Anti-vaxxers

rawn wrote: »

You can get tested for diseases caused by vaccines?? I don't follow your logic here.

Think you misunderstood something here, I was answering the other poster about getting tested for a compromised immune system. Nothing to do with Vaccines at all.

Igotadose wrote: »

Skeptical Raptor's published his top-ten articles list debunking anti-vax and other pseudoscience mythology. Some goodies there (Japan bans Gardasil! So-and-so's kid dies from vaccination! Bananas prevent cancer!)

https://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/2018-top-ten-list-skeptical-raptor/#The_official_2018_top_ten_list_of_articles

Relating to the MSG article...

I'll just mention one thing from my direct experience.
For 30 years and more I've tended to avoid pre-processed and packaged foods. Whenever I eat them, I sometimes enjoy them, but I also notice I want to eat more. Hmm...
A long time back I put two and two together and possibly came up with five anna half, I don't know, but there seemed to me (directly, I only relate my own experience) there was a correlation of some sort between the presence of MSG and my appetite.
It's my contention that some individuals are affected by the presence of MSG not just as a flavour enhancer (and I do like it for that) but also as an appetite stimulant.


Anyway, I only throw that in as a side note to the debate. Make of it what you will. I'd also like to point out that I do have some scientific background and training, fwiw, I'm not just coming at this half-cocked and because I'm anti-science like most of these loons; far from it.

Вашему собственному бычьему дерьму нельзя верить - V Putin

sullivlo wrote: »

https://ascienceenthusiast.com/fox-news-anti-vaxx-commentator-bre-payton-dies-at-26-likely-from-swine-flu/?fbclid=IwAR3fGjMfZVYMAKFOJKFO0TseCyW1fD5Tl09x8B5xjVahvrVX-Sly4ef-mrw

Someone needlessly dies from preventable by vaccination swine flu. Person was openly antivax.

RIP.

The article states they don't know if she got the flu shot or not, they're just assuming she didn't. Fox News at its finest!

Anyways it just shows how dangerous the flu can be, she went from perfectly healthy to dead within 2 days, and at such a young age. An awful tragedy, vaxxed or not.

No, nothing really around to suggest that she was actively anti-vax or had made any decision not to get a flu vaccination. 19 year olds share/retweet all sorts of nonsense on social media. A conservative christian girl in the US is very likely to be anti-vax until they're exposed to information outside of their immediate community.

It was really just a freak complication of H1N1 rather than some kind of poetic justice.

This year's flu is a bad one per the latest from the CDC: https://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/2018-2019-flu-season-interim-statistics-7-million-cases/. 42 dead in California alone.

FWIW I personally know several people who have or have had the flu here in Corca Dhuibhne, just ran into a friend yesterday coming out of the Doctors who said, "Stay away I've got the flu!"

Get your jab.

I know someone whose brother was vaccine injured and left severely disabled. It definitely was due to a vaccine and he received a payout from the government to go towards his lifetime care as he will never live independently. She has decided not to vaccinate her child for this reason and i completely understand why she would feel this way. Yes, cases like that are rare but they do happen. Not everyone who chooses not to vaccinate are crazy conspiracy theorists

ceadaoin. wrote: »

I know someone whose brother was vaccine injured and left severely disabled. It definitely was due to a vaccine and he received a payout from the government to go towards his lifetime care as he will never live independently. She has decided not to vaccinate her child for this reason and i completely understand why she would feel this way. Yes, cases like that are rare but they do happen. Not everyone who chooses not to vaccinate are crazy conspiracy theorists

How was her brother "vaccine injured", what are the details?

ceadaoin. wrote: »

He was left brain damaged and with a seizure disorder which results in multiple seizures a day. He was perfectly fine before receiving the vaccine and several doctors testified in court that the vaccine was the cause and the court ruled in their favour. This was in the US years ago where a compensation fund was set up for vaccine injuries. The details are all online and my friend actually carries them with her so she she can show people when they start having a go at her which has happened at doctor's offices etc.

