Go-Ahead Dublin City Routes - Updates and Discussion

dfx- · 12-09-2018 8:44am

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

It still seems nuts to me that Dublin Bus are disposing of what are apparently still perfectly serviceable vehicles (the AV's) that are still in daily use elsewhere, and replacing them with inferior rubbish (IMO anyway) at taxpayer expense.

There's one argument about the pollution levels that can't be argued. The other stuff about attracting people out of cars or their smell or ventilation isn't a thing. Never mind losing the VTs

There's hundreds of them, possibly thousands in the UK. I've a wide selection of 18 year old buses to get home each day. The DB buses are all in better state and have bench seats too.

Probably a hangover from the state of the KDs when they were the same age that an arbitrary 'replacement cycle' was put in place of twelve-ish years..

devnull · 12-09-2018 8:48am

dfx- wrote: »

There's hundreds of them, possibly thousands in the UK. I've a wide selection of 18 year old buses to get home each day. The DB buses are all in better state and have bench seats too.

Show someone who hasn't used a bus for a while an AV and the inside of it and they'll think of all the negative perceptions of the past and stick with their car, because quite frankly it looks similar to what it did 20 years ago inside. I know people have been attracted out of cars by the new vehicles because my friends and colleagues are some of the people who have done it.

What newer buses are doing is showing people who would never use a bus that things have changed and they have personal space, Wifi, USB sockets, brighter interiors, passenger information etc. And getting people to shift from cars is vital to stop gridlock in our city.

Appreciate that there are a group of people who feel different, but generally most of these are people who are using the bus, have to use the bus, or are enthusiasts, I know many I work with who have switched because the modernising of interiors because it makes them feel (rightly or wrongly) something changed.

It's true there are ALX400s still around in the UK, but I don't see any ex DB vehicles in the UK that work anything like the stressful duties that they would have done under DB, where they have a very short time between runs and can be on the route for 12 hours a dat at least.

Qrt · 12-09-2018 8:50am

devnull wrote: »

Show someone who hasn't used a bus for a while an AV and the inside of it and they'll think of all the negative perceptions of the past and stick with their car, because quite frankly it looks similar to what it did 20 years ago inside.

What newer buses are doing is showing people who would never use a bus that things have changed and they have personal space, Wifi, USB sockets, brighter interiors, passenger information etc. And getting people to shift from cars is vital to stop gridlock in our city.

Appreciate that there are a group of people who feel different, but generally these are people who are using the bus or have to use the bus, or are enthusiasts, I know many I work with who have switched because the modernising of interiors.

It's true there are ALX400s still around in the UK, but I don't see any ex DB vehicles in the UK that work anything like the stressful duties that they would have done under DB.

True about the interior. I always feel a bit queasy on the older buses. Not a fan.

Xterminator · 12-09-2018 9:36am

devnull wrote: »

Personally I believe the quality of service offered to the public is more important than anything else, I note that the poster making the point about privatisation seemed to be more concerned with the welfare of the staff, rather than the public of which the service is set up to serve. The public must always come first in any public service.

IMO that has been the greatest problem with Dublin Bus services in the last 20 years - they are not run for the convenience of the customers.

They think nothing of tossing all the passengers off to another bus when shifts are ending and they are nearing the end of the route, and dont always check there are enough seats free etc.

When a dublin bus arrives and the last service was late/didn't turn up my expereince is the driver doesn't care, if anyone asks they say things like 'not my fault' or 'nothing to do with me'.

This happened to me on a private bus route and the driver apologized to everyone he let on, without prompting. Because he recognised he is the face of the company he represents.

I don't care if the service is run by a semi state or private company, im not wedded to any particular ideology. Just offer a good service.

If go-ahead dont offer a decent rate of pay they wont be able to attract drivers, meet their obligations and they will be fined, and possibly lose their routes. That's what i like about the tendering process NTR use.

punisher5112 · 12-09-2018 9:39am

Stephen15 wrote: »

Not true if any current DB workers did have to switch over they would be entitled to a TUPE agreement whereby they will be entitled to the same T+Cs and pension as they are already getting.

Happens all the time in London Ile give a hypothetical example if Joe Bloggs drove the number 20 bus which is operated by Metroline and supposing Metroline lost the tender for that route to Arriva then Joe Bloggs would continue driving the number 20 bus with the same pay terms and conditions and pension he would get from Metroline. The same would apply if DB employees had to switch over to Go-Ahead or any other private operator. This is something you are entitled to under European law.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/contracts_of_employment/transfer_of_business.html

They only keep current employment conditions for 1 year.
They would then fall under a new contract with the new employer.

It is the start of low low wages and it's a joke to be honest.

GM228 · 12-09-2018 11:52am

punisher5112 wrote: »

They only keep current employment conditions for 1 year.
They would then fall under a new contract with the new employer

Totally incorrect, the terms remain for the term of employment unless they are changed with agreement through collective bargaining for example, but even in that case they can only be changed for the better, not to the detriment of the employee.

This is well established both in Ireland, the UK and the rest on the EU and held by every EU states national courts as well as the European Court of Justice.

AlekSmart · 12-09-2018 1:07pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

They only keep current employment conditions for 1 year.
They would then fall under a new contract with the new employer.

It is the start of low low wages and it's a joke to be honest.

