EU draft directive to be presented on wed 19th Dec

kiffy · 19-12-2012 12:28pm

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Don't doubt you, but would like to see a link?

Sorry I was only taking the pi$$ seen nothing yet, just fancied a bit of black humour,"Idle hands Faulty"
Probably been taken of a few pll's Xmas card list now

Cavehill Red · 19-12-2012 12:31pm

kiffy wrote: »

Sorry I was only taking the pi$$ seen nothing yet, just fancied a bit of black humour,"Idle hands Faulty"
Probably been taken of a few pll's Xmas card list now

I hope Santa brings you 0mg juice and a lump of coal for that!

kiffy · 19-12-2012 12:35pm

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I hope Santa brings you 0mg juice and a lump of coal for that!

I could use the coal, he can stick his 0mg up his sack

But a shrewd move by BAT though looking to make an ecig a NRT

Vaperus · 19-12-2012 12:37pm

I Volunteer to intercept all of Kiffy's mail
To make sure no supplies get through :-)

kiffy · 19-12-2012 12:41pm

Vaperus wrote: »

I Volunteer to intercept all of Kiffy's mail
To make sure no supplies get through :-)

I suppose I deserved that

No way yur getting yur hands on my eVic though

Lets all hope I was way off the mark

Vaperus · 19-12-2012 12:44pm

Lets hope so

eeloe · 19-12-2012 1:11pm

I'm really starting to brick it about a blanket ban, I don't think we know the power of Big Tobacco and the pharma companies.

If the want e-cigs banned due to lost revenue, I'm starting to worry that it'll happen.

kiffy · 19-12-2012 1:20pm

eeloe wrote: »

I'm really starting to brick it about a blanket ban, I don't think we know the power of Big Tobacco and the pharma companies.

If the want e-cigs banned due to lost revenue, I'm starting to worry that it'll happen.

Especially as today of all days BAT announce the takeover of Intellicig and will be seeking a market authorisation as a smoking cessation device for the Nicadex product.
They will have both ends of the market covered, those who still smoke and still getting their money when they try and quit :mad:
Don't think the Pharma's saw that coming

http://news.sky.com/story/1027436/british-american-tobacco-in-e-cigarettes-deal

kiffy · 19-12-2012 1:32pm

Just found this on UKV

"Re: press release found by aj

So it will be legislated for in 2014 and come into effect in 2015/2016.
And even then, the UK doesn't have to adopt it fully. Chances are the MHRA will take a lead from it to be ahead of the game.
Main concern:
"certain level of nicotine"

We hope this isnt going to be 0.4%.
But then again, we can stock up for 2-3 years."

Can't find the link their talking about though.

(and no it's not another wind up

)

Found it.

