Where are the conservatives in Ireland?

murphaph · 04-05-2019 4:10pm

Blueshoe wrote: »

So where do you draw the line with negative views against mass immigration into Europe. Specifically Muslim immigration into Europe?
An opposing opinion is not allowed. Why not?

It is allowed as long as it doesn't incite to hate.

Maybe Irish people know that at one time "Catholic hordes" migrating from our speck of earth to the US were also feared by the largely WASP settlers already there (a wet weekend).

The mass migration of 2015 is over though. A common refugee and migration policy for all EU member states is long overdue.

The vast majority of Muslim migrants in Ireland are of course not refugees to the EU. They have been admitted directly by Ireland because they satisfy Irish third country immigration rules.

Ruraldweller56 · 04-05-2019 4:15pm

super_furry wrote: »

Well which one of those organisations you mention has a presence in every single village in Ireland? Which organisation controls most of the school our children go to? Which organisation is still wrapped around every part of life in Ireland?

I want to live in the Ireland that Liberals believe we live in.

Sleeper12 · 04-05-2019 4:32pm

pablojml wrote:

I'm not very familiar with the political parties of Ireland, and would like to ask where or which are the conservative parties in Ireland, not the fake ones, I mean the real conservatives who are for core family values, there are only two genders, a family is a man a woman and children, homosexuality is not a normal lifestyle and can be overcome (not hating it but not promoting it), safe borders, controlled immigration and not massive influx of ilegal immigration, parents are the main educators of children not schools, abortion means killing a baby, rights come from God and not men, not being driven by emotios but by logic, etc etc. Are they extinct? I am finding it really hard to find a political party with such great values. Are there any groups that anyone can join? Regards to all.

Can I ask if it took long for you to overcome your homosexual thoughts and behaviour? Was it easy for you to become straight after being homosexual?

Brian? · 04-05-2019 4:33pm

stefanovich wrote: »

This says it all really. Your classification of people who want immigration control betrays your own ideology.

Hilarious.

I have zero issue with immigration control and am quite happy to hear people’s opinions on it.

It’s the god bothering, anti gay rhetoric that makes them the lunatic fringe not the anti immigration stance.

Brian? · 04-05-2019 4:34pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

So we started off asking why Ireland is not conservative enough and gone on to slaming Islam for being too conservative.

Very narrow window people are being asked to operate in here.

They lack a sense of irony.

Blueshoe · 04-05-2019 4:50pm

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Because your description of Islam could easily be used to describe Catholicism/Christianity. Do you believe Ireland should only allow christians to live there?

The Catholic church is already here and is losing influence consistently. Thankfully

But ignore my point anyway. Usual story

Blueshoe · 04-05-2019 4:56pm

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Sounds a lot like Ireland in the 70s, 80s and early 90s.

Seeing as Islam is hundreds of years old, they appear to have assimilated just fine. Most of the worst atrocities carried out in Europe in the 20th century were done in the name of socities purporting to be Christian, or in the Soviet Union's case, godless.

It's progressive to discriminate on religious grounds? Now we're sounding like Ireland in the 30s.

I think we're inviting people here of all religious persuasions and none because we've learned more than most that sectarian attitudes lead to a sullen and sorry society, and we wish to be better than that.

Do you think Islam is compatible with liberal progressive Ireland?

You and others keep going back to sure that sounds like the Catholic church years ago.
Was that a good thing ? Is that why you say it?

stefanovich · 04-05-2019 4:57pm

Blueshoe wrote: »

Do you think Islam is compatible with liberal progressive Ireland?

You and others keep going back to sure that sounds like the Catholic church years ago.
Was that a good thing ? Is that why you say it?

The catholic church years ago is comparable to very moderate Islam.

Blueshoe · 04-05-2019 4:59pm

stefanovich wrote: »

The catholic church years ago is comparable to very moderate Islam.

An do you think that they were great times. Let's pretend we are progressive yet invite in people with beliefs from the dark ages.

I actually think that most of you on the left are nice welcoming people who see the best in people and believe we can all hold hands and get along but your failings are shortsightedness and gullibility.
We can't all get along because we are not the same in views, religious beliefs, culture, history and attitude.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1122649/isis-news-latest-terror-france-jihadist-police-elysee-palace

Oh look another one

briany · 04-05-2019 5:30pm

Blueshoe wrote: »

An do you think that they were great times. Let's pretend we are progressive yet invite in people with beliefs from the dark ages.

