BIK on EVs.

JohnJohnBT

Zenith74 wrote: »

You missed the last few posts on this thread I think :-). In summary, where in the tax code that I could find mentions this ‘end of 2020’ date. All Revenue articles/papers, except one, make no mention of it and it is not in the Budget 2020 documents or Finance Bill 2019 that enacted the extension. The tax code suggests you can get an EV any time until the end of 2022 and pay 0% BIK, after 2022 a new BIK regime is detailed.

Obviously I could be wrong, I’m only looking out of curiosity as I‘m already availing if the exemption, but personally I think there’s an error on the Revenue website and I’ve emailed them about it.

Would love to hear if you got clarification on this from Revenue. Might have to rush into buying before the close of the year if the BIK exemption ends then for purchase, which is not ideal...

REFLINE1

Its a shame there isn't a little more certainty around the BIK topic for EV's. I have the option of an EV on my company car list but am a little hesitant to go for it if i will end up with a big BIK bill in a few years. i do less than 20k business kms a year so even with the sliding scale based on emissions from 2023 i will end up with a significant BIK cost as i understand it, possibly 22% OMV?

If i was to opt for a cheaper diesel vehicle, like i have at present, I at least have a generous mileage allowance, which somewhat offsets the cost of the BIK at present. my company car scheme has a 4 yr lease period.

REFLINE1

REFLINE1 wrote: »

Its a shame there isn't a little more certainty around the BIK topic for EV's. I have the option of an EV on my company car list but am a little hesitant to go for it if i will end up with a big BIK bill in a few years. i do less than 20k business kms a year so even with the sliding scale based on emissions from 2023 i will end up with a significant BIK cost as i understand it, possibly 22% OMV?

If i was to opt for a cheaper diesel vehicle, like i have at present, I at least have a generous mileage allowance, which somewhat offsets the cost of the BIK at present. my company car scheme has a 4 yr lease period.

Why don't you just get a van ? you'll have no BIK, sure it's a van but who cares ? you won't have to spend countless hours at chargers either.

REFLINE1

Deleted User wrote: »

Why don't you just get a van ? you'll have no BIK, sure it's a van but who cares ? you won't have to spend countless hours at chargers either.

Be handy for the the golf clubs and tools but not so much for the kids

REFLINE1

Also i work mostly from home with client trips once or twice a week, mostly within an hour from the house so charging would not be a big issue.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Why don't you just get a van ? you'll have no BIK, ........................

It's 5% BIK currently and that shall rise to 8% so it's not insignificant tbh....

.https://www.charteredaccountants.ie/taxsource/1997/en/act/pub/0039/sec0121A.html........The cash equivalent of the benefit of a van—

(a)for a year of assessment, other than a year of assessment referred to in paragraph (b), shall be 5 per cent of the original market value of the van, and

(b)for the year of assessment 2023 and subsequent years of assessment, shall be 8 per cent of the original market value of the van.

Zenith74

REFLINE1 wrote: »

Its a shame there isn't a little more certainty around the BIK topic for EV's. I have the option of an EV on my company car list but am a little hesitant to go for it if i will end up with a big BIK bill in a few years. i do less than 20k business kms a year so even with the sliding scale based on emissions from 2023 i will end up with a significant BIK cost as i understand it, possibly 22% OMV?

FWIW we got an email from Revenue last week to say that an employee given an electric car now will benefit from the 0% BIK rate. We have asked for further clarification as this aligns with the tax code but contradicts the Revenue FAQ on the topic.

So in your case it looks like you'd benefit from 0% BIK for two years then 22.5% for the next two years. That's still a pretty good deal, especially if you believe the 0% rate will be extended again before 2023, which personally I think it will.

22% on EVs will make them not overly appealable to company car folk who aren't directors of their own gig.

Augeo

Augeo wrote: »

It's 5% BIK currently and that shall rise to 8% so it's not insignificant tbh....

.https://www.charteredaccountants.ie/taxsource/1997/en/act/pub/0039/sec0121A.html........The cash equivalent of the benefit of a van—

(a)for a year of assessment, other than a year of assessment referred to in paragraph (b), shall be 5 per cent of the original market value of the van, and

(b)for the year of assessment 2023 and subsequent years of assessment, shall be 8 per cent of the original market value of the van.

Huh ? I don't know anyone who pays BIK on a van ?

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Huh ? I don't know anyone who pays BIK on a van ?

If you bring it home it's not a pool yoke and it's being used personally so therefore BIK is applicable. Lots of folk likely paying 5% on €20k yokes and they don't realise it.

