Go-Ahead Dublin City Routes - Updates and Discussion

Stephen15

dfx- wrote: »

A lot of those GTs would be no loss to DB customers if they keep the other fleet types. Very uncomfortable, made with "lightweight materials" so a very shaky and rough ride.

They are the best buses in the DB fleet big windows nice airy solid buses. You sound like you are describing the EVs which feel like they are about to fall apart every time they hit the slightest bump in the road.

dublinbuster

soundman45 wrote: »

Good ahead will have main depot in ballymount where drivers based there will start/break/finish their duties.

So do posters around here really believe this?
9 hour day, 8 hour work , 1 hour break
Start Ballymount 6:00
given 30m to get to Bray for 6:30
work till 9:30
then 30min back to Ballymount
have 1hour break from10:00 to 11:00
Leave Ballymount at 11:00
arrive Bray 11:30
work until 14:30
then 30min back to Ballymount
for a 15:00 finish
So in a 8 hour work day 2 are spent driving out of service/dead running, and only 6 are spent working in service?

30mins to/from Bray is somewhat optimistic to believe it will take that time every time, Bray/N11/M50 can be a nightmare

dublinbuster

markodaly wrote: »

That skilled professional is looking at about 10 years left in their profession as it is, maybe 15 but the self-driving technology is a big locomotive that is rolling down that mountain very fast.

People entering the profession now in their 20's are never going to be there in their 60's come retirement age. They will get 20 years out of it, if they are very lucky.

If you looked into the effects of self driving vehicles on the current jobs market, you will see that the USA leads the way, there is a massive SHORTAGE of young men/women taking up the profession, as they are worries that it has no long term prospects, the problem is that few young people are willing to dedicate their careers to driving for fear that tech giants like Uber and Google will soon render them obsolete by introducing fleets of self-driving vehicles .
So the employers in the good old USA are paying unheard of wages for drivers, and they are only going up, every few months.

"Joyce Brenny, chief executive of Brenny Transportation in Minnesota, gave her truck drivers a 15 percent raise this year, but she still can't find enough workers for a job that now pays $80,000 a year."
"Brenny anticipates she will have to raise pay another 10 percent before the end of the year to ensure that other companies don't steal her drivers"

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/america-doesnt-have-enough-truckers-and-its-starting-to-cause-prices-to-rise/ar-AAxAyYC?ocid=se

dublinbuster

Tickityboo wrote: »

Spare drivers have it a lot easier these days compared to what it used to be like 15 or 20 years ago.

This x10
you have no idea what it was like before the EU work time laws came in
you could be last bus at nigh and the the first one in the morning
Completely horrendous duties with zero regard for the driver, you could complain and all you would hear was " you only guaranteed a days work, not start or finish times"
Its still bad today , but nothing compared to how it was just a few years ago

dublinbuster

Stephen15 wrote: »

They are the best buses in the DB fleet big windows nice airy solid buses. You sound like you are describing the EVs which feel like they are about to fall apart every time they hit the slightest bump in the road.

Solid my ass!
they are full of squeaks and rattles, made of cheap plastics

Stephen15

dublinbuster wrote: »

Solid my ass!
they are full of squeaks and rattles, made of cheap plastics

They are not great buses but there are plenty of awful buses in the DB fleet such as the SGs and EVs

dublinbuster

dublinbuster wrote: »

soundman45 wrote: »

Good ahead will have main depot in ballymount where drivers based there will start/break/finish their duties.

So do posters around here really believe this?
9 hour day, 8 hour work , 1 hour break
Start Ballymount 6:00
given 30m to get to Bray for 6:30
work till 9:30
then 30min back to Ballymount
have 1hour break from10:00 to 11:00
Leave Ballymount at 11:00
arrive Bray 11:30
work until 14:30
then 30min back to Ballymount
for a 15:00 finish
So in a 8 hour work day 2 are spent driving out of service/dead running, and only 6 are spent working in service?