IP/12/1391
EUROPEAN COMMISSION
PRESS RELEASE
Brussels, 19 December 2012
Tobacco products: towards bigger health warnings and
ban of strong flavourings
Today, after years in the making, the European Commission has adopted its proposal to
revise the Tobacco Products Directive. The proposed legislation consists of new and
strengthened rules on how tobacco products can be manufactured, presented, and sold.
More specifically, it bans the use of cigarettes, roll-your-own tobacco (RYO) and smokeless
tobacco products with characterising flavours and makes the use of large pictorial health
warnings mandatory on cigarettes and RYO. It regulates cross border internet sale and
foresees technical features to combat illicit trade. Moreover, measures are proposed for
products that were not specifically regulated so far such as e-cigarettes and herbal
products for smoking. Chewing and nasal tobacco will be subject to specific labelling and
ingredient regulations. The existing ban for oral tobacco (snus) shall be maintained.
On the occasion of the proposal's adoption, Commissioner in charge of Health & Consumer
Policy, Tonio Borg said: "We delivered! The European Commission had promised a
proposal on tobacco products by the end of 2012, and that's what I'm presenting today to
Health ministers and the European Parliament. The figures speak for themselves : tobacco
kills half of its users and is highly addictive. With 70% of the smokers starting before the
age of 18, the ambition of today's proposal is to make tobacco products and smoking less
attractive and thus discourage tobacco initiation among young people". He added that
"Consumers must not be cheated: tobacco products should look and taste like tobacco
products and this proposal ensures that attractive packaging and flavourings are not used
as a marketing strategy."
Why a revision of EU law?
The current Tobacco Products Directive (2001/37/EC) dates from 2001. Since then,
significant scientific, market and international developments have taken place. For
example, new evidence on flavourings used in tobacco products and effectiveness of
health warnings has become available. Novel products such as electronic cigarettes have
entered the market and recent marketing strategies involve the use of attractive
packaging and flavours. At international level, the EU and all of its Member States have
ratified the WHO Framework Convention on Tobacco Control (FCTC) which entered into
force in February 2005. As a consequence, some of the current provisions of the
Directive have become outdated. Member States have also taken different regulatory
approaches resulting in a divergence between Member States' laws on the
manufacture, presentation and sale of tobacco products.
The new proposal is responding to these developments and to requests from the
European Parliament and the Council of Ministers as well as the Commission's own
report on the Application of the Tobacco Products Directive of 2007 and 2009, which
identified potential areas for improvement.

2
Main elements of the proposal:
The proposal foresees major revisions of the current Directive. It addresses in particular
the following areas:
• Labelling and Packaging: All cigarette and Roll Your Own packages must contain
a combined picture and text health warning covering 75% of the front and the
back of the package and must carry no promotional elements. The current
information on tar, nicotine and carbon monoxide, which is perceived as
misleading, is replaced by an information message on the side of the pack that
tobacco smoke contains more than 70 substances causing cancer. Member States
remain free to introduce plain packaging in duly justified cases.
• Ingredients: An electronic reporting format for ingredients and emissions will be
introduced. The proposal foresees a prohibition for cigarettes, roll your own
tobacco and smokeless tobacco that have characterising flavours and a prohibition
of products with increased toxicity and addictiveness.
• Smokeless tobacco: The ban on oral tobacco products (snus) is maintained,
except for Sweden which has an exemption. All smokeless tobacco products
must carry health warnings on the main surfaces of the package and products
with characterising flavours cannot be sold. Novel tobacco products require
prior notification.
• Extension of the scope of the Directive : Nicotine Containing Products (e.g.
electronic cigarettes) below a certain nicotine threshold are allowed on the market,
but must feature health warnings; above this threshold such products are only
allowed if authorised as medicinal products, like nicotine replacement therapies.
Herbal cigarettes will have to carry health warnings.
• Cross border distance sales: A notification for internet retailers and age
verification mechanism are foreseen to ensure that tobacco products are not
sold to children and adolescents.
• Illicit trade: A tracking and tracing system and security features (e.g.
holograms) are foreseen to ensure that only products complying with the Directive
are sold in the EU.
Process and Timelines
The proposal has been adopted following extensive consultation of stakeholders including
a public consultation which generated 85,000 responses. During its preparation, a
thorough impact assessment has been carried out, evaluating economic, social and health
effects of several policy options under consideration. Several external studies were
commissioned during the process.
As a next step, the proposal will be discussed in the European Parliament and in the
Council of Ministers. It is expected to be adopted in 2014. It would come into effect from
2015-2016.

3
Further information:
http://ec.europa.eu/health/tobacco/products/index_en.htm
MEMO/12/1005

Contacts :
Frédéric Vincent (+32 2 298 71 66)
Aikaterini Apostola (+32 2 298 76 24)

tommy2bad · 19-12-2012 1:59pm

So no infomation as to the levels of nic, no wait, Kiffy was right, I looked up the PDF and heres the relivant portion;

The proposal stipulates that NCP that either have a nicotine level exceeding 2 mg, a
nicotine concentration exceeding 4 mg per ml or whose intended use results in a
mean maximum peak plasma concentration exceeding 4 ng per ml may be placed on
the market only if they have been authorised as medicinal products on the basis of
their quality, safety and efficacy, and with a positive risk/benefit balance. NCP with
nicotine levels below this threshold can be sold as consumer products provided they
feature an adapted health warning. The nicotine threshold identified in this proposal
has been established by considering the nicotine content of medicinal products
(Nicotine Replacement Therapies, NRTs) for smoking cessation which have already
received a market authorisation under the medicinal products' legislation.

