Ulster Team Talk Thread IV... Go On My Henderson...

Paul Smeenus · 06-01-2021 12:41pm

I noticed IBF mentioned "historical rugby schools", and that's about the only term you could use to cover the grammar schools up here and the private schools down South. We don't have private, fee-paying schools in the same way.

I know Leinster supporters are drawing an equivalency based on the cultures, and while that's a bit simplistic (it discounts the strong "school > go and study across the water" culture of Northern rugby-playing grammar schools that sees us lose a decent amount of talent), I get it.

But there is no equivalency in terms of the money these schools have at their disposal. And the money matters. It wasn't long ago Inst - one of NI's rugby "big boys" - had to sell a large swathe of their pitches on the Malone Road. And there is simply no comparison on the fees with pretty much any of the big Leinster schools and any other school up here other than Campbell (and then Campbells' would be significantly less.)

And I think EOS proves the opposite of what some of you Leister lads are making out - Leinster club player, can't get a crack down South, comes North and ends up capped. How does that prove that anything positive about Leinster's relationships with clubs? But to be honest, I don't want to prolong endless waffle about club/schools relationships with the provinces. Ulster's is improving but it isn't good - nothing to be proud of. And it feels to me that we've picked over it endlessly on these threads.

Former Former Former · 06-01-2021 12:46pm

This is all fair debate. I just don't understand why Dan felt the need to bring it up completely out of the blue. If I had to guess, I'd say the question was tongue-in-cheek, I can't imagine anyone seriously asking that question as a genuine inquiry into McFarland's sympathy for Leo. I'd say the journo was probably taken aback (and delighted) by the answer he got.

You know who went to a 'proper' private school with extortionate fees? Dan McFarland, just like his father before him.

Paul Smeenus · 06-01-2021 12:50pm

Former Former Former wrote: »

You know who went to a 'proper' private school with extortionate fees? Dan McFarland, just like his father before him.

Bloody rich folk.

molloyjh · 06-01-2021 12:54pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

I noticed IBF mentioned "historical rugby schools", and that's about the only term you could use to cover the grammar schools up here and the private schools down South. We don't have private, fee-paying schools in the same way.

I know Leinster supporters are drawing an equivalency based on the cultures, and while that's a bit simplistic (it discounts the strong "school > go and study across the water" culture of Northern rugby-playing grammar schools that sees us lose a decent amount of talent), I get it.

But there is no equivalency in terms of the money these schools have at their disposal. And the money matters. It wasn't long ago Inst - one of NI's rugby "big boys" - had to sell a large swathe of their pitches on the Malone Road. And there is simply no comparison on the fees with pretty much any of the big Leinster schools and any other school up here other than Campbell (and then Campbells' would be significantly less.)

And I think EOS proves the opposite of what some of you Leister lads are making out - Leinster club player, can't get a crack down South, comes North and ends up capped. How does that prove that anything positive about Leinster's relationships with clubs? But to be honest, I don't want to prolong endless waffle about club/schools relationships with the provinces. Ulster's is improving but it isn't good - nothing to be proud of. And it feels to me that we've picked over it endlessly on these threads.

EOS didn't get a crack because others were rated ahead of him, not because of where he is from. He was behind guys like Ed Byrne and Dooley, the latter of which wasn't from a traditional background at all. If anything he was from a less traditional background than EOS.

The point re money is 100% fair. And if that was the point McFarland made then grand. But it wasn't. He was talking about rich families too. And given the way in which Leinster have made strong, concerted and successful efforts to go beyond the traditional rugby areas to develop their talent and Ulster haven't (I've heard far too many stories of guys not getting a look in because of where they are from) its a strange point to be making really.

The only reason for it that I can see is to get guys like EOS or AOC more up for the game. He shouldn't need that though. And playing it out in the press like that is very Eddie Jones-esque. That said, he may not have meant anything at all by it and just phrased his point badly.

irishbucsfan · 06-01-2021 12:54pm

launish116 wrote: »

McCloskey? He was club background wasn’t he?

