Ryanair Strike, Industrial relations discussion Mod note in post 1

plodder · 04-07-2018 3:37pm

CoisFharraige wrote: »

Legally, the contractors cannot participate in ballots for strike action (they can’t even strike). They aren’t excluding them on purpose. This business model is under threat in mainland Europe now anyway with some countries beginning to stop it, such as Germany. Ryanair can easily dismiss their ‘services’ (not them) if they strike, whereas for their own employees it’s much more challenging to dismiss them, from a legal perspective (even though I wouldn’t put it past them).

Employees have the right to strike, contractors don’t - that’s the main problem with this. You’ll find that the union’s objective isn’t to separate the pilots or get some of them a good deal whilst excluding others, but more so an attack on Ryanair and MOL.

Fair enough. As I said, I think all pilots should be employees, unless they are genuine contractors, which in this case, they clearly aren't.

Hopefully, the demands that the employee pilots are looking for can be made public, and it can be seen that it's not at the expense of their contractor colleagues. I'd be less inclined to support them, if the suggestion is true, that they are looking to be treated better than the contractors. Not that my support is worth a hill of beans, but anyway....

trellheim · 04-07-2018 4:25pm

Is there comparable seniority agreements the pilots want to see in any airline - would Delta's for example ? Or SIA ?

Tenger · 04-07-2018 4:27pm

rivegauche wrote: »

I am absolutely sure that empty-nest senior pilots in their 50s will be taking all the holidays they want at the times that they want while junior pilots in their 30s end up in far flung places not getting to see their children grow up or being there for them on the key days that they want to be there.

Thus was it ever so with "Seniority".

Well having previously worked in an airline with a seniority list it was accepted there. Yes, the very top 10% got their holiday requests. But it was weighted in that the bottom 20% got at least 40% of their perferences. And the amount of summer leave (ie. April-October) was limited to 3 weeks so its not as if the top guys went on a 3 mongh sabatical in the Algarve.
The holiday days were apportioned throughout the staff, so all ranks got a bite of the cherry.

And keep in mind that some pilots might decide to stay based abroad in a larger base to allow them more holiday options.
Some might go for command earlier even though it puts them at the bottom of the leave list.
Some might hang on to the righthand seat as long as possible to maintain base and/or lifestyle.

You have a very one sided view of seniority. I always found it to be clear. Of course when I was at the bottom I grumbled but I knew I was constantly moving up the list and could see noticeable improvements year by year.
Its better than where I am now, its a race to the mgmt office to stake your claim on a particular week.

rivegauche · 04-07-2018 4:43pm

Tenger wrote: »

Well having previously worked in an airline with a seniority list it was accepted there. Yes, the very top 10% got their holiday requests. But it was weighted in that the bottom 20% got at least 40% of their perferences. And the amount of summer leave (ie. April-October) was limited to 3 weeks so its not as if the top guys went on a 3 mongh sabatical in the Algarve.
The holiday days were apportioned throughout the staff, so all ranks got a bite of the cherry.

And keep in mind that some pilots might decide to stay based abroad in a larger base to allow them more holiday options.
Some might go for command earlier even though it puts them at the bottom of the leave list.
Some might hang on to the righthand seat as long as possible to maintain base and/or lifestyle.

You have a very one sided view of seniority. I always found it to be clear. Of course when I was at the bottom I grumbled but I knew I was constantly moving up the list and could see noticeable improvements year by year.
Its better than where I am now, its a race to the mgmt office to stake your claim on a particular week.

and I expect that those 126 Pilots will apportion their seniority somewhat fairly "amongst" themselves and they'll have their seniority already baked in when ever or if ever they decide to do something about the many hundreds of other Irish Ryanair Pilots who didn't have the ability to vote on this important topic which has a very real impact on their quality of life.
It is obvious that a Coterie have connived to look after themselves first and foremost and the other issues in Ryanair are of lesser importance to them even though other Pilots may be suffering from those other issues now and for the foreseeable future.

Mebuntu · 04-07-2018 5:48pm

Don't worry. Things will change back after the next downturn which can't be too far away.

At a time when other airlines were either going bust by the day or downsizing fleets and flights, Ryanair did the opposite thus maintaining thousands of airline jobs, not just pilots. Not only that, progress to the left-hand seat happened much quicker. Unfortunately, eaten bread is soon forgotten and now they turn around to bite the hand that fed them.

It is significant that the entire transport industry is controlled by militant unions who know that they can easily discommode the rest of the population anytime they wish to appease their greed.