I actually think that most of you on the left are nice welcoming people who see the best in people and believe we can all hold hands and get along but your failings are shortsightedness and gullibility.
We can't all get along because we are not the same in views, religious beliefs, culture, history and attitude.

It's interesting that you're having a go at those naive lefties. That really sums the whole thing up. I could just as well argue that so much of what we might call undesirable immigration as being a product of neo-liberal economics, led by the captains of industry who love the fact that plenty will come to the west to do menial work for next to no money.

But, shur, let's carry on with the right blaming the left, and the left blaming the right, while the money men carry on laughing their heads off at the lot of us.

Blueshoe · 04-05-2019 5:33pm

briany wrote: »

It's interesting that you're having a go at those naive lefties. That really sums the whole thing up. I could just as well argue that so much of what we might call undesirable immigration as being a product of neo-liberal economics, led by the captains of industry who love the fact that plenty will come to the west to do menial work for next to no money.

But, shur, let's carry on with the right blaming the left, and the left blaming the right, while the money men carry on laughing their heads off at the lot of us.

That is a valid point. But if the left are in favour of immigration and they are the majority of the population who in turn vote in pro immigration parties then why wouldn't people on the right blame the left

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 04-05-2019 5:33pm

Blueshoe wrote: »

Do you think Islam is compatible with liberal progressive Ireland?

You and others keep going back to sure that sounds like the Catholic church years ago.
Was that a good thing ? Is that why you say it?

The religion? No. The practicioners? Depends on what level of practice.

Hate, discrimination and intolerance are **** off and take their catholic, muslim, athiest, whatever practicioners with them.

Blueshoe wrote: »

An do you think that they were great times. Let's pretend we are progressive yet invite in people with beliefs from the dark ages.

I actually think that most of you on the left are nice welcoming people who see the best in people and believe we can all hold hands and get along but your failings are shortsightedness and gullibility.
We can't all get along because we are not the same in views, religious beliefs, culture, history and attitude.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1122649/isis-news-latest-terror-france-jihadist-police-elysee-palace

Oh look another one

No, you think extreme left policies are nice welcoming and so on. The idea that very few left-leaning people actually hold said policies isn't something you can get your head around.

It's like dealing with a classic social justice warrior: you just can NOT let labels go.

Blueshoe · 04-05-2019 5:35pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

The religion? No. The practicioners? Depends on what level of practice.

Hate, discrimination and intolerance are **** off and take their catholic, muslim, athiest, whatever practicioners with them.

No, you think extreme left policies are nice welcoming and so on. The idea that very few left-leaning people actually hold said policies isn't something you can get your head around.

It's like dealing with a classic social justice warrior: you just can NOT let labels go.

The numbers in Europe are rising and the only people I see complaining about it are those on the right ( who are now called far right because of this stance) .

What 'policies' are you specifically refering to?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 04-05-2019 5:40pm

Blueshoe wrote: »

The numbers in Europe are rising and the only people I see complaining about it are those on the right ( who are now called far right because of this stance) .

Not relevant to the post I made.

What 'policies' are you specifically refering to?

The policies were YOU thinking of when you wrote, "I actually think that most of you on the left are nice welcoming people who see the best in people and believe we can all hold hands and get along but your failings are shortsightedness and gullibility." If you have to ask which ones specifcily, it kind of indicates that you weren't thinking of anything when you wrote it.

Because I know of no such policies that make people think like this other than the ones in your head.

Harry Palmr · 04-05-2019 5:44pm

Hmm, long standing account largely dormant which spring back to life to decry vaccinations and is now wondering about the right wing, cue new registrations giving it large. It's almost like it was coordinated.

Blueshoe · 04-05-2019 5:45pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Not relevant to the post I made.

The policies were YOU thinking of when you wrote, "I actually think that most of you on the left are nice welcoming people who see the best in people and believe we can all hold hands and get along but your failings are shortsightedness and gullibility." If you have to ask which ones specifcily, it kind of indicates that you weren't thinking of anything when you wrote it.

Because I know of no such policies that make people think like this other than the ones in your head.

You don't make sense. It's not a policy it's a mindset.
We can all co exist peacefully. Everyone is nice etc

listermint · 04-05-2019 5:48pm

Blueshoe wrote: »

Do you think Islam is compatible with liberal progressive Ireland?

