Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Dublin ranks 3rd in terms of the amount of time spent in cars due to congestion

Options
1356717

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 28,941 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    oh my sides.
    they're proposing spending €600m on a single road in galway, for cars. if cyclists got a fraction of that, we'd be delighted.
    cyclists are asking for - well, active transport activists are asking for - 10% of transport budget to be spent on walking and cycling. that's not the lions share, unless you're being creative with language.

    And what are cyclists contributing to get ANY of this money they're demanding? I know you argue the semantics of "road tax" or "motor tax" but whatever it's called,cyclists dont pay ANY of it.
    You could be onto something here - a tax proportional to wear and tear perhaps?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,469 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    How much do motorists contribute to the exchequer and how much is spent on road building and maintenance each year?
    motor tax is something over €1bn per annum.
    according to this, duties of fuel make up another €2bn.
    https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2018-01-16/229/


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    80%? Have you got a source for that?

    Because i spend enough time cycling AND driving to see that a majority of people cycling absolutely do NOT have cars..if they did they wouldnt cycle the way they do.

    I suppose as the mod of the cycling forum you're probably "bone tired" of hearing the "stupid argument" about cyclists running red lights and failing to signal their intentions too? Are you also bone tired of the people who say you should wear high visibility clothing and lights when you're cycling at night?

    "the programme reports that 80 per cent of cyclists also drive"

    https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/tv-radio-web/now-you-see-me-when-cyclists-and-motorists-collide-1.3799047


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,469 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    it's quite difficult to find how much is actually spent on roads - from what i can see, the department of transport has a budget of under a billion for road maintenance but i'm not sure how (or if) that's divvied up to the councils who i thought were responsible for L and R roads, but the information on that is confusing.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭The Enbalmer


    I'm certainly bone tired of the drivers who apparently drive around with blinkers on, given that they don't seem to see the persistent red light jumping by motorists.




    Equally predictably you change the focus to motorists to defelect from the point about cyclists.

    That's why its pointless talking to you people..you will brook no criticism of cyclist behaviour and instead turn it round to people who drive cars.

    As i say,i cycle a fair bit in the city centre and it's cyclists i have the biggest problems with..some of these people think they're riding in a circus.

    Still waiting on the proof of 80% of cyclists also driving cars?


  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,524 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    And what are cyclists contributing to get ANY of this money they're demanding? I know you argue the semantics of "road tax" or "motor tax" but whatever it's called,cyclists dont pay ANY of it.

    You were the one claiming on the last page of this thread that it was your income tax that covered the cost of road infrastructure, correctly acknowledging the fact that your motor tax doesn't even come close.

    So basically your income tax is allowed to count towards road costs, but if you're on a bike it doesn't? In fairness to you, you hardly need a bike to keep fit with all the mental gymnastics that you do.


  • Registered Users Posts: 226 ✭✭Shai


    Still waiting on the proof of 80% of cyclists also driving cars?

    Look 2 posts up.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,941 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    I'm certainly bone tired of the drivers who apparently drive around with blinkers on, given that they don't seem to see the persistent red light jumping by motorists.



    As i say,i cycle a fair bit in the city centre and it's cyclists i have the biggest problems with..some of these people think they're riding in a circus.
    You can choose to have your biggest problems with whoever you like, but you can't choose your own facts. Why did you highlight the old canard of cyclists and red lights when you know well that motorists break red lights all the time?

    It's not cyclists that kill 2 or 3 people each week on the roads and maim many more.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,329 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    And what are cyclists contributing to get ANY of this money they're demanding? I know you argue the semantics of "road tax" or "motor tax" but whatever it's called,cyclists dont pay ANY of it.


    So once cyclists paid a tax, you'd stop disliking cyclists?

    You also could dump your car and avail of this no tax bonanza and start cycling.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    You can choose to have your biggest problems with whoever you like, but you can't choose your own facts. Why did you highlight the old canard of cyclists and red lights when you know well that motorists break red lights all the time?