My own child has been fully vaccinated but I totally understand her reasons for not doing so and I would probably do the same in her position tbh.

Was this the case? https://www.irishtimes.com/news/vaccine-case-resulted-in-pounds-2-75m-award-1.88495

"KENNETH Best, who was severely brain damaged after he was given a whooping cough vaccine as a baby, was paid Pounds 2.75 million in the High Court in May 1993"

I think anyone who refuses to vaccinate their children should face a penalty , some countrys reduce welfare payments to
people who are anti vaxx ,who stop their chidren getting vaccine

sullivlo wrote: »

Not just children who can’t be vaccinated/are immunocompromised. Think of all of the people who are on chemo who have no immune system. I can imagine little Tarquin going to visit Gramps and poor gramps ending up with pneumonia because Tarkie had the flu because mommy read a thing on Facebook.

The flu vaccine is live, so technically anybody who has had a flu shot has to stay away from gramps.

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

I think we call all agree that the pharmaceutical conglomerates have our best interests at heart

Yes in the sense that more people equals more potentially sick customers. Wiping out half the human race won't make them rich.

I think it's worth bearing in mind the generations immediately post-war were the first to have universal vaccination offered to them, usually administered (at least, in the UK) at their schools, by the school nurse.
I'm of that generation, and though I was too young to realise it at the time, it since occurred to me that my parents (and the parents of all the other kids) were of a pre-war generation and could remember kids they were at school with who'd succumbed to various childhood diseases that were now being protected against.
It's hardly surprising it was taken up in huge numbers, because the adults then knew how beneficial it would be. I cannot recall any instance of non-vaccination on principle, but even if there were, the massive uptake would have instilled the required herd immunity anyway.

As an aside, whooping cough was so rare by the 1980s, that when I was visiting a young mother in ~1983 I failed to recognise the distinctive noise a baby with whooping cough makes (I later found out that most young GPs wouldn't have recognised it either), but any granny who'd heard it would have known what it was right away. Indeed, it was an older neighbour who told the lass to get down the GP's surgery right away - she recognised it immediately.

Вашему собственному бычьему дерьму нельзя верить - V Putin

maxwell smart wrote: »

Seriously? Is that the sort of country you want to live in? Where the Government decides how you should raise your children?

All mine have been vaccinated but I certainly don't agree on forcing other people to do that. Sounds like a police state

Is it really unreasonable for the Government to require that children going to creches or schools have been vaccinated?

sullivlo wrote: »

Not just children who can’t be vaccinated/are immunocompromised. Think of all of the people who are on chemo who have no immune system. I can imagine little Tarquin going to visit Gramps and poor gramps ending up with pneumonia because Tarkie had the flu because mommy read a thing on Facebook.

No need to imagine. Here's a mum describing what her immunocompromised, cancer-stricken daughter went through, when another mom did not vaccinate her kid, and she came in contact with the measles that that kid had contracted.
The poor kid was undergoing treatment for her cancer at the time.


Summary: suffering for this kid, suffering for *all* the kids in the chemotherapy program she was in, disruptions and delays to all their treatment schedules,impacts on the treatment center in their ability to treat patients, basically misery all around.

https://thestir.cafemom.com/parenting_news/216348/how-antivaxxers-hurt-kids-with-cancer/266983/kids_receiving_outpatient_treatment_were_put_on_hold_too/2

Orion wrote: »

Correlation != Causation.

What doctors?

What do you mean what doctors? Are you going to check their credentials almost 30 years after the fact? Anyway here are some people who testified.

Moll's third witness was Dr. Mark Geier, an expert in genetics and application of the Vaccine Compensation Act, from Bethesda, Md. He opined that Andrew's screaming was evidence of encephalopathy and his jerking legs represented convulsions. He said that based on the mothers testimony, he believed that, to a reasonable degree of medical certainty, Andrew's condition was caused by the shot.

