Trevor Deely case - new witness

Patrick2010 · 05-12-2019 5:28pm

Sorry, but couldn't resist, re :They were not the type of prostitute that you'd take home to your mother

What type of prostitutes do you normally bring home to your mother?

KWAG2019 · 05-12-2019 5:28pm

Pheonix10 wrote: »

Wait so can any advise who the guys at the gates were? Thought one was a security guard or post man?

IIRC all were garda accounted for except for the man TD spoke to. This was established previously. I'd forget about looking at the videos: you're not going to see something that hasn't been dealt with.

TheW1zard · 05-12-2019 5:30pm

There's 3 locks between Mount Street and Baggot St Uppr where he crossed the Canal. He wouldnt have gone through all of them surely?
Where would he have gone into the Dodder? He lived down that way but you have to have jumped in.

I always thought the abduction murder scenario was more plausible.

Poor family, Im sure this thread will get locked up soon enough.

tomwaits48 · 05-12-2019 5:34pm

has the case been covered in a podcast anywhere, does anyone know?

DellyBelly · 05-12-2019 5:43pm

Day Lewin wrote: »

Several of his mates saw him talking with a girl at the nightclub.
Much later, on his way home, a girl followed in his footsteps, captured on CCTV, never identified.
One might wildly speculate that it was the same girl, who told him (and maybe others like him) where there would be a good party after the club ended. A touch of entrapment!
All pure speculation and guesswork: but at least, compatible with the few known facts.

You should change you username to Hercule Poirot

DellyBelly · 05-12-2019 5:44pm

Berserker5 wrote: »

'Sex not disclosed' means a female anyhow

In this day and age it could be that the person see's themselves as Gender neutral :rolleyes:

farmchoice · 05-12-2019 5:50pm

i think there are 3 possibilities

1. he killed himself, he jumped into a body of water, be that grand canal dock or the dodder and his body was never found.
the family have never accepted this as likely but in reality it is the most likely its an all to common story unfortunately.

2. he fell into some body of water, and due to the conditions his body was never found. this is not terribly likely he was steady on his feet, why would he have been that close to the dodder or the grand canal basin, if he fell into the canal he would have been found, still its possible.

3. he got into an altercation with someone and he was killed and disposed of, getting into a fight is quite possible even getting killed by mistake is possible, you fall and hit you head, but the chances that you get into a fight with the type of person who can organize such a thing in the middle of the night is highly highly unlikely. it is just about possible, that part of Dublin had plenty of unsavory characters knocking about. still the notion that you could get in a fight be killed and be disposed of on a saturday night around Christmas without any seeing anything is a pretty outlandish theory.

suicide_circus · 05-12-2019 5:54pm

random murder is rare. very rare. if as is being suggested, Trevor fell foul of a criminal gang, its difficult to avoid the idea that he was having some type of interaction with them. the area was notorious for prostitution and that trade goes hand in hand with orgabised crime, drugs etc.

Ash.J.Williams · 05-12-2019 5:57pm

Dodge wrote: »

What type of hookers do you normally bring home to you mother?

Julia Roberts?

padd b1975 · 05-12-2019 5:57pm

TwoMonthsOff wrote: »

He invited himself over to Alaska after being told by the friend in Alaska not to come.

Smooth.

05-12-2019 6:12pm

My late aunt, born 1920, lived in Mespil Estate apartments and knew well of the prostitutes in the area who have been around since I was a child. Indeed when I was visiting my aunt during day time one Sunday, I was approached by a young lad asking how much I was charging for my body! I wouldn’t mind but I was wearing corduroy trousers and a tank top, a very unsexy rig-out which I hated. My aunt told me of the time when she and my grandmother were taking a stroll to the church for Sunday Mass when Legion of Mary volunteers approached them and pleaded them to change their lifestyle, which was hurting God! My Nana thought it was great fun that the Legion ladies thought they were “working ladies”, and she played a game with them, pulling up the skirt and asking them not to spoil “business” on them!

