Drew Harris appointed Garda commissioner.

Captain Obvious · 29-06-2018 8:47am

alaimacerc wrote: »

People are often very sloppy about garda, police and indeed military ranks, in a way that I can only imagine causes petits mals in the organisations -- leave alone the individuals -- concerned. A recent TV report called the commissioner of the Met the "Commander" (which similarly, is an actual rank too, but one about four more junior). UK chief constables, Deputy CCs, and Assistant CC are all different ranks, but get captioned and introduced interchangeably. "Lieutenant Commanders" regularly turn into "Lieutenants", also v. bad for their pension outcomes, were this the case. Plus of course the pronunciation of the word "Lieutenant" itself is always a "which side of the pond" lottery.

Yeah but this is the difference between area manager and CEO. And his rank is in the title of the thread.

tigger123 · 29-06-2018 8:56am

CrankyHaus wrote: »

Unless they separate Garda policing from national security functions this makes no sense.

Harris' loyalty has always been to a foreign power. It was revealed at the Smithwick Tribunal that as PSNI head of intelligence he was its interface with MI5. Hardly a safe set of hands for matters of national security.

No adverse reflection on Harris' character intended : he appears to be a talented, experienced and principled Police officer.

I've never understood this line of thinking. Why is it such a difficulty to have someone from another jurisdiction head up the police force? What exactly is the danger in this?

Police forces share intelligence and cooperate on cross jurisdiction operations everyday through organisations such as Frontex, Europol and Interpol without any of these concerns.

alaimacerc · 29-06-2018 9:09am

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Yeah but this is the difference between area manager and CEO. And his rank is in the title of the thread.

In fairness, they're all pretty big differences!

Hammar · 29-06-2018 9:24am

I know there were many good police officers in the RUC,whom despised the terrorists of both sides and despised those RUC and other British security force members who were up to their necks in terrorism. (Glennane Gang et al)

From reading Stephen Travers tweets and some of stuff the Relatives for Justice, I'm not sure if this appointment was wise...

29-06-2018 6:35pm

Drifter50 wrote: »

I would find that very hard to believe, Belfast is the largest conurbation in NI and is becoming quite cosmopolitan now ( not just Catholic/Prod) To say over 50% of everyone in NI under 40 describe themselves as Catholics seems to be over the top. Where did you see this info

On the Wikipedia page, Demography of Northern Ireland, under the heading 'The religious affiliations in the different age bands in the 2011 census were as follows:' is an astonishing table where there are more Catholics than Protestants in NI at every age level under 40. This is definitely an existential crisis for James Craig's self-declared 'Protestant state for a Protestant people'.

Because some people, nationalists as well as unionists, are asleep to this reality doesn't negate it. It's time all Irish people woke up to the massive demographic shift in the North, and how the very surprising variable of Brexit is currently speeding up the recreation of a single Irish state. We live in very interesting times.

Spanish Eyes · 29-06-2018 6:51pm

Leaving aside for the moment all the genuine concerns some people have expressed about this appointment, I am curious as to who would have made a "good appointment" Well certainly not anyone from the current gene pool that's for sure.

TBH, despite some people's reservations, I'd say he is well aware of the situation he is heading into, yet he applied, and was selected. What might be of interest is who else applied and got to interview stage? I think that might be protected under some privacy legislation or something though, and I doubt an FOI request would yield that information. Would anyone know?

Anyway, this is who we've got. The man is no fool, and as long as he is a really good manager and can clean out the top ranks and bring his own admin team with him, you'd never know.

It's five years. Probably extendable if he shows he is making good progress.

My comment may not be welcomed by some, but I say give the man a chance and let's see.

Del.Monte · 29-06-2018 7:22pm

Deleted User wrote: »

On the Wikipedia page, Demography of Northern Ireland, under the heading 'The religious affiliations in the different age bands in the 2011 census were as follows:' is an astonishing table where there are more Catholics than Protestants in NI at every age level under 40. This is definitely an existential crisis for James Craig's self-declared 'Protestant state for a Protestant people'.