At the second hearing, Moll presented several expert witnesses including Dr. Alan Spector, a specialist in the field of physical and mental handicaps, from Chicago, and now Dr. Marcel Kinsbourne, a pediatric neurologist from Boston. Dr. Patricia Crumrine, Andrew's pediatrician, was questioned as an adverse witness

Finally, Moll arranged for three witnesses to testify by telephone. They included Carol Morris, and occupational therapist, Kathleen Turnbull, a speech and language pathologist

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

So, irrelevant on two counts.

Not really. I was pointing out why my friend has decided not to vaccinate her child and I understand her reasons. Serious adverse reactions to vaccines can occur and she has first hand experience.

Moll's third witness was Dr. Mark Geier, an expert in genetics and application of the Vaccine Compensation Act, from Bethesda, Md. He opined that Andrew's screaming was evidence of encephalopathy and his jerking legs represented convulsions. He said that based on the mothers testimony, he believed that, to a reasonable degree of medical certainty, Andrew's condition was caused by the shot.

This guy's a quack: https://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/anti-vaccine-doctor-mark-geier-not-exonerated/
He's an anti-vax professional witness. If my digging's correct, the case in question is 'Freeman vs. Sec'y Health' which anti-vax nutters have been using to 'prove' MMR causes autism, when it doesn't and the case doesn't prove it.

So, was that the case, Ceadoin?

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Mark Geier

Out of curiousity, thought I'd look up a bit about this case and upon checking the first mentioned name (Mark Geier) the below already rings alarm bells

"Mark R. Geier (born 1948 in Washington, D.C., U.S.) is a self-employed American physician and controversial professional witness who has testified in more than 90 cases regarding allegations of injury or illness caused by vaccines.[2][3] Since 2011, Geier's medical license has been suspended or revoked in every state in which he was licensed over concerns about his autism treatments and his misrepresentation of his credentials to the Maryland Board of Health, where he falsely claimed to be a board-certified geneticist and epidemiologist.[4]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Geier

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Not really. I was pointing out why my friend has decided not to vaccinate her child and I understand her reasons. Serious adverse reactions to vaccines can occur and she has first hand experience.

It is tragic what happened to your friend's brother. Appreciate the PM with the case details. The decision to vaccinate a child is in fact one the parent makes, and I think you'll find that despite what happened to your friend's brother, her decision was colored by emotion and not logic. Her kid's lives would be much more at risk due to not vaccinating.

It seems that the failure in the case mentioned is not so much the vaccine, but the re-administration of it after the child in question showed to be allergic or otherwise react to it. That was malfeasance on someone's part.

Can't read the details of the case, but I doubt there was any finding of causation ('the vaccine caused this'). And, I'd discount anything former Dr. Geier testified to.

Encephalopathy wrote: »

She's 100% right, I'm in the same boat as her and thousands more.

I've two children, two fully vaccinated to date, two of them diagnosed with autism. Honestly can't blame the vaccines on the oldest ones problems but the youngest one was severely damaged by them. As a result of that, they will be receiving no more vaccines and if we have any more children, they will not be vaccinated. If that makes me an anti vaxxer, then so be it. I've met quite a lot of parents in person who've turned their backs on vaccines for the same reasons, I've yet to meet someone who turned anti vaxx because the "I heard" reason.

I read in the US they set up a vaccine court in 1986 and to date they've paid out over 4 billion dollars compensation for vaccine injuries and deaths, how is there not a uproar from the taxpayers having to foot that bill (plus all the legal costs)?
Crazy that that the pharmaceutical companies have no liability for the products they created and produce!
4 billion dollars compensation and that's just one country, crazy for something that is safe

https://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/vaccine-court-myths-nvicp-facts/

This will help explain about the Vaccine payouts, click into his sources, seeing as how anti-vaxxers hate Skeptical Raptor :rolleyes:

There is possibly a one in a million chance of your child being injured by a vaccine. If, and that's a big IF, your child was vaccine-damaged, what do you think the odds are that more than one of your children would be injured? So no need to not vaccinated the rest and endanger everybody else, they are safe.