Dublin ranks 3rd in terms of the amount of time spent in cars due to congestion

cdaly_ · 05-03-2019 10:50am

John_Rambo wrote: »

Hello Ireland 1974! Imagine... Children cycling or even WALKING to school, people WALKING to the shops or god forbid... WALKING from the bus TO WORK!!

You mean like fitter, healthier people WALKING to the shops and even STOPPING for a CHAT* with their neighbours!

* When was the last time you stopped for a chat with anybody mid-journey?

LeinsterDub · 05-03-2019 10:55am

sharper wrote: »

Thankfully pedestrian access is usually pretty decent throughout Dublin though crossings can be a hassle.

Busconnects covers cycling as well as bus improvements, the cycling improvements aren't universally loved though. Motorbikes were mentioned above but I think ebikes could really change things for commuting if there was a proper push and people could use them safely without having to mingle with road traffic.

Pedestrian access is terrible in Dublin especially if you're a person with mobility or visual issues. Cars , bikes and vans illegally parked everywhere . Advertising and traffics signs everywhere.

Cuffe St for example takes 3 minutes to cross if you follow the pedestrian lights.

The BusConnection cycling "improvements" are a joke

amcalester · 05-03-2019 10:55am

This thread is gas; the reason motorists are sitting in their cars for hours a day is because there's too many cyclists.

Cyclists who leave their house later and get to work quicker than motorists are the cause of the congestion, riiiiiight.

Beta Ray Bill · 05-03-2019 11:01am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

We have more than 1500 premature deaths each year here due to poor air quality. People who cycle to work have half the cancer rates of the general population.

There is a compelling case.

I read this before, this is an EPA report, It states the problem areas are small towns and villages burning fossil fuels, for home heating.

There is mention of cars producing NO2, but does not say that NO2 contributes to the number of deaths, only that we are approaching an EU limit.

It should also be noted that the weather in Ireland in quite favorable for dispersion of air pollution.

sharper wrote: »

If the bus service is at capacity then bus capacity is the limiting factor. If buses are also the most efficient means of moving the most people then obviously they need to be prioritised for investment.

when I say Bus service is at capacity I'm not just talk about the number of buses.
Buying new buses and hiring drivers is easy.

I'm talking about the fact that on many of the main roads in and out of Dublin, there are sections of the roads that have no Bus lane (Howth Road, Terenure Road, Old Cabra Road, etc).
I know there is a Bus Connect process to buy land from people to widen the roads, but this is going to cost a fortune. I know if it was my front garden, I'd be looking for 5 times what the land is actually worth (IE Pay off my Mortgage)

In Places like the Cabra Road and Terenure Road, there is no front garden. which means they'll have to buy the house and demolish it. Again, I'd be looking for ALOT more than what it's worth.
If everyone bands together on the road and says "No", There is very little the government will be able to do about it.

I'm also talking about the fact that Bus only areas in Town such as College Green are at capacity, they've had to re route buses from there as the traffic (which is only Buses) at rush hour is so bad.

Parts of the Clontarf road they have taken away a Bus lane and put in a dedicated cycle track (I will say the cycle track is great!)
But they could have just widened the road and put in the Cycle lane and a bus lane each way.

We've a very long way to go.

LeinsterDub · 05-03-2019 11:15am

grahambo wrote: »

I know there is a Bus Connect process to buy land from people to widen the roads, but this is going to cost a fortune. I know if it was my front garden, I'd be looking for 5 times what the land is actually worth (IE Pay off my Mortgage)

We've a very long way to go.

Selfish car driver would be selfish when it comes to PT improvements , then complains nothing is changing shocker!

sharper · 05-03-2019 11:25am

grahambo wrote: »

I know there is a Bus Connect process to buy land from people to widen the roads, but this is going to cost a fortune. I know if it was my front garden, I'd be looking for 5 times what the land is actually worth (IE Pay off my Mortgage)

Luckily that's not how CPO works. It doesn't matter what you want for it, you'll get the market rate and likely a bit more but nobody will be paying off the mortgage for their entire property with it.

Otherwise anyone anywhere could block necessary infrastructure development waiting for the government to pay them millions because they feel like it. It would even make sense for funds to buy up land where infrastructure is likely to be needed and then wait for the return on investment.