Out of curiosity when we say fee paying school? We talking thousands per term? Or we talking the old compulsory voluntary grammar school top up of several hundred Pounds a year.

I don’t think it matters. Surely the main driver is how much is getting invested into the rugby program?

There are very very expensive schools in Dublin who are fairly poor most years. Kings Hospital, St Andrews etc

Meanwhile there are schools OUTSIDE DUBLIN, believe it or not, who are actually quite good because they’ve made the objectively correct decision to divert that money away from academics into rugby.

thomond2006 · 06-01-2021 12:55pm

Calling people rich really is the worst of all insults.

Paul Smeenus · 06-01-2021 12:59pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I don’t think it matters. Surely the main driver is how much is getting invested into the rugby program?

There are very very expensive schools in Dublin who are fairly poor most years. Kings Hospital, St Andrews etc

Meanwhile there are schools OUTSIDE DUBLIN, believe it or not, who are actually quite good because they’ve made the objectively correct decision to divert that money away from academics into rugby.

Ah that's a bit disingenuous. It really, really does matter.

I mean, I completely agree about money being invested into the rugby program, but the very first question in determining that is "how much money does the school have?"

irishbucsfan · 06-01-2021 1:03pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Ah that's a bit disingenuous. It really, really does matter.

I mean, I completely agree about money being invested into the rugby program, but the very first question in determining that is "how much money does the school have?"

The school could have absolutely no money, but a lot of resources available for their rugby program. Money from ex pupils and parents, professional coaching from local clubs trying to use the school as a source for players etc.

molloyjh · 06-01-2021 1:06pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

Calling people rich really is the worst of all insults.

I look forward to crowds returning to games so we can face the inevitable "You're rich and you know you are" chants from our poor Ulster brethren. :pac:

Paul Smeenus · 06-01-2021 1:09pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The school could have absolutely no money, but a lot of resources available for their rugby program. Money from ex pupils and parents, professional coaching from local clubs trying to use the school as a source for players etc.

And is that true of any big-producing schools? They don't charge big fees, they don't have much money, but they have fantastic facilities and coaching due to money from ex-pupils or parents?

I mean, yes, in terms of following logic you're correct. That would be theoretically possible. Is there a single instance of this, though?

irishbucsfan · 06-01-2021 1:11pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

And I think EOS proves the opposite of what some of you Leister lads are making out - Leinster club player, can't get a crack down South, comes North and ends up capped. How does that prove that anything positive about Leinster's relationships with clubs? But to be honest, I don't want to prolong endless waffle about club/schools relationships with the provinces. Ulster's is improving but it isn't good - nothing to be proud of. And it feels to me that we've picked over it endlessly on these threads.

EOS is not a Leinster clubs player.

He proves nothing about Leinster’s relationship with the clubs.

Anyone in Ulster criticising Leinster’s relationship with the clubs is being naive or hypocritical

Paul Smeenus · 06-01-2021 1:13pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

EOS is not a Leinster clubs player.

He proves nothing about Leinster’s relationship with the clubs.

Anyone in Ulster criticising Leinster’s relationship with the clubs is being naive or hypocritical

No-one is. Leinster posters brought up clubs.

Not one single poster thinks Ulster have nearly a good a relationship with their clubs. People are just responding to some of the myriad of points that have been brought up.

irishbucsfan · 06-01-2021 1:18pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

And is that true of any big-producing schools? They don't charge big fees, they don't have much money, but they have fantastic facilities and coaching due to money from ex-pupils or parents?

I mean, yes, in terms of following logic you're correct. That would be theoretically possible. Is there a single instance of this, though?

I don’t know anything about where the money for blackrock or Michael’s rugby program comes from. Could be all fees, sure.

I’m not saying they aren’t. Do Ulster schools like Methodist have teachers coaching their teams still?

