Ulster Team Talk Thread IV... Go On My Henderson...

launish116

sydthebeat wrote: »

dungannon RFC... and he did a year sub academy followed by a year academy, followed by a 2 year development contract before getting a full contract with ulster

but has was a scrum half / outhalf in Bangor grammer whilst in school.

im just making the point that purporting mcclosky as a player who came through the club system and not the schools system isnt exactly the best example.

i mean, hes no sean o brien or tadgh furlong.

Didn’t realise that! Was trying to think of an international capped player who didn’t do the whole schools cup, academy , senior contract route. McCloskey is the only unorthodox one I can think of.

Though being under valued internationally doesnt mean he isn’t as important to Ulster as the likes of a Furlong or O’Brien have been for Leinster.

bayern

Ben Moxham is an example of a ulster club player.

As is Adam McBurney.

Aaron Hall & Joe Dunleavy were also.

irishbucsfan

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Cheers for that. I wouldn't be so quick to give schools so much credit myself, but I hadn't realised that you used terminology in such a precise agreed manner.

It’s not that it’s agreed. There are two completely separate pathways for young players.

Youths for club players, Schools for school players. The level of investment and opportunity afforded to the two sides is fairly contentious

sydthebeat

launish116 wrote: »

Though being under valued internationally doesnt mean he isn’t as important to Ulster as the likes of a Furlong or O’Brien have been for Leinster.

100% agreed

launish116

bayern wrote: »

Ben Moxham is an example of a ulster club player.

As is Adam McBurney.

Aaron Hall & Joe Dunleavy were also.

They all played U20 for Ireland though, so weren’t exactly being ignored and came straight from a club.

Would Rea snr/Warwick/Roberts etc be the only ones recently who really missed u20/academy and progressed on club form to Ulster?

Think we have 3 categories:

School form > academy
Club form > academy
Club form > development contract (late bloomers).

sydthebeat

launish116 wrote: »

Didn’t realise that! Was trying to think of an international capped player who didn’t do the whole schools cup, academy , senior contract route. McCloskey is the only unorthodox one I can think of.

Though being under valued internationally doesnt mean he isn’t as important to Ulster as the likes of a Furlong or O’Brien have been for Leinster.

a lot of non-leinster players do club time after schools before entering provincial academies. Luke Marshall is another example of school - club - academy.

Leinster schools just seems to have the systems that produces closes to pro14 level players straight out of school.

bayern

Robert is south african.. he came to ulster club rugby from SA.

Rea played ulster schools, ulster u19 and u20 but didn't make academy, Warwick the same.

bayern

sydthebeat wrote: »

a lot of non-leinster players do club time after schools before entering provincial academies. Luke Marshall is another example of school - club - academy.

Leinster schools just seems to have the systems that produces closes to pro14 level players straight out of school.

there is very few leinster schools players who don't play at least one season of AIL.

Paul Smeenus

Robert Baloucoune "was turning out for Enniskillen RFC at Ulster Rugby HQ in the Towns Cup final in April 2017."

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/rugby/ulster-rugby/all-you-need-to-know-about-robert-baloucoune-ahead-of-enniskillen-mans-ulster-debut-37459451.html

If he comes back as physically able as he was, I'd say he's next international to come through club (and 7s).

bilston

sydthebeat wrote: »

mcclosky not go to the same rugby school as mark mccall?

He did

bilston

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Robert Baloucoune "was turning out for Enniskillen RFC at Ulster Rugby HQ in the Towns Cup final in April 2017."

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/rugby/ulster-rugby/all-you-need-to-know-about-robert-baloucoune-ahead-of-enniskillen-mans-ulster-debut-37459451.html

If he comes back as physically able as he was, I'd say he's next international to come through club (and 7s).

He probably went to Portora (or whatever its called these days).

It is a problem in Ulster, look at the Ireland Youth team every year, there are barely any Ulster club players involved.

Club rugby in Ulster is quite poor compared to Leinster and Munster, and given he resources it also compares poorly.to Connacht.