CatInABox · 05-03-2019 11:27am

grahambo wrote: »

I'm talking about the fact that on many of the main roads in and out of Dublin, there are sections of the roads that have no Bus lane (Howth Road, Terenure Road, Old Cabra Road, etc).
I know there is a Bus Connect process to buy land from people to widen the roads, but this is going to cost a fortune. I know if it was my front garden, I'd be looking for 5 times what the land is actually worth (IE Pay off my Mortgage)

The level of compensation will be above market rate to entice people to accept the offer, but it won't be crazy money. If you don't accept the offer, then CPO proceedings begin. The CPO value will be significantly less than the compensation offer.

grahambo wrote: »

In Places like the Cabra Road and Terenure Road, there is no front garden. which means they'll have to buy the house and demolish it. Again, I'd be looking for ALOT more than what it's worth.
If everyone bands together on the road and says "No", There is very little the government will be able to do about it.

There is no part of the BusConnects plan that involves demolition of houses. Absolutely none.

Where there isn't space for bus and cycle lanes, the cycle lane is usually detoured.

grahambo wrote: »

I'm also talking about the fact that Bus only areas in Town such as College Green are at capacity, they've had to re route buses from there as the traffic (which is only Buses) at rush hour is so bad.

Indeed, this makes the case for more roads being made bus only. The bus gate at college green reduced the number of vehicles passing through, but increased the number of people using it.

grahambo wrote: »

Parts of the Clontarf road they have taken away a Bus lane and put in a dedicated cycle track (I will say the cycle track is great!)
But they could have just widened the road and put in the Cycle lane and a bus lane each way.

That's because there wasn't enough buses using Clontarf Road, or enough people living in the catchment area to justify having a bus lane there.

sharper · 05-03-2019 11:29am

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Pedestrian access is terrible in Dublin especially if you're a person with mobility or visual issues. Cars , bikes and vans illegally parked everywhere . Advertising and traffics signs everywhere.

Cuffe St for example takes 3 minutes to cross if you follow the pedestrian lights.

The BusConnection cycling "improvements" are a joke

Decent is different to great. I wouldn't say pedestrian access in Dublin is great but it is decent. I don't think we would be proposing someone with mobility issues should be commuting to work on foot anyway.

You need to consider what terrible pedestrian access looks like which is like the US where footpaths often literally don't exist.

Please don't let perfect be the enemy of good here - busconnects could certainly improve cycling more than it is but there is limited space and limited resources. This is part of the problem of why it's near impossible to deliver anything.

AndrewJRenko · 05-03-2019 11:29am

grahambo wrote: »

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

We have more than 1500 premature deaths each year here due to poor air quality. People who cycle to work have half the cancer rates of the general population.

There is a compelling case.

I read this before, this is an EPA report, It states the problem areas are small towns and villages burning fossil fuels, for home heating.

There is mention of cars producing NO2, but does not say that NO2 contributes to the number of deaths, only that we are approaching an EU limit.

It should also be noted that the weather in Ireland in quite favorable for dispersion of air pollution.

From http://www.epa.ie/pubs/reports/air/quality/epaairqualityreport2017.html section titled "Problem pollutants"

Particulate matter from solid fuel burning remains the greatest threat to good air quality in Ireland.
• This is closely followed by nitrogen dioxide from transport emissions in our urban areas.

From What Should Be Done section

Air pollution from transport can be reduced by reducing the number of journeys made using diesel and petrol vehicles.

Qrt · 05-03-2019 11:31am

CatInABox wrote: »

The level of compensation will be above market rate to entice people to accept the offer, but it won't be crazy money. If you don't accept the offer, then CPO proceedings begin. The CPO value will be significantly less than the compensation offer.

There is no part of the BusConnects plan that involves demolition of houses. Absolutely none.

Where there isn't space for bus and cycle lanes, the cycle lane is usually detoured.

Indeed, this makes the case for more roads being made bus only. The bus gate at college green reduced the number of vehicles passing through, but increased the number of people using it.

That's because there wasn't enough buses using Clontarf Road, or enough people living in the catchment area to justify having a bus lane there.

Half the catchment area of the Clontarf Road are marine animals so having it as a main bus corridor doesn’t make much sense like.

LeinsterDub · 05-03-2019 11:31am

sharper wrote: »

Please don't let perfect be the enemy of good here - busconnects could certainly improve cycling more than it is but there is limited space and limited resources. This is part of the problem of why it's near impossible to deliver anything.

Can we let poor be the enemy of the good ? BC isn't good .

https://irishcycle.com/2019/03/03/how-busconnects-changes-the-roads-around-terenure-on-the-rathfarnham-route/

sharper · 05-03-2019 11:43am

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Can we let poor be the enemy of the good ? BC isn't good .

https://irishcycle.com/2019/03/03/how-busconnects-changes-the-roads-around-terenure-on-the-rathfarnham-route/

There are absolutely parts of the plan that will hopefully be improved, after all we're in the public consultation phase for exactly that reason. I'm personally happy we're in the middle of something that's at least aiming to improve cycling and currently iterating through the improvements needed.