Paul Smeenus · 06-01-2021 1:20pm

"While the numbers have swelled in keeping with the school’s expansion, like most private schools in south Dublin, the fees are eye-watering – €6,500 for primary school and €5,800 for secondary school...

The St Michael’s gym was built in 2001 and has been upgraded along the way, with similar equipment to the Leinster gym if not on the same scale, and the school have enlisted top-end strength and conditioning coaches Fiona Oppermann, the former Irish athlete; Junior Charlie, the New Zealander and ex-Connacht flanker; Andy Burke, the ex-Munster outhalf; and, currently, James Ruxton, a former Irish 400 metre runner.

Likewise rugby coaches – Greg McWilliams and Mark McDermott (who coached the 2007 Senior Cup winners), Kelvin Leahy and Bernard Jackman (who coached the 2012 winners), and others...

"Andy turned it into a way more professional set-up.

It’s almost like an academy set-up. The strength and conditioning programme was being introduced when I was there, but it’s way more advanced now. So when they do leave and join the Leinster academy, they’re very comfortable in that set-up. They do their video analysis of all the games. They’re almost professionals when they’re leaving school.”

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/st-michael-s-conveyor-belt-showing-no-signs-of-slowing-down-1.4143124

That's an amazing, enviable set-up. No wonder they're doing so well. Well run, well planned and - crucially - well funded.

But if you think any academic institution in NI has the money to be able to replicate anything even in the ball park of that, you're wrong. No matter how much they might prioritise the rugby program.

I understand that some Leinster supporters might take exception to Dan's comments. Feel they're hurtful or crass.

But the "ah, Ulster are the same" argument is, as Stevie Ferris would say, "ballicks".

irishbucsfan · 06-01-2021 1:20pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

No-one is. Leinster posters brought up clubs.

Not one single poster thinks Ulster have nearly a good a relationship with their clubs. People are just responding to some of the myriad of points that have been brought up.

You said he is a club player and then you asked how it proves anything positive about the relationship with the clubs.

Paul Smeenus · 06-01-2021 1:32pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

You said he is a club player and then you asked how it proves anything positive about the relationship with the clubs.

Read back a few posts before that. I didn't bring him up.

You asked "When was the last time Ulster had a club player capped by Ireland?"

Awec responded, honestly, with EOS' name. He was headhunted by Kieran Campbell off the back of his performances for Trinity College, having missed out on the Leinster Academy. Awec clearly considers him was a club player, which should be fair enough?

Then molloy chipped in with "Bahahaha, using a Dublin born and bred player to say that Ulster bring guys through their club system. Thats gas."

Literally nobody said that. Awec answered a straightforward question, and the Leinster fans went cock-a-hoop.

irishbucsfan · 06-01-2021 1:35pm

Absolutely no one said there is a school in Ulster like Michael’s.

And no one said they aren’t very very well resourced.

Ulster are dependent on schools rugby, and there are absolutely rich families involved there. Just because you’re not in the club doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. I’m not in the club either, but we still have to sit around the same table.

If Ulster rugby are lucky, maybe they’ll get the same level of investment into a school some day. Maybe when Rory McIlroy pops his clogs he’ll leave a few million to Sullivan Upper! Then the reliance will have paid off. No doubt Leinster are exceptionally lucky that’s the case down here.

connemara man · 06-01-2021 1:37pm

This isn't a pre interpro windup that Venjur has organised with Dan by any chance

Real life imitating art imitating real life

irishbucsfan · 06-01-2021 1:37pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Read back a few posts before that. I didn't bring him up.

You asked "When was the last time Ulster had a club player capped by Ireland?"

Awec responded, honestly, with EOS' name. He was headhunted by Kieran Campbell off the back of his performances for Trinity College, having missed out on the Leinster Academy. Awec clearly considers him was a club player, which should be fair enough?

Then molloy chipped in with "Bahahaha, using a Dublin born and bred player to say that Ulster bring guys through their club system. Thats gas."