    It's not cyclists that kill 2 or 3 people each week on the roads and maim many more.

    Weak argument. You cannot acuse drivers of killing people as not are all drivers involved in RTCs are convicted of dangerous/careless driving. The way you are going on is almost as if you are defending incompetent cyclists or those who break the rules of the road.

    I don't think anyone is denying there are a lot of bad drivers out there on the road. Cyclists can be the cause of crashes. Also you don't seem to think that cyclists should be taking precautions to prevent suffer injury or death as a result of incompetent drivers.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 13,875 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Weak argument. You cannot acuse drivers of killing people as not are all drivers involved in RTCs are convicted of dangerous/careless driving. The way you are going on is almost as if you are defending incompetent cyclists or those who break the rules of the road.

    I don't think anyone is denying there are a lot of bad drivers out there on the road. Cyclists can be the cause of crashes. Also you don't seem to think that cyclists should be taking precautions to prevent suffer injury or death as a result of incompetent drivers.

    The law is there to protect the rich.

    The one area where most well off people are likely to find themselves in court is due to driving related charges.

    Ask any guard how difficult it is to get a drink driving conviction against somebody with a good lawyer. Guards are utterly taken apart on the stand over nonsense and the slightest error in procedure means the case is binned.

    Lack of prosecutions have nothing to do with a lot of drivers being anyway blameless and sure in a lot of cases the driver doesn't survive to face prosecution.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,941 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Weak argument. You cannot acuse drivers of killing people as not are all drivers involved in RTCs are convicted of dangerous/careless driving. The way you are going on is almost as if you are defending incompetent cyclists or those who break the rules of the road.

    I don't think anyone is denying there are a lot of bad drivers out there on the road. Cyclists can be the cause of crashes. Also you don't seem to think that cyclists should be taking precautions to prevent suffer injury or death as a result of incompetent drivers.
    It doesn't really matter whether they're convicted or not Stephen. Most road deaths are motorists killing themselves, other motorists or passengers. If you want to reduce road deaths, focus on getting motorists to stop killing people.


  • Registered Users Posts: 620 ✭✭✭LeChienMefiant


    41% Income tax for the last 26 years says otherwise.
    The people who are walking, cycling or using public transport to commute also pay income tax. People using public transport at peak times are working or studying.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭monkeybutter


    Ban cars from 1k around the city center (permits for the few who need them)

    How much time do buses sit around waiting and how much time is wasted for the Luas waiting on traffic

    That's what needs to be done

    More bus lanes also and monitored by cameras

    Anyone driving down the North Quays in the morning (even 24hrs) has a screw loose at this stage

    For the buses, it's been brilliant west bound with dedicated bus lanes the whole way out

    Stop all routes going through the city center also with dedicated feeder buses doing the city center route, the quays etc

    No bus should cross the city center

    I think some of that is in the most likely doomed bus upgrade plans


  • Registered Users Posts: 620 ✭✭✭LeChienMefiant


    Congestion charge would be great. The people who feel they are paying for the right to bring their private cars into the city, let them do just that. The funds raised should be made available for better facilities for those walking, cycling and using public transport.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 689 ✭✭✭Ray Bloody Purchase


    Equally predictably you change the focus to motorists to defelect from the point about cyclists.

    That's why its pointless talking to you people..you will brook no criticism of cyclist behaviour and instead turn it round to people who drive cars.

    As i say,i cycle a fair bit in the city centre and it's cyclists i have the biggest problems with..some of these people think they're riding in a circus.

    Still waiting on the proof of 80% of cyclists also driving cars?

    Relax amigo. If you didn't spend so much time stewing over all these things in the car that you are so entitled to drive, you might not be as wound up. ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,440 ✭✭✭cdaly_



    Stop all routes going through the city center also with dedicated feeder buses doing the city center route, the quays etc

    No bus should cross the city center

    Bus routes used to stop in the city centre and this gave rise to large swathes of city streets being used for bus parking with associated oil spills and pollution. Cross-city routes mean that idle buses are parked out in the suburbs where there's room.