I would put busconnects at a 50/50 chance of being delivered in anything close to its current form, everything else will be worse for public transport and worse for cyclists.

Saying the entire plan is bad for cycling is I major disservice I think and only decreases the chances of any improvements happening.

Beta Ray Bill · 05-03-2019 12:08pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Selfish car driver would be selfish when it comes to PT improvements , then complains nothing is changing shocker!

I use the DART, as I've already stated....

sharper wrote: »

Luckily that's not how CPO works.

If it's a large number of people then actually, it's exactly how this works...
It's political suicide for any TD that backs it too.

I get what you're saying though in that they need to offer above market rate to get the bulk of the people to accept and then CPO the rest. But it will need to be a VERY good offer.

sharper wrote: »

Otherwise anyone anywhere could block necessary infrastructure development waiting for the government to pay them millions because they feel like it.

This has happened before, but it wasn't over money. They just didn't want X going over their land and infra projects have been delayed in the past over this.

CatInABox wrote: »

There is no part of the BusConnects plan that involves demolition of houses. Absolutely none.

I understand this, the point I was trying to make is that some of the main roads into town just aren't wide enough and if they were Serious about improving the capacity every main road in and out of Town would a bus lane in and out and a cycle lane in and out.

CatInABox wrote: »

Where there isn't space for bus and cycle lanes, the cycle lane is usually detoured.

Then the cyclists wont use the lane (which I'm fine with btw, they have the right to use the road), so it's kind of pointless

CatInABox wrote: »

Indeed, this makes the case for more roads being made bus only. The bus gate at college green reduced the number of vehicles passing through, but increased the number of people using it.

Well it was grand until the Luas came along! :pac:
My point is that it's backed up now and the buses need to go elsewhere (which does as you say make a case for another "Bus Area" in town)

The problem people don't seem to get is that Irish people like their cars.
And people are prepared to sit in them for long periods of time despite there being alternatives that requires a small bit of planning/exercise/time management.

You could tax the crap out of them similar to the M50 but people will still use their cars.
2,000 cars a day were using the port tunnel when it first opened
Today, 20,000 Vehicles use it per day, there is only around 85,000 HGV's entitled to use it for free in the whole of Ireland... you do the maths.

I'd imagine even if you put a congestion charge in Dublin it wouldn't even make a dent in the number of cars coming into Dublin.
All you'll do it make people poorer, which is bad enough as it is.

I don't pretend to have a solution to the traffic problem, I don't know the answer, as the problem has been left unchecked for a very long time. But what I do know is that light touch changes like buying a small piece of people's gardens to put a bus lane on some of the roads into (Not out of) Dublin is not going to work.
A drastic change is needed that:
1) Won't harm business in the city
2) Won't mess up the exchequer
3) Get's people where they want to go fast and cheap and in relative comfort/safety

LeinsterDub · 05-03-2019 12:43pm

sharper wrote: »

Saying the entire plan is bad for cycling is I major disservice I think and only decreases the chances of any improvements happening.

Fair enough a lot of the elements of the public consultation I've seen are bad. We can only hope for better

LeinsterDub · 05-03-2019 12:52pm

grahambo wrote: »

A drastic change is needed that:
1) Won't harm business in the city
2) Won't mess up the exchequer
3) Get's people where they want to go fast and cheap and in relative comfort/safety

That sounds like cycling to me.

Beta Ray Bill · 05-03-2019 1:42pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

That sounds like cycling to me.

It'd be to much of a loss to the Exchequer in terms of amount of money spent on Cars.

Also in the p***ing rain and cold of winter it's not at all comfortable.

Cycling is more of a lifestyle choice rather than a commuting choice, you gain the ability to commute via cycling if you make that lifestyle choice, not the other way around, as it's not sustainable. IE if you don't like cycling then commuting is gonna be hell for you.

I gave the cycling thing a bash for a year, I had to admit it was enjoyable for me as I'm fairly into fitness. But I can understand why a hell of a a lot of people would not do it.
I ended up moving to right beside that DART which is why I stopped.

Thargor · 05-03-2019 1:51pm

amcalester wrote: »

This thread is gas; the reason motorists are sitting in their cars for hours a day is because there's too many cyclists.

Cyclists who leave their house later and get to work quicker than motorists are the cause of the congestion, riiiiiight.

Didn't you hear? It's all because of the Minister for Transport and his departments massive ''cycling fetish''. The main Donald Trump supporter from the Politics Forum said it so you know it must be true...