30mins to/from Bray is somewhat optimistic to believe it will take that time every time, Bray/N11/M50 can be a nightmare

Do you think routes will remain as they are. 76 75 and 175 will work fine as is. 239 I'd say will extend from liffey valley to citywest. 17 will extend from rialto to ballymount. 114 extend from dundrum to tallaght. I can't imagine the routes will all remain as they are today. At interview stage they told me I would start/break/finish in ballymount for now that's all I have to go on. What have you got to back up saying it won't happen.

dublinbuster

soundman45 wrote: »

Do you think routes will remain as they are. 76 75 and 175 will work fine as is. 239 I'd say will extend from liffey valley to citywest. 17 will extend from rialto to ballymount. 114 extend from dundrum to tallaght. I can't imagine the routes will all remain as they are today. At interview stage they told me I would start/break/finish in ballymount for now that's all I have to go on. What have you got to back up saying it won't happen.

What are they going to do with the Bray 184 and 185, go to Newtown and Enniskerry via Ballymount?
Remember they cant just change a route, a new route would have to go out to tender
How do you or anyone else here see how they will operate the 184 and 185 out in Bray?
How do you or others believe they will start, break and finish in Ballymount?

a-b.ie shows it at least 2hours to 2hour 15min by public transport from Bray to Ballymount each way, would you or any other potential GA driver be happy with a extra 2 hours per day of travel added on to your work day, this would exclude your regular commute to and from Ballymount
Start at 6:00 Ballymount then Finish at 15:00 in Bray, Bus/Dart/LUAS back to Ballymount, then get in car and driver home, that a loooooong day, for 8 hour pay. I would want a definitive answer to this question before i considered the job.

Most interested in why you would work for possible 5k less a year starting with GA, and and even larger difference when you hit the GA top rate of 32k?

dublinbuster

soundman45 wrote: »

Do you think routes will remain as they are. What have you got to back up saying it won't happen.

Years of experience as a DB driver has tough me many things, one that i know for a FACT is it takes a unnatural long time to just change a bus stop, never mind rerouting a bus route, See 46a Monkstown Farm as a example.
Now does anyone here believe that GA are going to have it easier rerouting routes well out of their way to pass Ballymount to enable a driver stat.break,finish in depot?
What way will the Bray 184 and 185 operate?
What way will Dun laoghaire 45a, 59, 63, 111 go to bring them near Ballymount?
We are talking completely new routes, not some minor tinkering.
Ballymount is 24km from Bray and 20km to Dun Laoghaire, thats a lot of out of service/dead running, to allow start, break,finish in Ballymount for every duty.
96km per Bray duty
80km per Dun Laoghaire Duty
Thats per duty, that is serious time and money on Fuel each and every week.

Does anyone really believe this will happen?
If so what is your reasoning

punisher5112

They will have somewhere where the driver will handover.

Wouldn't surprise me if they have something in Bray let's say....

As I mentioned previously ga can't fail as nta won't let it.

They want it in and others and in the end more money is pissed out of the country.

dfx-

punisher5112 wrote: »

They will have somewhere where the driver will handover.

Wouldn't surprise me if they have something in Bray let's say....

As I mentioned previously ga can't fail as nta won't let it.

They want it in and others and in the end more money is pissed out of the country.

Yup, 1200 posts and it all still comes back to this. Right from the silence on the award decision.

The idea of changing/extending routes just so it's easier for them to get to and from Ballymount is a case in point.

Anything they need...

Yer Da sells Avon

Anyone know what to expect in interviews with Go-Ahead?

john boye

dfx- wrote: »

The idea of changing/extending routes just so it's easier for them to get to and from Ballymount is a case in point.

Anything they need...

Just like DB did with plenty of routes when Harristown opened?

Stephen15

If they are extending routes to their depot in Ballymount what happens then if they lose the tender in 5 years time and another company wins and decides to have their depot elsewhere or DB win the routes back. It would be ill thought out by the NTA to allow it happen.