The red light district stretched up Haddington Road too, the full route that my aunt and grandmother would take to Mass, also into Ballsbridge up to Ailesbury Road to some extent but with focal point in the surroundings of my aunt’s estate-though not in the Estate itself.

Fr Tod Umptious · 05-12-2019 6:17pm

TheW1zard wrote: »

There's 3 locks between Mount Street and Baggot St Uppr where he crossed the Canal. He wouldnt have gone through all of them surely?
Where would he have gone into the Dodder? He lived down that way but you have to have jumped in.

I always thought the abduction murder scenario was more plausible.

Poor family, Im sure this thread will get locked up soon enough.

So he was heading down Haddington Rd, it's presumed that he may have been going for cigarettes in the 24 hour shop around South Lott's rd Bath Ave.

From there to get back to Sandymount he could have gone along the Dodder Walk at the back of the then Landsowne Rd stadium that goes all the way up to the bridge in Ballsbridge

Plenty of places along that walk were the water is only a few steps away.
It's dark, the river is high, he has taken alcohol, etc etc.

Would I do it at 3am on wet morning, no, but remember there was a taxi strike so no reason to take the main routes and hail a cab as might happen any other night.

So he did get close to the Dodder on his way home, regardless of what route he took, not to mention the fact that Haddington Rd itself leads to water if you keep going mainly straight.

iamstop · 05-12-2019 6:19pm

farmchoice wrote: »

i think there are 3 possibilities

1. he killed himself, he jumped into a body of water, be that grand canal dock or the dodder and his body was never found.
the family have never accepted this as likely but in reality it is the most likely its an all to common story unfortunately.

2. he fell into some body of water, and due to the conditions his body was never found. this is not terribly likely he was steady on his feet, why would he have been that close to the dodder or the grand canal basin, if he fell into the canal he would have been found, still its possible.

With the tech we have now surely we can test the possibility of a body falling into the canal or the Dodder and see where it ends up.

Get a dummy like 'Buster' from Myth Busters. Make it same build and buoyancy as Trevor would have been. Slap a few trackers on it. Wait until there is similar weather conditions to that night and dump it into a likely entry point. The tracker will tell you if it would have made it past the locks on the canal and if it would have made it out to sea. Yeah, chances are the tides won't be the same but give it long enough to see where it gets to.

0gac3yjefb5sv7 · 05-12-2019 6:22pm

He had a large umbrella that was never found and also his phone kept ringing for days after. Both of which point to him not falling in.

05-12-2019 6:25pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

random murder is rare. very rare. if as is being suggested, Trevor fell foul of a criminal gang, its difficult to avoid the idea that he was having some type of interaction with them. the area was notorious for prostitution and that trade goes hand in hand with orgabised crime, drugs etc.

We don’t really know Trevor’s personality. If he were an inept awkward kind of guy he might have “chatted up” a girl in the nightclub who was really a prostitute not wanting her professional time wasted with non-profitable business, watched by her “minder”. If he was giddy drunk, acting the maggot a bit, blocking other potential business, acting one minute as if he might be a potential customer, the next minute saying “you must be kidding love, not my type”... could have got a dangerous woman and viscous “minder” mad and wanting to “teach him a lesson”, or so enraged and furious about business being spoilt called in backup for a quick disposal.

There was possibly a taunting match going on with them following Trevor, and with gang boss cruising around in car who pulled in at convenient moment, dragged him into car for a dressing down not to fcuk up business, he got shot when he didn’t appear sufficiently repentant.

0gac3yjefb5sv7 · 05-12-2019 6:27pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

We don’t really know Trevor’s personality. If he were an inept awkward kind of guy he might have “chatted up” a girl in the nightclub who was really a prostitute not wanting her professional time wasted with non-profitable business, watched by her “minder”. If he was giddy drunk, acting the maggot a bit, blocking other potential business, acting one minute as if he might be a potential customer, the next minute saying “you must be kidding love, not my type”... could have got a dangerous woman and viscous “minder” mad and wanting to “teach him a lesson”, or so enraged and furious about business being spoilt called in backup for a quick disposal.