LeinsterDub · 05-03-2019 2:04pm

grahambo wrote: »

It'd be to much of a loss to the Exchequer in terms of amount of money spent on Cars.

Car cost the exchequer far more than they provide to the exchequer due to environmental damage , health damage and congestion. This is simply fact

grahambo wrote: »

Also in the p***ing rain and cold of winter it's not at all comfortable.

Fairly rarely rains in when your cycling . Winters aren't that cold

grahambo wrote: »

I
Cycling is more of a lifestyle choice rather than a commuting choice, you gain the ability to commute via cycling if you make that lifestyle choice, not the other way around, as it's not sustainable. IE if you don't like cycling then commuting is gonna be hell for you.

No it's a commuting choice. Do you think people who choose sitting in traffic for hours enjoy it? I'd love my cycle to work but I prefer it more than 90 minutes on the bus

AndrewJRenko · 05-03-2019 2:07pm

grahambo wrote: »

LeinsterDub wrote: »

That sounds like cycling to me.

It'd be to much of a loss to the Exchequer in terms of amount of money spent on Cars.

I guess the countries that are paying cyclists to cycle might have a different view

Public health benefits, reduced emissions, reduced traffic - what's not to like?
https://www.welovecycling.com/wide/2015/10/16/its-official-french-will-get-paid-for-cycling-to-work/

Beta Ray Bill · 05-03-2019 2:28pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I guess the countries that are paying cyclists to cycle might have a different view

Public health benefits, reduced emissions, reduced traffic - what's not to like?
https://www.welovecycling.com/wide/2015/10/16/its-official-french-will-get-paid-for-cycling-to-work/

You've give an example country, where 300,000 people brought the capital (and other major cities) to a halt because of service cuts and extra taxes, less than 6 months ago.
Which is exactly what will happen here if everyone were to stop using there cars and create a massive hole in the Exchequer OR if we started taxing motorists even more to drive their cars.

France is not a good example for anything like that.

In any case the bike to work scheme has been very successful.
Basically €510 back every 5 years which isn't bad.

LeinsterDub · 05-03-2019 2:51pm

grahambo wrote: »

You've give an example country, where 300,000 people brought the capital (and other major cities) to a halt because of service cuts and extra taxes, less than 6 months ago.
Which is exactly what will happen here if everyone were to stop using there cars and create a massive hole in the Exchequer OR if we started taxing motorists even more to drive their cars.

France is not a good example for anything like that.

In any case the bike to work scheme has been very successful.
Basically €510 back every 5 years which isn't bad.

You've made a lot of claims here. How about some facts ?

magicbastarder · 05-03-2019 2:57pm

grahambo wrote: »

It'd be to much of a loss to the Exchequer in terms of amount of money spent on Cars.

again, though, the money people don't spend on cars does not disappear into a black hole.

importing and burning petrol and diesel is not the same as importing another commodity like steel; the steel is turned into another product and generates value-added income and contributes to the economy.
burning petrol to get someone to work does very little to add to the economy if there's a usable alternative which allows them to commute in a different manner - the main effect of driving to work compared to another form of transport (in this context) is that we're pumping a lot of money abroad for the benefit of about 5% of the actual usable energy out of the petrol or diesel.

AndrewJRenko · 05-03-2019 3:07pm

grahambo wrote: »

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I guess the countries that are paying cyclists to cycle might have a different view

Public health benefits, reduced emissions, reduced traffic - what's not to like?
https://www.welovecycling.com/wide/2015/10/16/its-official-french-will-get-paid-for-cycling-to-work/

You've give an example country, where 300,000 people brought the capital (and other major cities) to a halt because of service cuts and extra taxes, less than 6 months ago.
Which is exactly what will happen here if everyone were to stop using there cars and create a massive hole in the Exchequer OR if we started taxing motorists even more to drive their cars.

France is not a good example for anything like that.

In any case the bike to work scheme has been very successful.
Basically €510 back every 5 years which isn't bad.

If you like, I can post similar examples from Belgium, Netherlands and Italy. The "beer for cycling" scheme in Bologna is particularly interesting. Do they meet your standards?

sharper · 05-03-2019 3:13pm

grahambo wrote: »

Cycling is more of a lifestyle choice rather than a commuting choice, you gain the ability to commute via cycling if you make that lifestyle choice, not the other way around, as it's not sustainable. IE if you don't like cycling then commuting is gonna be hell for you.

I gave the cycling thing a bash for a year, I had to admit it was enjoyable for me as I'm fairly into fitness. But I can understand why a hell of a a lot of people would not do it.
I ended up moving to right beside that DART which is why I stopped.