It was inevitable that the arch-enemy IALPA, once they got their foot in the door, would look for any excuse to call a strike in FR. The idea that looking for "seniority lists" justifies inconveniencing thousands of ordinary people (the people who can afford to fly only with Ryanair) is obscene to say the least. It is nothing more than a hashtag Me Me operation.

rivegauche · 04-07-2018 5:59pm

CoisFharraige wrote: »

Cabin crew have just published their charter of demands following the summit with FORSA in Dublin today. Some very doable things that most airlines offer already. https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/0704/976236-ryanair/

Cabin crew can't afford to strike. They are on near subsistence wages. When they lose holidays and paid work due to striking pilots for such a selfish reason the Cabin Crew can afford to strike even less.

billy few mates · 04-07-2018 6:18pm

rivegauche wrote: »

CoisFharraige wrote: »

Cabin crew have just published their charter of demands following the summit with FORSA in Dublin today. Some very doable things that most airlines offer already. https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/0704/976236-ryanair/

Cabin crew can't afford to strike. They are on near subsistence wages. When they lose holidays and paid work due to striking pilots for such a selfish reason the Cabin Crew can afford to strike even less.

So you think the pilots shouldn't be allowed to stand up for themselves because the cabin crew are only on "subsistence wages"...?

john boye · 04-07-2018 6:27pm

rivegauche wrote: »

Cabin crew can't afford to strike. They are on near subsistence wages. When they lose holidays and paid work due to striking pilots for such a selfish reason the Cabin Crew can afford to strike even less.

Don't you think they should be on slightly better wages then?

billy few mates · 04-07-2018 6:33pm

Good luck to them I say, everybody is entitled to make a stand and fight for what they believe they're worth. In this industry you really only get two opportunities to do this, peak summer or Christmas holidays. The last time they tried this was at Christmas and although the strike was averted on that occasion I always felt there was still some unfinished business, and now it's come back around again.
I also believe seniority lists are nothing to be feared, properly run they can work to the benefit of everyone. It encourages and promotes loyalty (something Ryanair could probably do with), every one starts at the bottom but everyone eventually makes it to the top. They're probably more transparent than any alternative system, you're given a number the day you come in, every one that comes in after you has a higher number so you can see at a glance that everything is above board. Many many airlines already use this system and it doesn't cost the company a penny to administer, and saves a hell of a lot of arguments when it comes to rationing the benefits that come with the system. I also don't buy the fear of the top tier hogging all the leave, they still only have the same amount of leave and I can't see how the annual leave of the most senior captain would interfere with the annual leave of the most junior first officer. Even if it did, so what? Why shouldn't the longest serving reap the benefits of their loyalty?

Hellrazer · 04-07-2018 6:59pm

Mebuntu wrote: »

.

It is significant that the entire transport industry is controlled by militant unions who know that they can easily discommode the rest of the population anytime they wish to appease their greed.

It was inevitable that the arch-enemy IALPA, once they got their foot in the door, would look for any excuse to call a strike in FR. The idea that looking for "seniority lists" justifies inconveniencing thousands of ordinary people (the people who can afford to fly only with Ryanair) is obscene to say the least. It is nothing more than a hashtag Me Me operation.

No one group of employees should be allowed to hold a country to ransom. Actually never mind a country--the whole continent could be brought to a standstill if this escalates.

I am a huge trade union supporter but this union is holding a gun to the heads of innocent families that are about to take their hard earned annual holidays that they have probably been saving for months to pay for.

Everyone knew this was coming once the unions got the foot in the door and its only going to get worse if Ryanair capitulate to their demands now. The letter to Forsa is on the Ryanair website and it really makes Forsa look like the bad guys when you read it.

CoisFharraige · 04-07-2018 7:14pm

Hellrazer wrote: »

Mebuntu wrote: »

.

It is significant that the entire transport industry is controlled by militant unions who know that they can easily discommode the rest of the population anytime they wish to appease their greed.

It was inevitable that the arch-enemy IALPA, once they got their foot in the door, would look for any excuse to call a strike in FR. The idea that looking for "seniority lists" justifies inconveniencing thousands of ordinary people (the people who can afford to fly only with Ryanair) is obscene to say the least. It is nothing more than a hashtag Me Me operation.

No one group of employees should be allowed to hold a country to ransom. Actually never mind a country--the whole continent could be brought to a standstill if this escalates.

I am a huge trade union supporter but this union is holding a gun to the heads of innocent families that are about to take their hard earned annual holidays that they have probably been saving for months to pay for.

Everyone knew this was coming once the unions got the foot in the door and its only going to get worse if Ryanair capitulate to their demands now. The letter to Forsa is on the Ryanair website and it really makes Forsa look like the bad guys when you read it.

I agree that this will have terrible repurcssions for families and people across the continent, just read the comments on facebook - funerals, once-in-a-lifetime holidays for disadvantaged families etc - it’s heartbreaking.

However, the crew have endured this abuse (yes, you can call it that) from management for years. From the fuel league tables to the base transfers, and the automatic fail of a command upgrade even before taking the exam just because a bad word was put in by management to the examiner about you (has happened many times)! It’s disgraceful carry on that not many companies practise (thankfully). I fully support the strike. They backed down at Christmas and gave Ryanair the benefit of the doubt, but Ryanair bluffed and has been painfully slow at negotiating under anything other than their own terms since. It has to happen at some time, and everyone acts in their own interest in this world. They know it’s the only time it’ll really hit-home when they see a dip in bookings and profits at HQ.