Literally nobody said that. Awec answered a straightforward question, and the Leinster fans went cock-a-hoop.

EOS is not a clubs player. He played for Leinster schools, not Leinster youths.

You were the one who said he was an example. He very clearly is not.

Still waiting on an example of a clubs player from Ulster rugby!

Paul Smeenus · 06-01-2021 1:40pm

So if you're playing for a club, and you get a chance form a province, you aren't a club player if you previously played Leinster Schools rugby?

I'm not being argumentative - I'm genuinely asking if that's how you define these things?

launish116 · 06-01-2021 1:41pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Still waiting on an example of a clubs player from Ulster rugby!

McCloskey

Paul Smeenus · 06-01-2021 1:42pm

Do you define a clubs player as someone who only played at clubs, and didn't go to a rich rugby school? Are they a club player if they went to the Academy?

Paul Smeenus · 06-01-2021 1:46pm

launish116 wrote: »

McCloskey

The most recent Ulster clubs player is obviously Bradley Roberts who had his debut before Christmas, before that Mattie Rea. Both came straight into pro set-up from their clubs - Rainey and Ballymena respectively.

Only a drop in the ocean, but an improvement on a few years ago.

launish116 · 06-01-2021 1:50pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

The most recent Ulster clubs player is obviously Bradley Roberts who had his debut before Christmas, before that Mattie Rea. Both came straight into pro set-up from their clubs - Rainey and Ballymena respectively.

Only a drop in the ocean, but an improvement on a few years ago.

Aye, though he’s the only one has been internationally capped I can mind recently?

Warwick came from club also?

sydthebeat · 06-01-2021 1:53pm

launish116 wrote: »

McCloskey

mcclosky not go to the same rugby school as mark mccall?

irishbucsfan · 06-01-2021 2:00pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

So if you're playing for a club, and you get a chance form a province, you aren't a club player if you previously played Leinster Schools rugby?

I'm not being argumentative - I'm genuinely asking if that's how you define these things?

Yes that’s how we’d define it.

Schools players go and play for AIL clubs when they leave school. But they came through the Leinster schools underage teams.

Then you have guys like Shane Horgan who came through Leinster youths. I use him as an example because he had a youths competition named after him, such is the rarity it used to happen.

Now we have lots of examples of guys who came through that way. Dooley is a good example because you could argue he kept EOS out.

We’d consider Jamie Heaslip a schools player. Went to Newbridge but didn’t really get recognised until he showed his quality in the AIL for Trinity after playing for Naas from a very young age. He may consider himself a clubs player with Naas more than a schools player with Newbridge but there’s no doubt he went to a rugby school and that’s how we classify it generally.

launish116 · 06-01-2021 2:02pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

mcclosky not go to the same rugby school as mark mccall?

Didn’t he come from Bangor RFC, wasn’t picked up after school or attend academy?

sydthebeat · 06-01-2021 2:13pm

launish116 wrote: »

Didn’t he come from Bangor RFC, wasn’t picked up after school or attend academy?

dungannon RFC... and he did a year sub academy followed by a year academy, followed by a 2 year development contract before getting a full contract with ulster

but has was a scrum half / outhalf in Bangor grammer whilst in school.

im just making the point that purporting mcclosky as a player who came through the club system and not the schools system isnt exactly the best example.

i mean, hes no sean o brien or tadgh furlong.

The Lost Sheep · 06-01-2021 2:19pm

Former Former Former wrote: »

Bit of a dick comment IMO. Like, why not just say that Leinster have loads of players and a conveyor belt of new ones, why bring up how rich their families are?

Where does he think Murphy, Cooney and McGrath came from? Is he unaware that most of the Ulster native players come from the swankier part of town too?

Not a dick comment at all.
Its spot on. Leinster have resources many times greater than the other provinces.

Former Former Former wrote: »

He didn't need to big anyone up.

Nor did he need to be an absolute cock about it. Yes, a cock.

