Where are the conservatives in Ireland?

James Brown

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Ben and gemma are completely off the deep end compared to trump and farage, you might not like them but ben and gemma have more in line with alex jones conspiracy theory levels of extreme racism than just plain old conservatism.

TBF Trump has his conspiracy moments not to mention borderline mental health issues unless he's only joking about half the nonsense he tweets.

The Late Late Show

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Ben and gemma are completely off the deep end compared to trump and farage, you might not like them but ben and gemma have more in line with alex jones conspiracy theory levels of extreme racism than just plain old conservatism.

Gemma O'Doherty was once a respected journalist before she started dealing in conspiracy theories and the like. She said the state had a role in the situation where Veronica Guerin was killed. Enough said.

I wouldn't call her, this Gilroy person, Trump or Farage conservatives. Trump is the opposite to conservative. To a greater or lesser extent, all of these are racist and focus on narrow obsessions like immigration or in the case of this O'Doherty, 'anti-corruption'. As regards ideology, all those mentioned have absolutely nothing to offer once you get past what they are anti. Some people call 2019 America Gilead/The Handmaid's Tale but it is not because that world had a certain set of beliefs in place and was not about just knocking the opposition.

Another trend in recent year is the rise of the 'celebrity politician', someone famous for something else decides to enter politics. This worked in America for Trump and for a comedian in Ukraine. In Ireland's last 2 presidential elections, Dragon's Den businessmen ran for the presidency and in both cases, came second. Others ranging from Gemma O'Doherty to George Lee and Eddie Hobbs are having a go at politics too. The problem here is many of these are ill suited to politics and hold controversial opinions in some cases.

The media's constant desire to feature the controversial puts such people in the public eye. Remember Bill Cullen and he saying people should work for nothing? Remember Katie Hopkins. She found fame through The Apprentice. The problem here is if trashy reality TV gives us these trashy individuals and they go for politics, then we get trashy politicians with way out conspiracy theories. Sadly, people vote for these type of clowns because they are 'well known'.

These reality TV type politicians also tend to jump on whatever bandwagon they can. Take Peter Casey for example: having failed to differentiate himself from the 2 other 'dragons' in the race, he takes advantage of a traveller related dispute and hones in on the large anti-traveller sentiment out there and comes second. Much like entrepreneurs try and sell their ideas to Casey on Dragon's Den, Casey sells himself to a particular audience but if you peel away all his negative views, there is nothing really there.

Eric Cartman

The Late Late Show wrote: »

Gemma O'Doherty was once a respected journalist before she started dealing in conspiracy theories and the like. She said the state had a role in the situation where Veronica Guerin was killed. Enough said.

I used to date a girl who thought the indo did it to sell papers (didn't last long after that one came out) . There is some serious amount of people in this country who believe in guerin conspiracies and willingly think gilligan was framed.

The Late Late Show

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I used to date a girl who thought the indo did it to sell papers (didn't last long after that one came out) . There is some serious amount of people in this country who believe in guerin conspiracies and willingly think gilligan was framed.

Yes, and I remember an attempt at having Gilligan on a chatshow but then the idea was dropped. If it went ahead, these things would be revived once again.

Gemma O'Doherty was once highly regarded as a serious journalist but since she went political, has resorted to believing in and furthering wild conspiracy theories any trained journalist like her would know to be fake.

Hotblack Desiato

The idiotic conspiracy theories are one thing.

The blatant racism, homophobia and transphobia are far worse than any silly talk about flouride or chemtrails.

RobertKK

The problem with labels like conservative and liberal is this, people may have liberal views on some issues and conservative views on other issues.
The media in this country in general is very much on the liberal side.

I do think in time, maybe in many years I don't know how long, there will be a swing back to more conservatism. It could be argued the country went from extreme conservatism and we are heading to or are in a period of extreme liberalism - and this will lead to a swing back in time.
The problem we have is getting the balance right. I think we need a bit of conservatism and a bit of liberalism to have it right.

mcmoustache

Matt Barrett wrote: »

TBF Trump has his conspiracy moments not to mention borderline mental health issues unless he's only joking about half the nonsense he tweets.

I guess it's a question of scale. Whatever about Trump's conspiratorial tendencies, I don't think they're anywhere near the batshíttery of Doherty and Gilroy.

James Brown

RobertKK wrote: »

The problem with labels like conservative and liberal is this, people may have liberal views on some issues and conservative views on other issues.
The media in this country in general is very much on the liberal side.

I do think in time, maybe in many years I don't know how long, there will be a swing back to more conservatism. It could be argued the country went from extreme conservatism and we are heading to or are in a period of extreme liberalism - and this will lead to a swing back in time.
The problem we have is getting the balance right. I think we need a bit of conservatism and a bit of liberalism to have it right.

I think the idea that the media is very much on the liberal side is a right wing con myself. The Indo sang from O'Brien's hymn sheet and O'Reilly's before him. Hardly two FARC rebels. News items were geared with a bias towards business and political interests.
The Irish Times seems to back the status quo, above which party is actually in IMO.
RTE might be seen as a little left leaning in comparison but then look at Gaybo refusing to sit with Gerry Adams on the flagship talk show or Brian Dobson calling protesters 'idiots'.
Calling much of the media liberal is a gimmick like 'fake news' it helps people dodge being held to account. It's no accident Trump wants everyone to dismiss any organisation that's critical of him. Borne from that was the whole snowflake, libtard, media conspiracy shyte we have to deal with now on a daily basis.
News outlets always had an underlying bias.

The Late Late Show

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The idiotic conspiracy theories are one thing.