Stephen15

Stephen15 wrote: »

If they are extending routes to their depot in Ballymount what happens then if they lose the tender in 5 years time and another company wins and decides to have their depot elsewhere or DB win the routes back. It would be ill thought out by the NTA to allow it happen.

Stop being a scaremonger. If they lose the contract in 7yrs time the bus depot will still be needed as will drivers there. Whoever were to take over the routes would be delighted to purchase a ready to operate depot as part of the deal. Also John boye made a perfect point in relation to Harristown depot, when it opened routes 13/83/4 etc all extended out to work to and from the depot. You might not like it but go ahead will be a success I reckon and have shown their intent by winning the bus eireann contract with more to follow I'd say.

Stephen15

soundman45 wrote: »

Stop being a scaremonger. If they lose the contract in 7yrs time the bus depot will still be needed as will drivers there. Whoever were to take over the routes would be delighted to purchase a ready to operate depot as part of the deal. Also John boye made a perfect point in relation to Harristown depot, when it opened routes 13/83/4 etc all extended out to work to and from the depot. You might not like it but go ahead will be a success I reckon and have shown their intent by winning the bus eireann contract with more to follow I'd say.

But what DB or BE win the routes and want to move the buses back to Donnybrook, Clontarf, Ringsend, Broadstone etc.

AlmightyCushion

What happens if when GoAhead are building their new depot in Ballymount they accidentally awaken Cthulhu and curse the human race to a thousand years of destruction and damnation? What about that guys???

TheQuietFella

I'm hearing that they can't get the drivers and were refused pp for diesel tanks

amongst other issues! I'm not saying that it's true but just what I heard!

Stevek101

How much of a disappointment will it be if they commence operations without a hitch?

end of the road

john boye wrote: »

Just like DB did with plenty of routes when Harristown opened?

at that time dublin bus were in charge of deciding routes in conjunction with the department for transport. so not a valid comparison.

soundman45 wrote: »

Stop being a scaremonger. If they lose the contract in 7yrs time the bus depot will still be needed as will drivers there. Whoever were to take over the routes would be delighted to purchase a ready to operate depot as part of the deal. Also John boye made a perfect point in relation to Harristown depot, when it opened routes 13/83/4 etc all extended out to work to and from the depot. You might not like it but go ahead will be a success I reckon and have shown their intent by winning the bus eireann contract with more to follow I'd say.

there is no scare mongering, just possible realities. there is no proof by the time the routes are up for tender again that the new operator would want that specific depot, they may have other ideas. that's assuming the depot would even be up for sale in the first place, which i'd be surprised if it is given go ahead will want some sort of depot facility to hold a presence in the dublin area.
John boye's point was in relation to operations from a different time so isn't valid now as there is a different operating environment due to the NTA being in charge of transport operations. winning contracts does not prove success of an operator over all, it just proves they won the contract.

Stephen15

Another concern I would have about extending routes to Ballymount would that it may deemed nessecary to extend one of the bus routes elsewhere rather than Ballymount.

devnull

dfx- wrote: »

The idea of changing/extending routes just so it's easier for them to get to and from Ballymount is a case in point.

Did the routes that are going to/from Harristown for years now and the ones that are running by Donnybrook garage purely for the convenience of staff and the routes that used to start and finish at Clontarf Depot escape your memory?

Stephen15 wrote: »

If they are extending routes to their depot in Ballymount what happens then if they lose the tender in 5 years time and another company wins and decides to have their depot elsewhere or DB win the routes back. It would be ill thought out by the NTA to allow it happen.

Well the cost of a depot would be a pretty big thing to have to factor into someones bid for a new entrant if they didn't already have one, so they would either have to take a hit upfront via set-up costs or not be really competitive and would have no chance of winning a tender.

If someone can build a depot and run the services and still win a tender against two incumbents that already have depots it would suggest that the incumbents are either not submitting very good bids or offering poor value for money for the taxpayer since really they should have an advantage.

