Against the head

Digifriendly · 27-11-2012 12:22pm

Why can't RTE show action from the other tests? All we got were still pictures. OK they maybe don't hold the rights but BBC were able to show Argentina's try vs France with caption 'pictures courtesy of ESPN.' Why could RTE not have done this? Programme had too much chat and not enough match action and now won't return until end of January.

jm08 · 27-11-2012 12:23pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

There's no such thing as a midweek team anymore, there's only one 'midweek' game during the tests. The games before the tests will be used to decide on the test team.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_British_and_Irish_Lions_tour_to_Australia

Was that not always the case? Jonathan Sexton can't play every game. Quinlan probably was never going to be a test starter when he was selected.

JustinDee · 27-11-2012 12:23pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

There's no such thing as a midweek team anymore, there's only one 'midweek' game during the tests. The games before the tests will be used to decide on the test team

There most certainly is a midweek squad for the Lions tour to Aussie, as with the previous, if memory serves me right.
There are games taking place every three or four days. Not usually a game between 2nd and 3rd anyway.

phog · 27-11-2012 12:24pm

.ak wrote: »

Really? I thought each pundit got to pick their section. Hence when Mal picked Rees the other two didn't seem to agree.

and Frankie said he'd put BOD at 13 but he was listed at 12

jm08 · 27-11-2012 12:25pm

Digifriendly wrote: »

Why can't RTE show action from the other tests? All we got were still pictures. OK they maybe don't hold the rights but BBC were able to show Argentina's try vs France with caption 'pictures courtesy of ESPN.' Why could RTE not have done this? Programme had too much chat and not enough match action and now won't return until end of January.

Most people can get BBC in Ireland, so it would only be duplication.

Digifriendly · 27-11-2012 12:31pm

jm08 wrote: »

Most people can get BBC in Ireland, so it would only be duplication.

Most people in Ireland could have seen Glasgow vs Leinster and Munster vs Scarlets yet they showed brief highlights of these.

jm08 · 27-11-2012 12:32pm

.ak wrote: »

Which is still a load of rubbish.

Wilko maybe in that context.... ROG will offer nothing but being an older lad.

How do you know what he has to offer on a Tour like this? There are other things at play here as well as playing skills. One plus, he seems to get on well with other players (at least no one seems to bitch about him in their books anyway).

jm08 · 27-11-2012 12:34pm

Digifriendly wrote: »

Most people in Ireland could have seen Glasgow vs Leinster and Munster vs Scarlets yet they showed brief highlights of these.

Irish teams that they hold the highlight rights to. They have only shown the Ireland games this series

.ak · 27-11-2012 12:35pm

jm08 wrote: »

How do you know what he has to offer on a Tour like this? There are other things at play here as well as playing skills. One plus, he seems to get on well with other players (at least no one seems to bitch about him in their books anyway).

Okay, you list the reasons then - and please no off-field reasons.

Higher · 27-11-2012 12:41pm

.ak wrote: »

Okay, you list the reasons then - and please no off-field reasons.

Well if he offers anything like what he offered to Ireland during his appearances in the AI then maybe he should stay at home.

Especially after his contribution to the Lions tour last time......
(He actually has a bit of a habit of kicking away possession when the clock has run out and his team is in search of points)

Digifriendly · 27-11-2012 12:45pm

jm08 wrote: »

Irish teams that they hold the highlight rights to. They have only shown the Ireland games this series

This is one of the weaknesses IMHO about the programme compared to both Scotland and Wales. STV's weekly highlights shows action from all Rabo Direct matches and while Scrum V concentrates on the Welsh teams does show Munster vs Leinster highlights as well. We need RTE to show a weekly programme with Rabo Direct and AIL coverage.

jm08 · 27-11-2012 1:54pm

.ak wrote: »

Okay, you list the reasons then - and please no off-field reasons.

Toured with the Lions previously (and there could be few enough tourists with previous experience.
Done the Dirt Track bit - played all the Super Rugby teams (as they are now known). Captained a few of them.
Could assist as kicking coach.

Wilko would have similar attributes.

jm08 · 27-11-2012 2:00pm

Digifriendly wrote: »

This is one of the weaknesses IMHO about the programme compared to both Scotand and Wales. STV's weekly highlights shows action from all Rabo Direct matches and while Scrum V concentrates on the Welsh teams does show Munster vs Leinster highlights as well. We need RTE to show a weekly programme with Rabo Direct and AIL coverage.