The 1 year red herring constantly surfaces in relation to TUPE.

There is NO time limit on the maintenance of the transferree's Contractual Terms.

The is,however,provision for the alteration of such terms,by way of collective bargaining,or by the new employer being able to prove that the maintenance of such Conditions is counter to the Companies ability to function.

TUPE legislation is not a single A4 piece of paper,and has to be approached with caution by BOTH parties to it.

It may be prophetic,but Go Ahead has some relevant experience of similar occurences in it's,not dissimilar,Singapore Operation.

https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/go-aheads-bus-driver-shortage-does-not-breach-contract-terms-lta

Whilst noting the overwhelming sense of doom'n gloom surrounding the Dublin BMO process,I do not share it.

It is,not for the first time,useful to take note of what has happened,and is happening in Singapore,particularly in relation to Bus Drivers Wages,Terms & Conditions post Tendering.

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/sbs-transit-bumps-up-bus-captain-pay-enhances-benefits-7955764

SINGAPORE: From Wednesday (Jun 1), bus captains that join SBS Transit will be able to earn a gross monthly salary of up to S$3,460 within their first year, more than 15 per cent higher than before.

In a joint news release on Wednesday, SBS Transit and the the National Transport Workers Union (NTWU) said Singaporeans and Singapore Permanent Residents (PR) that join as bus captains will start at a monthly basic salary of S$1,950, which is S$175 more than the current S$1,775 starting salary. They will also receive a sign-on bonus of S$3,000.

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/smrt-raises-starting-pay-for-bus-captains-to-match-competitors-7890226

This comes on the heels of similar pay hikes by Singapore's two other public bus operators as competition for local bus captains intensifies. SBS Transit increased its starting salary from S$1,775 to S$1,950 in June while UK-based bus operator Go-Ahead increased its starting salary from the S$1,865 it announced in February to S$1,950 in July.

Interestingly,in this increasingly competitive Job market,the non-pay elements also are improving...

The public transport operator also announced a slew of other enhancements to its staff benefits, which will take effect between Sep 1 to Jan 1, 2017.

It will be raising the number of days of annual leave for SMRT Buses employees to up to 21 days, which is seven days more than currently offered, depending on their years of service. This is in addition to two days of eldercare leave.

All staff will be given free travel on all public bus and train networks throughout the year.

The company will also roll out an enhanced flexible benefits scheme - E-FLEX - for all of its Singaporean and PR bus captains. Under the scheme, bus captains will receive credits of between S$350 and S$1,050, depending on their years of service, which they can use to buy portable medical insurance through the Integrated Shield Plans and enjoy better medical coverage and ward eligibility if hospitalised.

With this new scheme, along with their existing MediShield Life and insurance riders provided by SMRT, Singaporean and PR staff will enjoy full hospitalisation coverage with no deductibles or co-payment for B2 wards at restructured hospitals.

The "new" operators,including Go-Ahead and Tower Transit are unable to ignore the prevailing market conditions,and are also competing for a largely static pool of suitably qualified Busdrivers...dare I say,just like here

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/tower-transit-raises-bus-drivers-basic-pay-to-more-than-s-2-000-9018788

SINGAPORE: Public bus operator Tower Transit Singapore said on Monday (Jul 10) it will raise the salaries of its bus drivers and other staff by 3.7 per cent – bumping up the basic pay for its new bus drivers to more than S$2,000 for the first time.

The annual wage increment will benefit more than 800 staff in Singapore, the UK-headquartered transport operator said.

ALL of this has occurred in the wake of the first tranche of Bus Market Tendering in Singapore.
This is not to suggest that Dublin's BMO process will result in the same outcome,BUT,the overall situation,particularly in relation to qualified Staff and the requirement for Bus Service expansion are significantly similar.

I would suggest that my colleagues spend less time listening to disgruntled UK Bus people,each one keen to relive the pre-deregulation days and instead focus on the present day,and events unfolding further afield,not all of which indicate the end of the World as we know it.

GM228 · 12-09-2018 1:39pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

The is,however,provision for the alteration of such terms,by way of collective bargaining,or by the new employer being able to prove that the maintenance of such Conditions is counter to the Companies ability to function.

That is something specific to the UK and not the rest of the EU when dealing with changing T&Cs.

It can be applied for economic, technical or organisational reasons and is known as the "ETO Defence", strictly speaking it is not in compliance with the TUPE Directive (2001/23/EC), that was never the intended use of the defence although the UK courts and EAT have upheld such defences.

In Ireland and the rest of the EU the ETO Defence applies only to dismissals which is in accordance with the Directive. A dismissal due to TUPE is automatically unfair unless the employer successfully raises the defence.

punisher5112 · 12-09-2018 2:01pm

I was told the union didn't sign off on it so deal is 1 year.

AlekSmart · 12-09-2018 2:08pm

GM228 wrote: »

That is something specific to the UK and not the rest of the EU when dealing with changing T&Cs.

It can be applied for economic, technical or organisational reasons and is known as the "ETO Defence", strictly speaking it is not in compliance with the TUPE Directive (2001/23/EC), that was never the intended use of the defence although the UK courts and EAT have upheld such defences.

In Ireland and the rest of the EU the ETO Defence applies only to dismissals which is in accordance with the Directive. A dismissal due to TUPE is automatically unfair unless the employer successfully raises the defence.