Much worse than I hoped.
One small light in the gloom though, this isn't the actual directive, it's the proposed directive which has to be passed yet.
Big campaign time. This needs to be stopped, it's a health prevention measure designed to protect the big players in the nrt business not the health of smokers or citizens.
If you think this is the product of scientific evidence look at the requirement for nicotine containing products to carry health warnings, tomatoes, aubergine? WTF!

kiffy · 19-12-2012 2:11pm

tommy2bad wrote: »

So no infomation as to the levels of nic, no wait, Kiffy was right, I looked up the PDF and heres the relivant portion;

Much worse than I hoped.
One small light in the gloom though, this isn't the actual directive, it's the proposed directive which has to be passed yet.
Big campaign time. This needs to be stopped, it's a health prevention measure designed to protect the big players in the nrt business not the health of smokers or citizens.
If you think this is the product of scientific evidence look at the requirement for nicotine containing products to carry health warnings, tomatoes, aubergine? WTF!

The only good thing about is we have 3 years to wean ourselves down to 4mg strength or buy the BAT's version of a NRT device, can't see stockpilling being any long term use as everywhere I have checked life of the stuff is 2 years max even if you put it under the Antartic ice shelf.

When my 18mg stash runs out going to drop to 10mg then 6mg over a good time span. and then I'll probably get Alzheimer's and think a Provari was an alien off Stargate SG1

tommy2bad · 19-12-2012 2:25pm

I'll go black market, law that act against the interest of the general public need to be broken deliberately and often.
It removes any credibility from the health profession, legislators and regulators.
Oh wait they lost that long ago.

Lucutus · 19-12-2012 2:38pm

kiffy wrote: »

The only good thing about is we have 3 years to wean ourselves down to 4mg strength

Unlke some people, (fair play to ye!), I've no intention of weaning myself down nicotine levels. The harm reduction experienced by giving up tar, carbon monoxide and a list of other harmful chemicals as long as yer arm is enough for me.

The 'Extension of the scope of the Directive' part of the proposal is plainly aimed at ensuring that the products we are all currently enjoying will not work for existing smokers as 4mg will not satisfy the craving. This will drive them to expensive NRT products, or, even worse, back to cigarettes.

I also dislike the way they do not distinguish e-cigs as a nicotine product, instead of the implied 'tobacco product'. I think it's misleading.

tommy2bad · 19-12-2012 2:46pm

http://ec.europa.eu/health/tobacco/products/revision/index_en.htm
Forgot to link to the docs.
Yes this is a pro big business directive and supported by tobacco prohibitionists has removed the concept of harm reduction from tobacco control.

Vaperus · 19-12-2012 2:54pm

Also depends at what level medicine they are thinking
Prescription only
Pharmacy
Or other

If other garages and other shops can still sell them

stevenmu · 19-12-2012 4:41pm

Vaperus wrote: »

Also depends at what level medicine they are thinking
Prescription only
Pharmacy
Or other

If other garages and other shops can still sell them

They probably won't be prescription only, they'll be treated like existing nicotine patches/gum etc. The big problem is that as a medical device they will have to undergo extensive testing at the expense of the manufacturer. This will cost millions, and put all the small manufacturers out of business. Probably the only people who'll be able to afford the testing requirements will be the tobacco companies.