RTE has only 2 channels unlike BBC who has tons of them. BBC don't have to cover GAA either. Champions League etc. is all on RTE2, premiership prog., Eircom League etc. are all on RTE2.

FYI - you can get some AIL games here.

http://www.aertv.ie/

molloyjh · 27-11-2012 2:36pm

jm08 wrote: »

Toured with the Lions previously (and there could be few enough tourists with previous experience.
Done the Dirt Track bit - played all the Super Rugby teams (as they are now known). Captained a few of them.
Could assist as kicking coach.

Wilko would have similar attributes.

Sure we may as well bring Willie John McBride based on this kind of "logic"! :rolleyes:

.ak · 27-11-2012 3:00pm

jm08 wrote: »

Toured with the Lions previously (and there could be few enough tourists with previous experience.
Done the Dirt Track bit - played all the Super Rugby teams (as they are now known). Captained a few of them.
Could assist as kicking coach.

Wilko would have similar attributes.

I said please no off-field reasons. What on-field reasons would there be to bring him? If they wanted a kicking coach they'd bring a kicking coach. Why waste money on bringing a player who can't play?

shuffol · 27-11-2012 3:25pm

Would ROG really be that positive an influence in camp, I mean this is the same guy who threw a strop and announced his retirement after not being picked in the WC. I wouldnt have thought he's the type of guy who'd be very popular with other players(respected yes), not least if he wasnt selected on merit, should they designate a couple of spots every tour to a couple of oldies because they've tour experience or should they be allowing guys who deserve to be there enjoy that experience.

jm08 · 27-11-2012 3:31pm

molloyjh wrote: »

Sure we may as well bring Willie John McBride based on this kind of "logic"! :rolleyes:

Willie John was on the last one handing out jerseys and doing motivational stuff

jm08 · 27-11-2012 3:41pm

.ak wrote: »

I said please no off-field reasons. What on-field reasons would there be to bring him? If they wanted a kicking coach they'd bring a kicking coach. Why waste money on bringing a player who can't play?

I suspect when he gets gametime with Munster he will get a bit of form as he has had a very disjoined season this year and has played very little rugby down to injury and player management (13 minutes since 13th October when he got injured against Racing Metro).

Now, since you don't rate the challenge of the Lions to get the squad to gel, both on and off the pitch, I won't bore you any further.

jm08 · 27-11-2012 3:48pm

shuffol wrote: »

Would ROG really be that positive an influence in camp, I mean this is the same guy who threw a strop and announced his retirement after not being picked in the WC. I wouldnt have thought he's the type of guy who'd be very popular with other players(respected yes), not least if he wasnt selected on merit, should they designate a couple of spots every tour to a couple of oldies because they've tour experience or should they be allowing guys who deserve to be there enjoy that experience.

Well, if you look at his twitter account (he doesn't use it that much) he seems to be fairly friendly with players from all over the world. He seems to have great banter with Mike Phillips, I've seen photos of him dining out with Martyn Williams (POC & Casey). BOD, Shaggy, Rob Kearney, Wally, POC all seem to get on very well with him.

Hagz · 27-11-2012 3:52pm

Isn't this a pointless discussion. O'Gara won't come close to making the Lions tour.

Higher · 27-11-2012 4:19pm

Ok so the reasons for bringing O'Gara are:

(1) Hes friendly with the players
(2) He could be a kicking coach
(3) Hes been on a Lions tour before
(4) He could be a motivator for the players

jm08 are you having a laugh?

.ak · 27-11-2012 4:40pm

Ah, I'd say he's good to have on the lash. May as well bring him and pay him a wage like.

jm08 · 27-11-2012 4:46pm

.ak wrote: »

Ah, I'd say he's good to have on the lash. May as well bring him and pay him a wage like.

Considering Quinlan's point was that the options were poor elsewhere, you may as well bring O'Gara or Wilko. Not too sure if Wilko would be up for going on the lash, like.

thomond2006 · 27-11-2012 4:51pm

jm08 wrote: »

Willie John was on the last one handing out jerseys and doing motivational stuff

Willie John wasn't in the playing squad!

The thought of ROG touring is nonsense, of course ROG will aim to play himself into contention (why wouldn't he?) but he's far off being in the top three best British/Irish 10s. Sexton, Biggar, Hook, Flood and Laidlaw are all better options.