As of now,my understanding is that the ETO defence remains untested in the Irish environment.

As with all such legislation,it will be a work-in-progress and only set-in-stone when suitably proven in the Courts.

It is somewhat risky to portray TUPE,as an all encompassing protection guaranteeing a transferee's T's & C's in perpetutity.

It provides a good deal of protection,particularly in that fraught period at actual handover,however ALL Employment Contracts are subject to alteration as the employer/employee relationship changes.

Currently in the BAC-Go Ahead situation I see little sign that it will be utilized,as I believe that GAI will have to adapt their Employment Package before BAC do,assuming that is,the NTA remain hands-off in the process ?

Yggr of Asgard · 12-09-2018 2:25pm

I think that some posters casual racism (foreign companies are evil) might be motivated (and possible understandable) out of fear for their own position in a company that currently is providing services and might soon find that is cannot compete anymore due to cost structure or inflexibility of the workforce when it comes to new work practices.

For a person in the company obviously, its decent wages because there was no other option and the company had to pay what the workforce demanded as otherwise, they could not get the staff. However with competition in some form or another market rates adapt (not always down, sometimes even up as there is more demand for a qualified workforce) so there is fear.

Unless someone can correct me, nobody did get forced to join the new providers and it looks they are not having trouble to recruit on the T&C they offer, in fact they were overwhelmed with the applications. If we would force people to move to a worse condition than this would be a different discussion, but that is not the case here and there is legislation (while untested) to ensure this can not happen.

In the meantime, we get better buses (thanks to the TFI) and a pay for performance model in which the NTA can ensure the public get's value for money. We will need to see in a couple of weeks if the new operator is providing better customer service and how they get on.

I am happy that we are giving another operator a chance to provide services. The services are there for the public (including me) and I pay for it (either with a fare or my taxes) so I want a value for money service and if that includes scaling down an operation that is too expensive or inflexible than that has to happen.

Again, I appreciate it's difficult for some individuals but overall it hopefully improves the overall delivery of service and results in cost savings.

Yggr of Asgard · 12-09-2018 2:48pm

dashcamdanny wrote: »

We already have a state owned company already doing it! With 1000s of people employed. Getting a decent wage.

That is your opinion, mine as Shareholder of that company I am disputing that I as I think that they are not providing value for money and are paying a too high wage with inflexible working practices. But I'm not advocating of taking back that what negotiated.

dashcamdanny wrote: »

How can you see no evidence? Please consider the future... And how our sneaky politicians have always operated. Privatising State assets is not in the public interest as past events has clearly showed. New owners are driven by the need to increase shareholder returns. Full stop.

And if we had an effective government than state-owned or controlled companies would try to do the same for the good of the overall public, not those who work there. But unfortunately, our governments do not understand how to run companies which is why we have situations across the country where we have challenges including bundled privatizations.

dashcamdanny wrote: »

A driver in Go-ahead has a work his/her way upto 32k after a few years. With terrible T&Cs

And yet they received an overwhelming amount of applications and had no trouble finding people who want to work there.

dashcamdanny wrote: »

If they tender and win again, that means many DB drivers will have to transfer or be redundant, and have a crazy drop in wages after one year.

That is not true as discussed above.

dashcamdanny wrote: »

This has me and many others very very worried . Im bloody terrified to be honest.

Rightfully so and that needs to be appreciated but your fear is no different than the fear of anybody else in sectors where there is competition with the need for cost reductions and new work practices. We are not living in a system that guarantees work and some of us are used to that for all of their life, other just discover it now.

dashcamdanny wrote: »

I am well aware there are many, (especially here) that have a big problem with Dublin Bus for some reason or other, but the company is turning around with regard service, especially with the new blood coming in all the time.

There have been improvements (thanks to TFI/NTA) with better buses, better infrastructure and also better drivers (at least on the route I use) but too often it's still the good old DB. Buses not showing or 3 in a row. And sometimes I even prefer DB over, for example, Swords Express, but we can not wait and starting to source the right provider is the right thing to do for our nations transport system.

dashcamdanny wrote: »

FG selling us off and providing a watered down version of privatisation which will send large amounts of tax payers money to the rich and less to the guy working. In this case, a foreign companies shareholders.

And previously it sends it to the well paid and well-secured people working for DB. And does it matter if the profits are going to an Irish Company or a foreign company? Giving that most likely the bus you drive has been partly financed by the EU this is kind of a strange point. EU give me money, but please ensure only Irish companies can reap the reward of your investment.

dashcamdanny wrote: »

And will ultimately effect the service

Hopefully for the better.

end of the road · 12-09-2018 3:58pm

Yggr of Asgard wrote: »

That is your opinion, mine as Shareholder of that company I am disputing that I as I think that they are not providing value for money and are paying a too high wage with inflexible working practices. But I'm not advocating of taking back that what negotiated.

except they aren't paying a to high wage at all, but the correct wage. what are these inflexible working practices you speak of? how are they not providing value for money? fares are decided by the NTA and are unlikely to go down, so we should discount fares as a reason for now unless a miracle does happen there. the unions will be bringing up the wages at any new company who would ever tender for routes, so i think we should discount that as a reason as well.