You and others keep going back to sure that sounds like the Catholic church years ago.
Was that a good thing ? Is that why you say it?

Do you know any Muslims ?

Do you know that there a various forms and flavours inside it .

The same as Catholicism there's a la carte variety's.

Yes I think people of different faiths can live beside each other perfectly fine.

It's when these faiths are used by people who seek land power money and greed is when it becomes a problem.

But sure you know that anyway.

Doubt your ever spoke to , worked with or befriended people of any other faith than your own in your life.

Sheltered.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 04-05-2019 5:49pm

Blueshoe wrote: »

You don't make sense. It's not a policy it's a mindset.
We can all co exist peacefully. Everyone is nice etc

Fair enough.

IN which case I chance my original statement to: you think extreme left mindsets are nice welcoming and so on. The idea that very few left-leaning people actually hold said mindsets isn't something you can get your head around.

It's like dealing with a classic social justice warrior: you just can NOT let labels go.

briany · 04-05-2019 5:50pm

Blueshoe wrote: »

That is a valid point. But if the left are in favour of immigration and they are the majority of the population who in turn vote in pro immigration parties then why wouldn't people on the right blame the left

To say the left are in favour of immigration is far too simplistic. Your problem would appear to be with (a certain section of) the left who are in favour of (uncontrolled / too loose a policy of) immigration from certain countries. I say a certain section because there are those on the left who are sceptical of immigration as well, as insularity and economic protectionism are not strict preserves of the right. So, when you narrow it down to these criteria, I'm not convinced that they exist in such a majority as to vote in, as you call them, pro-immigration parties, and I'm not convinced that so-called pro-immigration parties are voted in on that basis.

WinnyThePoo · 04-05-2019 5:52pm

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Hmm, long standing account largely dormant which spring back to life to decry vaccinations and is now wondering about the right wing, cue new registrations giving it large. It's almost like it was coordinated.

Agreed.

Also it's not conservatism the op is looking for... Its other fruitcakes.

Blueshoe · 04-05-2019 5:52pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Fair enough.

IN which case I chance my original statement to: you think extreme left mindsets are nice welcoming and so on. The idea that very few left-leaning people actually hold said mindsets isn't something you can get your head around.

It's like dealing with a classic social justice warrior: you just can NOT let labels go.

Very few left leaning people agree with mass immigration?
Pull the other one.

Blueshoe · 04-05-2019 5:56pm

listermint wrote: »

Do you know any Muslims ?

Do you know that there a various forms and flavours inside it .

The same as Catholicism there's a la carte variety's.

Yes I think people of different faiths can live beside each other perfectly fine.

It's when these faiths are used by people who seek land power money and greed is when it becomes a problem.

But sure you know that anyway.

Doubt your ever spoke to , worked with or befriended people of any other faith than your own in your life.

Sheltered.

It all comes down to numbers. Invite in too many types who don't want to integrate and it creates division, ghettoisation and suspicion.

Those who do want to integrate and contribute should be welcomed IF there are jobs, infrastructure and accommodation in place. Otherwise no thanks

Jim2007 · 04-05-2019 5:57pm

Blueshoe wrote: »

They do not assimilate to our culture and never will. This is seen all around Europe.

It is a to way process. How may muslims have you invited into your home then? Gone and had a cup of coffee or tea with any of them in the last week or so?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 04-05-2019 5:57pm

Blueshoe wrote: »

Very few left leaning people agree with mass immigration?
Pull the other one.

Have you asked them? Or have you just gone with labels?

Blueshoe · 04-05-2019 5:59pm

Jim2007 wrote: »

It is a to way process. How may muslims have you invited into your home then? Gone and had a cup of coffee or tea with any of them in the last week or so?

I don't welcome them so it's not a two way process. But I am not allowed to have this view.

The reason I don't welcome them is I don't think their ideology is a good fit into Ireland. Nothing personal against the individuals just not compatible

Blueshoe · 04-05-2019 6:01pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Have you asked them? Or have you just gone with labels?

You have decided to run with this. The left are against mass immigration!
Come on

listermint · 04-05-2019 6:03pm

Blueshoe wrote: »

It all comes down to numbers. Invite in too many types who don't want to integrate and it creates division, ghettoisation and suspicion.

Those who do want to integrate and contribute should be welcomed IF there are jobs, infrastructure and accommodation in place. Otherwise no thanks

So you don't know any Muslims grand that's the first notch against your nonsense.