    I don't think feeder buses would be a solution here as you'd want them pretty close to the centre and so interchange space would be difficult and you'd still have idle buses concentrated in small areas.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,635 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    How much do motorists contribute to the exchequer and how much is spent on road building and maintenance each year?

    If you take into account:
    1) The Tax on new cars (125,557 sold in 2018), light commercials (25,561 sold in 2018) and Heavy Commercials (446 sold in 2018).
    2) The VRT on secondhand vehicles imported into Ireland (127,000 in 2018)
    3) The Duty paid on Fuel
    4) The amount of tax paid by people working in the Motor Industry in Ireland
    5) Motor Tax
    6) Tax on Insurance products

    I think you'll find "The Motorist" pays a great deal of Tax in Ireland for the Privilege of driving a vehicle.
    sharper wrote: »
    https://humantransit.org/2012/09/the-photo-that-explains-almost-everything.html

    6a00d83454714d69e2017d3c37d8ac970c-800wi

    The next time you're sitting in traffic think about what it would be like if even if 50 people in front of you got on a bus instead. When you're waiting behind a bus or see a bus passing by in the bus lane imagine what it would be like for traffic if those 100 people each got into their own car instead.

    You absolutely can drive your own car but it's the least efficient form of transport and should always be lower priority when space is limited.

    I get the point you are trying to make, but unfortunately the Bus service is at capacity, and is still less favorable by a great number of people in Dublin than sitting in their Car for a few hours (cause the service isn't great....

    Also Cyclists NEVER line up like that. :D

    Motorcycles are the way forward.


  • Registered Users Posts: 620 ✭✭✭LeChienMefiant


    grahambo wrote: »
    If you take into account:
    1) The Tax on new cars (125,557 sold in 2018), light commercials (25,561 sold in 2018) and Heavy Commercials (446 sold in 2018).
    Which of those classifications includes the buses that are the most efficient means of moving people around? It's only private cars that are an issue and inefficient.

    The bus service would be a lot better and have much more capacity if there were less private car traffic.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,280 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    The congestion wouldnt be so bad if shane ross and his cycling fetish and dublin city council werent so mad for a road diet, its deliberately slowing traffic to force people to use public transport, which would work, if the public transport system was any use.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 620 ✭✭✭LeChienMefiant


    The congestion wouldnt be so bad if shane ross and his cycling fetish and dublin city council werent so mad for a road diet, its deliberately slowing traffic to force people to use public transport, which would work, if the public transport system was any use.
    Shane Ross has a cycling fetish? He's been very good at keeping it secret.:D


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,635 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    Which of those classifications includes the buses that are the most efficient means of moving people around? It's only private cars that are an issue and inefficient.

    The bus service would be a lot better and have much more capacity if there were less private car traffic.

    Agree with you in that they are very inefficient

    Have you thought what would happen though if even 20% of people cycled/got public transport to work and didn't own a car anymore...

    Just look at the Fuel....
    Fuel alone accounts for around €3 Billion in Tax Revenue (For just Private Cars):

    Average motorist driving a petrol-powered vehicle will spend €211.50 a month of which €130.71 is tax. (€1,568.52 per annum)
    Average motorist driving a diesel-powered vehicle will spend €196.50 a month of which €111.61 is tax. (€1,339.32 per annum)

    2.1 million cars on the road (lets split 50:50)

    1.05 Million Petrol * €1,568.52 = €1,646,400,000
    1.05 Million Diesel * €1,339.32 = €1,406,286,000

    This assumes the Average motorist is doing 12,000 miles a year!

    It's Massive Money!


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,568 ✭✭✭dubrov


    grahambo wrote:
    It's Massive Money!