Stephen15 wrote: »

But what DB or BE win the routes and want to move the buses back to Donnybrook, Clontarf, Ringsend, Broadstone etc.

Good luck on finding room for what will most likely be another 200 buses than Dublin Bus have at the moment. There really isn't going to be space for them all and a new depot was always going to need to be built sooner rather than later if people expect there to be more buses.

john boye

Stephen15 wrote: »

If they are extending routes to their depot in Ballymount what happens then if they lose the tender in 5 years time and another company wins and decides to have their depot elsewhere or DB win the routes back. It would be ill thought out by the NTA to allow it happen.

Would it really be that big a deal? DB extending routes to Harristown when it was built wasn't really a big deal and I'm sure if it closed tomorrow they'd just reroute the routes to the new garage or even back to their previous termini. And who knows, DB might even be interested in taking Ballymount themselves (they've long had aspirations for a depot in that general area) although I'm not sure how likely that would be or how willing GA would be to listen.

devnull

end of the road wrote: »

at that time dublin bus were in charge of deciding routes in conjunction with the department for transport. so not a valid comparison.

The fact that I'm seeing people having a dig at GA for something that there is nothing at all to back up, is probably the most hyperbolic thing I've seen in this thread to be honest in my opinion and that's saying something. There is nothing to back up that a load of routes will be extended to Ballymount. Nothing at all. Pure speculation.

Before the NTA was founded the regulation of bus transport and policing of public service obligation contracts was so light touch that many people used to consider that the DFT for many years was essentially an extension of Dublin Bus and failed to hold them to account. There was lots of blank cheques, no serious standards being set that the operator had to comply with and taxpayers money simply being handed over to use how they see fit.

To somehow say that Dublin Bus who had a lot more say over routes a decade ago isn't to reason for routing services to it's depot, but Go-Ahead, who have no say over the matter, are responsible for doing so, even though there's nothing to support that they actually will do so, seems to be talking them down for the sake of it.

Personally I want them to succeed because I want public transport to succeed because I rely on it, as do my colleagues, some of my family and my friends and our congestion on our roads depends on providing good public transport.

Stephen15

devnull wrote: »

Did the routes that are going to/from Harristown for years now and the ones that are running by Donnybrook garage purely for the convenience of staff and the routes that used to start and finish at Clontarf Depot escape your memory?

They don't go there for staff convience they might aswell go there. The routes that go there would terminate nearby and may aswell terminate at the depot it makes sense. None of the GAD routes go near Ballymount. Also what routes run by Donnybrook depot just to serve staff. They by there as Donnybrook Depot is on the N11 QBC

Good luck on finding room for what will most likely be another 200 buses than Dublin Bus have at the moment. There really isn't going to be space for them all and a new depot was always going to need to be built sooner rather than later if people expect there to be more buses.

DB may decide to extend their current depots. Plenty of room for expansion in Harristown for example as it's surrounded by green fields. Also with 24h buses on the horizon buses will not need to be in the depot as much Aircoach have a small depot because they run buses 24h. Most DB depots have more than enough room to fit every bus they service. Most London bus depots are bulging at the seems if you parked every bus they operate in them.

devnull

Stephen15 wrote: »

They don't go there for staff convience they might aswell go there. The routes that go there would terminate nearby and may aswell terminate at the depot it makes sense.

They do - because there was a union agreement that all routes in Harristown depot need to start, finish and break in the depot for a long while, there was even a strike about this very thing. Part of the reason that the routes run to Harristown is to enable this to happen.

None of the GAD routes go near Ballymount. Also what routes run by Donnybrook depot just to serve staff. They by there as Donnybrook Depot is on the N11 QBC

I'm not the person who brought up Ballymount, people here seem to have came up with the idea that Go-Ahead are going to run a load of buses to Ballymount and then used that as a stick to beat them with despite the fact there's nothing to back up that it's actually happening.

