Government flip flops / school closures

Irishphotodesk · 03-01-2021 1:51pm

Rosita wrote: »

Would love to know the science behind this, as in what's the evidence the 5k causes greater infection spread.

if you really can't understand that people being allowed to travel further allows the virus to travel further, there is no hope for society to survive this pandemic without more lives lost.

Rosita · 03-01-2021 1:57pm

Irishphotodesk wrote: »

if you really can't understand that people being allowed to travel further allows the virus to travel further, there is no hope for society to survive this pandemic without more lives lost.

I wouldn't have thought that my failure to understand would have such broader societal ramifications but maybe I matter more than I thought!

shesty · 03-01-2021 1:59pm

Smacruairi wrote: »

The era of excuses, on all sides, is coming to an end. No more anxiety, no more wellbeing, just solutions and moving forward properly, and if systems aren't ready, heads should roll and get someone in place who can carry out that task.

I think this era ended back in early August sometime.March to August.....5 months....they had to sort their s&%t out.A good PM company could have sorted out the basics, it is absolutely not rocket science - as we have seen simply apply a little common sense, and a solution can be found for 99% of the problems.The head in the sand approach is beyond infuriating.The same applies to the HSE by the way.And we are all paying for the ineptness, students, parents and teachers.It is just not good enough.My best recommendation would be to pester your local TDs, as either a parent, teacher or student.Frankly, OAPs did that back in April when asked to cocoon - I think it's time the rest of us started to take that approach and make our voices heard, because nothing will change if we don't.

Rosita · 03-01-2021 2:01pm

Treppen wrote: »

Some parks in Dublin are jammers, so there's a big difference between 2k and 5k

But not everyone lives in Dublin. I do but not everyone. And the only difference it'll make as far as I can see is that smaller local parks and footpaths will be jammers instead. Seems to me that it's counter-productive. If I drive to the Phoenix Park for a walk I would be in far less proximity to other people. But like I said, I'd love to hear the actual evidence behind it. Sounds to me like "everyone knows" science.

Leftwaffe · 03-01-2021 2:01pm

Eamon Ryan hasn’t a scooby doo, what he said today makes no difference. It will be decided towards the end of the week. Too late of course but we all know to expect that.

shesty · 03-01-2021 2:02pm

Teach30 wrote: »

Good for you, hope your enjoying the luxury of it. I’m moving into an old house, no heating, so carpets pretty essential imo. Flooring has been ripped up and kitchen floor just a concrete mess. I’m very hesitant to part with money for a mattress having never tried it.
Paint has been stripped from walls, fine I can do without that. I have no furniture whatsoever so I would consider a trip to purchase these essential. Not good enough to say buy online, it’s a lot of money to waste if not suitable. Chairs needs to be tested for comfort etc.

I’ve been more than careful thus far, making appointments to visit shops and choose is fine by me but they needn’t be fully closed.

Can you find a local Facebook page and see if anyone is offering free stuff?Certainly around here, there are "free stuff" or recycling pages for all the towns and people regularly put up furniture and appliances, or request stuff uf they are moving house and starting from scratch too.Might tide you over for a bit, with no money needed.

amacca · 03-01-2021 2:02pm

Irishphotodesk wrote: »

if you really can't understand that people being allowed to travel further allows the virus to travel further, there is no hope for society to survive this pandemic without more lives lost.

Ah ffs ...its not as simple or black and white as that. There may be data that shows there is very little difference between 2k and 5k in most locations.

Eg: I live in the countryside.....i could travel 10k in some directions and not meet a sinner on a Sunday afternoon.....

Perhaps 2k is preferable in built up areas.. .imo the whole thing is window dressing because if someone wants to do something how are they going to enforce it.....my pharmacy where my elderly parents gett prescriptions is 15k away...i could claim to be going there 5 days a week.if I want and it would be a complete waste of police time and resources to verify if it was the case or not

There are myriad other legitimate and not legitimate but completely unenforceable ways to breach this...it depends on people being responsible not people sticking rigidly to a 2000m radius from their home.

Its faintly ridiculous you would be criticising someone for wondering where the data that shows 2k better than 5k when huge numbers will simply disregard something that's practically unenforceable anyway...thats the reality of this.

Irishphotodesk · 03-01-2021 2:02pm

Rosita wrote: »

I wouldn't have thought that my failure to understand would have such broader societal ramifications but maybe I matter more than I thought!

every life matters !