The frustrating thing is there is so much growth potential in Ulster rugby when you consider youth club rugby and on a different subject there is the possibility of expanding into Catholic schools as well. Plenty of Catholics take up rugby after school at clubs in Ulster, but by the time they are 18 or 19 you really aren't likely to turn them into a professional. The Branch needs to do more to get into Catholic schools...there may be a bit of resistance to that I suppose from some sectors but you have to battle against that if NI is ever going to move on.

bilston

sydthebeat wrote: »

a lot of non-leinster players do club time after schools before entering provincial academies. Luke Marshall is another example of school - club - academy.

Leinster schools just seems to have the systems that produces closes to pro14 level players straight out of school.

Marshall did play for Ballymena for a year or two after school, but he was touted as a future Ulster player from about the age of 17. I certainly remember him as a schoolboy. So while he did play club rugby for a bit (like pretty much every professional player in Ireland) he was very much a school product in my head.

Ferris might have been more of a product of the club game, but even then he went to Friends, not a big rugby school at all, but still a Grammar school where rugby is probably the main sport.

bayern

Baloucoune another example of a club player.

The Lost Sheep

bilston wrote: »

He probably went to Portora (or whatever its called these days).

It is a problem in Ulster, look at the Ireland Youth team every year, there are barely any Ulster club players involved.

Club rugby in Ulster is quite poor compared to Leinster and Munster, and given he resources it also compares poorly.to Connacht.

The frustrating thing is there is so much growth potential in Ulster rugby when you consider youth club rugby and on a different subject there is the possibility of expanding into Catholic schools as well. Plenty of Catholics take up rugby after school at clubs in Ulster, but by the time they are 18 or 19 you really aren't likely to turn them into a professional. The Branch needs to do more to get into Catholic schools...there may be a bit of resistance to that I suppose from some sectors but you have to battle against that if NI is ever going to move on.

Dont think expanding into catholic schools in terms of them playing high level of schools rugby is the answer unless you were to group some of them together by county/region and get them playing in the schools competition ala Munster have done the past few years. Just work more on building the clubs competition within Ulster. Go into the schools and do the intro to rugby sessions and work very hard on getting kids into the clubs to play u14/16/18s

bilston wrote: »

Marshall did play for Ballymena for a year or two after school, but he was touted as a future Ulster player from about the age of 17. I certainly remember him as a schoolboy. So while he did play club rugby for a bit (like pretty much every professional player in Ireland) he was very much a school product in my head.

Ferris might have been more of a product of the club game, but even then he went to Friends, not a big rugby school at all, but still a Grammar school where rugby is probably the main sport.

Ferris played Ulster and Ireland under 18 clubs and was playing club rugby with Portadown.
Played same irish 18s clubs side as english international shane geraghty, john muldoons brother ivan and there were couple of others who turned pro.

Paul Smeenus

So Moxham last out-and-out clubs player to be capped for Ulster; Baloucoune looks like the most likely next one to be capped by Ireland.

RuPi

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

So Moxham last out-and-out clubs player to be capped for Ulster; Baloucoune looks like the most likely next one to be capped by Ireland.

Does one season at a club mean you are a clubs player? If so then every player in the system would be a clubs player once they break into the senior squad.

Robert’s season at Enniskillen was whilst he was still completing exams at school and by that stage was already part of the 7’s programme and attending camps at weekends in Dublin. Season after finishing at school he was straight into the 7’s programme full time. I do agree he will be capped by Ireland but it certainly wasn’t a case of he didn’t get an academy place and wasn’t on the radar.

To me Moxham and McBurney are club players who have come through youth rugby.

Every province has their own challenges and it is hard to compare them, Munster only have 9 or 10 rugby schools whilst Ulster has 32 or so, means the system and needs below sub academy in both provinces will be different.

Paul Smeenus

RuPi wrote: »

Does one season at a club mean you are a clubs player? If so then every player in the system would be a clubs player once they break into the senior squad.

Robert’s season at Enniskillen was whilst he was still completing exams at school and by that stage was already part of the 7’s programme and attending camps at weekends in Dublin. Season after finishing at school he was straight into the 7’s programme full time. I do agree he will be capped by Ireland but it certainly wasn’t a case of he didn’t get an academy place and wasn’t on the radar.

To me Moxham and McBurney are club players who have come through youth rugby.

Every province has their own challenges and it is hard to compare them, Munster only have 9 or 10 rugby schools whilst Ulster has 32 or so, means the system and needs below sub academy in both provinces will be different.