That's where e-bikes comes in, they allow people to get at least some of the advantages of cycling without it having to be a lifestyle or be particularly fit. It also means can people likely get to work without needing to shower and change

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/07/08/my-month-commuting-with-an-ebike-cleantechnica-exclusive/

I’m not a strong biker, and the first ebike I reviewed, the Gazelle Easyflow, gave me the confidence I needed to head out to make that commute the first few times. There is a a strong side wind that blows in from the ocean along the majority of the commute both ways and a headwind for part of it. The ebike doesn’t do all the work for me, but it does allow me to get where I’m going faster.

I can choose to ride in an easier gear, with no assist from the electric motor, all the way up to high assist. I typically ride with the high assist when I’m commuting and still end up sweating a bit by the time I get to the coffee shop. I could take it easier and take a few extra minutes but I like the workout. It’s half the point, after all.

The m50 is looking more like a car park every day, there's just no way to keep things going and have everyone take their private car to work.

cdaly_ · 05-03-2019 3:21pm

grahambo wrote: »

I'm also talking about the fact that Bus only areas in Town such as College Green are at capacity, they've had to re route buses from there as the traffic (which is only Buses) at rush hour is so bad.

I think that's because taxis are allowed use it also.

Beta Ray Bill · 05-03-2019 3:25pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

again, though, the money people don't spend on cars does not disappear into a black hole.

importing and burning petrol and diesel is not the same as importing another commodity like steel; the steel is turned into another product and generates value-added income and contributes to the economy.
burning petrol to get someone to work does very little to add to the economy if there's a usable alternative which allows them to commute in a different manner - the main effect of driving to work compared to another form of transport (in this context) is that we're pumping a lot of money abroad for the benefit of about 5% of the actual usable energy out of the petrol or diesel.

I agree with you in that we are pumping money abroad, however over half the money you spend on fuel is Tax.
So it will hit the exchequer one way of the other.

EG:
If I spend €100 on fuel the exchequer gets around €60
If I spend €100 on clothes, electronic equipment, etc they'll get less than €25
If I spend €100 on whole foods they'll get less than €5

So in each case the money was spent, but the Tax taken differ greatly

As I've already mentioned this is coming whether we like it or not with the introduction of electric cars.
I'd imagine the price of electricity will increase rapidly over the next few years as more and more cars come onto the grid.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

If you like, I can post similar examples from Belgium, Netherlands and Italy. The "beer for cycling" scheme in Bologna is particularly interesting. Do they meet your standards?

I wasn't trying to be smart with you, merely making a point that France wasn't a good example.
In fact having read a bit about your post it's the employer, not the government that will pay for people to cycle to work.

I get that most western EU countries have a cycle to work scheme, and that's a good thing.
We have one here in Ireland which I said was good.

But cycling isn't going to solve the problems related to congestion in Dublin.

amcalester · 05-03-2019 3:34pm

grahambo wrote: »

I agree with you in that we are pumping money abroad, however over half the money you spend on fuel is Tax.
So it will hit the exchequer one way of the other.

EG:
If I spend €100 on fuel the exchequer gets around €60
If I spend €100 on clothes, electronic equipment, etc they'll get less than €25
If I spend €100 on whole foods they'll get less than €5

So in each case the money was spent, but the Tax taken differ greatly

The money spent clothes, food electronic equipment is being used to employ more people than the money spent on diesel/petro (directly anyway) who in turn will spend their money in local shops etc - so it's not as simple as saying the tax take will be down.

Total benefits to the economy could be higher.

LeinsterDub · 05-03-2019 3:34pm

grahambo wrote: »

But cycling isn't going to solve the problems related to congestion in Dublin.

How do you think Dublin would fair without Luas and Dart?

https://irishcycle.com/2017/07/30/more-residents-commute-by-bicycle-than-by-luas-and-dart-in-dublin-city-and-suburbs/

Beta Ray Bill · 05-03-2019 3:45pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

How do you think Dublin would fair without Luas and Dart?

https://irishcycle.com/2017/07/30/more-residents-commute-by-bicycle-than-by-luas-and-dart-in-dublin-city-and-suburbs/

Badly.
That article is before the Green line extension.
Dart and Luas "Catchment Area" is vastly smaller than the area of greater Dublin.

LeinsterDub · 05-03-2019 3:59pm

grahambo wrote: »

Badly.
That article is before the Green line extension.
Dart and Luas "Catchment Area" is vastly smaller than the area of greater Dublin.

So Dublin would fair badly with no Luas or Dart but the equivalent number of cyclist do nothing to ease congestion?

LeChienMefiant · 05-03-2019 4:20pm

sharper wrote: »

I don't think we would be proposing someone with mobility issues should be commuting to work on foot anyway.