So, yes, your life matters to more than you realise, same for everyone else out there, your life matters to more people than you know....stay safe.

rainbowtrout · 03-01-2021 2:03pm

Rosita wrote: »

Would love to know the science behind this, as in what's the evidence the 5k causes greater infection spread.

People take the piss and travel further than the limit set. It's not like there's a greater density of people out and about when there is a 2km limit. People don't all go out for exercise at the same time. But once it's set at a distance that is beyond walking distance, people use it as an excuse to get in their cars and go elsewhere. And when people have that mentality, it's easy to see that people will stop in to get coffee somewhere, to run into that shop 'for just 5 minutes' to see what they have etc etc. I've never seen the crowds in my local park that I've seen in the last two days and I've been living here for 20 years.

Ultimately there's lots of people who are selfish and self absorbed.

Irishphotodesk · 03-01-2021 2:08pm

amacca wrote: »

Ah ffs ...its not as simple or black and white as that. There may be data that shows there is very little difference between 2k and 5k in most locations.

Eg: I live in the countryside.....i could travel 10k in some directions and not meet a sinner on a Sunday afternoon.....

Perhaps 2k is preferable in built up areas.. .imo the whole thing is window dressing because if someone wants to do something how are they going to enforce it.....my pharmacy where my elderly parents gett prescriptions is 15k away...i could claim to be going there 5 days a week.if I want and it would be a complete waste of police time and resources to verify if it was the case or not

There are myriad other legitimate and not legitimate but completely unenforceable ways to breach this...it depends on people being responsible not people sticking rigidly to a 2000m radius from their home.

Its faintly ridiculous you would be criticising someone for wondering where the data that shows 2k better than 5k when huge numbers will simply disregard something that's practically unenforceable anyway...thats the reality of this.

the whole point of creating these recommendations is to save lives - yes there would be places in rural ireland where the 2k, 5k or even 20k limit won't make a difference, but if the government try to say its ok in a rural setting, but not in an urban setting then...its asking for people to ignore it.

in the past we have had rural publicans saying their customers should be allowed to drink and drive - statistically they would be safer to drive home after a few pints compared to someone in an urban setting ....but do you believe that's the best approach ? or should we make a rule/recommendation and try to ensure the whole country abide by these ....to save lives !

simple solution is everyone stay indoors for 2/3 weeks, nobody move ....this would stop the spread but of course you will always get people who believe they know better than immunologists, virologists and other professionals with ists at the end of their job title.

rainbowtrout · 03-01-2021 2:09pm

Rosita wrote: »

Yeah, there's a problem with the phrase 'lockdown' in that now covers everything but the current level of restrictions will have limited effect on numbers. Even in late October I spoke to a girl who works in a shop near an industrial area and she said that it was as busy as ever.

Signs on that they got numbers down to 300/400 and no lower before lifting restrictions again in December. They spoke about getting them under 100 but never threatened to achieve that. Varadker's rant which delayed the onset of Level 5 in October didn't help either. Would have given an extra couple of weeks breathing space. But my sense is that the current restrictions are not visibly impactful.

I think attempts to keep the economy open while running restrictions in parallel will in the heel of the hunt prove to have been false economics. One hard lockdown for 4-6 weeks, with the vaccine on the horizon and improving weather conditions might have cracked it in the New Year but they seem to have lost the stomach to do that.

Yep, when it only got down to 300-400 when the restriction was lifted, it was only going to go one way. It was down to double digits in the summer when things started opening up again.

What is needed and is entirely beyond our control is a snow like 2010 where people literally can't leave their homes for a few weeks, and that will stop people going out buying stuff that they don't need and meeting up in large groups etc.

o1s1n · 03-01-2021 2:12pm

Teach30 wrote: »

Good for you, hope your enjoying the luxury of it. I’m moving into an old house, no heating, so carpets pretty essential imo. Flooring has been ripped up and kitchen floor just a concrete mess. I’m very hesitant to part with money for a mattress having never tried it.
Paint has been stripped from walls, fine I can do without that. I have no furniture whatsoever so I would consider a trip to purchase these essential. Not good enough to say buy online, it’s a lot of money to waste if not suitable. Chairs needs to be tested for comfort etc.

I’ve been more than careful thus far, making appointments to visit shops and choose is fine by me but they needn’t be fully closed.

Chairs need to be tested for comfort?

You're living in a house with no carpets or heating man! Get something to park your rear end on for cheap/free and work out the comfort stuff later.

rainbowtrout · 03-01-2021 2:16pm

Rosita wrote: »

But not everyone lives in Dublin. I do but not everyone. And the only difference it'll make as far as I can see is that smaller local parks and footpaths will be jammers instead. Seems to me that it's counter-productive. If I drive to the Phoenix Park for a walk I would be in far less proximity to other people. But like I said, I'd love to hear the actual evidence behind it. Sounds to me like "everyone knows" science.

