with a patented chemical to include in feed to reduce methane.
The same thing happened with protected urea when all urea needed was a carbon source included.
Big companies with pull, lobby teagasc and teagasc do the trials.
Unfortunately they're still on the chemical side. Bugger the consequences down the line and there always are consequences.

Markcheese

Well , there's a bit of logic in teagasc following a company line .
It's something they can use to justify their budget,
X- product exists , has some level of spec sheet , and comes from a recognized company ... And more than likely has use manual ...
So teagasc either replicate that or adapt it to Irish conditions ...
There may be a level of funding involved from the maker or distributor... (we'll give you 10 grand to do 100,000 of research/advertising )
Whereas bio-char can't be patented , probably would need serious long term research ... Probably linked to a university ... And could threaten some of their business links ...

Say my name

Markcheese wrote: »

Well , there's a bit of logic in teagasc following a company line .
It's something they can use to justify their budget,
X- product exists , has some level of spec sheet , and comes from a recognized company ... And more than likely has use manual ...
So teagasc either replicate that or adapt it to Irish conditions ...
There may be a level of funding involved from the maker or distributor... (we'll give you 10 grand to do 100,000 of research/advertising )
Whereas bio-char can't be patented , probably would need serious long term research ... Probably linked to a university ... And could threaten some of their business links ...

There's the English speaking academic world having not much interaction with the non English speaking world too.
On a world stage I'd guess a lot of this started in Austria, Germany, Switzerland. Then the manufacturing started in the Nordic countries. All have tradition of farming and forestry.
Then it migrated to the southern hemisphere Aus/nz with people of German, Austria, Swiss heritage.
Now China took it from the Aussies and Swiss and put their twist on it.
Then there's the Latin and southern American and African countries who were doing it already or were influenced by the Europeans.
In Ireland our research always looks to new Zealand. Our own twist on biochar was to send researchers out to China looking to develop it to use the waste sludge from the dairy processing plants.
Now it looks like they have a product marketed for its phosphorus reuse in agriculture. I don't know enough about it but it looks to have come down from high to make something of a problem.
In other countries they use timber here we use dairy sludge.
I suppose it's all positive but we can do better. We can support agro forestry and/or the forest industry and with biochar properly done it's a lifelong ammendment negating/lessening the need to use artificial fertilizer.

Across the stream.

https://youtu.be/_0QCFntQ99c

Edit: For the German side look up Dr.Claudia Kammonn. She'd be a good choice for Biofarm 2021.

Pinsnbushings

Say my name wrote: »

I've been at the biochar this past year.

Brought the subject up once with two different teagasc researchers. One replied it was too costly to use on farm.
Another replied that as a feed for cows it doesn't work.

Thankfully the rest of the world moves on and doesn't listen to teagasc.

I know for a fact they were trying to allign themselves with a patented chemical to include in feed to reduce methane.
The same thing happened with protected urea when all urea needed was a carbon source included.
Big companies with pull, lobby teagasc and teagasc do the trials.
Unfortunately they're still on the chemical side. Bugger the consequences down the line and there always are consequences.

I believe I read in the paper there is 55 staff on 100,000 a year plus working for teagasc. You'd hardly be too enthusiastic about stepping out of line in a setup like that if it jeopardised funding. As for value for money to the farmer????? Or like most state or semi state bodies value for the taxpayer..
Edit., they have done and continue to do a lot of good work too, so not totally anti Teagasc or anything but learning fast vested interests are everywhere.

endainoz

Pinsnbushings wrote: »

I believe I read in the paper there is 55 staff on 100,000 a year plus working for teagasc. You'd hardly be too enthusiastic about stepping out of line in a setup like that if it jeopardised funding. As for value for money to the farmer????? Or like most state or semi state bodies value for the taxpayer..
Edit., they have done and continue to do a lot of good work too, so not totally anti Teagasc or anything but learning fast vested interests are everywhere.

Overall I wouldn't have much time for them, they do have a couple of decent people in their organic department, but the majority of the helpful information they provide is easily available.

