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Sports Coalition boycotts FCP

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12467…13

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    #92
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,448 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    How is everyone's e-mail/letters writing going? Any replies? If not don't worry, as long as you let your opinions be known to the same people the sc contacted.
    Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

    If you see a problem post use the report post function. Click on the three dots on the post, select "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.

    Moderators - Cass otmmyboy2 , CatMod - Shamboc , Admins - Beasty , mickeroo



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    #93
    extremetaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,391 ✭✭✭extremetaz


    I got an acknowledgement, but that's about it.


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    #94
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Cass wrote: »
    How is everyone's e-mail/letters writing going? Any replies? If not don't worry, as long as you let your opinions be known to the same people the sc contacted.

    I'd say everyone who writes will get this standard letter. Sorry about the large size, I'm not very technical and didn't know how to make it smaller.

    3IK.jpg


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    #95
    gunny123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭gunny123


    Cass wrote: »
    How is everyone's e-mail/letters writing going? Any replies? If not don't worry, as long as you let your opinions be known to the same people the sc contacted.

    I got an email today from Stantons office, the usual "we have received and will be in touch" yadda yadda yadda.


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    #96
    plinker66
    Registered Users Posts: 11 ✭plinker66


    Update
    A survey form has been sent to all FCP members and potential members by D.O.J. On it are questions about who they represent, membership numbers, elections etc. Difficult to bs your way out of this but we know who we are dealing with


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    #97
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    plinker66 wrote: »
    Update
    A survey form has been sent to all FCP members and potential members by D.O.J. On it are questions about who they represent, membership numbers, elections etc. Difficult to bs your way out of this but we know who we are dealing with

    I hope the Minister does his due diligence and just doesn't accept at face value the number of people certain organisations on the FCP claim to represent.


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    #98
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,448 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    ............. and now the danger of the nasrpc being affiliated to or a member of the so called coalition becomes clear.

    With the membership numbers of the nasrpc the so called coalition seem to be a strong force and without the nasrpc they are nothing.

    The nasrpc needs to step up to the plate and declare, openly and without the bullsh*t i've been fed so far, where they stand.
    Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

    If you see a problem post use the report post function. Click on the three dots on the post, select "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.

    Moderators - Cass otmmyboy2 , CatMod - Shamboc , Admins - Beasty , mickeroo



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    #99
    plinker66
    Registered Users Posts: 11 ✭plinker66


    The way i see it the nasrpc would have to relinquish their right to represent themselves by having sc represent them or they withdraw from sc and take their own seat either way one seat would be the most they would be entitled to instead of five


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    #100
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    plinker66 wrote: »
    The way i see it the nasrpc would have to relinquish their right to represent themselves by having sc represent them or they withdraw from sc and take their own seat either way one seat would be the most they would be entitled to instead of five

    I don't think the NASRPC would lose their seat on the FCP as they were given the seat at a time when they weren't members of the SC.

    By the way, there is no entitlement to seats on the FCP no matter how many shooters an organisation represents. Which organisations get a seat or seats at the table is decided by the Minister.

    But as Cass said, if the NASRPC left the SC, then the SC would be a pretty hollow organisation representing very few shooters.

    I can only assume from the NASRPC silence on the matter that they are happy to be part of an organisation that appears to be doing harm to the interests of shooters.

    Someone can correct me if I'm mistaken but do the FCP have sub-committees that meet and make submissions to the Minister without the involvement of the rest of the FCP? If so, that's dangerous territory right there.

    Maybe I'm being naïve but would it not be better to have everything discussed by everyone to prevent stupid proposals being forwarded to the Minister? Because if the Minister implements them, he can always say "The FCP recommended that" when in fact it was just a small group that met in secret within the FCP.


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    #101
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Someone can correct me if I'm mistaken but do the FCP have sub-committees that meet and make submissions to the Minister without the involvement of the rest of the FCP? If so, that's dangerous territory right there.
    Unless it's changed, the sub-committees being formed and their terms of reference would be known to the entire FCP; they'd operate independently because that's what they're for; and they'd submit their results to the FCP as a whole.
    Whether that constitutes a seperate step to submitting them to the Minister is a bit fuzzy because the FCP is nominally chaired by the Minister (but that's always devolved to the relevant Principal Officer because it'd be silly otherwise) so by presenting to the whole FCP, you automatically show the Minister the idea, even if only nominally.
    Whether the whole FCP approves it, that's obviously a different matter.

    And that was how it originally worked and how this sort of thing normally works; if specific changes have since been made, I don't know about them.


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    #102
    Backbarrel
    Registered Users Posts: 156 ✭✭Backbarrel


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    I hope the Minister does his due diligence and just doesn't accept at face value the number of people certain organisations on the FCP claim to represent.

    Due diligence is needed, definitely.

    Heard that the massed ranks of the sports coalition of vested interests are meeting in Portlaoise tonight. Maybe in a phone booth but probably the Maldron..