IngazZagni · 04-07-2018 7:30pm

Mebuntu wrote: »

It was inevitable that the arch-enemy IALPA, once they got their foot in the door, would look for any excuse to call a strike in FR. The idea that looking for "seniority lists" justifies inconveniencing thousands of ordinary people (the people who can afford to fly only with Ryanair) is obscene to say the least. It is nothing more than a hashtag Me Me operation.

Think about what you said for a second. This strike is indeed over something so simple. Other airline crew take this for granted. This is something that won't cost Ryanair a single cent and yet they are not willing to accept it? That just shows where management's priorities lie.

Why can't Ryanair accept the requests for something so simple? Their attempts to "talk" are laughable. They either accept the proposals or not. It's all in Ryanairs management's hands to resolve.

Edit: As for Ialpa. Remember it was Ryanairs decision to recognise them. They passed on the opportunity to recognise that internal RPG thing that was mentioned earlier.

Hellrazer · 04-07-2018 7:36pm

CoisFharraige wrote: »

However, the crew have endured this abuse (yes, you can call it that) from management for years. From the fuel league tables to the base transfers, and the automatic fail of a command upgrade even before taking the exam just because a bad word was put in by management to the examiner about you (has happened many times)!

These people applied for jobs in Ryanair knowing what they were like as an employer. Its the same as my industry. People know who are the good and bad employers out there. They willingly went to work for Ryanair knowing what they were like so its on their own heads.

It’s disgraceful carry on that not many companies practise (thankfully).

Agreed if it is as you say it is.

I fully support the strike.

I don't and even within the industry Im in Ive seen unions destroy companies. For example back in 2002 I was working in a heavily unionised place. It was around 28 degrees centigrade in July and someone for some reason or another found the heating not working -- not the aircon the actual heating for the building. The place went on strike in 28 degrees because the heating wasn't working. That single incident changed my views of certain unions.

While Im still a union supporter I look very warily on them when they are unwilling to engage before issuing strike notice.

They backed down at Christmas and gave Ryanair the benefit of the doubt, but Ryanair bluffed and has been painfully slow at negotiating under anything other than their own terms since.

They didn't back down--it wasn't some look at us being the good guys and allowing people to take their flights at Christmas to their loved ones. They got what they wanted from Ryanair which was union recognition-that's what the threat of strike was about back then.

The dogs in the street knew that it was only a matter of time before the unions started pushing for some unreasonable demands and /or complete changes to the way the company was run for years before and then threatening strike action and as predicted its now happened.

Hellrazer · 04-07-2018 7:46pm

IngazZagni wrote: »

Why can't Ryanair accept the requests for something so simple? Their attempts to "talk" are laughable. They either accept the proposals or not. It's all in Ryanairs management's hands to resolve.

The Unions must engage aswell.

Edit: As for Ialpa. Remember it was Ryanairs decision to recognise them.

A decision that was forced on them with the threat of strike action over a Christmas period. They had no choice really.

They passed on the opportunity to recognise that internal RPG thing that was mentioned earlier.

I don't think we should even go there.
Were they not called a joke by Ryanair if I remember right and Im not sure I disagree with him since its council was made up of pilots who weren't even Ryanair pilots or didn't work for Ryanair.

IngazZagni · 04-07-2018 7:54pm

Hellrazer wrote: »

These people applied for jobs in Ryanair knowing what they were like as an employer. Its the same as my industry. People know who are the good and bad employers out there. They willingly went to work for Ryanair knowing what they were like so its on their own heads.

They didn't back down--it wasn't some look at us being the good guys and allowing people to take their flights at Christmas to their loved ones. They got what they wanted from Ryanair which was union recognition-that's what the threat of strike was about back then.

On the first point. Why can't people strive to improve the terms and conditions of the employer they are currently with? For many, there wouldn't be too many options of moving company if they wanted to continue living in the same place. Also the terms and conditions at Ryanair have a direct influence on terms and conditions at other airlines. When other companies go into negotiations with their staff they would say "We can't afford to pay you this or give you that because Ryanair only gives their staff x amount".

As for your second point. What recognition? Ryanair only ever SAID they would recognise IALPA but there is still no recognition agreement in place. Nothing is signed. That info comes straight from the corporate website.

CoisFharraige · 04-07-2018 8:02pm

QUOTE:
These people applied for jobs in Ryanair knowing what they were like as an employer. Its the same as my industry. People know who are the good and bad employers out there. They willingly went to work for Ryanair knowing what they were like so its on their own heads.

I don't and even within the industry Im in Ive seen unions destroy companies. For example back in 2002 I was working in a heavily unionised place. It was around 28 degrees centigrade in July and someone for some reason or another found the heating not working -- not the aircon the actual heating for the building. The place went on strike in 28 degrees because the heating wasn't working. That single incident changed my views of certain unions.

While Im still a union supporter I look very warily on them when they are unwilling to engage before issuing strike notice.