I did my green cert a few years back and it wasnt long after the milk quotas were gone. All they seemed to encourage was expand, expand, expand. More debt, more land, more stress. Not once did I ever hear a teagasc advisor saying to reduce a herd or to not build that shed.

More recently I was looking up a pdf document on hedging and the varieties to use etc. The first thing they recommend to do was to get a digger/jcb in to clear and dig a seed bed. I just kinda thought to myself, typical teagasc!

moneyheer

What are peoples thoughts on sobac
Sorry of posted in wrong thread. Asked teagasc advisor about said he didnt know much about it but would look into it never heard any more about it.

Markcheese

What's sobac ? ( I've no knowledge ,just nosey )

Say my name

moneyheer wrote: »

What are peoples thoughts on sobac
Sorry of posted in wrong thread. Asked teagasc advisor about said he didnt know much about it but would look into it never heard any more about it.

I haven't used Sobac but I've used other microbial products with success.
They leave the slurry darker and more liquid.

Tbh though we should all really be trying to make our own.
If you look up JMS (Jadam Microbial Solution) , that should work as a slurry bug solution.

Only cavaet is if you've dairy washings going in the tank it'll kill the bugs and it won't work. But if you've two separate tanks then drive on.

(I assume you are on about the Sobac slurry bugs?)

moneyheer

Markcheese wrote: »

What's sobac ? ( I've no knowledge ,just nosey )

Sobac id a french company based in southern France specialising in organic soil amendments.

Water John

Have been looking at some mixes for grazing from a few sources esp organic suppliers. Disappointed with some which have very high perennial ryegrass %. Some have over 11kg in a 13 kg mix.
Will look at the Cotswolds mixes as suggested by someone. I've downloaded their catalogues.

Pinsnbushings

Water John wrote: »

Have been looking at some mixes for grazing from a few sources esp organic suppliers. Disappointed with some which have very high perennial ryegrass %. Some have over 11kg in a 13 kg mix.
Will look at the Cotswolds mixes as suggested by someone. I've downloaded their catalogues.

I spoke to germinal when I was getting my seed and they directed me to buy through the coop which I did. The mix I ended up with wasn't the 1 from the germinal website though, not sure where it came out of. Cotswolds seem to be the place to go though, not sure where you can buy in Ireland or whether they ship them over. Maybe it was mentioned at biofarm?

Are any of the recordings available for ticket holders yet? I don't see them on the website.

Water John

The presentations are available this evening and the recordings tomorrow evening.
You can get extra licences, for friends or non ticket holders by contacting them. Nice present for anyone who expresses an interest, 0719640688 or email info@nots.ie

Dinzee Conlee

Water John wrote: »

Have been looking at some mixes for grazing from a few sources esp organic suppliers. Disappointed with some which have very high perennial ryegrass %. Some have over 11kg in a 13 kg mix.
Will look at the Cotswolds mixes as suggested by someone. I've downloaded their catalogues.

Not sure if you looked at this crowd already Walter?
https://www.fruithillfarm.com/seeds-and-propagation/green-manures-and-forage-crops/grass-and-meadow-mixes.html

Water John

Dinzee I actually use them as I'm organic, thanks. Their Organic Herbal Ley looks good but is 5% herbs enough?

https://www.fruithillfarm.com/seeds-and-propagation/green-manures-and-forage-crops/grass-and-meadow-mixes/permanent-pasture-44-with-herbs.html

Herbs; Caraway, Dill, Burnet, Fenugreek, Yarrow, Fennel, Coriander, Parsnip, Ribgrass,Trefoil, Parsley, Yellow Clover, Wild Carrot, Black Cumin, Birdsfoot Trefoil, Salad Burnet

endainoz

Water John wrote: »

Dinzee I actually use them as I'm organic, thanks. Their Organic Herbal Ley looks good but is 5% herbs enough?

https://www.fruithillfarm.com/seeds-and-propagation/green-manures-and-forage-crops/grass-and-meadow-mixes/permanent-pasture-44-with-herbs.html

Herbs; Caraway, Dill, Burnet, Fenugreek, Yarrow, Fennel, Coriander, Parsnip, Ribgrass,Trefoil, Parsley, Yellow Clover, Wild Carrot, Black Cumin, Birdsfoot Trefoil, Salad Burnet

I was thinking of getting some of this mix myself actually, will be interesting to see how it comes out.