    Part AGM- part survey filling in marathon before time runs out.

    Heard a rumour at the department that extra time was needed to get the form filling done.

    Soo lucky it snowed.. That survey put the cat among the pigeons...


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    #103
    gunny123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭gunny123


    Sparks wrote: »
    Unless it's changed, the sub-committees being formed and their terms of reference would be known to the entire FCP; they'd operate independently because that's what they're for; and they'd submit their results to the FCP as a whole.

    Could those terms of reference be so wide, or vague eg. "security for gun dealers", that once a sub-committee scurry off, they can do what they like ?


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    #104
    cavan shooter
    Registered Users Posts: 3,070 ✭✭✭cavan shooter


    Backbarrel wrote: »
    BattleCorp wrote: »
    I hope the Minister does his due diligence and just doesn't accept at face value the number of people certain organisations on the FCP claim to represent.

    Due diligence is needed, definitely.

    Heard that the massed ranks of the sports coalition of vested interests are meeting in Portlaoise tonight. Maybe in a phone booth but probably the Maldron..

    Part AGM- part survey filling in marathon before time runs out.

    Heard a rumour at the department that extra time was needed to get the form filling done.

    Soo lucky it snowed.. That survey put the cat among the pigeons...

    Now that is a coincidence... heard that too i was in Cork the last couple of weeks and heard that last night at work. Those fluckers will not die.......if the rumour is through I bet you could list the so called members, annoyingly at Least 6 are still members of the NARGC and where once on the table, they are so desperate to keep in control I'd say it's so they get the chance to **** us over and lob in more **** bombs and keep there friends well looked after.

    Since the rumour mill is running how true is it that 2 members of Dublin NARGC openly pushed for the county to leave but they were ran from the room.


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    #105
    solarwinds
    Registered Users Posts: 535 ✭✭✭solarwinds


    If the SC state they have x no. thousand members who is there to challenge them on that figure. They can say what they like and who is to know.
    I mean one or two dealers managed to get laws put in place that have affected an entire industry based on them being representitive of the sector. But they are not, no one asked do you represent yourself or the hundreds of dealers. The powers that be took it that they had the backing of the industry to make these decisions and recomendations on their behalf.
    My point being, who on the panel will question what they are being told and take the time to verify.


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    #106
    solarwinds
    Registered Users Posts: 535 ✭✭✭solarwinds


    If the SC state they have x no. thousand members who is there to challenge them on that figure. They can say what they like and who is to know.
    I mean one or two dealers managed to get laws put in place that have affected an entire industry based on them being representitive of the sector. But they are not, no one asked do you represent yourself or the hundreds of dealers. The powers that be took it that they had the backing of the industry to make these decisions and recomendations on their behalf.
    My point being, who on the panel will question what they are being told and take the time to verify.


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    #107
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 14,943 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Slap up on the table some written membership figures, and corresponding revenue tax returns would be a good start.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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    #108
    solarwinds
    Registered Users Posts: 535 ✭✭✭solarwinds


    Their friends in the nasrpc could provide this i imagine.


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    #109
    cavan shooter
    Registered Users Posts: 3,070 ✭✭✭cavan shooter


    solarwinds wrote: »
    Their friends in the nasrpc could provide this i imagine.

    Nah, id say the 24000 NARGC, CAI and ICTSA grouping would tell them to Fluch off outa here.....

    Last seen 2 men standing on O Connell street pleading with strangers to sign up...to SC.....oh how the mighty have fallen.


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    #110
    Nekarsulm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,189 ✭✭✭✭Nekarsulm


    Was it the last, or second last issue of the Irish Shooters Digest had a report and photo of a new grouping of Gun dealers?
    What has happened to this fledgling organisation?


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    #111
    Walter Mittys Brother
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 314 ✭✭Walter Mittys Brother


    solarwinds wrote: »
    Their friends in the nasrpc could provide this i imagine.

    Who are the members of the nasrpc? The clubs/ranges. All 19 odd of them. It's not the members of the 19 clubs it's the clubs/ranges? Or have I it wrong?


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    #112
    solarwinds
    Registered Users Posts: 535 ✭✭✭solarwinds


    Walter Mittys Brother wrote: »
    solarwinds wrote: »
    Their friends in the nasrpc could provide this i imagine.

    Who are the members of the nasrpc? The clubs/ranges. All 19 odd of them. It's not the members of the 19 clubs it's the clubs/ranges? Or have I it wrong?


    Thats true from my understanding. But whats to stop them using them their members numbers. Membership by association.
    If i am a member of a club and my club is is affiliated to the sc the id say they would think we are defacto members.
    As a wise man once told me "paper won't refuse ink".