Yes, you and the other 10,000 people who have the exact same idea.

wirelessdude01 · 03-01-2021 2:18pm

o1s1n wrote: »

Chairs need to be tested for comfort?

You're living in a house with no carpets or heating man! Get something to park your rear end on for cheap/free and work out the comfort stuff later.

As I said we moved in and literally had a mattress, cardboard on the windows and bough what white goods we needed online. We survived like this until things opened up again. No floors, no carpets, no curtains no blinds, no Internet, no TV.

We picked up crappy chairs from a Facebook group until we got into a shop.

Rosita · 03-01-2021 2:25pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Yes, you and the other 10,000 people who have the exact same idea.

Indeed.........in an area of 1,750 acres. Plenty of space. That's my point.

amacca · 03-01-2021 2:26pm

Irishphotodesk wrote: »

the whole point of creating these recommendations is to save lives - yes there would be places in rural ireland where the 2k, 5k or even 20k limit won't make a difference, but if the government try to say its ok in a rural setting, but not in an urban setting then...its asking for people to ignore it.

In your opinion.....in my opinion because I have legitimate reason to break 5k or 2k daily I'm going to completely ignore the distance ........i am however going to limit any contacts severely to essential food and medicine purchase and as little as possible.....it matters not one **** if I go from Malin Head to Mizen head if I do that.

But I do take your point they can't really put nuance in this stuff given the range of intelligence you are dealing with in a population.

Irishphotodesk wrote: »

in the past we have had rural publicans saying their customers should be allowed to drink and drive - statistically they would be safer to drive home after a few pints compared to someone in an urban setting ....but do you believe that's the best approach ? or should we make a rule/recommendation and try to ensure the whole country abide by these ....to save lives !

Is this about drink driving or you jumping on someone and criticizing them for questioning the effectiveness of a 2k limit.....which btw I also question......on the basis if wtf is the point of having a rule you can't possibly enforce because you don't have the manpower/data to do so and there are so many legitimate reasons to not comply....honestly it's just window dressing and if you can't see that you are naieve....

And if its not window dressing then it feels a bit like trying to store liquid in a sieve........id be with the poster on questioning why bother with 2k limit at all but for the reasons above....to me it seems like a or exercise to be seen to be doing something ...that in reality will achieve little but embolden people to have more disregard for the rules/guidelines

Irishphotodesk wrote: »

simple solution is everyone stay indoors for 2/3 weeks, nobody move ....this would stop the spread but of course you will always get people who believe they know better than immunologists, virologists and other professionals with ists at the end of their job title.

I don't believe I know more than immunologists....I do believe you think you are the last word on this but that's probably not the case.

Yes everybody staying indoors for 2/3 weeks would work.. ...but how likely do you think that is without enforcement? And if you can't enforce it and you are depending on public buy in, how useful do you think it is to bring in a 2k limit that practically everyone can come up with a legitimate reason to break daily (or at least one you couldnt hope to verify with the manpower available?)

Teach30 · 03-01-2021 2:36pm

o1s1n wrote: »

Chairs need to be tested for comfort?

You're living in a house with no carpets or heating man! Get something to park your rear end on for cheap/free and work out the comfort stuff later.

Your of a totally different mindset to me I’m afraid. I don’t do second hand - too snobby for that, and such waste buying something now only to replace it a few months down the line. So yes chairs/couch needs to be sat on to see do they suit ones frame as does a mattress need to be tested to see if it’s comfortable.

I have no issue with attending a shop at a certain time, maintaining distance and choosing correct items. If needs be I’ll stay living at home though and be very careful at school.

Personally this idea of meeting people for a walk etc needs to be cut out, I’ve friends going from group to group doing this every other day. No need for it. I didnt bother meeting anyone over Christmas either but know of colleagues who held/went to get togethers. Ridiculous carry on.

Gael23 · 03-01-2021 2:45pm

Would you all be willing to help with contact tracing during normal school hours should schools be closed?

Treppen · 03-01-2021 2:48pm

Gael23 wrote: »

Would you all be willing to help with contact tracing during normal school hours should schools be closed?

And teach online and mind kids at the same time.
Sure where do I sign up.

Rosita · 03-01-2021 2:48pm

Gael23 wrote: »

Would you all be willing to help with contact tracing during normal school hours should schools be closed?