Water John

Well I was reaching out, in light of all we heard last week, as to what mix would be appropriate for grazing. For example I included 1 kg annual bird flower seeds in my WBC mix. They were nice in the field but really not very abundant. Wondering is 5% not very effective?
Suggested mixes would be very welcome.

Markcheese

Does the quantity depend on the seed size ,?
So 5 % by weight of something with a tiny seed size could be loads .... Or not if the seeds are huge ..

Water John

Markcheese wrote: »

Does the quantity depend on the seed size ,?
So 5 % by weight of something with a tiny seed size could be loads .... Or not if the seeds are huge ..

Understand that, a good shout. I sowed WBC for Glas this year and put in 1kg of anuual bee flowers per acre in the mix along with 33kg oats and 5kg mustard.
That's about 2.5% and it was very little in the field when it germinated.

Markcheese

Could there be a germination issue ? Or the seed buried a bit ? Or even out competed by the mustard ?
But just as likely to be what you said about too little seed ..

Water John

Cotswolds from a brief look are the business.
Herbal Ley:
1.50 kg certified LAMPARD ORG hybrid ryegrass
1.50 kg certified HUSAR ORG cocksfoot
1.20 kg certified OAKPARK perennial ryegrass
0.60 kg certified WINNETOU timothy
0.50 kg certified LAURA ORG meadow fescue
0.50 kg certified KORA tall fescue
0.70 kg certified GLOBAL red clover
0.30 kg certified ABERHERALD white clover
0.20 kg certified ABERDAI white clover
0.20 kg certified LOMIAI alsike clover
0.20 kg certified LEO birdsfoot trefoil
0.30 kg certified LUZELLE lucerne
3.00 kg certified ORG sainfoin
0.50 kg commercial sweet clover
0.60 kg certified PUNA II chicory
0.20 kg certified ENDURANCE ribgrass
0.70 kg burnet
0.10 kg yarrow
0.20 kg sheeps parsley

That's 1.8kg herbs plus 3kg sainfoin.
Problem for me is, organic in Ireland allow a derogation, which you must apply for, a 70% organic mix. This mix 50% which may be what's allowed in the UK and I know you don't even have to apply for the derogation there.
Probably have to get them to formulate an Irish mix.

alps

How can you get from an existing rye grass sward to a multi species one if you were not to use glyphosate and dont want to (or couldn't deal with) ploughing?

Dinzee Conlee

Water John wrote: »

Cotswolds from a brief look are the business.
Herbal Ley:
1.50 kg certified LAMPARD ORG hybrid ryegrass
1.50 kg certified HUSAR ORG cocksfoot
1.20 kg certified OAKPARK perennial ryegrass
0.60 kg certified WINNETOU timothy
0.50 kg certified LAURA ORG meadow fescue
0.50 kg certified KORA tall fescue
0.70 kg certified GLOBAL red clover
0.30 kg certified ABERHERALD white clover
0.20 kg certified ABERDAI white clover
0.20 kg certified LOMIAI alsike clover
0.20 kg certified LEO birdsfoot trefoil
0.30 kg certified LUZELLE lucerne
3.00 kg certified ORG sainfoin
0.50 kg commercial sweet clover
0.60 kg certified PUNA II chicory
0.20 kg certified ENDURANCE ribgrass
0.70 kg burnet
0.10 kg yarrow
0.20 kg sheeps parsley

That's 1.8kg herbs plus 3kg sainfoin.
Problem for me is, organic in Ireland allow a derogation, which you must apply for, a 70% organic mix. This mix 50% which may be what's allowed in the UK and I know you don't even have to apply for the derogation there.
Probably have to get them to formulate an Irish mix.