END QUOTE (silly phone)

I agree with you completely on the whole union thing - some of them are horribly old-school and just so up their own arses to realise that places need to be made somewhat efficient. My parents had a company which dealt with unions - they HATED them. They were a good employer but unions don’t care - they have an agenda to push.

Also, with regards to the choosing to work for Ryanair, it really isn’t in this industry. Let me give an explanation: a new 200-hour cadet wouldn’t (in the past more so) be hired by anybody. Nobody wanted them. Ryanair were the only company taking them, and this gave room for them to lower conditions, just supply and demand. Meanwhile, cadets have almost always got massive loans (100€K+) and are in desperate need of a job, or they’ll lose their collateral (parents’ house or whatever for some). In this case, do they have a choice? I mean yes, like they could remain jobless of course, but from a realistic perspective they actually don’t have a choice.

Did they know what they were getting into? Probably? I know I did. Despite that, it doesn’t have to be that way, some things they could change wouldn’t cost a penny - they’d actually make more indirect revenue in increased morale etc.

There’s no winning-side really to this argument, as everyone has a bit of blood on their hands!

Hellrazer · 04-07-2018 8:26pm

IngazZagni wrote: »

On the first point. Why can't people strive to improve the terms and conditions of the employer they are currently with? For many, there wouldn't be too many options of moving company if they wanted to continue living in the same place. Also the terms and conditions at Ryanair have a direct influence on terms and conditions at other airlines. When other companies go into negotiations with their staff they would say "We can't afford to pay you this or give you that because Ryanair only gives their staff x amount".

Ive no issues with any employee trying to better their terms and conditions. What I do have issue with is jumping straight to strike notice without any engagement with an employer.

As for your second point. What recognition? Ryanair only ever SAID they would recognise IALPA but there is still no recognition agreement in place. Nothing is signed. That info comes straight from the corporate website.

The recognition agreement might not be signed but its there. Forsa want to include non Ryanair pilots in that agreement and that's what stalled the talks.

However if there is no formal recognition in place then surely this strike is illegal as Ryanair would have to deal individually with each pilot and not their union?? I could be wrong here but if I remember right an unrecognised union cant issue strike notice to an employer for a group of employees ie. they have to do it individually??

So would Ryanair be within their rights to discipline any pilot that doesn't show up for work on that day or hasn't individually issued strike notice??

Bob24 · 04-07-2018 8:33pm

Hellrazer wrote: »

Ive no issues with any employee trying to better their terms and conditions. What I do have issue with is jumping straight to strike notice without any engagement with an employer.

I strongly disagree with this assessment. We all know Ryanair's staff has been particularly unhappy for years about their work conditions and their employer hasn't been listening to their feedback in the slightest. This includes a previous strike which was called-off in December and (unsuccessful) attempts for talks since then.

One might not support strikes, but saying that this one comes out of nowhere is absolutly not correct IMO - it's being building-up for years. Personally and given the history of the company I think it is rather insulting to Ryanair pilots to say they are "jumping straight to strike notice without any engagement with [their] employer", and I am pretty sure a majority of them would rather not strike if they thought there was another way to get things moving.

Hellrazer · 04-07-2018 8:43pm

Bob24 wrote: »

I strongly disagree with this assessment. We all know Ryanair's staff has been particularly unhappy for years about their work conditions and their employer hasn't been listening to their feedback in the slightest.

That's fair enough if employees aren't happy.

This includes a previous strike which was called-off in December and (unsuccessful) attempts for talks since then.

The previous strike as Ive already said was based on the employees wanting union recognition which they got. Ryanair are saying they have tried to get all partries around a table multiple times but Forsa are unwilling to go to Airside to do so.

One might not support strikes, but saying that this one comes out of nowhere is absolutly not correct IMO - it's being building-up for years.

Maybe that's the case but the employees who are now represented by unions have to engage with Ryanair through the unions and up till now (according to Ryanair) have not done so after 18 attempts. The letter today makes Forsa look like the bad guys here despite what they are saying.

It actually looks like Forsa want this strike to go ahead no matter what without trying to remedy the situation by sitting down with Ryanair.

billy few mates · 04-07-2018 8:56pm

Everyone knew this was coming once the unions got the foot in the door and its only going to get worse if Ryanair capitulate to their demands now.

That's your 'hot take' on the situation is it....?
Ryanair invited in some sort of a Trojan horse when they agreed to recognise trade unions and the sole aim of this union is to destroy the company of the members that it represents...?
And then what...?

Hellrazer · 04-07-2018 11:44pm

billy few mates wrote: »

That's your 'hot take' on the situation is it....?

If that's the way you want to phrase it then yeah Ill play ball.

Ryanair invited in some sort of a Trojan horse when they agreed to recognise trade unions and the sole aim of this union is to destroy the company of the members that it represents...?

No what I said was "Ive seen unions destroy companies"
That's personal experience by the way.

And yes Ive seen unions ruin companies where the people they are trying to represent have actually come off worse once a union gets it foot in the door.
Employees can be better off by local bargaining rather than collective bargaining.