The 7D used to operate via the depot as did other routes, I'm not sure of what the status of these routes is now, but they used to go via there. The 103/104 at one point was also moved from Clontarf DART station to Clontarf Bus Depot, which was hardly a positive move for the customers even though it was for staff.

DB may decide to extend their current depots. Plenty of room for expansion in Harristown for example as it's surrounded by green fields.

Harristown I grant you, but the others not so much and realistically they're not going to run everything from Harristown, there are a lot of drivers who don't want to work from there as it's so far out and also there's been a lot of issues about start break and finishing there in the past as well which won't give the most operational flexibility.

Also with 24h buses on the horizon buses will not need to be in the depot as much Aircoach have a small depot because they run buses 24h. Most DB depots have more than enough room to fit every bus they service. Most London bus depots are bulging at the seems if you parked every bus they operate in them.

Aircoach have three places to store vehicles though and have a fleet of about 50 coaches which is pretty much small fry compared to the other places. The Bendy buses are normally stored in the Dublin Airport Car Parks when they are not all in use. Not really a similar comparison.

I personally don't think there is anywhere near 200 spaces in Dublin Bus Depots at the moment. You have to remember Go-Ahead Dublin will be operating an additional 125 buses to what Dublin Bus have now and you'll expect to see the combined fleet expand by at the very least 75 over the lifetime of the GA contract, so that's another 200 buses on top of what DB have now, I can't see them doing that from existing capacity.

john boye

devnull wrote: »

The 7D used to operate via the depot as did other routes, I'm not sure of what the status of these routes is now, but they used to go via there. The 103/104 at one point was also moved from Clontarf DART station to Clontarf Bus Depot, which was hardly a positive move for the customers even though it was for staff.

The 18 was given an utterly comical extension from Sandymount to Donnybrook in the 2000s. The route it had to take made the ring of Kerry look like a shortcut

Stephen15

devnull wrote: »

I'm not the person who brought up Ballymount, people here seem to have came up with the idea that Go-Ahead are going to run a load of buses to Ballymount and then used that as a stick to beat them with despite the fact there's nothing to back up that it's actually happening.

True I never said it would happen either. I was just questioning the viability of such an action if it were to happen

The 7D used to operate via the depot as did other routes, I'm not sure of what the status of these routes is now, but they used to go via there. The 103/104 at one point was also moved from Clontarf DART station to Clontarf Bus Depot, which was hardly a positive move for the customers even though it was for staff.

That 7d journey was once a day operating at 5.30 in the morning. It's de facto a staff shuttle that the public can use and appears on the public timetable.

I personally don't think there is anywhere near 200 spaces in Dublin Bus Depots at the moment. You have to remember Go-Ahead Dublin will be operating an additional 125 buses to what Dublin Bus have now and you'll expect to see the combined fleet expand by at the very least 75 over the lifetime of the GA contract, so that's another 200 buses on top of what DB have now, I can't see them doing that from existing capacity.

Depots wouldn't need to be able to fit 200 buses. If x number were out at night when 24h services are introduced.

Kyleboy

john boye wrote: »

The 18 was given an utterly comical extension from Sandymount to Donnybrook in the 2000s. The route it had to take made the ring of Kerry look like a shortcut

Why is it comical? The route extension was to incorporate ucd and St Vincent's hospital, what route would you suggest?

bk

Surely it makes completely sense for the NTA to allow any operator, GA/DB/BE to make sensible changes to routes if it helps facilitate better and more efficient integration with depots, handovers and staffing. Of course taking into account the effect on the route, customers and overall goal of providing better public transport to the public.

In other words the NTA and operators should be working closely together trying to work out the best balance between the needs of the operators, staff and customer in a positive manner.

That is what running a public transport system is supposed to look like.

I assume BusConnects will do similar taking in the needs of all involved and we will probably see similar changes to the networks of all the operators.