Happily, once a contact tracer is freed up to teach my students. Wouldn't mind a change.

amacca · 03-01-2021 2:49pm

Gael23 wrote: »

Would you all be willing to help with contact tracing during normal school hours should schools be closed?

Not a teacher anymore but if I was I would....as long as proper training and equipment (if necessary) provided

Can you contact trace from home do you know?

I'd have an issue swapping one crowded workplace for a crowded office.

Also is a 2 to 4mb line sufficient?

Oh and obviously that would be if teaching wasnt going to happening at the same time as others have mentioned

It's not btw that wouldn't be willing to use my computer/laptop just that I woukdnt want to be liable for data privacy concerns if my private computer was being used.....ud rather a secure laptop/computer than my own if there are liabilities for the contact trace there.

o1s1n · 03-01-2021 2:49pm

Teach30 wrote: »

Your of a totally different mindset to me I’m afraid. I don’t do second hand - too snobby for that, and such waste buying something now only to replace it a few months down the line. So yes chairs/couch needs to be sat on to see do they suit ones frame as does a mattress need to be tested to see if it’s comfortable.

I have no issue with attending a shop at a certain time, maintaining distance and choosing correct items. If needs be I’ll stay living at home though and be very careful at school.

Personally this idea of meeting people for a walk etc needs to be cut out, I’ve friends going from group to group doing this every other day. No need for it. I didnt bother meeting anyone over Christmas either but know of colleagues who held/went to get togethers. Ridiculous carry on.

I now have an image of you sitting on a brand new leather Chesterfield drinking a fine whiskey, in a room with a cement floor and no paint on the walls... :pac:

km79 · 03-01-2021 2:51pm

Gael23 wrote: »

Would you all be willing to help with contact tracing during normal school hours should schools be closed?

No
I’ll be teaching and spending the rest of the time /my evenings preparing online content for the following day and correction online assignments

am_zarathustra · 03-01-2021 2:53pm

Gael23 wrote: »

Would you all be willing to help with contact tracing during normal school hours should schools be closed?

Jesus where do I sign up, I am dreading being up til 11 every night prepping and correcting and tracking down kids not engaging. I have 2 HL LC classes so best to get someone with a bit of expience teaching my subjects from the pool of contact tracers! Maybe that's where all of those subject teachers are, because they are not rocking around Dublin waiting for a call for substitution.

shesty · 03-01-2021 3:35pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Yep, when it only got down to 300-400 when the restriction was lifted, it was only going to go one way. It was down to double digits in the summer when things started opening up again.

What is needed and is entirely beyond our control is a snow like 2010 where people literally can't leave their homes for a few weeks, and that will stop people going out buying stuff that they don't need and meeting up in large groups etc.

Yeah but...it just creates a false environment where numbers are low for a bit then creep up again.I mean I see the point of it, I clearly understand what we are doing, it just is getting extremely tiring to constantly hear "stay at home" when it's all you have done all year and nothing has changed.None of this really solves the problem. Living with covid, we are not.

amacca · 03-01-2021 4:31pm

shesty wrote: »

Yeah but...it just creates a false environment where numbers are low for a bit then creep up again.I mean I see the point of it, I clearly understand what we are doing, it just is getting extremely tiring to constantly hear "stay at home" when it's all you have done all year and nothing has changed.None of this really solves the problem. Living with covid, we are not.

It does solve the problem of health service being over run and people who may otherwise have made it with intervention dying because they prioritise others with what resources we have got

Or rather prevents it.....

Going into rolling lockdowns is the main/only real tool at their disposal until enough are vaccinated

Perhaps I'm wrong but stating that none of this solves the problem seems incorrect to me.....being told limit your contacts and stsy at home where possible doesnt solve the problem of having to stay at home and limit your contacts all right...it may have solved the problem that would have occurred if it was let run or suppressed or any other supposedly feasible alternative strategy was used would you agree?

And even though our health service/hse (and I stress not the frpntline people in it) could be a lot better im reluctant to say there woukd be much other options if it was one of the best in the world.....assuming that is we don't want the thing to get out of hand and let people who could be saved die

I do somewhat take the point that lockdowns can be damaging too but on the whole I think they are the better path to avoid unnecessary loss of life and podsibly even bigger problems with political instability and social cohesion down the road that not using lock downs as a strategy might result in.

I'm open to informed evidence based correction however.....

wirelessdude01 · 03-01-2021 5:21pm

Gael23 wrote: »

Would you all be willing to help with contact tracing during normal school hours should schools be closed?

