BIK on EVs.

DM1983 · 17-12-2017 10:55pm

But the definition in the finance act states "a vehicle that derives its motive power exclusively from an electric motor"? For me, that would include i3 Rex?

Water John · 17-12-2017 11:07pm

Think this was discussed earlier. Ask Revenue, and they will say, no. The purpose is to, move transport away from fossil fuels. The second part of that is, for electricity generation to be renewable.

DM1983 · 17-12-2017 11:16pm

Thanks for the reply. Very good to know if this is in fact the case. Perhaps if someone on here has already received a response from revenue confirming that i3 Rex would fall outside their definition, they could let me know.

Any comments on the other 2 queries in my original post?

KCross · 17-12-2017 11:35pm

Dmangan wrote: »

Hi guys, 3 things I would like confirmed if possible.

1) Definition for evs for the 0% bik is based on motive power so i3 Rex should be fine I think?

2) Buying a second hand car should be fine too I think?

3) The car can be bought now but not made available for use until January 2018?

1) I thought i3 Rex was applicable because the motive power comes exclusively from the battery as opposed to a hybrid where the ICE can drive the wheels too. I haven't seen an official response from revenue though.

I don't know on the other questions. Maybe fire off an email to revenue and share the answer with the rest of us.

18-12-2017 12:47am

It would be ridiculous because the intent is to move people away from Petrol and Diesel as their main source of power and electrics with 20 + Kwh have the potential to greatly reduce our reliance on these fuels and the likes of the i3 Rex will greatly reduce the need to use petrol or diesel and give people peace of mind of having a backup until the charging network improves and charge times reduce.

loopymum · 18-12-2017 1:18am

BIK and self-employed?
My OH is self employed and at present doesn't have a commercial vehicle so does anyone know can he buy himself an EV in January?

air · 18-12-2017 9:39am

loopymum wrote: »

BIK and self-employed?
My OH is self employed and at present doesn't have a commercial vehicle so does anyone know can he buy himself an EV in January?

Not if he is a sole trader, BIK only applies to employees so he would need to be a self employed company director to qualify.
He can however claim the business percentage of his motoring expenses as a sole trader.

goz83 · 18-12-2017 9:53am

Deleted User wrote: »

It would be ridiculous because the intent is to move people away from Petrol and Diesel as their main source of power and electrics with 20 + Kwh have the potential to greatly reduce our reliance on these fuels and the likes of the i3 Rex will greatly reduce the need to use petrol or diesel and give people peace of mind of having a backup until the charging network improves and charge times reduce.

They're not interested in our peace of mind. And while the i3 Rex does derive it's power from the motor, it will use fossil fuel from time to time. Why set the battery threshold at 20kWh? Why not 30, or 40, or 5? A 20+kWh might be your definition of a meaningful battery size for range (and by the way, I would agree with you here), but to others, it could be a lot less, or a lot more, depending on their driving needs and perceptions.

It needs to be clear cut. If the car holds old dinosaurs in it (not referring to you Mad_Lad

) then it shouldn't be included for the special rate BIK.

ELM327 · 18-12-2017 10:15am

goz83 wrote: »

They're not interested in our peace of mind. And while the i3 Rex does derive it's power from the motor, it will use fossil fuel from time to time. Why set the battery threshold at 20kWh? Why not 30, or 40, or 5? A 20+kWh might be your definition of a meaningful battery size for range (and by the way, I would agree with you here), but to others, it could be a lot less, or a lot more, depending on their driving needs and perceptions.

It needs to be clear cut. If the car holds old dinosaurs in it (not referring to you Mad_Lad ) then it shouldn't be included for the special rate BIK.

There were murmorings that the nissan e-power note would qualify despite not having a plug, as it derives its power totally from an electric motor.

I don't think your interpretation of the rule lines up with the literal meaning (while it may be the spirit of the rule it is not the written form)

goz83 · 18-12-2017 10:44am

ELM327 wrote: »

There were murmorings that the nissan e-power note would qualify despite not having a plug, as it derives its power totally from an electric motor.