Secondly do you know how many Muslims are in Ireland.

Let alone Europe.

Let's get down to brass tacks on minorities here.

Blueshoe · 04-05-2019 6:07pm

listermint wrote: »

So you don't know any Muslims grand that's the first notch against your nonsense.

Secondly do you know how many Muslims are in Ireland.

Let alone Europe.

Let's get down to brass tacks on minorities here.

How is me personally knowing any Muslims relevant?

Are you going to say that Islam is a modern religion whos followers beliefs are a good fit for a modern progressive Ireland?
Or that Islamic extremism does not exist?
Or Islam is pro gay and women's rights?

Or that Muslims will integrate in Ireland even though we see division and violence throughout Europe. Ireland will be different for some reason

briany · 04-05-2019 6:12pm

Blueshoe wrote: »

I don't welcome them so it's not a two way process. But I am not allowed to have this view.

The reason I don't welcome them is I don't think their ideology is a good fit into Ireland. Nothing personal against the individuals just not compatible

It appears to me that your problem is not really with Muslims specifically, but of anyone with a conservative religious bent that clashes with the more socially liberal, secular values that most of western society currently uses.

Blueshoe · 04-05-2019 6:16pm

briany wrote: »

It appears to me that your problem is not really with Muslims specifically, but of anyone with a conservative religious bent that clashes with the more socially liberal, secular values that most of western society currently uses.

I just don't think we should invite in future possible problems and am disappointed that nowadays I can not have this view represented politically.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 04-05-2019 6:20pm

Blueshoe wrote: »

You have decided to run with this. The left are against mass immigration!
Come on

So, you rely on labels then. That's that sorted out.

Said it ages ago, saying it again: the closer you are the more logical and open-to-debate you are. As you move away from center - regardless of what direction you go in - you start to encounter angry bitter people who just to have their biases confirmed and rely on labels to do so.

Guy:Incognito · 04-05-2019 6:22pm

Blueshoe wrote: »

We can't all get along because we are not the same in views, religious beliefs, culture, history and attitude.

I dont have the same views as you. Or religious beliefs. My mother is an immigrant (albeit from an EU country) .

So it looks like one of us might have to leave the country. I'm happy enough here as things are so I vote you.

Blueshoe · 04-05-2019 6:23pm

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

I dont have the same views as you. Or religious beliefs. My mother is an immigrant (albeit from an EU country) .

So it looks like one of us might have to leave the country. I'm happy enough here as things are so I vote you.

You have misunderstood.

biko · 04-05-2019 6:23pm

Renua is your man OP.
Having said that the party probably won't last much longer, key members leaving.
Ireland is a middle ground country, and no major party holds radical views either way, thankfully

Edit, look up Human Dignity Alliance
They oppose same-sex marriages and abortion so might be what you're looking for.

Brian? · 04-05-2019 6:29pm

Blueshoe wrote: »

That is a valid point. But if the left are in favour of immigration and they are the majority of the population who in turn vote in pro immigration parties then why wouldn't people on the right blame the left

What pro immigration parties?

Blueshoe · 04-05-2019 6:30pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

So, you rely on labels then. That's that sorted out.

Said it ages ago, saying it again: the closer you are the more logical and open-to-debate you are. As you move away from center - regardless of what direction you go in - you start to encounter angry bitter people who just to have their biases confirmed and rely on labels to do so.

I wouldn't say I'm angry or bitter about it to be honest. More disappointed than anything but as an individual who is hugely outnumbered by voters with a differing opinion I can't see a change of course coming any time soon. It doesn't affect my life either way but in years to come who's to say.
I can't see the sense in people being proud about a modern Ireland yet inviting in with open arms a culture who kill gay people and treat women as dirt

Makes no sense to me to be honest

Brian? · 04-05-2019 6:32pm

Blueshoe wrote: »

You have decided to run with this. The left are against mass immigration!
Come on

You know "The left" are not a homogenous group who agree on everything? We don't have meetings to decide what we think about every issue.

Blueshoe · 04-05-2019 6:35pm

Brian? wrote: »

What pro immigration parties?

The European parliament as a whole is liberal and pro immigration. We take our orders from them in regards to quotas etc. Our government does not resist this therefore is pro immigration.
Hungary or Poland would be anti immigration governments and we all see the grief the Hungarian government gets.