Vaperus · 19-12-2012 4:45pm

That also works for us to a point they have to go into consultation on medicinal classification which will delay things a bit giving people like ECITA more time to put our case forward

stevenmu · 19-12-2012 4:52pm

True, with e cigs being relatively new it'll take them a while to work out exactly what to do with them.

tommy2bad · 19-12-2012 5:48pm

stevenmu wrote: »

True, with e cigs being relatively new it'll take them a while to work out exactly what to do with them.

No they know exactly what they are going to do with them; They are to be classified as nicotine containing products, ant nicotine content above 2 or 4mg concentration will need a medical license and be regulated accordingly, any thing below that will require a health warning.
Effectively this means that ecigs can only be sold as nrt i.e. smoking cessation devices, anything else will be ineffective as a nic delivery option and will carry the "This is not a safe alternative to Smoking" warning.
This is a defacto ban and not a regulation.

was.deevey · 19-12-2012 5:57pm

No they know exactly what they are going to do with them; They are to be classified as nicotine containing products, ant nicotine content above 2 or 4mg concentration will need a medical license and be regulated accordingly, any thing below that will require a health warning.
Effectively this means that ecigs can only be sold as nrt i.e. smoking cessation devices, anything else will be ineffective as a nic delivery option and will carry the "This is not a safe alternative to Smoking" warning.
This is a defacto ban and not a regulation.

Surely this can only be a factor on the Juice alone/ and not the devices themselves though unless sold as a package with X-mg carts.

Technically a Disco Smoke mMachine is a Giant PV (PG/VG is the base in fog machines)

Or are they going to regulate it to the point that you will not be able to buy juice whatsoever and only allowed to use pre-filled carts which will set us back 5 years in terms of anything actually worthwhile and usable.

Too many unanswered questions at this time and I'm guessing the "new vendors" have already paid off whoever they need to pay off to put the regulations in place.

Also the price of manufacture IMHO is going to skyrocket. I've been to a few E-cig factories in Shenzhen where they make the egigs and the "sealed" blister packs of carts - this is currently NOT being done in a clean environment, neither are the carts themselves made in any kind of sterile environment and they are handled many many many times on a production line for twisting, stamping, soldering, cotton filling, rubber bunging and vape testing with a pump, most of this done with bare hands before being manually inserted into blister packs or boxes and "sealed".

All this is currently done on a factory floor (think of metalwork class at school). Blister packs and boxes do give the impression of sterility and machine automation, but trust me that isn't the case. Every Cart you smoke most likely has been painstakingly soldered packed with wadding and filled by hand - impressive but not really hygienic.

Might make a few people think twice before Not cleaning that stardust before putting juice inside.

Now if regulation passes, these type of carts with current hygeine standards will IMHO most certainly not be allowed whatsoever unless someone puts up alot of money to automate or "clean" the current manufacturing process in china or make the carts/juices in the EU under strict regulation.

tommy2bad · 19-12-2012 6:08pm

Yep in essence it means that 0 nic novelty ecigs will be all thats left in the shops as medical certification will be required for every strength and flavor that a manufacture produces. So lets say I make e liquid in 3 strengths 24, 18, 12, and offer them in 5 flavors thats 15 crets I require.
I imagine the big tobacco companies might buy some of the ecig makers and get certification for 3 strengths and maybe 2 flavors tobacco and menthol, The companies we deal with are now looking at a huge investment and as flavors are being banned anyway they have no competitive advantage against the approved product. They could make battery devices and try to get round the proprietary carts that the big players will have a patent on and let the customer source their own liquid or settle for 2 mg in tobacco or menthol.
This is a ban dressed up as regulation.

kiffy · 19-12-2012 6:29pm

was.deevey wrote: »

Surely this can only be a factor on the Juice alone/ and not the devices themselves though unless sold as a package with X-mg carts.

Technically a Disco Smoke mMachine is a Giant PV (PG/VG is the base in fog machines)

Or are they going to regulate it to the point that you will not be able to buy juice whatsoever and only allowed to use pre-filled carts which will set us back 5 years in terms of anything actually worthwhile and usable.