Everyone needs to use footpaths at some stage of their commute. People with mobility issues and those with buggies should be free to use footpaths if they wish. I can confirm that provision for pedestrians is atrocious and way too much space is given over to private cars.

LeChienMefiant · 05-03-2019 4:23pm

grahambo wrote: »

You could tax the crap out of them similar to the M50 but people will still use their cars.
2,000 cars a day were using the port tunnel when it first opened
Today, 20,000 Vehicles use it per day, there is only around 85,000 HGV's entitled to use it for free in the whole of Ireland... you do the maths.

They're was no reduced rate for the DPT when it opened if I recall correctly. It is now only 3 euro off peak.

Beta Ray Bill · 05-03-2019 5:19pm

LeChienMefiant wrote: »

They're was no reduced rate for the DPT when it opened if I recall correctly. It is now only 3 euro off peak.

Aye, and 2000 cars a day still went through it.

LeinsterDub wrote: »

So Dublin would fair badly with no Luas or Dart but the equivalent number of cyclist do nothing to ease congestion?

You are clearly a keen cyclist, and that's great.
We are at capacity though, in that those who would choose to cycle into town are cycling into town.
Getting people to cycle that don't want to, is not going to work.

For example, if in the next year you introduced car bans from the canals north and south and told people they have to use public transport or cycle.

I'd be fine, as I use public transport.
You'd be fine, as you cycle.

The person who has used their car to get in and out of town for the last 10 years is not going to be fine.
There are a few things that could happen:
1) They'll live in town
2) They might cycle if they can get somewhere to live just outside the car exclusion zone.
3) They'll avoid travelling into town altogether
4) They'll use public transport

In the case of 1 and 2, property prices will rocket.
You'll be fine, you have your house, but your kids will be commuting in from the likes of Mullingar. As only the exceptionally wealthy will be afford to live in Dublin (this is happening right now in Dublin)

3 is the worst case scenario, people avoid coming into Dublin altogether, Retail business will be devastated. (This is why retailers in Cork are fighting against this so hard, and no, it's not the same as Henry St/Grafton St)
I myself fall into this bracket, If I could get a Job in an Industrial Estate/Business Park close to where I live I'd be laughing!

My next Job will not be in Dublin City.

4 wont last for people that have used their cars to get into town for year in the long term. They'll revert to 1, 2 or 3.

Ultimately:
You cannot force people to do something that they really don't want to do.
There are HEAPs of lazy fu*kers out there that don't want to cycle and don't want to be waiting at bus stops or standing on a Luas/DART.

There is no way you're gonna force them to use public transport or cycle unless it's easier than what they're currently doing.

cdaly_ · 05-03-2019 5:29pm

grahambo wrote: »

For example, if in the next year you introduced car bans from the canals north and south and told people they have to use public transport or cycle.

The person who has used their car to get in and out of town for the last 10 years is not going to be fine.
There are a few things that could happen:
1) They'll live in town
2) They might cycle if they can get somewhere to live just outside the car exclusion zone.
3) They'll avoid travelling into town altogether
4) They'll use public transport

5) They'll find the city much more pleasant to cycle in because it's not so 'dangerous'.

How many parents do you know who wouldn't let their children cycle to school because it's 'too dangerous'? Mostly it's 'too dangerous' because of all the parents driving their big cars to and from the schools...

AndrewJRenko · 05-03-2019 5:35pm

grahambo wrote: »

magicbastarder wrote: »

again, though, the money people don't spend on cars does not disappear into a black hole.

importing and burning petrol and diesel is not the same as importing another commodity like steel; the steel is turned into another product and generates value-added income and contributes to the economy.
burning petrol to get someone to work does very little to add to the economy if there's a usable alternative which allows them to commute in a different manner - the main effect of driving to work compared to another form of transport (in this context) is that we're pumping a lot of money abroad for the benefit of about 5% of the actual usable energy out of the petrol or diesel.

I agree with you in that we are pumping money abroad, however over half the money you spend on fuel is Tax.
So it will hit the exchequer one way of the other.

EG:
If I spend €100 on fuel the exchequer gets around €60
If I spend €100 on clothes, electronic equipment, etc they'll get less than €25
If I spend €100 on whole foods they'll get less than €5

So in each case the money was spent, but the Tax taken differ greatly

As I've already mentioned this is coming whether we like it or not with the introduction of electric cars.
I'd imagine the price of electricity will increase rapidly over the next few years as more and more cars come onto the grid.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

If you like, I can post similar examples from Belgium, Netherlands and Italy. The "beer for cycling" scheme in Bologna is particularly interesting. Do they meet your standards?