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    #113
    cavan shooter
    Registered Users Posts: 3,070 ✭✭✭cavan shooter


    Your guaranteed they will pull something. I believe Countrysports Ireland is cozying up to the Sports Coalition of vested interests. So there is 15 members, that fishing shower havent moved on so there is another 3, then you have disgruntled ex NARGC people who are mad keen to do anything to damage their organisation so that's another 10 and then you have the 2 firearms dealers for whom the SC pushed through the draconian security SI to put small dealers out of business.

    It is going to be the other groupings CAI, NARGC etc that will hold them to account the Minister is spineless he won't tackle them, then again why would he is getting an anti hunting anti gun agenda pushed through by quislings.


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    #114
    plinker66
    Registered Users Posts: 11 ✭plinker66


    YES the firearms dealers security sub-committee did exactly that and the SI 646 was not shown to the FCP until months after being signed into law


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    #115
    plinker66
    Registered Users Posts: 11 ✭plinker66


    Nekarsulm wrote: »
    Was it the last, or second last issue of the Irish Shooters Digest had a report and photo of a new grouping of Gun dealers?
    What has happened to this fledgling organisation?

    Irish Gun Trade Assoc. are currently working on having SI 646 overturned. Not an easy task to undo what SC have done


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    #116
    cavan shooter
    Registered Users Posts: 3,070 ✭✭✭cavan shooter


    Let me guess that's the other 2 firearms dealers in the country..?? Who do these represent, I have to be a doubting Thomas here. We were beat into believing The Sports Coalition of Vested interests representented all the dealers.


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    #117
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    cavan shooter wrote: »
    the Minister is spineless he won't tackle them
    The Minister hasn't any dog in the hunt from what I can tell, so (a) why would he stick his nose into a very internecine squabble, and (b) why would we want him to? The day Ministers start dealing directly with things like this is going to be quite a dangerous one because they don't always get it right, but their word is almost effectively law...


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    #118
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    solarwinds wrote: »
    Thats true from my understanding. But whats to stop them using them their members numbers. Membership by association.
    If i am a member of a club and my club is is affiliated to the sc the id say they would think we are defacto members.

    The thing is, many clubs are associated with many NGBs (which isn't nefarious, it's practical; clubs have many members, some will shoot one thing, some will shoot another, so they affiliate to all the relevant NGBs).
    It makes figuring out these numbers quite difficult which is another reason why the club membership idea is such a pain in the backside.

    However, when seen at the FCP level, unless that's explained carefully, some civil servant is going to think someone's fiddling the numbers and that is going to be a bit awkward...


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    #119
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    cavan shooter wrote: »
    Let me guess that's the other 2 firearms dealers in the country..?? Who do these represent, I have to be a doubting Thomas here. We were beat into believing The Sports Coalition of Vested interests representented all the dealers.

    From what I understand, there was an original RFD association (the Irish Gun Trade Association) and the one which is a member of the SC and oversaw the new SI is a new group (I think that's the Irish Firearms Dealers Association, but I may be wrong, it's not really my area).
    I haven't yet met an RFD who's heard of that new group or is a member of it, but I don't know too many RFDs so that could just be sample bias.

    It'd be interesting to see why one group was represented on the relevant subcommittee and the other was not...


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    #120
    gunny123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭gunny123


    Sparks wrote: »
    From what I understand, there was an original RFD association (the Irish Gun Trade Association) and the one which is a member of the SC and oversaw the new SI is a new group (I think that's the Irish Firearms Dealers Association, but I may be wrong, it's not really my area).
    I haven't yet met an RFD who's heard of that new group or is a member of it, but I don't know too many RFDs so that could just be sample bias.

    It'd be interesting to see why one group was represented on the relevant subcommittee and the other was not...

    Well thats all a bit irish isn't it ? There is already gun trade association, but a couple of chancers set up a rival association with two members and somehow they are the ones who end up on the fcp !

    It would be hilarious if it wasn't so serious.


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    #121
    berettaman
    Registered Users Posts: 553 ✭✭✭berettaman


    Sparks wrote: »
    From what I understand, there was an original RFD association (the Irish Gun Trade Association) and the one which is a member of the SC and oversaw the new SI is a new group (I think that's the Irish Firearms Dealers Association, but I may be wrong, it's not really my area).
    I haven't yet met an RFD who's heard of that new group or is a member of it, but I don't know too many RFDs so that could just be sample bias.

    It'd be interesting to see why one group was represented on the relevant subcommittee and the other was not...

    Okay, there is a Monty python vibe to all this..


    The Firearms dealers that are on the FCP are not the Old Firearms dealers association as far as I know..

    The old Firearms dealers Association reformed last year in Mullingar. (The old treasurer arrived in with the bank statement from their previous time in existence.) About 50 RFDs were there that night. Chairman is from Clare.

    They are attempting to gain representation at the FCP. I think you will see a parliamentary questions about that or the like shortly.

    They are the REPS for the RFDs and they are not around the table.

    Makes a mockery of the latest SI that came out..


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