And who is going to do the online teaching with my class?

shesty · 03-01-2021 5:41pm

It is more that we were doing it to buy time...it would be nice to see something being done on the other side of the fence with the time bought, I guess.The HSE/Gov and (relative to this thread) Dept of Ed. side of the fence.

And don't get me wrong, I am not running around a load of houses, keeping to rules as best I can, it is just wearing fairly thin at this point.

Irishphotodesk · 03-01-2021 5:46pm

amacca wrote: »

In your opinion.....in my opinion because I have legitimate reason to break 5k or 2k daily I'm going to completely ignore the distance ........i am however going to limit any contacts severely to essential food and medicine purchase and as little as possible.....it matters not one **** if I go from Malin Head to Mizen head if I do that.

But I do take your point they can't really put nuance in this stuff given the range of intelligence you are dealing with in a population.

Is this about drink driving or you jumping on someone and criticizing them for questioning the effectiveness of a 2k limit.....which btw I also question......on the basis if wtf is the point of having a rule you can't possibly enforce because you don't have the manpower/data to do so and there are so many legitimate reasons to not comply....honestly it's just window dressing and if you can't see that you are naieve....

And if its not window dressing then it feels a bit like trying to store liquid in a sieve........id be with the poster on questioning why bother with 2k limit at all but for the reasons above....to me it seems like a or exercise to be seen to be doing something ...that in reality will achieve little but embolden people to have more disregard for the rules/guidelines

I don't believe I know more than immunologists....I do believe you think you are the last word on this but that's probably not the case.

Yes everybody staying indoors for 2/3 weeks would work.. ...but how likely do you think that is without enforcement? And if you can't enforce it and you are depending on public buy in, how useful do you think it is to bring in a 2k limit that practically everyone can come up with a legitimate reason to break daily (or at least one you couldnt hope to verify with the manpower available?)

my comment about the drink driving was in regards to the urban/rural argument - I'm do agree with you that if you live in a rural area where you can travel without interaction then happy days, the government introduce recommendations not laws/rules - so its uptown the general public to do their best to limit the spread, if you are happy to wander more than the 5K limit recommendation - that's your business and the gardai are unlikely to charge you with anything unless you are the type of person who is blatantly abusing the situation, ie. going to a beach or wandering the shops.

you obviously would not be abusing the 5km limit given your rural location - I'm unlikely to move beyond my 5km limit (and to me 2km or 5km makes no difference, not much else around apart from roads/fields)

asking people to stay within 5km of their home "should" reduce the spread IF people pay attention and do what is asked, in the same way that reducing the movements to 2km would reduce the amount of interactions between people and therefore reduce the potential to spread the virus.

in simple terms if you look at a map of where you are and put a 2km circle around your position, how many people does your circle interact with ? if you did the same for 5km - is there more people in your circle ? more risk of interacting with those people ie. more risk of spreading the virus.

Same for 20km radius if you draw a circle around your position with a 20km radius, how many people are in your circle.

The government should really be clear with people and tell them what makes a close contact and how the virus is transmitted, also explaining how to identify the signs/symptoms and when people should isolate/restrict movements.

We have had covid in our house - my wife originally had it - it presented itself as a headcold- after a few days, sense of smell/taste went and we called the GP to organise a covid test - just to be 100% safe, we were shocked when she got the positive result (she was sent to a bedroom to isolate after the doc suggested she get the covid test done and the rest of the house was sanitised from top to bottom)
the following few days we were all tested .... one of the kids tested positive, another week later, I tested positive , after a month from original test, we were able to leave the house, we went as far as the back garden and didn't interact with anyone during our month of isolation.

for about 6weeks afterwards going up and down stairs caused breathlessness, it feels like someone has an invisible belt around your chest and can tighten it at any time, we wouldn't wish it on anyone and have been doing our best to reduce interactions with anyone, we spent christmas in our own home and seen family on computer/tablet screens only.

amacca · 03-01-2021 5:51pm

shesty wrote: »

It is more that we were doing it to buy time...it would be nice to see something being done on the other side of the fence with the time bought, I guess.The HSE/Gov and (relative to this thread) Dept of Ed. side of the fence.

And don't get me wrong, I am not running around a load of houses, keeping to rules as best I can, it is just wearing fairly thin at this point.

Fair enough.....Like what sort of actions should they be taking on the other side of the fence with the time bought would you think?

To my mind the strategy is rolling lock downs until enough of a percentage of population vaccinated, coukd they be doing the vaccination more efficiently?