Yggr of Asgard wrote: »

And yet they received an overwhelming amount of applications and had no trouble finding people who want to work there.

that's because the wages and terms will be going up. the dogs on the street know this.

Yggr of Asgard wrote: »

Rightfully so and that needs to be appreciated but your fear is no different than the fear of anybody else in sectors where there is competition with the need for cost reductions and new work practices. We are not living in a system that guarantees work and some of us are used to that for all of their life, other just discover it now.

it's not rightfully so that people should be in fear.
also, there is no actual competition as such, it's more competition in the loose sense of the word. also, there is unlikely to be any cost reductions coming via this process long term, and as for these supposed new working practices, if they negatively effect workers then the unions will be insuring they don't happen.

Yggr of Asgard wrote: »

There have been improvements (thanks to TFI/NTA) with better buses, better infrastructure and also better drivers (at least on the route I use) but too often it's still the good old DB. Buses not showing or 3 in a row. And sometimes I even prefer DB over, for example, Swords Express, but we can not wait and starting to source the right provider is the right thing to do for our nations transport system.

we sourced the right provider for our nation, it's called dublin bus. the provider operates to the specified contract, and can do nothing differently to that contract from what i can gather.

Yggr of Asgard wrote: »

And previously it sends it to the well paid and well-secured people working for DB.

only a tiny proportion of it, and those dublin bus workers are spending most, probably all, their money in ireland.

Yggr of Asgard wrote: »

And does it matter if the profits are going to an Irish Company or a foreign company? Giving that most likely the bus you drive has been partly financed by the EU this is kind of a strange point. EU give me money, but please ensure only Irish companies can reap the reward of your investment.

it does matter yes . with an irish company, all the money is more likely to stay in the irish economy. with a foreign company, some of that money will have to leave the economy to go to the shareholders.

Yggr of Asgard wrote: »

Hopefully for the better.

the service improvements are down to the contract, not tendering, as the NTA decide everything.

dublinman1990 · 12-09-2018 4:33pm

I saw one of GAI's single deck training buses out on the Blackrock bypass this afternoon.

I presume that this bus was going out from Dun Laoghaire as I hadn't seen any other GA buses on my travels in Blackrock.

There is a photograph on Flickr of a GA London Gemini in it's red livery doing some route training in Bray a few weeks ago.

punisher5112 · 12-09-2018 4:56pm

dublinman1990 wrote: »

I saw one of GAI's single deck training buses out on the Blackrock bypass this afternoon.

I presume that this bus was going out from Dun Laoghaire as I hadn't seen any other GA buses on my travels in Blackrock.

There is a photograph on Flickr of a GA London Gemini in it's red livery doing some route training in Bray a few weeks ago.

They are all over the city and outskirts.

.G. · 12-09-2018 4:56pm

punisher5112 wrote:

I was told the union didn't sign off on it so deal is 1 year.

If this is actually the case, whats the point of being in a union if their actions subject their members to worse protections than the law is supposed to provide?

punisher5112 · 12-09-2018 4:57pm

superg wrote: »

If this is actually the case, whats the point of being in a union if their actions subject their members to worse protections than the law is supposed to provide?

I'm going to see can I get more information on it.

dfx- · 12-09-2018 10:35pm

devnull wrote: »

Show someone who hasn't used a bus for a while an AV and the inside of it and they'll think of all the negative perceptions of the past and stick with their car, because quite frankly it looks similar to what it did 20 years ago inside. I know people have been attracted out of cars by the new vehicles because my friends and colleagues are some of the people who have done it.

What newer buses are doing is showing people who would never use a bus that things have changed and they have personal space, Wifi, USB sockets, brighter interiors, passenger information etc. And getting people to shift from cars is vital to stop gridlock in our city.

Appreciate that there are a group of people who feel different, but generally most of these are people who are using the bus, have to use the bus, or are enthusiasts, I know many I work with who have switched because the modernising of interiors because it makes them feel (rightly or wrongly) something changed.

It's true there are ALX400s still around in the UK, but I don't see any ex DB vehicles in the UK that work anything like the stressful duties that they would have done under DB, where they have a very short time between runs and can be on the route for 12 hours a dat at least.

wrongly.

Newer buses at 400k a go. Heck of a price for a small sliver of anecdotal customers who 'feel different' about WiFi and USB charging.

devnull · 12-09-2018 11:04pm

dfx- wrote: »

wrongly. Newer buses at 400k a go. Heck of a price for a small sliver of anecdotal customers who 'feel different' about WiFi and USB charging.

I just know what many people have told me or I've heard being said about people who haven't taken buses for many years, they think something has changed and the changes have helped to shake off negative perceptions of the past. I'm not saying the perceptions are right, but they certainly are there from your average person who hasn't used the bus for ages. I know 20-30 people now who will give buses a time of day that they never did in the past because of improvements over the last few years. Newer vehicles are also cheaper to run and are saving operators a large amount in fuel and maintenance.

We must get people out of their cars to stop the city grinding to a halt if we don't encourage modal shift and honestly, stepping on a 2006 AX literally says nothing has changed on vehicles since the early 90s. In the UK, National Express platinum brand, Arriva Saphire and Stagecoach Gold and the Witch Way in Lancashire to name a few have been very successful in attracting modal switch from people who haven't been on a bus in a long time with modern vehicles.