I don't think your interpretation of the rule lines up with the literal meaning (while it may be the spirit of the rule it is not the written form)

I was only saying what the rules should be, not what the written form is.

grogi · 18-12-2017 11:02am

ELM327 wrote: »

There were murmorings that the nissan e-power note would qualify despite not having a plug, as it derives its power totally from an electric motor.

I don't think your interpretation of the rule lines up with the literal meaning (while it may be the spirit of the rule it is not the written form)

So the wording of the rule should be changed - to "any car that does not draw energy from any fossil fuel". Simple.

ELM327 · 18-12-2017 11:04am

grogi wrote: »

So the wording of the rule should be changed - to "any car that does not draw energy from any fossil fuel". Simple.

Should be?
It's only released already, you'd think they would have changed it before release if that was their intention.

DM1983 · 18-12-2017 11:14am

Submitted my query this morning so will feed back the response when I have it. FWIW I agree that it "should" be for pure bevs only but I would be very interested in the Rex if possible!

ELM327 · 18-12-2017 11:18am

Dmangan wrote: »

Submitted my query this morning so will feed back the response when I have it. FWIW I agree that it "should" be for pure bevs only but I would be very interested in the Rex if possible!

Response from whom, revenue?
They give different responses based on the day of the week/who you speak to, on anything thats not clear cut.
EG the BIK on work charging, two companies had two completely contradictory responses from revenue regarding BIK - one was taht it was due and one that it wasnt, there was a thread on it here.

18-12-2017 12:03pm

The problem that if it's for pure BEV's only then the uptake will be slower if not a lot slower, the more people become aware of the state of the network and the EV range and the time to charge, then the possibility of having to wait 30 mins or more to even begin to charge will turn off a lot of people, a Rex like system overcomes this while still allowing significant EV driving.

Plug ins with 20 (30 ?)+ Kwh with ICE's that do not drive the wheels should only qualify.

It's increasingly likely that manufacturers are going to offer a lot more plug ins , hopefully with larger than the normal 7-10 Kwh battery and these will be subject to higher VRT in Ireland making them automatically far less attractive and making Diesel yet again the preferred option. The Government need to reconsider and eliminate VRT and BIK on electrics with larger batteries and again, with ICEs that do not drive the wheels.

ELM327 · 18-12-2017 12:39pm

Deleted User wrote: »

The problem that if it's for pure BEV's only then the uptake will be slower if not a lot slower, the more people become aware of the state of the network and the EV range and the time to charge, then the possibility of having to wait 30 mins or more to even begin to charge will turn off a lot of people, a Rex like system overcomes this while still allowing significant EV driving.

Plug ins with 20 (30 ?)+ Kwh with ICE's that do not drive the wheels should only qualify.

It's increasingly likely that manufacturers are going to offer a lot more plug ins , hopefully with larger than the normal 7-10 Kwh battery and these will be subject to higher VRT in Ireland making them automatically far less attractive and making Diesel yet again the preferred option. The Government need to reconsider and eliminate VRT and BIK on electrics with larger batteries and again, with ICEs that do not drive the wheels.

Agreed. We need to differentiate between BEVx (like your i3) and compliance car PHEV. BEVx should be encouraged as it's really a BEV with a little generator to charge the battery on the odd occasion.

In CA, they use the BEVx classification as different from PHEV. BEVx are entitled to use the HOV lane whereas the compliance car PHEV are not.

IMO: VRT relief for full BEV only, 90% of the rebate for BEVx, 25% for PHEV, and charge a penalty on diesels of 25%.

People need to realise that diesel has had its day for domestic transport and we need to move away from it. PHEV is a stepping stone to full BEV and should also be encouraged, just less so than BEV/x as they are still running on fossil fuel.

18-12-2017 1:18pm

A 25% increase on diesels is wishful thinking. + there are not many decent plug ins and still very few electric models to tempt people away from Diesel. We need much more electric models to choose from.