I know plenty paying no BIK on passenger SUVs etc so no doubt loads in vans do the same. Easy one for revenue to ream them on someday though.

Augeo

Augeo wrote: »

If you bring it home it's not a pool yoke and it's being used personally so therefore BIK is applicable. Lots of folk likely paying 5% on €20k yokes and they don't realise it.

I know plenty paying no BIK on passenger SUVs etc so no doubt loads in vans do the same. Easy one for revenue to ream them on someday though.

No, I have never known any van driver to pay BIK and yes they would realise this in their payslips.

If you bring the van home you're bringing it home because most of the time it's impractical to drive it back to depot and have to collect it the next morning and a lot of van drivers are all stocked up and ready to go from their homes the next morning.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

No, I have never known any van driver to pay BIK and yes they would realise this in their payslips.

If you bring the van home you're bringing it home because most of the time it's impractical to drive it back to depot and have to collect it the next morning and a lot of van drivers are all stocked up and ready to go from their homes the next morning.

How many van drivers do you know? They all discuss their remuneration and BIK liabilities with you ? Every van driver you know has to bring the van home and uses it for no private use?

https://www.revenue.ie/en/employing-people/benefit-in-kind-for-employers/private-use-of-company-vans/exemptions-from-bik.aspx

Exemptions from BIK
General exemption
Your employee will not pay tax on the benefit of a company van where:

you provide your employee with the van for work purposes and they have to bring it home afterwards
your employee is not allowed to use the van except travelling to and from work
your employee spends at least 80% of their working day away from your work premises.


Anyway, you are drifting wildly from your initail point

Deleted User wrote: »

Why don't you just get a van ? you'll have no BIK, sure it's a van but who cares ? you won't have to spend countless hours at chargers either.

BIK will be due for the chap you made that suggestion to, he's not a van driver and doesn't need a van for work. If he gets a company van instead of an company EV then 5% BIK applies regardless of what van drivers you know do or don't pay.

grogi

Deleted User wrote: »

No, I have never known any van driver to pay BIK and yes they would realise this in their payslips.

Fact that nobody does it doesn't mean it is legal.

If you bring the van home you're bringing it home because most of the time it's impractical to drive it back to depot and have to collect it the next morning and a lot of van drivers are all stocked up and ready to go from their homes the next morning.

That's exactly the point. It is more practical for the driver to use the van to get to/from home. Hence they are using the vehicle for private use. There are some exemption available, but generally BIK is due.

the_amazing_raisin

Zenith74 wrote: »

FWIW we got an email from Revenue last week to say that an employee given an electric car now will benefit from the 0% BIK rate. We have asked for further clarification as this aligns with the tax code but contradicts the Revenue FAQ on the topic.

So in your case it looks like you'd benefit from 0% BIK for two years then 22.5% for the next two years. That's still a pretty good deal, especially if you believe the 0% rate will be extended again before 2023, which personally I think it will.

Even if it isn't 0% I could see them giving a discounted rate for EVs, I doubt we'll be at the necessary levels of EVs in company vehicles by then that they can pull back all the supports

Zenith74

They can bring the van home and use it to get to/from work and not pay BIK. But if they use the van for any personal use then BIK is due.

If it can be classified as a pool van they can use it for a minimal amount of personal use, however pool vans cannot be just for a single driver and cannot be brought home regularly.

Having said that this has been broadly ignored anywhere I've ever worked. Does not make it right or legit though and I'd assume larger companies who do not want to get on the wrong side of Revenue are more likely to enforce it.

Augeo

Augeo wrote: »

How many van drivers do you know? They all discuss their remuneration and BIK liabilities with you ? Every van driver you know has to bring the van home and uses it for no private use?

https://www.revenue.ie/en/employing-people/benefit-in-kind-for-employers/private-use-of-company-vans/exemptions-from-bik.aspx

Exemptions from BIK
General exemption
Your employee will not pay tax on the benefit of a company van where:

you provide your employee with the van for work purposes and they have to bring it home afterwards
your employee is not allowed to use the van except travelling to and from work
your employee spends at least 80% of their working day away from your work premises.


Anyway, you are drifting wildly from your initail point

I've known a lot of van drivers through the years and was one for some time myself, none of us ever paid BIK and neither does a friend of mine who drives a car van which is basically to the office and driving around supervising.

I also drove company vans for private use who cares ? nobody cared. I didn't abuse it.