The good thing i slowly I feel that Dublin is moving towards a transport system that we see in other European cities and it cannot come soon enough, it looks like we might get fully multi-mode tickets as standard soon, a network that doesn't just revolve around the city center and also a more integrated system which firmly puts the public first rather than any individual operator or other interests. There's still a long way to go to achieve that and issues to be resolved but there are signs there and good progress has been made in the last few years and there is still a good way to go, but I see encouraging signs.

Stephen15 · 12-09-2018 11:11pm

dfx- wrote: »

wrongly.

Newer buses at 400k a go. Heck of a price for a small sliver of anecdotal customers who 'feel different' about WiFi and USB charging.

Nonsense older buses are gonna have to be replaced sooner or later by new buses which believe it or not cost money.

If newer buses increase customer satisfaction then that's an added bonus. More importantly newer buses are more fuel efficient and cheaper to maintain. If they kept an old fleet on the road then they would cost a hell of a lot to maintain and buses would be frequently breaking down causing passengers to get even more disgruntled. There would also be a safety risk older buses have tendency to go up in flames if heavily used.

Now is the best time to replace the older buses in the fleet while some money can recouped from their sale rather than running them into the scrap heap as you appear to be suggesting.

Stephen15 · 12-09-2018 11:22pm

devnull wrote: »

We must get people out of their cars to stop the city grinding to a halt if we don't encourage modal shift and honestly, stepping on a 2006 AX literally says nothing has changed on vehicles since the early 90s. In the UK, National Express platinum brand, Arriva Saphire and Stagecoach Gold and the Witch Way in Lancashire to name a few have been very successful in attracting modal switch from people who haven't been on a bus in a long time with modern vehicles.

I wouldn't be suggesting that now myself while I like to see new buses on the road I wouldn't be suggesting leather seats etc. Generally a consistent transport network rather than a fragmented one like the UK where there are more expensive premium services. I would much rather a consistent network where all buses look the same and have the same features with the same fare.

However I would like to see these kind of buses on non PSO work I think DB need to update their Airlink service and it would be very good if they invested in some new buses with leather seats and USB ports considering it is considered a premium service despite the buses on it not being the same as DB buses.

devnull · 12-09-2018 11:33pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

I wouldn't be suggesting that now myself while I like to see new buses on the road I wouldn't be suggesting leather seats etc. Generally a consistent transport network rather than a fragmented one like the UK where there are more expensive premium services. I would much rather a consistent network where all buses look the same and have the same features with the same fare.

Oh for sure, I don't think we need to go down the leather seats road either or have a two tier PSO network, my point more was that to get people out of their car you need to challenge and change perceptions and that the fact these services have been so successful is because they have been able to do that.

Generally the bus spec we have in Dublin City bus (GA & DB) services is pretty high these days, most UK cities wouldn't have the same spec we have on the latest deliveries for their standard services, Wifi over there is still not a standard feature and USB sockets and on-board information is even less common on your run of the mill services.

However I would like to see these kind of buses on non PSO work I think DB need to update their Airlink service and it would be very good if they invested in some new buses with leather seats and USB ports considering it is considered a premium service despite the buses on it not being the same as DB buses.

They're free to do what they want on that - Aircoach themselves cut out a very specific market for themselves for instance when the started- a lot of their custom when they started up came from taxi users and those who use private cars and never used regular buses, that's why they built the whole brand on luxury. True that the Airlink service needs replacing though sooner or later.

Stephen15 · 12-09-2018 11:50pm

devnull wrote: »

Oh for sure, I don't think we need to go down the leather seats road either or have a two tier PSO network, my point more was that to get people out of their car you need to challenge and change perceptions and that the fact these services have been so successful is because they have been able to do that.

Generally the bus spec we have in Dublin City bus (GA & DB) services is pretty high these days, most UK cities wouldn't have the same spec we have on the latest deliveries for their standard services, Wifi over there is still not a standard feature and USB sockets and on-board information is even less common on your run of the mill services.

Agreed although London has a relatively young fleet compared to the rest of the UK although the buses don't have WiFi or USB. I not a huge fan of the SGs myself although the newer ones from 2016 onwards seem a bit nicer and less rattley than the older 2014 and 2015 ones.

They're free to do what they want on that - Aircoach themselves cut out a very specific market for themselves for instance when the started- a lot of their custom when they started up came from taxi users and those who use private cars and never used regular buses, that's why they built the whole brand on luxury. True that the Airlink service needs replacing though sooner or later.

Perhaps DB could be doing a bit more to compete with Aircoach and taxis on that route for journies into the city centre where DB has the advantage of the Port Tunnel. Translink recently updated their Belfast International Services and the new buses do look quite nice perhaps DB could do something similar with the Airlink.

devnull · 13-09-2018 12:00am

I'd be curious how the full length single deck Streetlites get on with Go-AHead, since it's safe to say they've had mixed reviews in the UK, but since this is a slightly newer version of the Streetlite perhaps they'll be better. They are certainly going to have more than 28 capacity on them when they are rolled out though, they're far bigger than the DB ones, unless there are smaller ones too.

Stephen15 wrote: »

Agreed although London has a relatively young fleet compared to the rest of the UK although the buses don't have WiFi or USB. I not a huge fan of the SGs myself although the newer ones from 2016 onwards seem a bit nicer and less rattley than the older 2014 and 2015 ones.