However in saying that where a union is willing to negotiate with an employer both parties usually come out on top.

The employer doesn't feel like they've given in and the union gets some consessions for their members.

In this case Forsa have not attended any meetings for whatever reasons and Ryanair have said that they have made 18 attempts to sit down and sort things out.

If what Ryanair are saying is true then what Im proposing is correct ie Forsa want this strike to go ahead regardless of the implications to their members(who will have zero wages while the strike goes on) and the general public who will loose money on holidays booked etc.

And then what...?

Depends on the outcome of talks if any take place.
If Ryanair give in to these demands without any consessions then next year we`ll have more demands and so on as the unions will realise that Ryanair are focussed on company profits and will give in.

If Ryanair don't give in then we are in for a serious round of strike action throughout the summer months.

Whatever your opinion on this both sides need to get together as soon as possible and fix this before next week. Maybe some sort of mediation by the WRC would be preferable to both sides.

View Profile · 05-07-2018 7:37am

Hellrazer wrote:

No what I said was "Ive seen unions destroy companies" That's personal experience by the way.

Ryanair has been union free for it's entire existence.
This allowed them to abuse, intimidate, and control their workforce with impunity.

Thankfully, pilots and cabin crew are finally in a position where they can better their conditions.
Ryanair refused to negotiate responsibly and so left with no alternative a strike was called. The nature of a strike is customers are affected. That's the downside of striking. Would you rather the staff endure another 30 years of abuse so your travel plans aren't disrupted??

Now who's being selfish.

Tenger · 05-07-2018 9:57am

rivegauche wrote: »

and I expect that those 126 Pilots will apportion their seniority somewhat fairly "amongst" themselves and they'll have their seniority already baked in when ever or if ever they decide to do something about the many hundreds of other Irish Ryanair Pilots who didn't have the ability to vote on this important topic which has a very real impact on their quality of life......................

How many FR pilots are there in Ireland? There are approx 35 Irish based aircraft. Of the 126, we are told that most are Captains. So let’s guess that 100 are captains, thus there must be approx 100 other 1st officers, of which 26 are direct employees.
Do you assume that these ppl who share a small space for 7-10 hours a day don’t talk to each other about ongoing employment issues?
It’s not like this vote deliberately excluded the company contractors, it’s that there is not official method to take votes from contractors.

markpb · 05-07-2018 9:58am

View Profile wrote: »

Would you rather the staff endure another 30 years of abuse so your travel plans aren't disrupted??

Anyone who stays in the same abusive job for 30 years when they have options is crazy. Whatever about cabin crew (and there are few old cabin crew in Ryanair), pilots can leave and get alternative jobs with relative ease.

Wanderer78 · 05-07-2018 10:10am

markpb wrote:

Anyone who stays in the same abusive job for 30 years when they have options is crazy. Whatever about cabin crew (and there are few old cabin crew in Ryanair), pilots can leave and get alternative jobs with relative ease.

Again, life is not black or white, as some people believe it to be, leaving employment is not as easy as it seems, particularly when life responsibilities such as family commitments are in place. We, the general public, should not be encouraging employers to treat their staff as such.

05-07-2018 10:21am

O'Leary pushed the staff hard and loudly p*ssed all over the union heads at every opportunity for years.

This is the unions chance to teach him a good lesson.

Iv no sympathy for either side, the unions will hold the place to ransom too if allowed.

View Profile · 05-07-2018 11:22am

markpb wrote:

Anyone who stays in the same abusive job for 30 years when they have options is crazy. Whatever about cabin crew (and there are few old cabin crew in Ryanair), pilots can leave and get alternative jobs with relative ease.

Good luck finding another Captains job in Dublin!
Yeah you can move overseas (again) and see your kids grow up via Skype or pull them away from their school friends and family.
So it's not as easy as you say.

Bob24 · 05-07-2018 12:22pm

markpb wrote: »

Anyone who stays in the same abusive job for 30 years when they have options is crazy. Whatever about cabin crew (and there are few old cabin crew in Ryanair), pilots can leave and get alternative jobs with relative ease.

If every time there are things to address in terms of work conditions and employee/employer relations the answer was “if you don’t like it you can leave”, nothing would ever change and issues would never get addressed.

Your mistake is that you are looking at employees individually rather than as a group which evolves over time but can retain consistant goals/frustrations even though it is not formed of the exact same individuals.

So yes individually people can move on (and they do), but it doesn’t mean that as a group employees can’t seek changes to their work conditions.

And the employer can rightly or wrongly refuse to entertain their employees’ requests, but then it shouldn’t come as a surprise that things gradually escalate (and again, the individuals who are planning to strike this summer are not necessarily the same who would have complained about things to management 5 years ago - many of them would have moved on - but for employees as a group the same request formulated 5 years ago can have been retained overtime and be escalating to a stike today given the lack of previous progress).