Because some people, nationalists as well as unionists, are asleep to this reality doesn't negate it. It's time all Irish people woke up to the massive demographic shift in the North, and how the very surprising variable of Brexit is currently speeding up the recreation of a single Irish state. We live in very interesting times.

Because you wish to believe that Catholics outnumbering Protestants will automatically result in a majority in favour of unity doesn't make it a fact. Anyway, assuming there was a majority - no matter how small - in favour of unity would the trouble(s) that would follow really be worth it?

Junkyard Tom · 29-06-2018 8:59pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

would the trouble(s) that would follow

Nobody has ever given me a cogent answer as to what ends this predicted trouble would be.

Independent six counties? Forget it.
Repartition? Forget it
Force the British to take them back? How?

Del.Monte · 29-06-2018 10:34pm

There doesn't need to be an endgame - the trouble would come from those who oppose unity regardless of whether there are alternative options. Playing out the sectarian head count until the day that nationalist voters outnumber unionist ones is madness and the various calls for border polls are just stoking things up.

At the end of the day the Republic has moved so far from Dev's Four Green Fields that it's only the hardliners that yearn for a United Ireland. It's just my opinion but it's what I've observed changing over the years - it used to be that scratch an Irish person hard enough and beneath the surface there was this ingrained dream of unity. That day has passed along with the introduction of abortion, gay marriage etc.- most people have moved on. Just my opinion and probably incorrect as I'm from the other side.

Junkyard Tom · 29-06-2018 10:43pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

There doesn't need to be an endgame.

So just shoot people because... ?

Playing out the sectarian head count until the day that nationalist voters outnumber unionist ones is madness

Double standards. Frankly, I don't see why anyone should give a damn if a statelet that was created, and enabled, by a sectarian headcount is finished by its reverse. Tough.

Taytoland · 29-06-2018 10:51pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

There doesn't need to be an endgame - the trouble would come from those who oppose unity regardless of whether there are alternative options. Playing out the sectarian head count until the day that nationalist voters outnumber unionist ones is madness and the various calls for border polls are just stoking things up.

At the end of the day the Republic has moved so far from Dev's Four Green Fields that it's only the hardliners that yearn for a United Ireland. It's just my opinion but it's what I've observed changing over the years - it used to be that scratch an Irish person hard enough and beneath the surface there was this ingrained dream of unity. That day has passed along with the introduction of abortion, gay marriage etc.- most people have moved on. Just my opinion and probably incorrect as I'm from the other side.

Fully agree with this.

archer22 · 29-06-2018 10:55pm

How about some in the south just learn to leave the Northern state in peace and stop poking this potential hornets nest with sticks.
They are not trying to force us into any state we don't want...maybe we should extend the same courtesy to them.
It could come under the heading of just plain good manners!!

30-06-2018 12:29am

Del.Monte wrote: »

Because you wish to believe that Catholics outnumbering Protestants will automatically result in a majority in favour of unity doesn't make it a fact. Anyway, assuming there was a majority - no matter how small - in favour of unity would the trouble(s) that would follow really be worth it?

This old canard from pre-Brexit days when well over 60% of the population of NI was describing itself as "Protestant". Now, only 48% (and very much declining) of the population of NI describe themselves as "Protestant" and Catholics outnumber Protestants at all stages under 40 years of age. And growing support for reunification has nothing to do with this? And what's the Unionist "economic argument", and what's the unionist argument for social and liberal reform? And what's the most popular party in the Unionist community and what's its history and beliefs? No thanks: the past (to put it kindly). As the consequences of Brexit really sink in north of the border, not one but two polls this month have seen support for the reunification of Ireland surge.