The journalist asked the stupid question, the correct response was"that's a stupid question, next "

He wasnt at all. It was a stupid question and deserved that answer.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Ulster rugby is just as much the preserve of historical rugby schools and the old boys clubs that surround them as Leinster is. The only problem is that Leinster are better at it. McFarland is just crying about that.

At least when someone like Joey Carberry emerges in a non-traditional area of Leinster, he has a chance of getting invited into the club. And Leinster youths is way way better at bringing guys through from non-traditional areas than Ulster are.

I’d love it if the whole thing could be blown up and started again in both provinces. But it’s hilarious that anyone in Ulster could think they’re in a place to take a shot at Leinster’s reliance on the schools system.

It was a stupid question. McFarland used a stupid question to create a bit of controversy and build a bit of interest in the game, fair play to him. Just the bit about schools is fairly hypocritical on its own merits.

Ulster is as much a preserve as Leinster of historical rugby schools and clubs that surround them except the fee's in Ulster are not a real barrier to many people attending these schools unlike Leinster/Dublin.

launish116 wrote: »

Apples & oranges surely.

Big difference from Belfast big schools dominating school rugby in Ulster and Leinster schools recruiting players specifically for rugby glory. Maybe I’m being naive but surely large fee paying school offering bursaries to players from non traditional areas is more the School priorities than offering opportunities to the player. If that is common practice in Ulster do inform me.

To be fair Ulsters schools recruit players specifically for rugby glory as well. Plenty of examples of that happening in Ulster with the big 3 in Belfast all having had top rugby players move to them for their final year or two in school having progressed first in youths rugby or a smaller rugby school

bayern wrote: »

It happened with Blackrock and Roscrea in Leinster until they brought in rules to prevent it, Conor Oliver, the Wycherley brothers, Carbery, Loughman all current pros where that occured. Probably others i'm forgetting. To say most leinster schools do it would be incorrect.

off the top of my head, Chris Farrell & Tom O'Toole were brought into Campbell, Stewart Moore to Ballymena.

Clongowes and few others all do it as well.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

You can say something that is true and be controversial. Especially when you’re being hypocritical.

It’s especially controversial when you’re talking about a head coach who it absolutely applies to!

I’d love to know who Ulsters equivalent to Shane Horgan, Tadgh Furlong or Sean O’Brien is?

When was the last time Ulster had a club player capped by Ireland?

Ferris? Played Ulster and Irish Youths. Portadown age grade sides. won award for Ulster clubs u18 player of the year https://www.ulsterrugby.com/2003/05/guinness-ulster-branch-awards-dinner/

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I don’t know anything about where the money for blackrock or Michael’s rugby program comes from. Could be all fees, sure.

I’m not saying they aren’t. Do Ulster schools like Methodist have teachers coaching their teams still?

Parents, past pupils.
Most ulster schools still mainly have teachers coaching teams

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Do you define a clubs player as someone who only played at clubs, and didn't go to a rich rugby school? Are they a club player if they went to the Academy?

It doesnt have to be a rich rugby school.

Paul Smeenus · 06-01-2021 2:21pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yes that’s how we’d define it.

Schools players go and play for AIL clubs when they leave school. But they came through the Leinster schools underage teams.

Then you have guys like Shane Horgan who came through Leinster youths. I use him as an example because he had a youths competition named after him, such is the rarity it used to happen.

Now we have lots of examples of guys who came through that way. Dooley is a good example because you could argue he kept EOS out.

We’d consider Jamie Heaslip a schools player. Went to Newbridge but didn’t really get recognised until he showed his quality in the AIL for Trinity after playing for Naas from a very young age. He may consider himself a clubs player with Naas more than a schools player with Newbridge but there’s no doubt he went to a rugby school and that’s how we classify it generally.

Cheers for that. I wouldn't be so quick to give schools so much credit myself, but I hadn't realised that you used terminology in such a precise agreed manner.

Ulster Team Talk Thread IV... Go On My Henderson...

Comments