Sure but in London you have the Tube, DLR and train network which is the mainstay of most peoples commuters with often the bus being a short trip from their home to the nearest rail/tram station or from work to the same, the average journey time for a London bus passenger would be far less than that of Dublin, where people are using the bus for long journeys as they have no other choice as they're not possible any other way.

I like the SGs, but ideally for build quality, I'd pick a VG with the additional features and seating the SG has (or even better, the seating that BE Geminis have) because the VG is a proper heavyweight bus that's built to quality rather than the GT (Gemini 2) and SG (Gemini 3) which are both newer version of the VG which have got progressively lighter and built from cheaper materials to save fuel and production costs. B

Perhaps DB could be doing a bit more to compete with Aircoach and taxis on that route for journies into the city centre where DB has the advantage of the Port Tunnel. Translink recently updated their Belfast International Services and the new buses do look quite nice perhaps DB could do something similar with the Airlink.

Well I don't think Aircoach are going forward last few years spec wise - their vehicles since 2014 for me are a step down on what came before them, but I'd not be surprised if someone like Go-Ahead bought them up, since First really are in dire financial straights and the break-up of First at least to some degree, is going to happen sooner rather than later. DB could give them a run for the money with newer vehicles, thats for sure.

punisher5112 · 13-09-2018 8:26am

I find the wright body vehicles to be absolutely cat.

They are far from comfortable and panels especially in ceiling are extremely easy to break up.

I find the whole ride extremely uncomfortable and every little bump felt.

Windows openings too small and I find the seats very cramped.

I do get onto the odd ax or ev and they are more comfortable.

n!ghtmancometh · 13-09-2018 10:49am

punisher5112 wrote: »

I find the wright body vehicles to be absolutely cat.

They are far from comfortable and panels especially in ceiling are extremely easy to break up.

I find the whole ride extremely uncomfortable and every little bump felt.

Windows openings too small and I find the seats very cramped.

I do get onto the off ax or even and they are more comfortable.

SG's are awful. Far less space for passengers as seats are smaller, and the window ledge is at an awkward position which makes it hard to lean into, and give the person sitting in the outside seat room to sit into their seat. I'd rather a comfortable journey over usb ports. Always delighted when a AV or VG turns up.

Very prone to an annoying vibration rattle noise upstsirs when they are stuck in traffic, I assume it's the poorly constructed roof panels.

Cookie_Monster · 13-09-2018 11:29am

dashcamdanny wrote: »

What people NEED to see here is a more expensive tender being given to a foreign company over an Irish one. That is a fact and stinks from hi heaven.

Does it bother you driving a foreign built bus as well, or is that somehow different?

devnull · 13-09-2018 11:51am

I don't dispute at all that the Gemini 2 and 3 is made from more lightweight materials than the original version but I still think it has a better and more modern interior that is more likely to get people out their cars than an old style av or ax bus. The trend now is to lightweight vehicle structures and reduced fuel consumption to lower running costs.

Commercial companies in the UK wouldn't be investing large sums of money in such specification if they could get the same number of passengers with a more basic spec as it would make no commercial sense. They do it as they know it encourages more customers than buying average run of the mill vehicles as they know they will see returns on investment.

Enthusiasts and people who post on this forum on boards are generally not going to be people who need to be convinced to switch to the bus as they already will. Take 100 random people off the streets and ask them which they prefer. It won't be a 20 year old bus and the operators will prefer the newer bus too as it will save them hugely if fuel costs.

The VG is the best frame and structure Hard wearing and best build quality bus DB have. If you can give it the interior features the SG has you have an excellent bus. The problem is that people stopped buying VGs in UK and Ireland because the build quality came with a serious weight penalty which saw them undercut by a range of lighter more cheap to run vehicles and lost a lot of customers so they had to adapt to remain relevant in the market.

howiya · 13-09-2018 12:09pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Does it bother you driving a foreign built bus as well, or is that somehow different?

Be interesting to see where he buys his groceries too.

It doesn't seem to dawn on those opposed to foreign ownership that they could buy shares in Go-Ahead. While unlikely to make a dent in its ownership given its market cap, it would be somewhat ironic if DB employees were to invest and make money from GA.

Stephen15 · 13-09-2018 1:37pm

n!ghtmancometh wrote: »

SG's are awful. Far less space for passengers as seats are smaller, and the window ledge is at an awkward position which makes it hard to lean into, and give the person sitting in the outside seat room to sit into their seat. I'd rather a comfortable journey over usb ports. Always delighted when a AV or VG turns up.

Very prone to an annoying vibration rattle noise upstsirs when they are stuck in traffic, I assume it's the poorly constructed roof panels.

While I don't think the SGs are good buses and I would agree that they rattle a bit much they are not as bad as the EV class which really rattle a lot more and feel like they are going to fall apart anytime they hit anything on the road. They are quite fast compared to other buses which is good at times.

Stephen15 · 13-09-2018 1:40pm

I hear Go-Ahead will be looking for drivers again in October not sure it could be for the ex BE contract or it could be for the routes which transfer over in January.

devnull · 13-09-2018 3:12pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

I hear Go-Ahead will be looking for drivers again in October not sure it could be for the ex BE contract or it could be for the routes which transfer over in January.