1. BBC poll: 42% of people in the North want a united Ireland (8 June 2018)

2. A new poll by Lord Ashcroft Polls has revealed 44 percent of Northern Irish residents would vote in favour of quitting the UK and joining the Republic if a referendum was held tomorrow...(19 June 2018)

While this is the changing internal situation within NI, it seems incontrovertibly clearer that over in England the hardline Brexiters are going to be, irony of ironies, the ones pushing NI's Unionists out of the UK. They are getting ready to sell Unionists out, right now, as they've finally realised that they won't get their hard Brexit for as long as there's a border in Ireland. You could not invent this self-inflicted calamity for Unionism in NI, this spectacular own goal by the DUP and other supporters of Brexit in NI. They just did not see it coming. Stunning:

1. Leave voters would rather lose Northern Ireland than give up the benefits of Brexit (19 June 2018)

2. Only one in three British voters said they could not accept a different status for Northern Ireland after Brexit and six out of 10 Leave voters said that leaving the EU was more important than keeping the United Kingdom together.

Let's face it, for progressive unionists there's a choice here between joining the rest of Ireland as part of the largest free trade bloc in the world and being part of a comparatively very progressive, modern and dynamic Irish state, or being part of a "British" community where the DUP continues to be the most popular political party and talk about the "civil liberties" of the "Glorious Revolution" of 1689 is much more important than giving civil liberties to people in 2018. Many unionists, such as people in this BBC interview, are increasingly unhappy about where the DUP is bringing them, and Dublin looks much more dynamic and settled than the chaos and uncertainty of London and its decidedly hideous and opportunistic populists in power bringing them all over the cliff into the unknown.

30-06-2018 12:30am

archer22 wrote: »

How about some in the south just learn to leave the Northern state in peace and stop poking this potential hornets nest with sticks.

So, just to get clarity on your understanding of democracy - when a majority in the already gerrymandered statelet of NI want Irish reunification, we should prevent that and keep them in a state against their wishes just to keep the "peace"?

alaimacerc · 30-06-2018 12:41am

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Leaving aside for the moment all the genuine concerns some people have expressed about this appointment, I am curious as to who would have made a "good appointment" Well certainly not anyone from the current gene pool that's for sure.

Here's the thing, I'm sure many of the people complaining sincerely have their own individual theories as to what sort of person would genuinely, clearly have been better. Keep on trying with internal AGS candidates -- there must be a pony in here! A Yank. A civilian. An actual Brit. Someone from the rest of the EU. Would everyone have been happy with any of those? No, of course not. But each of those would cheese off different people. So you'd likely be getting about the same out of carping, just from different people, using a different set of cliches.

Personally I think a Nordie might be the least worst option. The last "insider" seemed like an excellent appointee -- look how that turned out. Any of the other options are going to be a still-bigger culture clash, both in the Guards and in the populace in general. Look at the daggers-drawn relationship with GSOC, for example, stuffed as it is with Brits and civvies.

But least worst might still be pretty bad.

Mikenesson · 30-06-2018 10:34am

Can't see the problem at all

It's the obvious thing to do ,bring in someone from the nearest jurisdiction and a reforming police force at that

Dr Brown · 02-07-2018 2:58pm

D Trent wrote: »

And what's wrong with Conor McGregors credentials??

Padraig Nally and Conor McGregor would make a great team.

We could have Padraig Nally as the Garda Commissioner and Conor McGregor as his enforcer.

D Trent · 19-08-2018 1:34am

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/high-court-challenge-launched-over-choice-of-new-garda-commissioner-862868.html

High Court challenge launched over choice of new Garda Commissioner

Kristopherus · 19-08-2018 1:39am

D Trent wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/high-court-challenge-launched-over-choice-of-new-garda-commissioner-862868.html

High Court challenge launched over choice of new Garda Commissioner

The cat would really be among the pigeons if that action succeeds.

ohnonotgmail · 22-08-2018 4:53pm

well that didnt take long https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/legal-challenge-against-new-garda-commissioner-dismissed-by-high-court-37241136.html

Real Rad · 09-09-2018 2:56pm

Religion is a mere distraction, the issue is allegiance. It is ironic that coming to Brexit, a man whose oath states ' I do solemnly and sincerely declare and affirm that I will well and truly serve Our Sovereign Lady the Queen in the office of constable, without fear or affection, malice or ill will; and that I will to the best of my power cause the peace to be kept and preserved and prevent all offences against the persons and properties of Her Majesty's subjects', not to mention his oath to MI5 has now effectively taken control of policing our borders. Just shows how thick the Oirish really are.