I wasn't trying to be smart with you, merely making a point that France wasn't a good example.
In fact having read a bit about your post it's the employer, not the government that will pay for people to cycle to work.

I get that most western EU countries

But cycling isn't going to solve the problems related to congestion in Dublin.

In fairness, these go a bit further than the bike purchase schemes. They really do encourage people to cycle.

You're right to say that cycling on it's own is not the solution. But it certainly can be front and centre at the heart of the solution, including better public transport and restrictions on private cars.

LeChienMefiant · 05-03-2019 5:48pm

It's not high tech, but walking could be playing a much bigger part in the modal mix. Particularly for kids going to school.

https://twitter.com/20splentyforus/status/1091737332259188736?s=19

magicbastarder · 05-03-2019 6:35pm

amcalester wrote: »

The money spent clothes, food electronic equipment is being used to employ more people than the money spent on diesel/petro (directly anyway) who in turn will spend their money in local shops etc - so it's not as simple as saying the tax take will be down.

Total benefits to the economy could be higher.

yep, i think the argument is that spending money in locally owned shop has seven times the benefits to the local community than spending it in a multinational.

L1011 · 05-03-2019 7:09pm

LeChienMefiant wrote: »

They're was no reduced rate for the DPT when it opened if I recall correctly. It is now only 3 euro off peak.

Was 3/6/9/12 at different times I think - price was cut after analysing whether the road network at that port end could take extra traffic. can dig up for definite later

downtheroad · 06-03-2019 10:25am

grahambo wrote: »

Ultimately:
You cannot force people to do something that they really don't want to do.
There are HEAPs of lazy fu*kers out there that don't want to cycle and don't want to be waiting at bus stops or standing on a Luas/DART.

I cycle into city centre from Dublin 5 and cannot get over the amount of single occupied cars that I pass every day on my commute. This is an area that is serviced by DART and bus, and I am passing these cars at 8.30am so I can't imagine they are all travelling through the city centre to the southside if they are aiming for a 9am start. It would be fascinating to survey these people as they sit in traffic going nowhere to ask where is their final destination and why they choose to travel by car.

Congestion charges inside the canals are badly needed. As another poster has mentioned there were many people using the port tunnel at peak prices when it came in. Charge drivers who drive into the city centre and give the proceeds to the NTA to subsidise public transport and improve cycling infrastructure, and maybe attitudes might just change.

Beta Ray Bill · 06-03-2019 10:49am

downtheroad wrote: »

I cycle into city centre from Dublin 5 and cannot get over the amount of single occupied cars that I pass every day on my commute. This is an area that is serviced by DART and bus, and I am passing these cars at 8.30am so I can't imagine they are all travelling through the city centre to the southside if they are aiming for a 9am start. It would be fascinating to survey these people as they sit in traffic going nowhere to ask where is their final destination and why they choose to travel by car.

I think this was done albeit a number of years ago.
The reasons the choose car include:
1) they're paying for a car to be on the road, so they're going to use it
2) they don't want to use public transport because they've to stand or wait or walk to the bus stop and it doesn't go to exactly where they want to go or have to use 2 mode of public transport.
3) They don't want to cycle.
4) They need to make multiple stops

downtheroad wrote: »

Congestion charges inside the canals are badly needed. As another poster has mentioned there were many people using the port tunnel at peak prices when it came in. Charge drivers who drive into the city centre and give the proceeds to the NTA to subsidise public transport and improve cycling infrastructure, and maybe attitudes might just change.

All this will do is make people poorer, people will cut back on other things before they give up the car.
In fact that Car will be the last thing they'll give up on.

cdaly_ wrote: »

5) They'll find the city much more pleasant to cycle in because it's not so 'dangerous'.

How many parents do you know who wouldn't let their children cycle to school because it's 'too dangerous'? Mostly it's 'too dangerous' because of all the parents driving their big cars to and from the schools...

The City isn't dangerous because of Cars.
The City is dangerous because of all the little scumbags and skobes knocking about.

I used to walk home from School on my own from 3rd class in primary school.
It was a 10 min walk through Kilbarrack (where the Snapper and the Van was filmed)
I was 8 or 9 years old at the time, people weren't aware of the dangers for kids at that time AND it was a hell of a lot safer back then.

Sure on the weekends you'd go out at 10am and wouldn't come back til 6pm for your dinner
Bare in mind there were no phones or anything around then.

People bring their kids to school in cars because it's a knock on effect from having to bring their kids to creche in cars as both parents work.
Creche wasn't really a thing 30 years ago as it was rare for both parents to work full time jobs. People were poorer then and only had one car, which the Dad used to go to work, which meant Mam walked with the kids in a buggy.