There was possibly a taunting match going on with them following Trevor, and with gang boss cruising around in car who pulled in at convenient moment, dragged him into car for a dressing down not to fcuk up business, he got shot when he didn’t appear sufficiently repentant.

Some novel there! Good thing you didn't get carried away haha.

Tea Shock · 05-12-2019 6:27pm

One thing that always slightly baffled me is the final CCTV footage shows Trevor passing the bank that is now Milano's and walking down Haddington Road, supposedly on his way home, which was on Serpentine Avenue.

Why would someone walk down Haddington Road from there if they were on their way to Serpentine Avenue? Surely, especially on a miserable night of wind and rain, you'd want to take the quickest route, which would have been directly towards Pembroke Road.

Was he actually going home at all?

Always puzzled me a bit about this case!

KWAG2019 · 05-12-2019 6:29pm

farmchoice wrote: »

i think there are 3 possibilities

1. he killed himself, he jumped into a body of water, be that grand canal dock or the dodder and his body was never found.
the family have never accepted this as likely but in reality it is the most likely its an all to common story unfortunately.

2. he fell into some body of water, and due to the conditions his body was never found. this is not terribly likely he was steady on his feet, why would he have been that close to the dodder or the grand canal basin, if he fell into the canal he would have been found, still its possible.

3. he got into an altercation with someone and he was killed and disposed of, getting into a fight is quite possible even getting killed by mistake is possible, you fall and hit you head, but the chances that you get into a fight with the type of person who can organize such a thing in the middle of the night is highly highly unlikely. it is just about possible, that part of Dublin had plenty of unsavory characters knocking about. still the notion that you could get in a fight be killed and be disposed of on a saturday night around Christmas without any seeing anything is a pretty outlandish theory.

Back to the dim and distant past but in my youth I was involved with LoM and was asked if I would help with their mission in that area. They had a house there eventually and while the experience you relate mightn't be positive they at least were trying to do something. I couldn’t help due to travel and such but as many have noted here that part of Dublin was (and seemingly still is) known for street prostitution.

Stevieluvsye · 05-12-2019 6:31pm

Tea Shock wrote: »

One thing that always slightly baffled me is the final CCTV footage shows Trevor passing the bank that is now Milano's and walking down Haddington Road, supposedly on his way home, which was on Serpentine Avenue.

Why would someone walk down Haddington Road from there if they were on their way to Serpentine Avenue? Surely, especially on a miserable night of wind and rain, you'd want to take the quickest route, which would have been directly towards Pembroke Road.

Was he actually going home at all?

Always puzzled me a bit about this case!

Taxi rank maybe?

Professor Genius · 05-12-2019 6:39pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

We don’t really know Trevor’s personality. If he were an inept awkward kind of guy he might have “chatted up” a girl in the nightclub who was really a prostitute not wanting her professional time wasted with non-profitable business, watched by her “minder”. If he was giddy drunk, acting the maggot a bit, blocking other potential business, acting one minute as if he might be a potential customer, the next minute saying “you must be kidding love, not my type”... could have got a dangerous woman and viscous “minder” mad and wanting to “teach him a lesson”, or so enraged and furious about business being spoilt called in backup for a quick disposal.

There was possibly a taunting match going on with them following Trevor, and with gang boss cruising around in car who pulled in at convenient moment, dragged him into car for a dressing down not to fcuk up business, he got shot when he didn’t appear sufficiently repentant.

This imaginary nonsense will rightly have the thread locked and deleted again.

I remember in the other thread there was detailed analysis on the cctv stills

Fr Tod Umptious · 05-12-2019 6:41pm

Stevieluvsye wrote: »

Taxi rank maybe?

No, there was a taxi strike that night.
He smoked so he could have been going to the 24 hours shop in Bath Ave to buy some.