If someone is taken for your reasons, Wilkinson is a far better choice than ROG.

.ak · 27-11-2012 4:52pm

jm08 wrote: »

Considering Quinlan's point was that the options were poor elsewhere, you may as well bring O'Gara or Wilko. Not too sure if Wilko would be up for going on the lash, like.

Are they poor else where? Biggar, Cipriani, Priestland would all be ahead of ROG, even with the latter playing so badly at the moment.

Atleast Wilko is playing decent rugby at the moment.

jm08 · 27-11-2012 4:59pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

Willie John wasn't in the playing squad!

The thought of ROG touring is nonsense, of course ROG will aim to play himself into contention (why wouldn't he?) but he's far off being in the top three best British/Irish 10s.

Quinlan doesn't rate any of them after Sexton (maybe Flood) - thats why he thinks Wilko or ROG are in with a shot.

As a matter of interest, who would you rate after Sexton?

edit: Willie John was on the tour though for some reason!

jm08 · 27-11-2012 5:05pm

.ak wrote: »

Are they poor else where? Biggar, Cipriani, Priestland would all be ahead of ROG, even with the latter playing so badly at the moment.

Atleast Wilko is playing decent rugby at the moment.

Gatland does not seem to rate Biggar, Priestland is playing poorly and Cipriani is likely to be a handfull to deal with off-field. Hook maybe in with a shout, but who knows?

Wilko will be left out if Toulon make the final of the Top 14.

Best option otherwise is Toby Flood.

Hagz · 27-11-2012 5:08pm

jm08 wrote: »

Gatland does not seem to rate Biggar, Priestland is playing poorly and Cipriani is likely to be a handfull to deal with off-field. Hook maybe in with a shout, but who knows?

Wilko will be left out if Toulon make the final of the Top 14.

Best option otherwise is Toby Flood.

Greg Laidlaw
Toby Flood
Charlie Hodgson
Johnny Wilkinson
Owen Farrell
Rhys Priestland
Paddy Jackson
Ian Madigan

I could go on.

Tox56 · 27-11-2012 5:12pm

ROG is barely clinging on to the title of 3rd best outhalf in Ireland at the moment, nevermind the 3rd best in all of Britain/Ireland.

jm08 · 27-11-2012 5:18pm

Hagz wrote: »

Greg Laidlaw
Toby Flood
Charlie Hodgson
Johnny Wilkinson
Owen Farrell
Rhys Priestland
Paddy Jackson
Ian Madigan

I could go on.

Toby Flood & Wilkinson are runners at OH.
Charlie Hodgson has never done it at OH. He loses his bottle too easily.
Owen Farrell - should have pointed out to his captain that it was a waste of time losing by 1pt. to SA.
Priestland - have you not noticed how poorly wales are playing at the moment?

Paddy Jackson - could be in with a shot
Ian Madigan - not a chance when he is not starting HC or Ireland games.

thomond2006 · 27-11-2012 5:19pm

The kick against SA is Robshaw's responsibility, not Farrell's. If Farrell had persisted in arguing, it could have been more embarrassing. Holding that against Farrell is pretty silly tbh and a stupid reason for not picking him. Did you expect Farrell to have a hissy fit before he got his way?

jm08 · 27-11-2012 5:22pm

Tox56 wrote: »

ROG is barely clinging on to the title of 3rd best outhalf in Ireland at the moment, nevermind the 3rd best in all of Britain/Ireland.

Since he hasn't really played since he got injured on 13th October, thats a fair comment.

Lets see what happens between now and next May.

Foxtrol · 27-11-2012 5:24pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

The kick against SA is Robshaw's responsibility, not Farrell's. If Farrell had persisted in arguing, it could have been more embarrassing. Holding that against Farrell is pretty silly tbh and a stupid reason for not picking him. Did you expect Farrell to have a hissy fit before he got his way?

ROG style?? :pac: :pac: :pac:

buck65 · 27-11-2012 5:26pm

Biggar would be my choice to go with Sexton, maybe Farrell then but certainly not ROG, Wilko, Madigan or Priestland.
We could have a bolter yet at outhalf. Paddy J?

Hagz · 27-11-2012 5:26pm

jm08 wrote: »

Toby Flood & Wilkinson are runners at OH.
Charlie Hodgson has never done it at OH. He loses his bottle too easily.
Owen Farrell - should have pointed out to his captain that it was a waste of time losing by 1pt. to SA.
Priestland - have you not noticed how poorly wales are playing at the moment?