CoisFharraige · 05-07-2018 1:11pm

markpb wrote: »

View Profile wrote: »

Would you rather the staff endure another 30 years of abuse so your travel plans aren't disrupted??

Anyone who stays in the same abusive job for 30 years when they have options is crazy. Whatever about cabin crew (and there are few old cabin crew in Ryanair), pilots can leave and get alternative jobs with relative ease.

I don’t know of anybody serving 30 years in Ryanair as a captain.

I can’t not argue against your statement. You have no choice as a low-hour cadet but to join Ryanair (more so in the past). You’ll have a huge loan and a family or bank to pay back. Subsequent years need to be passed at the company whilst you build enough hours to unfreeze your ATPL and get out, meanwhile you haven’t got a choice but to endure the conditions. Changing jobs in this industry, especially as a pilot, is definitely not easy. You mightn’t even get hired in the first place by another company - let alone be able to find one hiring low-hour FOs.

rivegauche · 05-07-2018 9:32pm

Based on how belligerent the Pilots union are I could see Ryanair not converting any more contractors to employees, waiting for the next downturn, let the number of Ryanair employed pilots reduce through natural wastage and hire qualified crew who don't need (much) in company training.

For the cabin crew who are going on strike for genuine reasons I can see Ryanair being somewhat open but if it costs them more than the cost of using cabin crew through competing contracting companies who are more at arms length than the current arrangement then contracting is the way to go.

Consistently striking crew are an existential problem for a company and I can see them embracing a full proper arms length contracting model which is resilient to challenge in the Courts around Europe than converting everyone to Ryanair employee numbers because then the Unions can take hold.

Contracting isn't illegal. The way Ryanair contract at the moment might be considered illegal by some Judges.

If I were Management I'd be considering the consequences of capitulating. It is too late for the likes of Lufthansa now. VC are the tail wagging that dog. It isn't too late for Ryanair.

billy few mates · 05-07-2018 9:46pm

rivegauche wrote: »

Based on how belligerent the Pilots union are I could see Ryanair not converting any more contractors to employees, waiting for the next downturn, let the number of Ryanair employed pilots reduce through natural wastage and hire qualified crew who don't need (much) in company training.

For the cabin crew who are going on strike for genuine reasons I can see Ryanair being somewhat open but if it costs them more than the cost of using cabin crew through competing contracting companies who are more at arms length than the current arrangement then contracting is the way to go.

Consistently striking crew are an existential problem for a company and I can see them embracing a full proper arms length contracting model which is resilient to challenge in the Courts around Europe than converting everyone to Ryanair employee numbers because then the Unions can take hold.

Contracting isn't illegal. The way Ryanair contract at the moment might be considered illegal by some Judges.

If I were Management I'd be considering the consequences of capitulating. It is too late for the likes of Lufthansa now. VC are the tail wagging that dog. It isn't too late for Ryanair.

<SNIP> Personal comments are NOT allowed

Those days are long gone mate, nobody wants to put up with crap conditions for job security, nobody with any ambition who knows the value of their own worth anyway. Life is full of opportunities and options, as one door closes another one opens. Loyalty is a two way street, companies need to create an environment where people want to work for them because they like it, not because they think it's the best of a bad lot.

trellheim · 06-07-2018 10:47am

Are FR still refusing to meet at a neutral venue ? In industrial relation terms, this is called thumbing a nose to the process. I had other words but this is a family forum.

Normally I'm not a great fan of certain unions, but this one I think they need to sort out.

rivegauche · 06-07-2018 11:34am

billy few mates wrote: »

Those days are long gone mate, nobody wants to put up with crap conditions for job security, nobody with any ambition who knows the value of their own worth anyway. Life is full of opportunities and options, as one door closes another one opens. Loyalty is a two way street, companies need to create an environment where people want to work for them because they like it, not because they think it's the best of a bad lot.

Like other professionals, Pilots are going to see that the world of work is changing and while they may work a full career in their chosen career they will probably not be employed by the company whose planes they fly.

A key decision will be whether a Pilot is considered "Strategic", "Core" or "Non-Core" to an organisation's success. A qualified pilot is the same as another qualified pilot to the Company. They can competently acquit the task they have been set but their influence on the success of the Company doesn't extend beyond the flights they operate for the Company.

A pilot is going to be an obvious target for outsourcing and they won't be the first professionals who though essential to service delivery are outsourced.

The pilot won't be employed by the Company in future and will instead be employed by a Vendor\Service provider. If the pilots who are now employed by a third party organise and strike then the Vendor\Service provider will be unable to service their contract and the Company goes to another service provider who will provide qualified pilots.

I don't see how the Pilots can in the long term tease out a resolution so that they are employed by the Airline they want, working at the airport they want to work, at the Salary they want and with the conditions they expect going forward once Ryanair ensure they contract out their work in compliance with local legislation. It may have an impact on Ryanair's cost base but they won't end up with staff costs that are higher than their competitors and they will be strike-proof. Ryanair has the resources and time to arrange their affairs so that they become strike-proof.