Bobtheman · 03-01-2021 6:18pm

km79 wrote: »

I have no sympathy for her. She had a permanent teaching job but she was more interested in playing the political game . She won and got what she wanted despite being way way too inexperienced for what we needed in an Education Minister at such a crucial time. The worst thing is that in terms of politics she is doing a good job for her party/the govt as she has toed the party line and done their bidding throughout.
I don’t want to see another teacher in as Ed Minister for a long long time.
They are completely different jobs with different skills sets .

I generally agree we need more women in politics. Look at the poor state of childcare in Ireland as proof. With many male politicians having never minded a kid full time in their lives. I could cite many other issues.
However having Gender quotas for cabinet is a bad idea. Norma got in there because they needed a woman.. Lisa Chambers lost her Dail seat otherwise she would have been it. Otherwise I don't understand why you appoint anybody just in the Dail to a ministry unless they have exceptional experience. Being a secondary teacher is not enough to get education after three months in the Dail.
However FF doesn't have a huge amount of talent and unless a big beast got it - Martin was going to push around any junior politician who got it.
I don't think background particularly matters in politics. It's a profession on its own. Margaret thatcher was a chemist but say what you like about her - she got her way. Lemass was in politics since his 20s. Its the determination to change things. However our political system which requires politicians to have their head up constituents arses doesn't help. Bertie canvassed every week despite supposedly running the nation. Cameron never did that

KaneToad · 03-01-2021 6:28pm

Bobtheman wrote: »

I generally agree we need more women in politics. Look at the poor state of childcare in Ireland as proof. With many male politicians having never minded a kid full time in their lives. I could cite many other issues.
However having Gender quotas for cabinet is a bad idea. Norma got in there because they needed a woman.. Lisa Chambers lost her Dail seat otherwise she would have been it. Otherwise I don't understand why you appoint anybody just in the Dail to a ministry unless they have exceptional experience. Being a secondary teacher is not enough to get education after three months in the Dail.
However FF doesn't have a huge amount of talent and unless a big beast got it - Martin was going to push around any junior politician who got it.
I don't think background particularly matters in politics. It's a profession on its own. Margaret thatcher was a chemist but say what you like about her - she got her way. Lemass was in politics since his 20s. Its the determination to change things. However our political system which requires politicians to have their head up constituents arses doesn't help. Bertie canvassed every week despite supposedly running the nation. Cameron never did that

Why would she be more qualified than the current incumbent?

mtoutlemonde · 03-01-2021 6:49pm

km79 wrote: »

Stephen Donnelly is Health . He too is out of his depth completely.

He has been out of the limelight since he said there was more of a risk on a trampoline than in a school. He is also a self righteous so and so.

amacca · 03-01-2021 6:54pm

Irishphotodesk wrote: »

The government should really be clear with people and tell them what makes a close contact and how the virus is transmitted, also explaining how to identify the signs/symptoms and when people should isolate/restrict

I think that's where you and I fundamentally differ

Afaic they have been very clear about how the virus is transmitted and symptoms via tv/radio advertising, social media campaigns, hse wrbsite, public health officials your local helpful friendly immunologist interviews every second day on current affairs programs.....christ I've heard more from luke I Neill in the past month than when he was my tutor at college

If you don't know the above by now you've been living under a rock and no Govt can reach you ....they have perhaps muddied the waters on what makes a close contact by the way they define or try not to define an reclassify contacts in schools vs other places and that coukd certainly cause some cognitive dissonance but on the whole people unless they are complete gob****es or living in a social media conspiracy bubble know these things but still go about doing stupid selfish unnecessarily risky ****? Why....was it because they didn't make enough of recommendations to them to stay within 2km of the house do you think?

What I think they should do is set down clear rules about mixing and enforce them with penalties (significant fines / attached to income or social welfare) for all sectors of society and ignore ineffective recommendations about distance from your house thst most people ignore on a daily basis (outside of urban centres anyway) ....or if thats not possible then some form of consequence to encourage compliance

5km not as good as 2km when it comes to reducing contacts ...its not like I dont understand the simplistic logic of what you are saying, its that I think its a completely ineffective step to take in the real world because a large swathe of people will simply ignore and go about their business (including the unnecessary ****wit business) what im saying is it's compete PR/window dressing and it's as you said a recommendation..........its on the level of chocolate teapot solution to making tea....

km79 · 03-01-2021 7:02pm

I think we are now looking at remote learning until end of January at least
Maybe until mid term

Postgrad10 · 03-01-2021 7:10pm

I hope so km79. It would be the correct thing to do. The risk is too great.

shesty · 03-01-2021 7:17pm

amacca wrote: »

Fair enough.....Like what sort of actions should they be taking on the other side of the fence with the time bought would you think?