Bobby's certainly not schools, which is the distinction. He could be a third path - 7s. Don't think he played for any underage 15s team.

Ulster does not have 32 "rugby schools". That's waaaay off. It might have 32 that offer rugby as part of games, but that does not make a rugby school.

awec

Ulster may have 32 schools that play rugby but the majority of these are far from serious outfits.

My own school was technically a rugby school, entered the schools cup etc, but the only people who played rugby were those who didn't already have soccer commitments.

RuPi

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Bobby's certainly not schools, which is the distinction. He could be a third path - 7s. Don't think he played for any underage 15s team.

Ulster does not have 32 "rugby schools". That's waaaay off. It might have 32 that offer rugby as part of games, but that does not make a rugby school.

Played Ulster Under 19’s whilst at school, Marcus Rea captained the side.

Paul Smeenus

Hmm. Reading further, he then dropped out, and then got back into it via Enniskillen RFC.

I'm not going to sweat it. He's a player from outside the heartlands, that has come through via a circuitous route. He's not from some rugby hothouse, so it's all good.

The Lost Sheep

RuPi wrote: »

Does one season at a club mean you are a clubs player? If so then every player in the system would be a clubs player once they break into the senior squad.

Robert’s season at Enniskillen was whilst he was still completing exams at school and by that stage was already part of the 7’s programme and attending camps at weekends in Dublin. Season after finishing at school he was straight into the 7’s programme full time. I do agree he will be capped by Ireland but it certainly wasn’t a case of he didn’t get an academy place and wasn’t on the radar.

To me Moxham and McBurney are club players who have come through youth rugby.

Every province has their own challenges and it is hard to compare them, Munster only have 9 or 10 rugby schools whilst Ulster has 32 or so, means the system and needs below sub academy in both provinces will be different.

Munsters problem isnt that there is so few rugby schools but how players are viewed and assessed outside of these schools. All too often if kids not in a rugby school are not seen/sent into the Munster youths set up and the development systems below that starting at 15/16 then they wont be seen at all. The Munster clubs competitions have expanded hugely the past decade and have helped close the gap but its taking time to bring more players from new areas. But the numbers coming from West Cork, Waterford show its working. Just need to maintain that and get more from Clare(with way Ennis are going at under 15-18s that will be seen enough), Tipp and Kerry.

awec wrote: »

Ulster may have 32 schools that play rugby but the majority of these are far from serious outfits.

My own school was technically a rugby school, entered the schools cup etc, but the only people who played rugby were those who didn't already have soccer commitments.

What do you define as serious outfits though?

Paul Smeenus

Can't speak for Awec, but I can't believe that there are 32 schools where rugby is the most popular sport. Two of my kids to to a good, local Belfast grammar school, and while rugby is offered, football is much more popular.

There have only been seventeen schools to win the Ulster Schools Cup. Not all of them would be serious outfits.

launish116

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

I'm not going to sweat it. He's a player from outside the heartlands, that has come through via a circuitous route. He's not from some rugby hothouse, so it's all good.

Think the “heartlands” has been the biggest problem, along with the old boys club in the past. Definitely has been an emphasis of changing that. Player identification has broadened from same old grammar schools. As ****e as the academy has been in the past, think Ulster could probably be awarded a little credit for broadening their horizons within intake/identification.

Realistically the disconnect from senior school rugby into club rugby, will always be a massive issue and something Ulster rugby will never resolve. Especially when you factor in Universities etc. Throw in lack of AIL club rugby.

We’re heading in right direction, just not getting there in any hurry.

The Lost Sheep

launish116 wrote: »

Think the “heartlands” has been the biggest problem, along with the old boys club in the past. Definitely has been an emphasis of changing that. Player identification has broadened from same old grammar schools. As ****e as the academy has been in the past, think Ulster could probably be awarded a little credit for broadening their horizons within intake/identification.

Realistically the disconnect from senior school rugby into club rugby, will always be a massive issue and something Ulster rugby will never resolve. Especially when you factor in Universities etc. Throw in lack of AIL club rugby.

We’re heading in right direction, just not getting there in any hurry.