Bob24 · 06-07-2018 11:46am

trellheim wrote: »

Are FR still refusing to meet at a neutral venue ?

Yes they are, and to my knowledge they haven’t explained why (doesn’t seem to be the cost as the union has apparently offered to pay for the venue).

plodder · 06-07-2018 12:18pm

rivegauche wrote: »

Like other professionals, Pilots are going to see that the world of work is changing and while they may work a full career in their chosen career they will probably not be employed by the company whose planes they fly.

A key decision will be whether a Pilot is considered "Strategic", "Core" or "Non-Core" to an organisation's success. A qualified pilot is the same as another qualified pilot to the Company. They can competently acquit the task they have been set but their influence on the success of the Company doesn't extend beyond the flights they operate for the Company.

A pilot is going to be an obvious target for outsourcing and they won't be the first professionals who though essential to service delivery are outsourced.

The pilot won't be employed by the Company in future and will instead be employed by a Vendor\Service provider. If the pilots who are now employed by a third party organise and strike then the Vendor\Service provider will be unable to service their contract and the Company goes to another service provider who will provide qualified pilots.

I don't see how the Pilots can in the long term tease out a resolution so that they are employed by the Airline they want, working at the airport they want to work, at the Salary they want and with the conditions they expect going forward once Ryanair ensure they contract out their work in compliance with local legislation. It may have an impact on Ryanair's cost base but they won't end up with staff costs that are higher than their competitors and they will be strike-proof. Ryanair has the resources and time to arrange their affairs so that they become strike-proof.

I don't see why it has to work out that way. In this country we tend to be quite fatalistic about things like this, and you see it all the time on this website, with people just accepting whatever Ryanair and other big companies throw at them. The answer is always just "fly with someone else" or "get a job with someone else". But we live in a democracy and we don't actually have to let companies do this. Granted there are legitimate reasons for using contractors, but I don't see why the entire cohort of pilots of an airline needs to be employed at arms length. The reason why is clearly to avoid the requirements and costs associated with employment rights. And gven the whole trans national aspect to aviation, it's something I can see the EU getting more actively involved in.

Hellrazer · 06-07-2018 5:27pm

Bob24 wrote: »

Yes they are, and to my knowledge they haven’t explained why (doesn’t seem to be the cost as the union has apparently offered to pay for the venue).

The venue doesn't matter as Forsa have already attended meetings there and are now refusing to visit Airside for talks. They were only there last week for talks about cabin crew terms and conditions.

Im still of the opinion that Forsa want this strike to go ahead regardless of what Ryanair do.

Bob24 · 06-07-2018 6:38pm

Hellrazer wrote: »

The venue doesn't matter as Forsa have already attended meetings there and are now refusing to visit Airside for talks. They were only there last week for talks about cabin crew terms and conditions.

Im still of the opinion that Forsa want this strike to go ahead regardless of what Ryanair do.

If the venue doesn’t matter and is just an excuse to strike, why is Ryanair not announcing that they are ready to meet at a third party location and taking away that excuse from the union?

Looks like to me it does matter to both parties.

Hellrazer · 06-07-2018 6:47pm

Bob24 wrote: »

If the venue doesn’t matter and is just an excuse to strike, why is Ryanair not announcing that they are ready to meet at a third party location and taking away that excuse from the union?

Looks like to me it does matter to both parties.

Well why wont Forsa go to Airside as they've been there before in order to take that excuse away from Ryanair?

Bob24 · 06-07-2018 6:53pm

Hellrazer wrote: »

Well why wont Forsa go to Airside as they've been there before in order to take that excuse away from Ryanair?

Because the venue matters to them (as it does to Ryanair). That’s what I was saying, it looks like it matters to both parties - if no one is budging you can’t call it an excuse used by one of the 2 parties as they are both equally contributing to the deadlock.

IngazZagni · 06-07-2018 7:28pm

It doesn't matter where both parties have met in the past. This is a separate issue. If Ryanair can't even agree to negotiate at a neutral venue then what sort of attitude would their management have at the actual negotiations?

Trying to dictate the venue is just them trying to control the situation and show who's in charge.

devnull · 06-07-2018 8:19pm

I do not know of any employer that would entertain the request of staff to meet at external premises to discuss issues which certainly would include commercially sensitive information that would normally be kept internally.

IngazZagni wrote: »

Trying to dictate the venue is just them trying to control the situation and show who's in charge.

In this situation you really need to read between the lines as both parties are clearly spinning for their own agendas at the moment and rather than this being about venues themselves, it may well be about who controls access to the venues. Both sides want control from what I can see.

I assume that the reason the union do not want to meet Ryanair at HQ is that Ryanair would then be able to refuse anyone entry that they did not want to be there. On the other hand, if the union are booking the room, they would retain that control which is why they are offering to pay for it.

Both sides have their own agenda here and it's difficult to see with their entrenched positions how they are going to come to some agreement, I assume IALPA may want their non Ryanair staff there and I could see why they would want to do that, but as someone who has worked in HR, there's no way I'd want that to happen.