Blueshoe · 04-05-2019 6:35pm

Brian? wrote: »

You know "The left" are not a homogenous group who agree on everything? We don't have meetings to decide what we think about every issue.

In general. It's a mindset.
Iv yet to see an anti immigration left wing demonstration.
It would be an oxymoron

Brian? · 04-05-2019 6:36pm

Blueshoe wrote: »

I wouldn't say I'm angry or bitter about it to be honest. More disappointed than anything but as an individual who is hugely outnumbered by voters with a differing opinion I can't see a change of course coming any time soon. It doesn't affect my life either way but in years to come who's to say.
I can't see the sense in people being proud about a modern Ireland yet inviting in with open arms a culture who kill gay people and treat women as dirt

Makes no sense to me to be honest

Ireland is not inviting any particular culture in. In fact the Irish immigration laws are pretty tough compared to a lot of places. I think this is the route of your dissatisfaction, you see more Muslims and assume we've somehow opened our borders. We haven't.

Brian? · 04-05-2019 6:38pm

Blueshoe wrote: »

The European parliament as a whole is liberal and pro immigration. We take our orders from them in regards to quotas etc. Our government does not resist this therefore is pro immigration.
Hungary or Poland would be anti immigration governments and we all see the grief the Hungarian government gets.

Ireland controls it's own immigration policies for non EU nationals. Are you talking about refugees? Those are tiny numbers

Blueshoe · 04-05-2019 6:38pm

Brian? wrote: »

Ireland is not inviting any particular culture in. In fact the Irish immigration laws are pretty tough compared to a lot of places. I think this is the route of your dissatisfaction, you see more Muslims and assume we've somehow opened our borders. We haven't.

The census claims a 29% increase between 2011 and 2016. It's happening. No doubt

Brian? · 04-05-2019 6:40pm

Blueshoe wrote: »

In general. It's a mindset.
Iv yet to see an anti immigration left wing demonstration.
It would be an oxymoron

What's a mindset?

There aren't many right wing anti immigration protests either to be fair. The few I see are actually anti immigrant, not anti immigration.

I don't think you mean oxymoron.

Brian? · 04-05-2019 6:41pm

Blueshoe wrote: »

The census claims a 29% increase between 2011 and 2016. It's happening. No doubt

29% increase in what?

Blueshoe · 04-05-2019 6:43pm

Brian? wrote: »

What's a mindset?

There aren't many right wing anti immigration protests either to be fair. The few I see are actually anti immigrant, not anti immigration.

I don't think you mean oxymoron.

If my wording was off I apologise.

I am still yet to see a left wing anti immigrant protest

Blueshoe · 04-05-2019 6:47pm

Brian? wrote: »

29% increase in what?

Muslim population in Ireland.
I know they can have big families but I don't think it's from births.

Actually while we are on it did you know that 1 in 8 people living in Ireland were born abroad and 10 % of the population are foreign nationals. Obviously not Muslims as they are still only very small numbers but interesting nonetheless

Tell me how · 04-05-2019 6:47pm

Blueshoe wrote: »

The census claims a 29% increase between 2011 and 2016. It's happening. No doubt

And this increase brought it to 1.32% of the total population....

Meaning an increase of about 2,850 per year over that period.

Hardly an invasion is it?

Blueshoe · 04-05-2019 6:49pm

Tell me how wrote: »

And this increase brought it to 1.32% of the total population....

Meaning an increase of about 2,850 per year over that period.

Hardly an invasion is it?

I didn't say it was. I said it's a 29% increase as per the figures. It's early days

04-05-2019 6:50pm

stefanovich wrote: »

This says it all really. Your classification of people who want immigration control betrays your own ideology.

Not going by the posters on here who support it, their normally the same ones who are anti vaccination, anti gay, anti social welfare etc. A quick look at their post history normally shows this.

Sort of a mix of troll level and mental health issues in one.

joe40 · 04-05-2019 6:57pm

Blueshoe wrote: »

I didn't say it was. I said it's a 29% increase as per the figures. It's early days

%increases on small numbers always look big. If we went fro 5 muslims to 10 muslims it would be a 100% increase.
Muslims still make up a tiny percentage of the popoulation.
Are some people suggesting we should ban muslims fr entering the countryand make the religion illegal.
Regardless of an individuals views or opinons the laws of the land apply to everyone.

Where are the conservatives in Ireland?

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