ELM327 · 18-12-2017 1:28pm

Deleted User wrote: »

A 25% increase on diesels is wishful thinking. + there are not many decent plug ins and still very few electric models to tempt people away from Diesel. We need much more electric models to choose from.

We need carrot and stick.
There's been plenty of carrot (VRT rebates, free fuel for 6 years+,etc) and still no takeup.

Therefore we need the stick approach. Hit people where it hurts, and enforce change, much like was done in 2008.

18-12-2017 2:29pm

The issue though has always been the lack of choice, range and the Public charging network.

Free public charging will really only matter for those who depend heavily on the network which no doubt will deter these people from going electric.

So for now I really believe PHEV is the way to go , proper PHEV like the i3 and it's the only one that exists currently.

Manufacturers can produce these cars without the usual BS that no one wants to buy them, the range is too low etc because they'll have a backup.

It's a real shame Nissan did not offer a similar setup for the Leaf, BEV with the generator being optional, guarantee the generator option would have been the most popular option.

Most people will charge up as it's a lot cheaper to run on electricity and run the generator only when needed. Greatly minimising the use of petrol and being as convenient as possible for the driver.

Then some day we will have a proper network, banks of 8 or more chargers on site, 300+ Kw and 60+ Kwh batteries, until then, PHEV is a way forward ( for those that want this option ) generators could and should be optional letting the buyer choose what suits them best, but for now in Ireland PHEV will always be less attractive due to the extra VRT.

I'm not so sure I agree that the diesel should be more expensive just to match the cost of the PHEV, the PHEV should be as cheap as possible making it as attractive or better option to choose over diesel, I do agree that diesels should carry a higher premium but that's not going to happen in Ireland, my guess is that it's only when manufacturers start to ramp down Diesel sales within the next decade that people here will change and not before then.

ELM327 · 18-12-2017 2:32pm

Deleted User wrote: »

The issue though has always been the lack of choice, range and the Public charging network.

Free public charging will really only matter for those who depend heavily on the network which no doubt will deter these people from going electric.

So for now I really believe PHEV is the way to go , proper PHEV like the i3 and it's the only one that exists currently.

Manufacturers can produce these cars without the usual BS that no one wants to buy them, the range is too low etc because they'll have a backup.

It's a real shame Nissan did not offer a similar setup for the Leaf, BEV with the generator being optional, guarantee the generator option would have been the most popular option.

Most people will charge up as it's a lot cheaper to run on electricity and run the generator only when needed. Greatly minimising the use of petrol and being as convenient as possible for the driver.

Then some day we will have a proper network, banks of 8 or more chargers on site, 300+ Kw and 60+ Kwh batteries, until then, PHEV is a way forward ( for those that want this option ) generators could and should be optional letting the buyer choose what suits them best, but for now in Ireland PHEV will always be less attractive due to the extra VRT.

I'm not so sure I agree that the diesel should be more expensive just to match the cost of the PHEV, the PHEV should be as cheap as possible making it as attractive or better option to choose over diesel, I do agree that diesels should carry a higher premium but that's not going to happen in Ireland, my guess is that it's only when manufacturers start to ramp down Diesel sales within the next decade that people here will change and not before then.

The i3 rex is not a PHEV, it is a BEVx.
Agreed that BEVx is the way forward as an interim measure but they are like training wheels for a childs bicycle - they serve their purpose until no longer needed.
Once we have cars with 60kWh batteries and a fit for purpose fast charge network (ubiquitous as petrol stations) then we should not need BEVx

PHEV are a tax dodge, they have their uses but their idea use case (town user with <10km commute) could and would be better served with a BEV.

18-12-2017 5:33pm

Unfortunately BEVx is the only real way forward for now as far as I can see. But it's looking like it will be well after 2020 at this rate before we even have a proper flow and choice of BEVx vehicles.