L1011 · 06-07-2018 8:22pm

It is not normal, at all, for these kind of meetings to occur on employer premises.

You have been warned before about making assumptions and implications about IALPA devnull, I hope we don't need to do it again...

Bob24 · 06-07-2018 9:18pm

devnull wrote: »

I do not know of any employer that would entertain the request of staff to meet at external premises to discuss issues which certainly would include commercially sensitive information that would normally be kept internally.

I’ve seen sensitive information discussed off premise (usually conference rooms in hotels) at all the companies I worked at. Sometimes on purpose to keep a confidential workgroup off the radar. It’s not like the CIA is going to bug the room to be first to know about Ryanair’s new employment policies ...

06-07-2018 9:33pm

markpb wrote: »

Anyone who stays in the same abusive job for 30 years when they have options is crazy. Whatever about cabin crew (and there are few old cabin crew in Ryanair), pilots can leave and get alternative jobs with relative ease.

Tell that to the Monarch pilots some of whom it took 6 months to get new jobs and this in a boom period for aviation.

Hellrazer · 06-07-2018 11:39pm

IngazZagni wrote: »

It doesn't matter where both parties have met in the past. This is a separate issue.

Same union. Similar issue. They already met Ryanair management there.

If Ryanair can't even agree to negotiate at a neutral venue then what sort of attitude would their management have at the actual negotiations?

And if Forsa cant agree to meet at a venue they have already had discussions at then what does it say about their attitude at the actual negotiations??

Trying to dictate the venue is just them trying to control the situation and show who's in charge.

Both of them are trying to control the situation.

Your argument works both ways and can be used to twist any argument depending on which side you support.

Bob24 · 06-07-2018 11:46pm

Just saw this: https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/ryanair-launches-stinging-attack-on-pilots-union-claiming-it-has-no-mandate-to-disrupt-flights-37088392.html

“Ryanair’s Irish passengers should not be disrupted next Thursday when this strike has the support of just 94 of Ryanair’s over 350 Irish pilots,” it said in a statement.

“This is a quorum of just 27pc, and significantly less than one third of Ryanair’s Irish pilots.”

I won’t spend much time on the fact that they are voluntarily mixing-up FTEs and contractors to claim “this is a quarum of just 27pc” (if you look at the facts, Ryanair FTEs who are the only pilots in a position to strike almost all voted in favour). I would be interested in knowing whether Ryanair would be as comfortable to say they have 350 Irish pilots in front of a court and discussing the legality of their legal framework for employing contractors.

What’s more important is the type of employer-employee relashionship they are creating by saying these things and claiming that when virtually all pilots employed by Ryanair in Ireland express the same vote, this doesn’t consititute any legitimate mandate for action.

Forget the union for a second, this type of manipulative and provocative statement and behaviour can only create very bad relashionships between staff and management in any company. Pilots know this is BS and will simply become even more angry at their employer. I understand Ryanair’s communication strategy is to try to publicly appear as the victim of a conspiracy with Aer Lingus as a mastermind, but what I find crazy is that apparently they don’t care about the consequence on their relashionship with their employees.

Hellrazer · 06-07-2018 11:54pm

L1011 wrote: »

It is not normal, at all, for these kind of meetings to occur on employer premises.

Ive seen and been part of negotiations and seen them take place in both neutral places and at employers premises.

At the minute while the actual venue doesn't really matter(my earlier posts are purely to point out the fact that both sides`arguments can be interchanged depending what side you support) its all about controlling the negotiations.

Its a typical employer vs union tactic ie try to control every single aspect of the negotiations. And this tip-toeing around will continue until either a third party decides to facilitate talks or one of the parties gives in and relinquishes some of their control.

At the end of the day they both need to sit down at a table and hammer this out. Im surprised the WRC hasn't offered to facilitate these talks yet--I was hoping for something like that to happen today or Monday at the latest.

Brendan Bendar · 07-07-2018 7:43am

This dispute has been building for ages.

Would be surprised if it didn't go ahead.

FR has had a 'clean canvas' up to now, they can't offer the fares they offer by paying everyone top dollar and top conditions.

This is a new area for them, staff tied up for days and days dealing with disputes.

Fleet re shuffles,re routings, the customer fallout, anger at airports,claims etc etc.

Lot of people who could 'get things done' in that company quickly and easily will soon find out a huge change and have to adapt to new scenario.

rivegauche · 07-07-2018 11:50pm

The Sunday Business Post reports that Ryanair are going to face down the Union.

http://cf.broadsheet.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Dhgx_ZrW4AALr6W.jpg

rivegauche · 07-07-2018 11:58pm

If strike goes ahead then it will be clear who outside the pilots' union is willing to cross a picket line.
Passengers with travel plans will be on any planes that are running. Union can't look to them for support. Maybe some cabin crew will come out in support but not enough of them to do damage. Who else in the Airports will support them...time will tell.

Ryanair Strike, Industrial relations discussion Mod note in post 1

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