Did someone here say that sainfoin doesn’t do well in Ireland?

alps

alps wrote: »

How can you get from an existing rye grass sward to a multi species one if you were not to use glyphosate and dont want to (or couldn't deal with) ploughing?

I've worked ryegrass and red clover into existing swards, but means going in directly after a tight silage cut and grazing very frequently with grass or as such waiting till.the followingbseason for the clover to finally co.w through, butcher is no way the like of plantain and othe herbs are going to establish with frequent and tight grazing..

Water John

alps wrote: »

How can you get from an existing rye grass sward to a multi species one if you were not to use glyphosate and dont want to (or couldn't deal with) ploughing?

I suppose it depends on whether you simply want to diversify the present sward. Then a harrow is probably the best option and mix for this can be got. As indicated over the conf, and we all well know, severe grazing stunts growth for 17 days. That gives you a head start. Graze lightly after 5/6 weeks seems to be the recommendation.

Looking at the Rakeman 3000 which Reggie suggested in another thread.

I'm certainly no expert, just groping for the right choices, like most.

Say my name

Water John wrote: »

I suppose it depends on whether you simply want to diversify the present sward. Then a harrow is probably the best option and mix for this can be got. As indicated over the conf, and we all well know, severe grazing stunts growth for 17 days. That gives you a head start. Graze lightly after 5/6 weeks seems to be the recommendation.

Looking at the Rakeman 3000 which Reggie suggested in another thread.

I'm certainly no expert, just groping for the right choices, like most.

That thingamajig in Australia was called the Soilkee.

https://m.facebook.com/soilkee/

It's basically a shallow rotovator of sorts with an air seeder ..with no glypho used.

If you put too much bacteria on soil you can actually burn the roots a bit and stunt the plant. It's always the watch thing in knf. That's why they don't recommend to go over their recommended dilution rates.

Water John

Say my name wrote: »

That thingamajig in Australia was called the Soilkee.

https://m.facebook.com/soilkee/

It's basically a shallow rotovator of sorts with an air seeder ..with no glypho used.

If you put too much bacteria on soil you can actually burn the roots a bit and stunt the plant. It's always the watch thing in knf. That's why they don't recommend to go over their recommended dilution rates.

Must look at it again but it looked simply like a strip seeder. The price was €56K ??

Say my name

Water John wrote: »

Must look at it again but it looked simply like a strip seeder. The price was €56K ??

There's no disks on it. It's a revolving cylinder with straight tines/plates off it.

You could just give your own a run of a power harrow with seeder.
I think there's a thing with the multi species that some seeds like different planting depths that a strip till can't really manage.

alps

Water John wrote: »

I suppose it depends on whether you simply want to diversify the present sward. Then a harrow is probably the best option and mix for this can be got. As indicated over the conf, and we all well know, severe grazing stunts growth for 17 days. That gives you a head start. Graze lightly after 5/6 weeks seems to be the recommendation.

Looking at the Rakeman 3000 which Reggie suggested in another thread.

I'm certainly no expert, just groping for the right choices, like most.

The 17 day bit has got me sort of confused.

What was presented was that roots don't begin to "recover" until 17 days after a grazing..

What happens them? Do they shrink while putting energy and nutrients up in to the leaf?

We hit between 10 and 12 grazings on paddocks this year, which meant that we were down to 18 day rotation mid Summer.

I cant make out how we have any roots??

Water John

SNM look at the pic in this;
https://www.weeklytimesnow.com.au/machine/soilkee-pasture-renovator-a-saviour-for-tired-soils/news-story/66ec231af65de949c189fd17af12ff39

Similar to rotovator blades, spaced out.
Considering an air seeder is between €3/6.5k. It doesn't have covering tines or a press roller.
Do you think the mulcher at the front would provide feed for the new seeds?