Ex BE contracts I'd say, any advertisement I've seen recently mentions another depot rather than Ballymount.

Yer Da sells Avon · 13-09-2018 4:44pm

They're now advertising for drivers who already hold a full D licence.

https://www.go-aheaddublin.ie/bus-drivers/

Please note we will not be processing any applications that hold a B Licence or a Learner Permit at this present time.

If you have already applied and hold a B Licence or Learner Permit we will be in contact in due course regarding your application.

dfx- · 13-09-2018 10:37pm

devnull wrote: »

I don't dispute at all that the Gemini 2 and 3 is made from more lightweight materials than the original version but I still think it has a better and more modern interior that is more likely to get people out their cars than an old style av or ax bus. The trend now is to lightweight vehicle structures and reduced fuel consumption to lower running costs.

Commercial companies in the UK wouldn't be investing large sums of money in such specification if they could get the same number of passengers with a more basic spec as it would make no commercial sense. They do it as they know it encourages more customers than buying average run of the mill vehicles as they know they will see returns on investment.

Enthusiasts and people who post on this forum on boards are generally not going to be people who need to be convinced to switch to the bus as they already will. Take 100 random people off the streets and ask them which they prefer. It won't be a 20 year old bus and the operators will prefer the newer bus too as it will save them hugely if fuel costs.

The VG is the best frame and structure Hard wearing and best build quality bus DB have. If you can give it the interior features the SG has you have an excellent bus. The problem is that people stopped buying VGs in UK and Ireland because the build quality came with a serious weight penalty which saw them undercut by a range of lighter more cheap to run vehicles and lost a lot of customers so they had to adapt to remain relevant in the market.

Give the 100 random people a third option of "no preference" or "no opinion", it'll be a very close call with no preference doing very well.

We can agree on something devnull :pac: - the VG is excellent all round as a customer experience without the USBs and gimmicks, just well built and comfortable.

When you step off one of them and step onto a GT, you wonder how such a similar looking bus is so much worse. If you were to be asked how to improve a SG or GT, you could point to a VG and say "build that instead".

devnull · 13-09-2018 11:06pm

dfx- wrote: »

Give the 100 random people a third option of "no preference" or "no opinion", it'll be a very close call with no preference doing very well.

Well if we are to ever end our clogged streets we need all the modal shift we can get at the end of the day if you ask me, Even if no preference wins, I'd say the SG would come second and if we can get all those people out of their cars then it will be better for everyone. Hopefully Go-Ahead can help with that and BusConnects will as well. Certainly the 175 seems to be doing it's job so far and is going down well with students.

When you step off one of them and step onto a GT, you wonder how such a similar looking bus is so much worse. If you were to be asked how to improve a SG or GT, you could point to a VG and say "build that instead".

I like the interior of the SG/GT over the VG, but the build quality of the later is much better, and better put together If you put the seats, Wifi and USB sockets and the passenger information screens and double doors into the VG then you'd have the perfect bus in my view from an interior point of view and a build quality point of view. There's no question that the trend to lightweight buses has been a bad thing. For example, a Streetlite is not a patch on a Wright Eclipse but the Eclipse got pushed out in the end by the Enviro 200, which honestly is a cheap as chips to run bus and a light one with poor build quality in my view and then the Streetlite was born and we'll soon see many of them with Go-Ahead Ireland and I bet you it won't be a patch of the VWL's in Bus Eireann.

Problem is that if they build the VG again then the net cost would be that Dublin Bus would end up spending a lot more on fuel because the VG is a much heavier bus than that of the GT/SG. Heavier buses are more hard-wearing and stronger and rattle less than the newer modern, lightweight stuff, but unfortunately the trend towards lighter buses has been heavily pushed along by the fact the biggest bus company in the UK has strong ownership links with the biggest bus builder in the UK and that partnership is mutually beneficial as it allows each other to dictate and control their respective markets and pretty much name the tune that the rest of the industry must dance along to.

Yer Da sells Avon · 13-09-2018 11:09pm

dfx- wrote: »

Give the 100 random people a third option of "no preference" or "no opinion", it'll be a very close call with no preference doing very well.

Since they got rid of the last of the non-low-floor double deckers (the late '90s ones with the Volvo logo going across the grille), I have no preference. I hated those buses with a passion. The water leaking through the poorly-fitted rubber around the upstairs windows... the constant puddle/pool sloshing around on the floor... the resultant damp smell... that 'ping... ping... ping' alarm... the sound of the driver punching the dashboard to (only momentarily) shut the alarm up. When the original low-floor double deckers started appearing in the early 2000s, they were an improvement in every possible way.

bk · 14-09-2018 12:12am

Something to keep in mind about newer, lighter buses. The main reason they are lighter is in order to meet very strict Euro 6 emissions standards.

The standards are forcing lighter, less powerful engines, so obviously the buses have to be built lighter too.