To my mind the strategy is rolling lock downs until enough of a percentage of population vaccinated, coukd they be doing the vaccination more efficiently?

I think...having watched this roll out for several months....there are probably some basic things they could be done, and then some bigger, longer term things.( and obviously I am making assumptions here that none of things are in discussion anywhere) -and my apologies for dragging the thread way off course here, I will head away after this!!

My biggest fear is that we come out of this with no changes to our healthcare system.That we will pat ourselves on the back and say sure it's great, we survived, RIP all the dead, health workers were brilliant, and then continue limping on with a private/public hybrid thing where nobody wins except the consultants and trolley numbers are just increasing and increasing year on year...and then the next time something like this hits, we will all be running around like idiots again.Will we take the chance to reconfigure our health system?More primary care centres, no public/private contracts for consultants(I am aware this is rolling out), maybe another medical layer between Senior registrar, and consultant, maybe -just maybe - abolishing the VHI and similar and implementing a universal healthcare payment or similar to cover costs?? Increased ICU capacity, increase bed numbers, any of it?That is a medium term thing, but it has been there for years and tbh if a pandemic hasn't highlighted it in glaring lights enough, with an open chequebook and an "open" scope to do practically anything with hospitals to make things work, then I suspect nothing ever will......

I think vaccination could be done more efficiently.I am aware supply and demand is obviously an issue but this is not a new problem.We knew this was coming, so it was controllable to certain degree.We certainly should be tracking and reporting on how many are vaccinated, we are quick enough to report case numbers.I believe Donnelly is implementing this reporting; let's hope it works out.Short term issue.

Tracking and tracing seems to be a huge pillar in the success in countries that are handling this well.We appear to have failed fairly abysmally at this.And I don't just mean in the last 3 weeks, I mean from day 1 we struggled to manage it.So we have now reached a point where our formula for success seems to be reduced to testing those with symptoms, and a vaccine.And until then, shut everything.It is very extreme at both ends of the scale, the middle ground of actually living with it more comfortably could possibly be assisted better by more effective tracking tracing and isolating, but we will never really know, because we haven't really tried it.Also a shortish term issue.

As background noise goes, I am firmly of the opinion that the nightly news conferences should go.There is research out there showing that the rolling 24 hour news cycle creates a situation where people start to become "desensitised" so to speak - they can't possibly take on board and feel for every single bad news story that comes across the screen, so they start to stop listening essentially, their brain has to filter most of it out to protect their mental health.I wonder if this is becoming the case here.I know myself I literally avoid any story or headline to do with covid, NPHET, cases, anything.I just don't want to hear it anymore.It may also be why the constant refrain of "the next 2 weeks are critical," and that NPHET are "very concerned" and references to catastrophic numbers etc, etc, just loses all meaning after a point.There is only so much of that stuff that anyone can pay attention to and maybe if they dialled it back and saved for a point in time when numbers were actually increasing rapidly, it might be listened to more, with a corresponding effect on people's reactions.

My other criticism, mainly of late, is that if they make a decision, they should try to hang a bit longer to see what works.Minds were changed 3 times in the space of about 24 hours right before Christmas.The situation was critical, yes- but even on Jan 1st, we were barely 24 hours into the latest L5, and already NPHET were sending letters about maybe needing more restructions.I just feel they need to think about this more strategically long term, about how to bring people with them.I don't like it, but you know, maybe if they stopped kite flying about extra restrictions and extended time now, when we KNOW things are bad, and came back in 2 weeks with a good bit of data behind them and said look we have to extend this by 3 more weeks, they might get more people on their side.I just think by barely giving the thing a chance now, they are possibly losing people already.

As regards schools, (and I will keep this short because have gone on too long already) - I just hink the Deot have behaved abysmally in this.They left it far too late to bring out guidelines for schools, they should have centralised procurement for all items such as PPE, voice amplifiers, cleaning supplies etc, anf they should have made available budgets to school with no proper IT hardware for teachers at the very least.Exams could be sorted by now (maybe they are), a single platform for online teaching could have been put in place, and detailed guidelines made available.

Hindsight is obviously 20-20 but the fact is as more time passes, the apparent lack of initiative on the part of the Gov/HSE is becoming irritating.Constantly pointing fingers at the public is getting pretty old, and the squabbling among ourselves over whether a runner can breathe on you, or whether 2km is better than 5km is taking attention off the decision makers.Right down to the IT system not being able to handle the number of case reports and it is basically the public's fault for getting too many infections....I mean, really?It is worrying that they can use models of big numbers to make decisions about closing the economy but apparently not to prepare the health service in any way.