Heartlands has been an issue but that means you have to change/expand. Just look at Munster and numbers not coming through from Limerick City but its not as much an issue as Waterford, West Cork, Tipp have all been producing more. It does take long time but as you say its going in right direction
While in some ways i like how Ulster doesnt really do much under 20 club rugby maybe that needs to change to help keep more recent school finishers playing together. Even a shortened season before players move on to clubs 1st XV/2nd/3rds etc

bilston

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Can't speak for Awec, but I can't believe that there are 32 schools where rugby is the most popular sport. Two of my kids to to a good, local Belfast grammar school, and while rugby is offered, football is much more popular.

There have only been seventeen schools to win the Ulster Schools Cup. Not all of them would be serious outfits.

Big 3 (generous to Campbell to be fair)
Inst
Methody
Campbell

Best of the rest who can compete in any given year
Ballymena Academy
Wallace
RS Armagh
BRA

Everyone else...

I think Ballyclare HS had a decent team a few years ago...of course given Soper was their coach before he went to Inst is probably evidence that the best coached sides are the best at schools level, not necessarily the most talented.

The 2015-2017 Inst team was an absolute freak in that it was a combination of both.

Anyway, that's 7 major rugby schools in my eyes. Although other schools have their moments.

Paul Smeenus

Was going to flag up the aforementioned Bangor Grammar, googled the Schools Cup and they were last in a final - which they lost - 26 years ago.

irishbucsfan

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Can't speak for Awec, but I can't believe that there are 32 schools where rugby is the most popular sport. Two of my kids to to a good, local Belfast grammar school, and while rugby is offered, football is much more popular.

There have only been seventeen schools to win the Ulster Schools Cup. Not all of them would be serious outfits.

That's almost the exact same as Leinster. 17 winners, some of which haven't been contenders for decades.

It's not that Leinster is overflowing with 10 or 12 amazing rugby schools (despite what McFarland claims), its that there are one or two who are absolutely dominant and produce players consistently.

mfceiling

There are a limited amount of "good" rugby schools in Ulster and a lot where rugby is "offered".

When I played in school there were 18 schools to play against....I know this because we won our entire 17 games one season under the tutelage of David McMaster who went on to coach Ulster.

The money just isn't the same in Northern Ireland be it in schools, wages or clubs to the same extent as in Leinster. I worked a few days in Michaels and was genuinely blown away by the money invested there. No school in Ulster has that kind of clout or parents with wealth remotely close to that.

Our school was the Royal in Dungannon and we had a few Ulster lads at my time there. Paddy Johns, Robin Morrow and a couple of others got a game or 2.

In recent times the only player that has come through the school was Peter Nelson.

Ferris was an interesting one. He didn't really go to a strong rugby school but went to Dungannon where he pretty much got man of the match every single week (seriously) and was impossible to ignore after that!!

bilston

mfceiling wrote: »

There are a limited amount of "good" rugby schools in Ulster and a lot where rugby is "offered".

When I played in school there were 18 schools to play against....I know this because we won our entire 17 games one season under the tutelage of David McMaster who went on to coach Ulster.

The money just isn't the same in Northern Ireland be it in schools, wages or clubs to the same extent as in Leinster. I worked a few days in Michaels and was genuinely blown away by the money invested there. No school in Ulster has that kind of clout or parents with wealth remotely close to that.

Our school was the Royal in Dungannon and we had a few Ulster lads at my time there. Paddy Johns, Robin Morrow and a couple of others got a game or 2.

In recent times the only player that has come through the school was Peter Nelson.

Ferris was an interesting one. He didn't really go to a strong rugby school but went to Dungannon where he pretty much got man of the match every single week (seriously) and was impossible to ignore after that!!

Dungannon were a good side in my day, they don't seem to be as big a factor nowadays.

The Lost Sheep

bilston wrote: »

Dungannon were a good side in my day, they don't seem to be as big a factor nowadays.

They have dropped considerably from 12/13 season on. 11/12 they finished 3rd in 1B then it was 8th 1B, 10th 1B by a mile, 14th in 2A nearly going straight down to 2B, the league rescheduled and to all divisions as 10 teams and they were in 2B in that and in 5 seasons have always been in bottom half of division
Ive seen them play a few times in that time period and they just dont attract as many of the best players any more and not sure what else is up with them