Augeo wrote: »

BIK will be due for the chap you made that suggestion to, he's not a van driver and doesn't need a van for work. If he gets a company van instead of an company EV then 5% BIK applies regardless of what van drivers you know do or don't pay.

But he does need it for visiting clients that's work.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

.......


But he does need it for visiting clients that's work.

And he will be using it privately, so hello BIK.

Deleted User wrote: »

........

I also drove company vans for private use who cares ? nobody cared. I didn't abuse it. .........

That's laughable, you were liable for BIK, fair enough you didn't pay it, that doesn't mean there was no liability.

Zenith74

Deleted User wrote: »

But he does need it for visiting clients that's work.

As it would not be a pool van, if he/she has any personal usage they would be liable to BIK regardless of visiting clients or anything else.

Whether they choose to pay it is a different matter, and as you say many don't, but this probably isn't the place to debate which forms of tax evasion are approved by the boards.ie EV community. :eek:

Augeo

Augeo wrote: »

And he will be using it privately, so hello BIK.

That's laughable, you were liable for BIK, fair enough you didn't pay it, that doesn't mean there was no liability.

I'm saying no one cares if a work van is used privately, some businesses may or may not care but how's revenue going to know that someone is driving the work van to do the weekly shopping ?

No one would drive vans if they had to pay BIK because, imagine having to pay rent for your work office ? you send private emails, watch Netflix and youtube and come on boards to talk some shyte, that's all private use of the work office. Don't tell me no one does it ? yes they do but guess what ? no one cares.

I can guarantee you my mate doesn't pay BIK on his car van.

You obviously have never driven a work van.

Zenith74

Zenith74 wrote: »

As it would not be a pool van, if he/she has any personal usage they would be liable to BIK regardless of visiting clients or anything else.

Whether they choose to pay it is a different matter, and as you say many don't, but this probably isn't the place to debate which forms of tax evasion are approved by the boards.ie EV community. :eek:

Jesus, I'm not talking about Tax evasion before the Boards police get me ffs.

All I'm saying is that I nor anyone I have ever known or know has ever paid BIK on a work van and having to bring the van back to the depo and collect it in the morning is unpractical for most van drivers.

air

I've been paying BIK on a van for years, it's taxed privately as well to cover personal usage.

air

air wrote: »

I've been paying BIK on a van for years, it's taxed privately as well to cover personal usage.

That's too bad, seriously, you're letting yourself get screwed, Id hand the keys back and tell them to find someone else but that's just me.

Actually I forgot another mate who drives a work van and doesn't pay BIK. So that's Two I know personally. But they also know plenty of Van drivers who don't pay BIK.

IAMAMORON

No BIK on commercial vehicles.

grogi

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That's too bad, seriously, you're letting yourself get screwed, Id hand the keys back and tell them to find someone else but that's just me.

Actually I forgot another mate who drives a work van and doesn't pay BIK. So that's Two I know personally. But they also know plenty of Van drivers who don't pay BIK.

If you're so sure it is legal, report him to revenue... If that's ok, there will be nothing out of it.

eddhorse

A lot of misinformation here, don't be spouting nonsense on BIK if you know nothing about it.

RTFM
https://www.revenue.ie/en/employing-people/benefit-in-kind-for-employers/private-use-of-company-vans/exemptions-from-bik.aspx

grogi

grogi wrote: »

If you're so sure it is legal, report him to revenue... If that's ok, there will be nothing out of it.

Now why would I give a sh1t that someone isn't getting raped more by the government more than they are ? fair play to them.

As I've said, I've never heard of van drivers getting charged BIK or there'd be a lot less van drivers.

eddhorse

eddhorse wrote: »

A lot of misinformation here, don't be spouting nonsense on BIK if you know nothing about it.

RTFM
https://www.revenue.ie/en/employing-people/benefit-in-kind-for-employers/private-use-of-company-vans/exemptions-from-bik.aspx

I take it that that was meant for me ?

So how are you going to determine A van driver isn't driving to the shop or picking a kid up from school ?

Who gives a sh1t ? no one not even the Government.

"oh I need to go to the shop and it's 10 miles away" I better walk because the Government tells me it's the Law that I walk,

Get real!

eddhorse

Deleted User wrote: »

I take it that that was meant for me ?

So how are you going to determine A van driver isn't driving to the shop or picking a kid up from school ?

Who gives a sh1t ? no one not even the Government.

"oh I need to go to the shop and it's 10 miles away" I better walk because the Government tells me it's the Law that I walk,

Get real!

No it wasn't directed at you, someone else also said "no BIK on commercial vehicles".