Paddy Jackson - could be in with a shot
Ian Madigan - not a chance when he is not starting HC or Ireland games.

Ahem. Okay, this should put things to bed. In O'Gara's whole career, he has never ever ever been rated highly enough to start for the Lions in a test match. Okay. He has NEVER started for the Lions in a test match. He was on tour in 2001/2005/2009 in 2001 he made the bench for one of the tests, didn't come off it. In 2005 he made the bench for two of the tests and in 2009 he made the bench in two of the tests only coming off in one of the games playing 13 minutes (in which he had a horror show).

So now, at a time where O'Gara is playing the worst rugby in his career, do you honestly think there is any possibility that Gatland would bring him? Why would he bring someone who's 36, never started in a test match for the Lions, playing the worst rugby of his career to date?

It's obvious you have a strong affection towards O'Gara, but the reality is, if all those options I listed were eligible for Ireland, they would deserve to be a head of him at the moment.

27-11-2012 5:26pm

Tox56 wrote: »

ROG is barely clinging on to the title of is no longer even the 3rd best outhalf in Ireland at the moment, nevermind the 3rd best in all of Britain/Ireland.

In terms of playing a cup final tomorrow

Sexton >>>>> Jackson>>> Madigan>> Keatley >>> ROG

imo

jm08 · 27-11-2012 5:27pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

The kick against SA is Robshaw's responsibility, not Farrell's. If Farrell had persisted in arguing, it could have been more embarrassing. Holding that against Farrell is pretty silly tbh and a stupid reason for not picking him. Did you expect Farrell to have a hissy fit before he got his way?

Why would he need to have a hissy fit? Most captains consult their OHs as a matter of course anyway.

Not referring to him suggests that he isn't a decision maker. Besides, England were hardly riveting with him as OH. All they do is go for penalties.

jm08 · 27-11-2012 5:38pm

Hagz wrote: »

Ahem. Okay, this should put things to bed. In O'Gara's whole career, he has never ever ever been rated highly enough to start for the Lions in a test match. Okay. He has NEVER started for the Lions in a test match. He was on tour in 2001/2005/2009 in 2001 he made the bench for one of the tests, didn't come off it. In 2005 he made the bench for two of the tests and in 2009 he made the bench in two of the tests only coming off in one of the games playing 13 minutes (in which he had a horror show).

So now, at a time where O'Gara is playing the worst rugby in his career, do you honestly think there is any possibility that Gatland would bring him? Why would he bring someone who's 36, never started in a test match for the Lions, playing the worst rugby of his career to date?

It's obvious you have a strong affection towards O'Gara, but the reality is, if all those options I listed were eligible for Ireland, they would deserve to be a head of him at the moment.

You keep going on about Test matches - there are only 3 of them (and presumably Sexton will be starting those).

O'Gara could be an option in the role that Quinlan was picked for the last time - an older, experienced head.

O'Gara has experience of playing with all of these teams, and if he is starting OH for Munster for the HCup, he will be well in with a chance to go to lead the dirt trackers.

Lots of people seem to have a strong affection towards O'Gara judging from the cheer he got last week when he came on despite his disasterous showing against SA

Tox56 · 27-11-2012 5:40pm

jm08 wrote: »

Why would he need to have a hissy fit? Most captains consult their OHs as a matter of course anyway.

Not referring to him suggests that he isn't a decision maker. Besides, England were hardly riveting with him as OH. All they do is go for penalties.

But when ROG plays Munster/Ireland are simply electric?

Hagz · 27-11-2012 5:44pm

jm08 wrote: »

You keep going on about Test matches - there are only 3 of them (and presumably Sexton will be starting those).

Because they are all that matters. If you think otherwise you're mistaken.

jm08 wrote: »

Lots of people seem to have a strong affection towards O'Gara judging from the cheer he got last week when he came on despite his disasterous showing against SA

Lots of people are casual rugby fans who don't watch club rugby. They see headlines like last minute drop goal saves Munster and then scratch their heads when O'Gara doesn't start for Ireland. Equally, lots of people don't like Sexton.

Higher · 27-11-2012 5:53pm

jm08 wrote: »

You keep going on about Test matches - there are only 3 of them (and presumably Sexton will be starting those).

O'Gara could be an option in the role that Quinlan was picked for the last time - an older, experienced head.