On the issue of N. Ireland, it was Mr Harris who stopped all investigations into murders committed by RUC, (including those who took part in the Dublin and Monaghan bombings) by withdrawing funding.

In his recent statement to the Belfast Telegraph Mr Harris states that the biggest threat to the Irish people are dissident republicans. Now, forgive me, but the last time I looked at the news most people murdered in the Republic were as a result of drugs and the Kinnahan Hutch feud. And I haven't even considered rural crime there

Lastly, I genuinely see the funny side of some murals I passed by in Northern Ireland the other day. RUC - PSNI - Garda - Spot the difference!

DChancer · 09-09-2018 3:24pm

Delighted we finally have a profesdional modern and nononsense Garda Commissioner

yourdeadwright · 12-09-2018 4:32pm

I thought this was a great idea until I read him saying " the biggest threat to the Irish people are dissident republicans "
This is simply not true, Stevie wonder could see the biggest problem is the drug gangs,
Then I read about him and his father was killed by the IRA in the 80's so quite obviously he is mislead by events of the past and that is not what the country needs in the leader of the Garda ,
They have been stuck in the past for about 25 years now , incapable of dealing with todays issues, We need someone to take them forward for back,
His comment baffle's me ,dissident republicans are far down the list of problems facing the Irish people n current times,

yourdeadwright · 12-09-2018 4:34pm

DChancer wrote: »

Delighted we finally have a profesdional modern and nononsense Garda Commissioner

Modern is the opposite to "that the biggest threat to the Irish people are dissident republicans "
He is stuck in a time warp.

Iv no issue with where he's come from it's his idea's that baffle me ,

yourdeadwright · 12-09-2018 4:51pm

Real Rad wrote: »

Religion is a mere distraction, the issue is allegiance. It is ironic that coming to Brexit, a man whose oath states ' I do solemnly and sincerely declare and affirm that I will well and truly serve Our Sovereign Lady the Queen in the office of constable, without fear or affection, malice or ill will; and that I will to the best of my power cause the peace to be kept and preserved and prevent all offences against the persons and properties of Her Majesty's subjects', not to mention his oath to MI5 has now effectively taken control of policing our borders. Just shows how thick the Oirish really are.

On the issue of N. Ireland, it was Mr Harris who stopped all investigations into murders committed by RUC, (including those who took part in the Dublin and Monaghan bombings) by withdrawing funding.

In his recent statement to the Belfast Telegraph Mr Harris states that the biggest threat to the Irish people are dissident republicans. Now, forgive me, but the last time I looked at the news most people murdered in the Republic were as a result of drugs and the Kinnahan Hutch feud. And I haven't even considered rural crime there

Lastly, I genuinely see the funny side of some murals I passed by in Northern Ireland the other day. RUC - PSNI - Garda - Spot the difference!

The van used in the raid this morning b y the " Garda" was and English reg with no tax,insurance or VRT,
Same Van, same reg can be seen in various pictures as an tactical aid unit used by the Greater Manchester Police ,
New commissioner already has some explaining to do

Paulzx · 12-09-2018 4:52pm

Dr Brown wrote: »

Padraig Nally and Conor McGregor would make a great team.

We could have Padraig Nally as the Garda Commissioner and Conor McGregor as his enforcer.

In fairness Nally's shotgun trumps McGregors right hook every time. I think he can take care of himself:)

mynamejeff · 12-09-2018 4:58pm

yourdeadwright wrote: »

The van used in the raid this morning b y the " Garda" was and English reg with no tax,insurance or VRT,
Same Van, same reg can be seen in various pictures as an tactical aid unit used by the Greater Manchester Police ,
New commissioner already has some explaining to do

any evidence or proof for this or ????????

in fact a NI reg van used by the private security company contracted to secure the building whose owners are N Irish .

or according to some nuts it was ERU and Army rangers . (Actually public order unit of course )

yourdeadwright · 12-09-2018 5:03pm

mynamejeff wrote: »

yourdeadwright wrote: »