Everyone seems to think that this problem is easy to fix (Ban Cars, Tax the Hell out of Motorists, Everyone should cycle)
But the reality is that this problem has been festering about 30 years at this point (Start of the 90's Boom)

There is no quick fix!

LeinsterDub · 06-03-2019 11:03am

grahambo wrote: »

There is no quick fix!

There is a quick fix. Removing cars in the fix

Qrt · 06-03-2019 1:12pm

grahambo wrote: »

The City isn't dangerous because of Cars.
The City is dangerous because of all the little scumbags and skobes knocking about.

Sorry but this doesn’t stack up. I live in probably the worst area of Dublin, and I’ve never met anyone who’s more afraid of their kids walking home from school than their kids cycling home.

The Enbalmer · 06-03-2019 1:15pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

There is a quick fix. Removing cars in the fix

That's not going to happen.

You can't MAKE people cycle

You can't MAKE people take the bus

You can't MAKE people carshare

You can't MAKE people walk to work.

The people calling for a ban on cars are usually people who cannot afford a car,it's begrudgery masquerading as social conscience.

LeinsterDub · 06-03-2019 1:21pm

The Enbalmer wrote: »

That's not going to happen.

You can't MAKE people cycle

You can't MAKE people take the bus

You can't MAKE people carshare

You can't MAKE people walk to work.

The people calling for a ban on cars are usually people who cannot afford a car,it's begrudgery masquerading as social conscience.

You can and we already have Grafton Street , Henry Street etc etc.

People will have two options , use alternative means of travel or find new places to drive too. Begrudgery please. what nonsense.

John_Rambo · 06-03-2019 1:24pm

The Enbalmer wrote: »

That's not going to happen..

It's already happening. Getting more and more difficult to drive in to Dublin city centre every year. Removal of car parking, car lanes being turned in to bus and bike lanes or pedestrianised areas.

The Enbalmer wrote: »

You can't MAKE people cycle

You can't MAKE people take the bus

You can't MAKE people carshare

You can't MAKE people walk to work.

No, but they'll do it anyway when it's too much hassle and too expensive to drive in to the city. Thousands have done it already, thousands more will do it too.

The Enbalmer wrote: »

The people calling for a ban on cars are usually people who cannot afford a car,it's begrudgery masquerading as social conscience.

Who told you that??! I have three cars and would be very keen to remove cars from the city centre, increase room for pedestrians, public transport and cyclists. I'd also fully support a congestion charge.

The Enbalmer · 06-03-2019 2:11pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

You can and we already have Grafton Street , Henry Street etc etc.

.

That's the best examples you can think of? Two tiny streets that are pedestrianized?

The Enbalmer · 06-03-2019 2:11pm

John_Rambo wrote: »

Who told you that??! I have three cars and would be very keen to remove cars from the city centre, increase room for pedestrians, public transport and cyclists. I'd also fully support a congestion charge.

Of course you do,Big Shot :rolleyes:

LeChienMefiant · 06-03-2019 2:16pm

The Enbalmer wrote: »

The people calling for a ban on cars are usually people who cannot afford a car,it's begrudgery masquerading as social conscience.

I don't believe that, wealthy families are moving back into the city centre from the suburbs. A lot of them seem to bring the Chelsea tractors with them, but there is no need when everything is so close by. It defeats the purpose of living in the city if you drive everywhere. It will take time to shift behaviour but it will happen.

It's the less well off who cannot afford to live in the city centre that are really dependent on cars.

magicbastarder · 06-03-2019 2:17pm

The Enbalmer wrote: »

That's not going to happen.

You can't MAKE people cycle

You can't MAKE people take the bus

You can't MAKE people carshare

You can't MAKE people walk to work.

no, but you can prioritise the efficient modes of transport - often at the expense of private car drivers - that they soon become the logical choice.

John_Rambo · 06-03-2019 2:18pm

The Enbalmer wrote: »

Of course you do,Big Shot :rolleyes:

I do, not very expensive ones, but good, working cars, a small petrol car, 4x4 for beach sports & Family stuff and something nice for the weekend. why would I lie? PM me of you want further evidence.

Most of my friends that cycle or get public transport have cars at home. The ones that don't live in the city centre and can certainly afford cars, they just don't have them and tend to use Gocar instead.

Your silly, small town minded, outdated 1970's notion that people on bikes, buses and trains are poor and can't afford cars just shows how clueless you are on the subject.

Dublin ranks 3rd in terms of the amount of time spent in cars due to congestion

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