O'Gara has experience of playing with all of these teams, and if he is starting OH for Munster for the HCup, he will be well in with a chance to go to lead the dirt trackers.

Lots of people seem to have a strong affection towards O'Gara judging from the cheer he got last week when he came on despite his disasterous showing against SA

No one in their right mind would risk having ROG as the back up outhalf for the Lions by bringing him. One injury to an outhalf and he would be on the bench.

jm08 · 27-11-2012 5:55pm

Hagz wrote: »

Because they are all that matters. If you think otherwise you're mistaken.

They are all building blocks. If they don't matter why play them in the first place?

Lots of people are casual rugby fans who don't watch club rugby. They see headlines like last minute drop goal saves Munster and then scratch their heads when O'Gara doesn't start for Ireland. Equally, lots of people don't like Sexton.

So you reckon there are a lot of Ireland fans who are willing to pay out a lot of money to watch Ireland play in the Aviva but they don't watch club rugby and get all their info from the the headlines?

Higher · 27-11-2012 5:55pm

jm08 wrote: »

Lots of people seem to have a strong affection towards O'Gara judging from the cheer he got last week when he came on despite his disasterous showing against SA

Oh another reason to add to jm08's reasons to bring O'Gara:

(5) He gets big cheers from crowds despite poor performances.

jm08 · 27-11-2012 5:57pm

Higher wrote: »

No one in their right mind would risk having ROG as the back up outhalf for the Lions by bringing him. One injury to an outhalf and he would be on the bench.

They will bring 3 - Flood/Hook can play centre as well, so would be useful options for Test matches.

Higher · 27-11-2012 5:59pm

jm08 wrote: »

So you reckon there are a lot of Ireland fans who are willing to pay out a lot of money to watch Ireland play in the Aviva but they don't watch club rugby and get all their info from the the headlines?

jm08 what on earth are you trying to argue here

Are you actually trying to claim that a crowd's cheer should determine whether a player is brought on tour?

Or you trying to say that ROG has been performing well and deserves a Lion tour on the basis of the crowd's cheer?

Or are you trying to argue that ROG should go because the crowd likes him?

Because all of them are really stupid reasons.

jm08 · 27-11-2012 6:00pm

Higher wrote: »

Oh another reason to add to jm08's reasons to bring O'Gara:

(5) He gets big cheers from crowds despite poor performances.

No. That comment was in response to this. Nothing to do with going on the Lions.

It's obvious you have a strong affection towards O'Gara, but the reality is, if all those options I listed were eligible for Ireland, they would deserve to be a head of him at the moment.

Higher · 27-11-2012 6:01pm

jm08 wrote: »

They will bring 3 - Flood/Hook can play centre as well, so would be useful options for Test matches.

even if they brought 5 he wouldn't be anywhere near the list.

Hes not even in the top 3 outhalfs in Ireland for crying out loud. :rolleyes:

smurphy29 · 27-11-2012 6:01pm

Arguing with jm08 is like trying to pick up mercury with a fork. The very idea that this is up for discussion is hilarious. It's been put forward by Alan Quinlan, who is clearly not a disinterested party. jm08's theory seems to be that ROG will be picked because none of the others are playing well, but the fact that ROG is playing like a bag of nails is apparently irrelevant, because he's going to play himself into form over the next few months. Does the same not apply to Flood, Priestland etc.

I would love to ask jm08 to put his money where his mouth is and ofer people a price on ROG making the tour to see how much he believes his own daft logic.

The Jaw · 27-11-2012 6:04pm

I do agree with Frankie being compromised by his role as a players agent. ( I have lost count of the times he references Ian Nagle out of nowhere) but in fairness BBC Norn Iron use Ryan Constable and Jan Cunningham a lot. Constable is the biggest agent in the Country in terms of numbers of active players and Cunningham works for him too.

Gargled · 27-11-2012 6:06pm

What is the title of this thread again?

Relating to Against the Head I nearly fell off my chair in disbelief at the team selected. O'Driscoll at 12 and Gilroy starting were the highlights.

Equally shocking was Cahills coverage of the Rabo. Think he should be put forward for a drugs test...

Poor Mal seemed to be a deer caught in the floodlights. The man talked for circa 6 minutes without saying anything at all!

Seriously I don't think anyone that isn't a big rugby fan would watch this muck. It has the entertainment value of a wet carrot. The best bit is the montage for the competition...

Against the head

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