Fr Tod Umptious · 05-12-2019 6:50pm

Pheonix10 wrote: »

He had a large umbrella that was never found and also his phone kept ringing for days after. Both of which point to him not falling in.

The umbrella was probably just dumped in the bin by a street cleaner, Bill Clinton was visiting so the town had to look ship shape, and all it was was an umbrella anyway, probably loads of them strewn around a city after bad weather.

As for his phone family or friends cannot categorically say whether it rang or not when they tried to contact him on the Friday, Saturday or Sunday.
And can you blame them, who of us remember if a call we made a few days ago went to voicemail, or rang out or whatever.

I'm sure the Gardai have studied his phone records, but they probably only tell them what they already know, i.e last sighting was Dublin 2 that night/morning.

0gac3yjefb5sv7 · 05-12-2019 7:01pm

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

The umbrella was probably just dumped in the bin by a street cleaner, Bill Clinton was visiting so the town had to look ship shape, and all it was was an umbrella anyway, probably loads of them strewn around a city after bad weather.

As for his phone family or friends cannot categorically say whether it rang or not when they tried to contact him on the Friday, Saturday or Sunday.
And can you blame them, who of us remember if a call we made a few days ago went to voicemail, or rang out or whatever.

I'm sure the Gardai have studied his phone records, but they probably only tell them what they already know, i.e last sighting was Dublin 2 that night/morning.

It would be impossible to recall if a phone was ringing 19 years after but surely 3/4 days you'd remember. Especially if someone was missing.

Fr Tod Umptious · 05-12-2019 7:08pm

Pheonix10 wrote: »

It would be impossible to recall if a phone was ringing 19 years after but surely 3/4 days you'd remember. Especially if someone was missing.

But he wasn't missing until Monday afternoon/evening.

KWAG2019 · 05-12-2019 7:19pm

Pheonix10 wrote: »

He had a large umbrella that was never found and also his phone kept ringing for days after. Both of which point to him not falling in.

IIRC his sister said she phoned him over that weekend not knowing he was missing and the phone rang out. That would indicate that the phone was not in water.

There are several possibilities around how or why TD might still have ended up in water without his phone.

05-12-2019 7:27pm

Stevieluvsye wrote: »

Taxi rank maybe?

Taxi strike. Don’t think there’s a rank up that way either.

05-12-2019 7:48pm

Bodies fallen into water have a tendency of popping up to the surface after a few days. In an urban area (although with the short cold days of winter) it is likely than it would be seen if it floated during daylight hours close enough to points of observation. It didn’t get carried to the sandbanks of Dublin Bay by low tide, nor did it get visibly snagged up in the debris of a river or amid shipping. All things are possible (I think of the body of an Irish person that turned up on a Welsh beach and only identified years later due to lack of interaction between police forces then) but I honestly think the likelihood of him having ended up in water is small enough.

That person who gave evidence a couple of years back that led to the Chapelizod dig probably had good reason to believe his remains might be there as that was the known usual “secret dumping/hiding ground” for the individual/gang. It may be somewhere else that the individual used, or in the direction of some business they had somewhere in the countryside or up the Dublin mountains. He could have been buried in final place on Christmas Day, when least number of people are out and about.

smelly sock · 05-12-2019 7:54pm

You'd assume the women turning tricks were all interviewed at the time. Guaranteed they know something if it was a gang operating in the area.

Beechwoodspark · 05-12-2019 7:55pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Taxi strike. Don’t think there’s a rank up that way either.

Rank at spar baggot ?

Fr Tod Umptious · 05-12-2019 8:06pm

People should read this Irish Times series from a few years ago to familiarise themselves with some of the facts of the case

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/the-disappearance-of-trevor-deely-part-1-1.2120358

snotboogie · 05-12-2019 8:13pm

If you read between the lines of the press releases and police action its clear that they don't think he ended up in the water.