Too many unanswered questions at this time and I'm guessing the "new vendors" have already paid off whoever they need to pay off to put the regulations in place.

No mention of tanks or other hardware, they couldn't really do anything about them, it's all supposed to be about nicotine. We have been rightly stiched up like a rag doll by them twat$.

And even if the very small minority of vapours who keep vaping at 4mg (don't know if I can make one of them), will there be any vendors left here with such a small market to do business with?

After my 5ml of Maeve I've been vaping on a 10ml bottle of Pchela's Poison at 10mg (got to be the most lovely juice out there) and the 10mg is fine, just about, the great taste is making up from the drop of 18mg, but what is 4 mg going to be like :eek: I have about 110ml of 18mg Pchela's Poison to use up and then all 10mg for me. I did order a 5mg 30ml bottle directly from Mom & Pops in the states to see what the hell I am going to let myself in for or can even go that low without wanting to kill some f***er.
Really pissed off today and it takes a hell of a lot to get me to be serious for more than 5 minutes, (ask Vaperus and Cavenhill Red

got them a peach) but them bastards have managed what my wife has failed to do in over 30 years.
Plus no eVic for Xmas still not arrived at the Irish shops yet.
Any way won't really matter, tiz the end of the world on the 21st, though today came pretty close to it to

was.deevey · 19-12-2012 6:41pm

No mention of tanks or other hardware, they couldn't really do anything about them, it's all supposed to be about nicotine. We have been rightly stiched up like a rag doll by them twat$.

Hence the reason I'm wondering will the juice itself be restricted or non-approved devices/delivery systems be banned also.

It also means that pure nicotine solution will probably be impossible to buy, so DIY juice will be out of the question unless you are buying pre-made 4mg base which will probably sky high price compared with mixing your own.

tommy2bad · 19-12-2012 8:12pm

Liquid will defiantly be regulated, devices? depends on how far the anti nic zealots get to influence regulation in each member state, some will want atomizers restricted to one type and indeed this suits the tobacco companies, disposable use once is a higher margin product, doesn't matter because their will be no market for 2 mg vaping or 4 for that matter.
No market for batt mods without atties and juice.
This proposal is coming up for vote sometime in '13, we have till then to get some changes that don't eliminate vaping as we know it.
I am preparing a letter to be sent to all the Irish MEPs, posted not email. Then I intend to contact all the health bodies, heart foundation lung foundation ASH all of them and try to get them on side. If we can make enough of a case then maybe we have a chance. I'm not optimistic, pharma companies have a huge influence on governmental policy and they are the instigators of this directive, but I wont quit without a fight of some sort.

kiffy · 19-12-2012 9:05pm

tommy2bad wrote: »

their will be no market for 2 mg vaping or 4 for that matter.

Which is 2mg or 4mg?

Vaperus · 19-12-2012 9:29pm

tommy2bad wrote: »

Liquid will defiantly be regulated, devices? depends on how far the anti nic zealots get to influence regulation in each member state, some will want atomizers restricted to one type and indeed this suits the tobacco companies, disposable use once is a higher margin product, doesn't matter because their will be no market for 2 mg vaping or 4 for that matter.
No market for batt mods without atties and juice.
This proposal is coming up for vote sometime in '13, we have till then to get some changes that don't eliminate vaping as we know it.
I am preparing a letter to be sent to all the Irish MEPs, posted not email. Then I intend to contact all the health bodies, heart foundation lung foundation ASH all of them and try to get them on side. If we can make enough of a case then maybe we have a chance. I'm not optimistic, pharma companies have a huge influence on governmental policy and they are the instigators of this directive, but I wont quit without a fight of some sort.

Everybody should be writing to their MEP's, Vapers and Venders and venders should be getting their customers to write to their MEP's. Might not do any good but cant just sit back and hope somebody else does something

was.deevey · 19-12-2012 10:18pm

What urks me most is that there is ZERO completely ZERO data or research on the actual "harm" of the REAL ingredients of electronic cigarettes. And apart from a few isolated incidents of batteries shorting out and going on fire no REAL research on what they are trying to Ban/Regulate.