    Not worth it for the pollution and damage they cause along with the road space they take up.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,941 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    The congestion wouldnt be so bad if shane ross and his cycling fetish and dublin city council werent so mad for a road diet, its deliberately slowing traffic to force people to use public transport, which would work, if the public transport system was any use.

    Where have DCC done the road diet thing?


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,280 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    Where have DCC done the road diet thing?

    Ehh the north quays , the restrictions on college green, the 30km/h speed limit, the road narrowing around clontarf and the north strand, restrictions / one way roads preventing diversion from altered roads all over the city.

    This has been the plan for the last decade.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,469 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    shane ross and his cycling fetish
    now i need to clean my screen again.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,469 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    grahambo wrote: »
    It's Massive Money!
    couple of things here; first is the calculation about the amount of money foregone. you estimated 20% of €3bn, so say €600m. now take into account the benefit to public health - direct from people being more active and fitter, indirect from people breathing cleaner air (and remember that the HSE has a budget of something like €18bn, a not insignificant figure)
    also, take into account the benefits to those who are still sitting in traffic of removing one in every five cars from the road. granted, you'll see a further reduction in fuel receipts as the roads will be less congested so cars will run more efficiently, but there would be a decent albeit unmeasurable boost in reduction in wasted time. it *has* to be good for the mental and physical health of those who do remain stuck in their cars, to spend less time stuck.

    secondly, the money people wouldn't be spending on fuel doesn't simply just evaporate. monies not spent on fuel would be spent elsewhere, and possibly with a greater multiplier impact on the economy than it does on a commodity which is produced elsewhere, shipped into the country and sold without much 'value added' benefit to the economy in terms of stimulating *other* economic growth.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    The congestion wouldnt be so bad if shane ross and his cycling fetish and dublin city council werent so mad for a road diet, its deliberately slowing traffic to force people to use public transport, which would work, if the public transport system was any use.

    I've seen some absolute nonsense posted on my time here. But this takes the biscuit.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,941 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Ehh the north quays , the restrictions on college green, the 30km/h speed limit, the road narrowing around clontarf and the north strand, restrictions / one way roads preventing diversion from altered roads all over the city.

    This has been the plan for the last decade.




    The only one of those that has dedicated spaces for cycling is Clontarf. Are you sure that you know what a fetish is?


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 3,635 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    couple of things here; first is the calculation about the amount of money foregone. you estimated 20% of €3bn, so say €600m. now take into account the benefit to public health - direct from people being more active and fitter, indirect from people breathing cleaner air (and remember that the HSE has a budget of something like €18bn, a not insignificant figure)
    also, take into account the benefits to those who are still sitting in traffic of removing one in every five cars from the road. granted, you'll see a further reduction in fuel receipts as the roads will be less congested so cars will run more efficiently, but there would be a decent albeit unmeasurable boost in reduction in wasted time. it *has* to be good for the mental and physical health of those who do remain stuck in their cars, to spend less time stuck.

    I take your point that long term lower pollution levels and people exercising a bit more will bring about better health, whether that's to the tune of €600M is another thing.
    Air quality levels in Dublin are actually quite good, usually around a 30 AQI.

    One thing I'll add to the health thing:
    I used to use a motorcycle to get to work, but stopped using it in the last year and now get the DART.
    I find myself being sick a lot more since I've started using public transport. Sometimes the DART is like petri dish. I'm borderline thinking on wearing a face mask like they do in parts of Asia.
    Last year I had 6 sick days. In the years previous to that I'd have had 2 at most.
    secondly, the money people wouldn't be spending on fuel doesn't simply just evaporate. monies not spent on fuel would be spent elsewhere, and possibly with a greater multiplier impact on the economy than it does on a commodity which is produced elsewhere, shipped into the country and sold without much 'value added' benefit to the economy in terms of stimulating *other* economic growth.

    They'd have to introduce more tax to make up the deficit, bare in mid the Duty on Fuel is exceptionally high, around 100%.
    Mind you, this is coming anyway with the introduction of electric cars and what not.


Advertisement