On top of that the CCTV outside the office is really weird, the lad skulking around at 3am on a rainy night, only moving to follow Trevor to the gate. Never came forward. Ponta 6 did a great breakdown of the CCTV: https://youtu.be/mLXEME-G0A8

05-12-2019 8:14pm

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/53.3326973,-6.2514435/53.3313203,-6.2231209/@53.3327498,-6.2374194,14z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e2

Looking at Google Map route options I see going down Haddington Road is much of a muchness walking time wise, and maybe he was in the habit of using this route rather than up through the main thoroughfare of Pembroke Road.

Hector Savage · 05-12-2019 8:21pm

So that independent article is behind a pay wall, does it give any more details ?
Why is the witness coming forward now ? someone she feared is now out of the picture ?

smelly sock · 05-12-2019 8:24pm

Hector Savage wrote: »

So that independent article is behind a pay wall, does it give any more details ?
Why is the witness coming forward now ? someone she feared is now out of the picture ?

Possibly a pimp/gang member.

KWAG2019 · 05-12-2019 8:31pm

snotboogie wrote: »

If you read between the lines of the press releases and police action its clear that they don't think he ended up in the water.

On top of that the CCTV outside the office is really weird, the lad skulking around at 3am on a rainy night, only moving to follow Trevor to the gate. Never came forward. Ponta 6 did a great breakdown of the CCTV: https://youtu.be/mLXEME-G0A8

The other men outside the gate were eliminated from enquiries by Gardai apart from the man who was hanging around for 30 mins. The timings are interesting.

BDI · 05-12-2019 8:42pm

Are people saying he headed up mespil Avenue to the spar beside the garage and the other direction was faster?

Wasn’t there a story before about a fella who was brought back to some house on the pretense the prostitute was taking him back to the house and then he was beaten and robbed. It was a scam they were running and it was thought they ran it for a while but people weren’t coming forward because of the circumstances.

I’m not saying that’s what happened and iit might have gone wrong. But it’d explain how he was removed from the area. He was possibly already out of the area.

Plenty of crime families had hooks in the area whether they were sisters of criminals working the streets or criminals watching their girlfriends working the streets to make money for drugs, I remember jade goodeys mother(I think it was,) saying she used to trick prostitute customers into parting with their money then running off but she wasn’t a prostitute.

I’d say he was just a nieve young lad that got tricked into something that went out of control when he’d a few too many on him.

I could be way off but I hope they find him. My first full time job was plastered with his pictures at the time and that was well into the outskirts of Dublin.

05-12-2019 8:47pm

As someone said earlier, it's strange how this case keeps popping up when so many other missing person cases are just written off. The family obviously deserve some credit for that but I think at this stage it's fair to say the Gaurds are also keen for more information. This means, in my opinion, that they know who they want but don't have the evidence to charge, so they keep trying to get someone to come forward, because they know people have information. That implies its a murder. Also, they don't announce new leads and dug up an area like they did last year unless they are pretty certain the poor chap was murdered and disposed of by a well known criminal.

smelly sock · 05-12-2019 8:53pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

As someone said earlier, it's strange how this case keeps popping up when so many other missing person cases are just written off. The family obviously deserve some credit for that but I think at this stage it's fair to say the Gaurds are also keen for more information. This means, in my opinion, that they know who they want but don't have the evidence to charge, so they keep trying to get someone to come forward, because they know people have information. That implies its a murder. Also, they don't announce new leads and dug up an area like they did last year unless they are pretty certain the poor chap was murdered and disposed of by a well known criminal.

A well known criminal gang or individual wouldnt have had a reason to target him either. It seems to me with what AGS and the press have been saying that this was a chance meeting. In the wrong place at the wrong time. If it had of been an ongoing involvement with a gang then evidence would have surfaced.

Most people known what the canal and area were renowned for. That to me is the most plausible explanation.

tara73 · 05-12-2019 8:55pm

Deleted User wrote: »

As someone said earlier, it's strange how this case keeps popping up when so many other missing person cases are just written off. The family obviously deserve some credit for that but I think at this stage it's fair to say the Gaurds are also keen for more information. This means, in my opinion, that they know who they want but don't have the evidence to charge, so they keep trying to get someone to come forward, because they know people have information. That implies its a murder. Also, they don't announce new leads and dug up an area like they did last year unless they are pretty certain the poor chap was murdered and disposed of by a well known criminal.

this.

smelly sock · 05-12-2019 8:57pm

tara73 wrote: »

this.