I shall leave it at that, as the thread is being dragged way off course -I appreciate it is probably a topic for discussion from many angles but this is obviously not the right place for it.

beveragelady · 03-01-2021 7:22pm

Gael23 wrote: »

Would you all be willing to help with contact tracing during normal school hours should schools be closed?

I would happily go on the dole, or get by on my savings, if it meant not returning to online teaching. I would also cheerfully work at contact tracing or delivering to isolated elderly or absolutely anything else, and I would be willing to take a paycut if that goes with the job.
If we're given a definite timeline for online teaching I can cope. If it's open-ended I don't think I'll manage. It's a nightmare.

km79 · 03-01-2021 7:26pm

https://www.rte.ie/radio/radioplayer/html5/#/radio1/21889228

Anne Piggott ASTI
She spoke well in fairness
Meeting of all stakeholders is tomorrow apparently

amacca · 03-01-2021 7:28pm

A lot of fair points there...I too dont want to drag thread off topic but just on them reforming the health service because of this I would agree with you, that's highly unlikely to happen anytime soon and if something like this did occur in say 10/15 years I'd fully expect the response to be no better.....but I'm a pessimist (I prefer to say realist) I suppose.

shesty · 03-01-2021 7:38pm

Admittedly, the same here amacca.

And there we shall leave it :-)

Treppen · 03-01-2021 7:48pm

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Jesus where do I sign up, I am dreading being up til 11 every night prepping and correcting and tracking down kids not engaging. I have 2 HL LC classes so best to get someone with a bit of expience teaching my subjects from the pool of contact tracers! Maybe that's where all of those subject teachers are, because they are not rocking around Dublin waiting for a call for substitution.

On rte radio they had government adds out encouraging people to do the PME , so I bet they are eager to get you cover ASAP am_

rainbowtrout · 03-01-2021 7:50pm

Treppen wrote: »

On rte radio they had government adds out encouraging people to do the PME , so I bet they are eager to get you cover ASAP am_

Really? Numbers must be down for applications this year. Students looking at the current situation and going 'no way am I signing up for that mess'.

Treppen · 03-01-2021 8:00pm

Is it beyond the bounds of possibility for the department to set up online bookable drop in clinics/tutorials for leaving and junior certs?

Plenty of JCT / Inspectorate experts who love telling us how to teach. Now is their time to shine and cut out the middleman.

mirrorwall14 · 03-01-2021 8:15pm

Considering they haven’t even managed to join the dots between very high risk teachers and students working from home..... I mean my school are delighted to have an extra pair of hands not in the classroom but if they were doing this right every teacher working from home should have been in a database and running a couple of tutorials a day online. Or even recording lessons and topics for the whole country equipment and training supplied on line. This could have been invaluable time creating resources and supporting the whole country. Instead it’s been very useful for me and my school and I’m building a data base of lessons for my own department. But completely useless for the whole DES

rainbowtrout · 03-01-2021 8:47pm

Treppen wrote: »

Is it beyond the bounds of possibility for the department to set up online bookable drop in clinics/tutorials for leaving and junior certs?

Plenty of JCT / Inspectorate experts who love telling us how to teach. Now is their time to shine and cut out the middleman.

Ya couldn't the inspectorate offer 'masterclasses' that students could sign up for and attend on zoom. They are the experts after all :pac:

It's a tragedy that we don't get to avail of their knowledge and experience in this difficult year. :pac:

ethical · 03-01-2021 8:59pm

You mean the Egotists that have sat on their butts since last March and have contributed nothing to the teachers on the frontline!

Do you honestly expect them to contribute,working remotely,on their "funded" home office and state of the art laptops?

Louis Friend · 03-01-2021 9:01pm

Will the schools reopen on the 11th?!

Irishphotodesk · 03-01-2021 9:18pm

Louis Friend wrote: »

Will the schools reopen on the 11th?!

More than likely ...no

Bobtheman · 03-01-2021 9:26pm

KaneToad wrote: »

Why would she be more qualified than the current incumbent?

She wouldn't be. But nowadays it's all about optics. Lisa Chambers = female. I agree with gender quotas for Dail elections but not for the cabinet. It can be hard enough to get 15 capable people from a government of between 80-90 seats without further complicating it by saying you have people from all four provinces and have to have so many females.

Government flip flops / school closures

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