The van used in the raid this morning b y the " Garda" was and English reg with no tax,insurance or VRT,
Same Van, same reg can be seen in various pictures as an tactical aid unit used by the Greater Manchester Police ,
New commissioner already has some explaining to do

any evidence or proof for this or ????????

in fact a NI reg van used by the private security company contracted to secure the building whose owners are N Irish .

or according to some nuts it was ERU and Army rangers . (Actually public order unit of course )

Its not a NI reg van,
Its quite easy to check it out UK reg check, it was last taxed in August 2014 by the Manchester police ,
An Garda Síochána is satisfied that the vehicle in question is tax and insurance compliant , said a Garda statement , A simple check on the website shows there lieing ,

mynamejeff · 12-09-2018 5:06pm

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Its not a NI reg van,
Its quite easy to check it out UK reg check, it was last taxed in August 2014 by the Manchester police ,
An Garda Síochána is satisfied that the vehicle in question is tax and insurance compliant , said a Garda statement , A simple check on the website shows there lieing ,

so throw up the proof here then

ohnonotgmail · 12-09-2018 5:11pm

mynamejeff wrote: »

any evidence or proof for this or ????????

in fact a NI reg van used by the private security company contracted to secure the building whose owners are N .

or according to some nuts it was ERU and Army rangers . (Actually public order unit of course )

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Its not a NI reg van,
Its quite easy to check it out UK reg check, it was last taxed in August 2014 by the Manchester police ,
An Garda Síochána is satisfied that the vehicle in question is tax and insurance compliant , said a Garda statement , A simple check on the website shows there lieing ,

scratch that. had the uk and ni formats reversed in my head. definitely a UK reg.

blanch152 · 12-09-2018 5:13pm

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Its not a NI reg van,
Its quite easy to check it out UK reg check, it was last taxed in August 2014 by the Manchester police ,
An Garda Síochána is satisfied that the vehicle in question is tax and insurance compliant , said a Garda statement , A simple check on the website shows there lieing ,

Quite ironic to see people who have been committing violent crimes against property, invading and seriously damaging, as well as physical resistance of the lawful actions of the Gardai, then complaining about a missing tax disc on a van.

ohnonotgmail · 12-09-2018 5:16pm

pic of reg below. I read it as MX06WGA but the dvla database doesnt have a vehicle of that reg.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 12-09-2018 5:18pm

Deleted User wrote: »

On the Wikipedia page, Demography of Northern Ireland, under the heading 'The religious affiliations in the different age bands in the 2011 census were as follows:' is an astonishing table where there are more Catholics than Protestants in NI at every age level under 40. This is definitely an existential crisis for James Craig's self-declared 'Protestant state for a Protestant people'.

Because some people, nationalists as well as unionists, are asleep to this reality doesn't negate it. It's time all Irish people woke up to the massive demographic shift in the North, and how the very surprising variable of Brexit is currently speeding up the recreation of a single Irish state. We live in very interesting times.

But sure it's not a cat, prod thing, its nat, unionist.

Many middle class Catholics for instance are not nationalists.

yourdeadwright · 12-09-2018 5:19pm

There u go

Odhinn · 12-09-2018 5:22pm

Mikenesson wrote: »

Can't see the problem at all

It's the obvious thing to do ,bring in someone from the nearest jurisdiction and a reforming police force at that

Bring in a civillian would have been the best option. Alas.

Are Am Eye · 12-09-2018 5:23pm

yourdeadwright wrote: »

There u go

We no longer pay taxes motor or otherwise to the english govt (since 1922)
State vehicles have fleet policies of insurance and cop cars are exempt from tax. Probably exempt on the basis that the state paying tax to itself is a bit pointless.

ohnonotgmail · 12-09-2018 5:24pm

yourdeadwright wrote: »

There u go

and this

it was last taxed in August 2014 by the Manchester police

where is the reference to manchester police?

yourdeadwright · 12-09-2018 5:25pm

Same van,same rEg

yourdeadwright · 12-09-2018 5:26pm

Are Am Eye wrote: »

yourdeadwright wrote: »

There u go

We no longer pay taxes motor or otherwise to the english govt (since 1922)
State vehicles have fleet policies of insurance and cop cars are exempt from tax. Probably exempt on the basis that the state paying tax to itself is a bit pointless.