Exaclty. That chap found in the unmarked grave in Wales was missing for 25 years. Id never heard of the poor guy. Conor Whooley.

05-12-2019 8:59pm

smelly sock wrote: »

A well known criminal gang or individual wouldnt have had a reason to target him either. It seems to me with what AGS and the press have been saying that this was a chance meeting. In the wrong place at the wrong time.

But it can be both. Wrong place, wrong time, well known criminal who is a total nut job. (Aren't they all?).

KWAG2019 · 05-12-2019 9:01pm

Deleted User wrote: »

As someone said earlier, it's strange how this case keeps popping up when so many other missing person cases are just written off. The family obviously deserve some credit for that but I think at this stage it's fair to say the Gaurds are also keen for more information.

The Philip Cairns case got renewed energy some years ago. There are threads still floating around here I think about it. There was a lot of chat about some dead pedo called Cooke and Gardaí were following up on a storage full of videos etc etc. What have we heard since?

If we have a significant witness now and that has been released to the media I’d expect significant legal steps shortly.

smelly sock · 05-12-2019 9:01pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

But it can be both. Wrong place, wrong time, well known criminal who is a total nut job. (Aren't they all?).

Plenty of them up around there making sure business was running smooth also.

BDI · 05-12-2019 9:03pm

And the taxi strike stuff only means not as many taxis were running. There’s always plenty of taxis willing to work through a strike.

Might also mean one of them didn’t come forward because they didn’t want to publicly be labeled a scab but surely they’d have come forward by now.

smelly sock · 05-12-2019 9:04pm

KWAG2019 wrote: »

The Philip Cairns case got renewed energy some years ago. There are threads still floating around here I think about it. There was a lot of chat about some dead pedo called Cooke and Gardaí were following up on a storage full of videos etc etc. What have we heard since?

If we have a significant witness now and that has been released to the media I’d expect significant legal steps shortly.

We hear it all the time though. Its a tactic AGS use to try and make potential witnesses come forward. Usually when they have a fair idea who they are looking for and what happened.

Deirdre Jacob recently enough is another example.

I wouldnt be expecting anything to significant to happen at all.

KWAG2019 · 05-12-2019 9:08pm

smelly sock wrote: »

We hear it all the time though.

I wouldnt be expecting anything to significant to happen at all.

I agree. I just think the police need to be careful about saying something is significant if they can’t follow through.

smelly sock · 05-12-2019 9:09pm

KWAG2019 wrote: »

I agree. I just think the police need to be careful about saying something is significant if they can’t follow through.

Yeh but i think its the press who should wisen up.

tara73 · 05-12-2019 9:17pm

smelly sock wrote: »

Yeh but i think its the press who should wisen up.

but can they write what they want? It's an ongoing investigation and if making stuff up like this (significant lead/new witness) wouldn't there been charges pressed?

smelly sock · 05-12-2019 9:18pm

tara73 wrote: »

but can they write what they want? It's an ongoing investigation and if making stuff up like this (significant lead) wouldn't there been charges pressed?

Yeh they tend to do that. All they want to do is sell papers. Journalists by nature are heartless. They will say they have a source within AGS. Id imagine they do. Id imagine AGS have a concrete theory based on intel and indeed some hear say evidence but i doubt they have enough to charge.

05-12-2019 9:20pm

KWAG2019 wrote: »

I agree. I just think the police need to be careful about saying something is significant if they can’t follow through.

Crims tend not to do things by the book, so a there’s a large amount of serendipity involved in solving some crimes, eg Elaine O’Hara must have been working some magic from the afterlife to have a set of fairly unusual coincidences align to result in that waster’s arrest and conviction.

Trevor Deely case - new witness

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