You couldn't buy a new Euro 4 VG class bus new anymore even if you wanted to.

punisher5112 · 14-09-2018 7:46am

Yer Da sells Avon wrote: »

Since they got rid of the last of the non-low-floor double deckers (the late '90s ones with the Volvo logo going across the grille), I have no preference. I hated those buses with a passion. The water leaking through the poorly-fitted rubber around the upstairs windows... the constant puddle/pool sloshing around on the floor... the resultant damp smell... that 'ping... ping... ping' alarm... the sound of the driver punching the dashboard to (only momentarily) shut the alarm up. When the original low-floor double deckers started appearing in the early 2000s, they were an improvement in every possible way.

They were the best bus ever no messing.

Brilliant drive and handled so well.

markpb · 14-09-2018 9:39am

punisher5112 wrote: »

They were the best bus ever no messing. Brilliant drive and handled so well.

They were pretty miserable for the other hundred people on the bus

I could be wrong but I think they were the same buses that had the lower-front saloon plunged into darkness at night because the lights would cause a reflection on the drivers windscreen.

punisher5112 · 14-09-2018 10:18am

markpb wrote: »

They were pretty miserable for the other hundred people on the bus I could be wrong but I think they were the same buses that had the lower-front saloon plunged into darkness at night because the lights would cause a reflection on the drivers windscreen.

If people opened the windows they wouldn't steam up and yes I agree the water would slosh around and at times come down into the cab.

They needed drain holes like the gt and sg.

I found them very comfortable as a passenger also.

Miss the sounds off them too.

CatInABox · 14-09-2018 10:57am

Yer Da sells Avon wrote: »

Since they got rid of the last of the non-low-floor double deckers (the late '90s ones with the Volvo logo going across the grille), I have no preference. I hated those buses with a passion. The water leaking through the poorly-fitted rubber around the upstairs windows... the constant puddle/pool sloshing around on the floor... the resultant damp smell... that 'ping... ping... ping' alarm... the sound of the driver punching the dashboard to (only momentarily) shut the alarm up. When the original low-floor double deckers started appearing in the early 2000s, they were an improvement in every possible way.

I have to admit, I haven't joined this conversation about what type of buses people like or don't like, mainly because I don't care, but this just made me shiver.

I HATED these buses.

Qrt · 14-09-2018 12:06pm

CatInABox wrote: »

I have to admit, I haven't joined this conversation about what type of buses people like or don't like, mainly because I don't care, but this just made me shiver.

I HATED these buses.

Were these the ones with the handrail at the doorway?

dashcamdanny · 14-09-2018 12:57pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Does it bother you driving a foreign built bus as well, or is that somehow different?

What? You come out with some amount of scutter. :rolleyes: What do you think?

MJohnston · 14-09-2018 1:08pm

dashcamdanny wrote: »

What? You come out with some amount of scutter. :rolleyes: What do you think?

Scutter like saying that foreign private companies will pay drivers less than Irish private companies? You still haven't clarified what you meant by that.

Yer Da sells Avon · 14-09-2018 1:17pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

Miss the sounds off them too.

"ping...ping...ping...ping..."

punisher5112 · 14-09-2018 1:21pm

Yer Da sells Avon wrote: »

"ping...ping...ping...ping..."

Nothing a ticket roll couldn't fix.

Mechanics loved them as they could fix pretty much anything at roadside.

Obviously at the end they were well past it but an overhaul could have had them right.

.G. · 14-09-2018 5:40pm

Yer Da sells Avon wrote: »

Since they got rid of the last of the non-low-floor double deckers (the late '90s ones with the Volvo logo going across the grille), I have no preference. I hated those buses with a passion. The water leaking through the poorly-fitted rubber around the upstairs windows... the constant puddle/pool sloshing around on the floor... the resultant damp smell... that 'ping... ping... ping' alarm... the sound of the driver punching the dashboard to (only momentarily) shut the alarm up. When the original low-floor double deckers started appearing in the early 2000s, they were an improvement in every possible way.

The drivers loved them too, when I was one you'd be delighted when you got allocated one however in my garage senior drivers pretty much took whatever bus they fancied, especially if they were allocated a dud so there were a few occasions where'd you'd be allocated and AV but it'd be gone!

Qrt · 14-09-2018 9:26pm

I did notice that some of the 175 drivers seem to need a lot more practice...

dfx- · 14-09-2018 9:28pm

CatInABox wrote: »

I have to admit, I haven't joined this conversation about what type of buses people like or don't like, mainly because I don't care, but this just made me shiver.

I HATED these buses.

the overarching ontopic point of this conversation is people's perception of buses. I would put it that nobody really cares whether it's shiny with WiFi etc. and not that an AV is no different to the RHs of the early 90s.

The AV is a world away from them and very reliable. AXs very rarely break down being an upgraded AV. Similarly the RVs of the early 90s were superb, being the culmination of ten years work with the RA and the horrid RH of the early 90s.

From a passenger experience an AV is perfectly good enough and modern. The pollution argument is a separate thing.

TallGlass · 14-09-2018 9:36pm

Go Ahead have no one to blame but themselves, the starting wage is miserable, they turned what I can imagine a lot of people off with it. I was considering it, but not a chance for that low a wage, you'd have less stress and less responsibility working in Mc Donalds for wages near it.

Also I don't blame GA for people not passing there tests, there is alot of pressure on them to pass and it's not exactly like a car test. Again the pay doesn't reflect all this. The RSA are rightly failing people if they don't deem them up to driving a bus around. Simple as that.

Go-Ahead Dublin City Routes - Updates and Discussion

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