Everything they are pushing is based solely on theory right now and finding (FDA pushing to the media) diethylene glycol as an ingredient in E-juice is pure false flag scare tactics in order to push through regulation.

Then I intend to contact all the health bodies, heart foundation lung foundation ASH all of them and try to get them on side.

I would try for a petition list of individual Doctors as well willing to sign off on Electronic Cigarettes, not as healthy or NRT but as a better alternative for those who literally cannot get off the fags, a generic:

Believe these have safer ingredients than cigarettes (with list of actual ingredients in pure e-juice)
Believe that if regulated should be regulated the SAME as real Cigarettes Currently. (1)not a limit on strength or type of device (2) that the devices and juice in question is only purchasable by those over 18 years old (3) Explicitly states that there is no evidence to suggest its a healthy Device and/or other government crap.
Are in their opinion NOT a NRT device, but in their opinion healthier sidestep from real cigarettes both for the user and public in the vacinity of the smoker e.g. Children in a smokers home, patrons in the street etc..
That if Electronic cigarettes are banned under this new ruling that Cigarettes in their entirely should be also regulated down to the same nicotine level and only be sold in medical establishments with the same restrictions in place as regards to how many can be purchased etc ...

If there is a singular type of cartridge being introduced what type will they go with ? .. so far as I know they ALL have drawbacks and can all cause throat issues if they are fired while empty of juice - which will cause even more alarm bells ringing a year or two from now with the health services and a possible total ban if Tom Dick or Harry doesn't realize his ecig was running low and ends up with a severe lung problem as a result of Fibreglass inhalation, filler burning etc.

This DID happen my father in law, he didn't realize his ego-t was suppesed to stay at a visible level of juice and was toking away for a week on burnt aluminum filler. "But its still producing smoke"

It would only take one or two people globally dying or ending up with lung problems for this to be recognized as an unsafe device despite the number of people who burn their fingers trying to light a cigarette in the car.

disposable use once is a higher margin product

Actually they are not really, the battery, charging, manufacture costs, packaging are almost identical in price to a regular joytech cigarette style device, ironically the majority of disposables I've laid my hands on are actually rechargeable lipo batteries with the cartridge made non-removable (some disposables had a 901/801/501 connector).

And theres the drawback of Disposables as well. With Everyone needing somehow to safely dispose of them after use and not being able to refill or replace the heads with (the more profitable) cartridges.

Of course if the carts / ecigs are going to require food/medical grade manufacturing/packaging the price of ecigs are going to go through the roof entirely as most factories in the low cost countries currently making them will not be able to meet EU standards. The cost will be pushed far beyond real cigarettes IMHO once they tax them to the hilt as well, and certainly will no longer a viable alternative for those looking for a way off the cancer sticks.

tommy2bad · 19-12-2012 10:20pm

kiffy wrote: »

Which is 2mg or 4mg?

Thats .2 % and .4% juice not 2% or 4% .
No I'v no idea where they pulled the levels from,some guff about the level of existing NRT products.
Actually what they have regulated for is gateway devices, start on 2mg nic then move to cigs then on to the nrt/cigs merry go round, a win win for both big tobacco and big pharma.

Vaperus · 19-12-2012 10:23pm

We all need to make an appointment to see our MEP's and follow up with letters, we have to do this for ourselves now.
Also the media, we have to make ourselves heard

Vaperus · 19-12-2012 11:21pm

If we have any chance to keep on vaping we ALL need to fight for it.
Contacting MEP's, TD's and the media. We have to make our voices heard.

Any venders reading this should put a notice into every order asking their customers to do the same

we cant sit back on this one

http://www.vapourtrails.tv/?p=4857

http://www.europarl.ie/view/en/Your_MEPs.html

EU draft directive to be presented on wed 19th Dec

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