But why use a English police Van ?

ohnonotgmail · 12-09-2018 5:26pm

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Same van,same rEg

So it was a police vehicle at one stage and they sold it off to its currents owners.

yourdeadwright · 12-09-2018 5:28pm

Are Am Eye wrote: »

yourdeadwright wrote: »

There u go

We no longer pay taxes motor or otherwise to the english govt (since 1922)
State vehicles have fleet policies of insurance and cop cars are exempt from tax. Probably exempt on the basis that the state paying tax to itself is a bit pointless.

To be clear the Garda claimed it was not them it was a private company, Garda where only there to just keep the peace, , So it should be taxed ,and its not taxed so they lied ,
This is all in a public Garda statement,

blanch152 · 12-09-2018 5:29pm

yourdeadwright wrote: »

There u go

Even the Journal agrees that the Gardai don't have to tax their vehicles.

http://www.thejournal.ie/motor-tax-garda-bike-exempt-893459-May2013/

Pity that we have to kill that little bit of excitement among the protestors.

ohnonotgmail · 12-09-2018 5:30pm

yourdeadwright wrote: »

To be clear the Garda claimed it was not them it was a private company, Garda where only there to just keep the peace, , So it should be taxed ,and its not taxed so they lied ,
This is all in a public Garda statement,

The gardai have no way of knowing if an english vehicle is taxed.

yourdeadwright · 12-09-2018 5:31pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Same van,same rEg

So it was a police vehicle at one stage and they sold it off to its currents owners.

New Mi5 related Garda commissioner then this Police van turns up ,
If it was a private company and Garda (who where just there to keep the peace ) where told at the scene by the public it wasn't tax or insured why didn't they act ?
Why lie in there public statement that it was taxed and insured when it isn't ?

yourdeadwright · 12-09-2018 5:32pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

yourdeadwright wrote: »

To be clear the Garda claimed it was not them it was a private company, Garda where only there to just keep the peace, , So it should be taxed ,and its not taxed so they lied ,
This is all in a public Garda statement,

The gardai have no way of knowing if an english vehicle is taxed.

That's why your required to have proof of it , if your driving the vehicle in the REP

ohnonotgmail · 12-09-2018 5:34pm

yourdeadwright wrote: »

That's why your required to have proof of it , if your driving the vehicle in the REP

I'm sure you are required to provide proof if asked. I think the gardai there were a bit busy keeping public order to check. no great conspiracy.

12-09-2018 5:34pm

tigger123 wrote: »

I've never understood this line of thinking. Why is it such a difficulty to have someone from another jurisdiction head up the police force? What exactly is the danger in this?

Because our police force, unlike other modern forces, also oversees national security and associated intelligence.

I'm not sure anyone in the UK would be too keen on an Irish Garda heading up MI5, I wouldn't blame them, and I'd hardly call them paranoid for having real concern about that.

blanch152 · 12-09-2018 5:35pm

yourdeadwright wrote: »

That's why your required to have proof of it , if your driving the vehicle in the REP

I am sure that when the Gardai have recovered from being battered and bruised by idiotic protesters committing multiple offences that they will follow up on a missing tax disc.

Odhinn · 12-09-2018 5:35pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Because our police force, unlike other modern forces, also oversees national security and associated intelligence.

.........

A situation which should be addressed, as it places far too much power in the one place.

ohnonotgmail · 12-09-2018 5:36pm

blanch152 wrote: »

I am sure that when the Gardai have recovered from being battered and bruised by idiotic protesters committing multiple offences that they will follow up on a missing tax disc.

The UK dont use tax discs and haven;t for a while. I'm not sure what evidence a UK driver would even have that a vehicle is taxed.

Drew Harris appointed Garda commissioner.

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