Water John · 18-12-2017 6:51pm

Well the Leaf with a real world 300 miles is supposed to be available in 2019.
Unless your a Rep or away from home for a few days, all your charging will be at home and no need for the little engine on board.

Johnboy1951 · 18-12-2017 8:34pm

Water John wrote: »

Well the Leaf with a real world 300 miles is supposed to be available in 2019.
Unless your a Rep or away from home for a few days, all your charging will be at home and no need for the little engine on board.

If that means 300 miles in Winter at motorway speeds, then yes it would be sufficient for most car drivers, IMO.
Hopefully that will be the case .....

18-12-2017 10:14pm

That's all grand until people want to charge, you'll still need to charge on longer motorway trips, and indeed, it will be a long time before any EV can do 300 (miles) on a charge in winter with lots of motorway stints at 120-130 Kph then preheating etc.

Fast charging would want to be 300 Kw at that rate to satisfy the majority of ICE drivers.

At least my little engine allows me to continue with no charging if I so choose and I don't have to carry a huge battery either if I won't often use it.

Water John · 18-12-2017 10:29pm

Whatever you choose Mad Lad, your right always.

liamog · 18-12-2017 11:12pm

Have to agree with Water John. The 2019 crop of 300km full range cars are more than enough for the majority of motorists.

I'm glad we didn't make the mistake of incentivising PHEV's. 5 years ago they were a great piece of technology to bridge the high battery cost.
Now they are just a tax dodge.

Large battery cars are closer than many think. Prices have been dropping by around 20% per year.
Nissan were paying $800/kWh in 2011 for a 24kWh battery.
Chevy are supposedly paying $190/kWh in 2017

If you plot the battery drop using 80% of the previous year for a $8000 dollar battery, you begin to notice that the Leaf 30kWh, Ioniq 28kWh, Zoe 40kWh, Leaf II 40kWh, Leaf 60kWh rumored are hitting about the right time to maintain there price.
Extrapolating that out brings us 48kWh cars in 2018 (Kona/Stonic), 60kWh in 2019 (Leaf II 60kWh), and 75kWh cars due in 2020. All for the same $8000 battery.

So by 2020 new cars would have a range of 420km using a pessimistic 18kWh/100km efficiency.

Obviously this opens up the lower cost cars to being electrified using shorter ranges too.

loopymum · 18-12-2017 11:20pm

loopymum wrote: »

BIK and self-employed?
My OH is self employed and at present doesn't have a commercial vehicle so does anyone know can he buy himself an EV in January?

Sorry if I am drip feeding, just sussing it out. My OH is speaking to accountant soon as there is talk of converting to a company but not likely to happen for a few years as there are still loans being repaid.
The accountant has advised him to set up a company anyway in readiness and just file a 0 returns if he doesn't use it which is the likeliest scenario at the moment.

Thanks, my next question is a bit of lead on in that I am employed by my OH, could he buy me a BEV through his business?

I had reason to speak to my insurance company today and I was asking what the story was regarding insurance if my employer bought me a car like a bev bik-free and she said if the car was not registered in mine or OH name I couldn't insure it as I would not have an insurable interest. Does a car bought for me which would be a bik free bev be in my name or is that a big no no?

Water John · 18-12-2017 11:28pm

Once the Co operates the business and both you and OH take your earnings from that as employees then the co can buy the EV car, but the co owns it ans thus insures it, is my understanding.
That is where people seem to have difficulty in getting insurance quotes.
Very interested myself as just started running business through a co. We have a 30Kw Leaf personally which my OH drives ATM. Sadly, I'm still on diesel.

loopymum · 18-12-2017 11:49pm

Thanks Water John, if my oh doesn't form the company can he still purchase a bev bik free for an employee, eg, me?

grogi · 18-12-2017 11:54pm

loopymum wrote: »

I couldn't insure it as I would not have an insurable interest.

You don't insure a car. You insure yourself to drive that car - a fundamental difference. And you would have insurable interest in insuring yourself.

BIK on EVs.

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