A recent development is that Revenue are auditing companies which provide company vehicles and are assessing the companies to back-tax plus interest and penalties.

Your argument that "no ones gives a sh1t" may be true but unfortunately we have laws in this country.

If you get away with it great but there is liability there and its not advised to give other people on this thread misinformation regarding the topic.

air

IAMAMORON wrote: »

No BIK on commercial vehicles.

I'm sure you hear this a lot, but username checks out

eddhorse

eddhorse wrote: »

No it wasn't directed at you, someone else also said "no BIK on commercial vehicles".

A recent development is that Revenue are auditing companies which provide company vehicles and are assessing the companies to back-tax plus interest and penalties.

Your argument that "no ones gives a sh1t" may be true but unfortunately we have laws in this country.

If you get away with it great but there is liability there and its not advised to give other people on this thread misinformation regarding the topic.

Look don't be talking nonsense, the Government and multinational Corporations are the greatest tax evaders known.

How are you going to tell a van driver to pay the government money for using a van to go to work who might use the van to drive to the shops at the weekend, someone who might be on low wage now has to pay more money in tax ? not going to happen I can guarantee you that because it can't be proved and you can't make someone pay for something you can't prove they use or not and no one will work for a company who has to pay for a vehicle they must use for work.

This is like asking office workers to pay rent, it's mental.

RandRuns

The reason almost nobody in their right mind pays BIK on a company van is that it is virtually impossible to police it - is it a pool van or a one-driver van? Was that trip to the shop private use, or was the driver instructed to go to the shop to pick up a sandwich for the boss as part of his work duties? Etc. etc.

The pool van exception is the get-out-of-jail-free card in the (extremely unlikely) event company van use is audited for BIK. If the company has more than one employee, and the van insurance allows others to drive it (which pretty much all commerical policies do), then how do Revenue prove it is not a pool van? They can't is the answer.

eddhorse

I agree its a tricky scenario and that it's revenue's job to ascertain whether or not you are liable to pay it.

People should be aware though of the liability for electric cars will not always stay at 0% for under €50,000.

Zenith74

RandRuns wrote: »

The pool van exception is the get-out-of-jail-free card in the (extremely unlikely) event company van use is audited for BIK. If the company has more than one employee, and the van insurance allows others to drive it (which pretty much all commerical policies do), then how do Revenue prove it is not a pool van? They can't is the answer.

A pool van cannot be taken home regularly or it is not a pool van, not that complex tbh.

RandRuns

Zenith74 wrote: »

A pool van cannot be taken home regularly or it is not a pool van, not that complex tbh.

It's not though.

The legislation laying out what a pool van is or isn't says:

a) the vehicle is available to, and actually used by, more than one of the
employees concerned,
b) in the case of each employee, the vehicle is made available to him or her by
reason of the employment,
c) the vehicle is not ordinarily used by any one employee to the exclusion of the
others,
d) in the case of each of the employees concerned, any private use of the
vehicle made by him or her is merely incidental to his or her business use,
and
e) the vehicle is not normally kept overnight at or in the vicinity of any of the
employees’ homes.

How is this proven? Do you imagine that Revenue have crack squads following employees home, and then sitting outside all night to check if the van is kept overnight? And even if they did, how do they prove this is normally done, and wasn't a once- or twice-off event due to early morning starts etc?

It is complex, and thus unworkable. It is designed to be unworkable, so that businesses can function, and revenue can turn a blind eye.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

....... Don't tell me no one does it ? yes they do but guess what ? no one cares.

I can guarantee you my mate doesn't pay BIK on his car van.

You obviously have never driven a work van.

Bla bla.... You don't need to have driven a work van to understand BIK & tax evasion.

There are multiple reputable businesses ensuring their employees pay 5% bik on their work van as the van is used privately.

RandRuns

RandRuns wrote: »

The reason almost nobody in their right mind pays BIK on a company van is that it is virtually impossible to police it - is it a pool van or a one-driver van? Was that trip to the shop private use, or was the driver instructed to go to the shop to pick up a sandwich for the boss as part of his work duties? Etc. etc.

The pool van exception is the get-out-of-jail-free card in the (extremely unlikely) event company van use is audited for BIK. If the company has more than one employee, and the van insurance allows others to drive it (which pretty much all commerical policies do), then how do Revenue prove it is not a pool van? They can't is the answer.

Revenue need to prove nothing, the onus is on who is being audited to prove there tax affairs are in order. Revenue are sort of awkward to deal with.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Look don't be talking nonsense, the Government and multinational Corporations are the greatest tax evaders known.

How are you going to tell a van driver to pay the government money for using a van to go to work who might use the van to drive to the shops at the weekend, someone who might be on low wage now has to pay more money in tax ? not going to happen I can guarantee you that because it can't be proved and you can't make someone pay for something you can't prove they use or not and no one will work for a company who has to pay for a vehicle they must use for work.

This is like asking office workers to pay rent, it's mental.

Anyone on a low wage would be delighted to pay 5% bik on a 20k van if they didn't need to run their own car. It'd be about €6/week out of their pocket.

RandRuns

Augeo wrote: »

Revenue need to prove nothing, the onus is on who is being audited to prove there tax affairs are in order. Revenue are sort of awkward to deal with.

I know, I've been dealing with them for years.

It's quite simple to cover BIK on company vans

"All XYZ Ltd. vans are pool vans, available for use by any relevent employee, and are used for normal business in the course of the employee's work"

Done.

RandRuns

RandRuns wrote: »

I know, I've been dealing with them for years.

It's quite simple to cover BIK on company vans

"All XYZ Ltd. vans are pool vans, available for use by any relevent employee, and are used for normal business in the course of the employee's work"

Done.

Where are they kept at night etc etc etc

radharc

I and everyone else in my company has been paying (small) BIK on company vans for years. Companies can either apply it or choose to ignore the law and take their chances they will duck a Revenue audit. Let's ignore the misinformation and the deliberately argumentative posters and focus on BIK of EVs...

RandRuns

RandRuns wrote: »

The reason almost nobody in their right mind pays BIK on a company van is that it is virtually impossible to police it - is it a pool van or a one-driver van? Was that trip to the shop private use, or was the driver instructed to go to the shop to pick up a sandwich for the boss as part of his work duties? Etc. etc.

The pool van exception is the get-out-of-jail-free card in the (extremely unlikely) event company van use is audited for BIK. If the company has more than one employee, and the van insurance allows others to drive it (which pretty much all commerical policies do), then how do Revenue prove it is not a pool van? They can't is the answer.

You're correct and anyone paying BIK on a company van is mad really because it can't be proven what you do with the van it's robbery really.

If a company told me I had to pay BIK on a van I'd run a mile.

eddhorse

radharc wrote: »

Let's ignore the misinformation and the deliberately argumentative posters and focus on BIK of EVs...

Exactly this.
Mods would be better off removing irrelevant posts in this thread including mine.

Augeo

Augeo wrote: »

Bla bla.... You don't need to have driven a work van to understand BIK & tax evasion.

There are multiple reputable businesses ensuring their employees pay 5% bik on their work van as the van is used privately.

Reputable companies ensure their employees aren't getting screwed if you work for a company and don't use your van for personal use this is then illegal if you are then fond of the legalities.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Reputable companies ensure their employees aren't getting screwed if you work for a company and don't use your van for personal use this is then illegal if you are then fond of the legalities.

Yawn ........... yeah, well of course the 5% BIK is only applicable when there is personal use.

Revenue are increasing the van BIK from 5% to 8% ........... there's obviously more than a few paying it.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Reputable companies ensure their employees aren't getting screwed if you work for a company and don't use your van for personal use this is then illegal if you are then fond of the legalities.

Yawn ........... yeah, well of course the 5% BIK is only applicable when there is personal use. Anyone who has use of a van will use it to be fair.

Revenue are increasing the van BIK from 5% to 8% ........... there's obviously more than a few paying it.

Lets remember the statement that kicked off this debate......... it's obvious as fnck you had no idea what you were talking about and since the BIK situation has been explained to you you have been talking sh1t about your friends and acquaintances none of whom may BIK on their vans.

Deleted User wrote: »

Why don't you just get a van ? you'll have no BIK, .............

liamog

Mod Note: Can we move back to the specifics of BIK on Electric Vehicles please, and a reminder, backseat modding will not be tolerated, use the report button if your unhappy with a post

innrain

Did anybody find the answer. Does BIK exemption still applies?
I was thinking what if it is a typo on the Revenue website?

eddhorse

innrain wrote: »

Did anybody find the answer. Does BIK exemption still applies?
I was thinking what if it is a typo on the Revenue website?

It does say 2019-2022 exemption also on that picture.

grogi

eddhorse wrote: »

It does say 2019-2022 exemption also on that picture.

If you got it in 2020, you will be BIK exempt until 2022.

rocketspocket

grogi wrote: »

If you got it in 2020, you will be BIK exempt until 2022.

What if you get in 2021?