The blatant racism, homophobia and transphobia are far worse than any silly talk about flouride or chemtrails.

When you blend conspiracy theories with racism, misogyny, homophobia, sectarianism and so forth and then manage to get cultish following behind 'the cause', then the problems arise. Every factual and fictional cultish state from the Third Reich to the Republic of Gilead (The Handmaid's Tale) are 100% based on that.

The Late Late Show

mcmoustache wrote: »

I guess it's a question of scale. Whatever about Trump's conspiratorial tendencies, I don't think they're anywhere near the batshíttery of Doherty and Gilroy.

Gilroy was hardly any surprise. He has been spouting conspiracy theories with absolutely no foundation for years while setting up and helping fringe parties with equally batty individuals in them. But Doherty was more of a surprise to many. But I can see where she gets off: she can give the fringe conspiracists a convincing journo flavour and spin their lies better.

hill16bhoy

RobertKK wrote: »

The problem with labels like conservative and liberal is this, people may have liberal views on some issues and conservative views on other issues.
The media in this country in general is very much on the liberal side.

I do think in time, maybe in many years I don't know how long, there will be a swing back to more conservatism. It could be argued the country went from extreme conservatism and we are heading to or are in a period of extreme liberalism - and this will lead to a swing back in time.
The problem we have is getting the balance right. I think we need a bit of conservatism and a bit of liberalism to have it right.

What is "extreme liberalism"?

What do you see Ireland "swinging back to"?

Banning abortion?

Banning divorce?

Outlawing same sex marriage?

Re-introducing the marriage bar?

More cases like Majella Moynihan?

PopePalpatine

hill16bhoy wrote: »

RobertKK wrote: »

The problem with labels like conservative and liberal is this, people may have liberal views on some issues and conservative views on other issues.
The media in this country in general is very much on the liberal side.

I do think in time, maybe in many years I don't know how long, there will be a swing back to more conservatism. It could be argued the country went from extreme conservatism and we are heading to or are in a period of extreme liberalism - and this will lead to a swing back in time.
The problem we have is getting the balance right. I think we need a bit of conservatism and a bit of liberalism to have it right.

What is "extreme liberalism"?

What do you see Ireland "swinging back to"?

Banning abortion?

Banning divorce?

Outlawing same sex marriage?

Re-introducing the marriage bar?

More cases like Majella Moynihan?

IME no-one expressing the hope expectation that there'll be a reversal of perceived liberal/progressive/leftist excess ever expands on it.

hill16bhoy

PopePalpatine wrote: »

IME no-one expressing the hope expectation that there'll be a reversal of perceived liberal/progressive/leftist excess ever expands on it.

Of course they don't, because there's nothing remotely extreme about treating other people with respect and dignity based on who they are, and everything extreme about trying to deny other people that.

And it's always other people whose rights are up for debate, never the person making the remarks themselves.

friendlyfun

We're not really conservative in the way American conservatives are.

I think most people in Ireland accept the welfare state, and don't liken it to socialism or communism 🙄 we're also not big fans of military expansionism or adventurism.

Parties here right of Fine Gael have failed to pick up votes, Identity Ireland, Renua, and its largely because Irish people generally don't really have the appetite for sort of politics. Renua would be more like the US republican party yet they haven't a single representative.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

RobertKK wrote: »

The problem with labels like conservative and liberal is this, people may have liberal views on some issues and conservative views on other issues.
The media in this country in general is very much on the liberal side.

I do think in time, maybe in many years I don't know how long, there will be a swing back to more conservatism. It could be argued the country went from extreme conservatism and we are heading to or are in a period of extreme liberalism - and this will lead to a swing back in time.
The problem we have is getting the balance right. I think we need a bit of conservatism and a bit of liberalism to have it right.

We're not extreme liberalism and we never will be. There are no extreme liberal parties in Ireland that command anywhere near a strong enough following, and baring an apocalypse I don't see any scenraio whereby they ever will have.

While we are socially very liberal, I'd argue economically we're still certainly right of center.

Brian?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

We're not extreme liberalism and we never will be. There are no extreme liberal parties in Ireland that command anywhere near a strong enough following, and baring an apocalypse I don't see any scenraio whereby they ever will have.

While we are socially very liberal, I'd argue economically we're still certainly right of center.

Isn't the term "extreme liberal" an oxymoron? I would say liberalism is far too centerist to ever be extreme in any way.

I'm sure if you're an extreme conservative, particularly of the religious type, you'd see same sex marriage and abortion rights as an extreme position. When they aren't, they were supported by a 2/3 majority.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Brian? wrote: »

Isn't the term "extreme liberal" an oxymoron? I would say liberalism is far too centerist to ever be extreme in any way.

Not if you take liberal as being a noun. Anarchists would be extreme(ly?) liberal.

I'm sure if you're an extreme conservative, particularly of the religious type, you'd see same sex marriage and abortion rights as an extreme position. When they aren't, they were supported by a 2/3 majority.

Well, extreme doesn't necessarily popular. The Nazis were popular in Germany in the 30s. Some extreme Islamic states exist today.

The Late Late Show

friendlyfun wrote: »

We're not really conservative in the way American conservatives are.

I think most people in Ireland accept the welfare state, and don't liken it to socialism or communism �� we're also not big fans of military expansionism or adventurism.

Parties here right of Fine Gael have failed to pick up votes, Identity Ireland, Renua, and its largely because Irish people generally don't really have the appetite for sort of politics. Renua would be more like the US republican party yet they haven't a single representative.

Ireland has normally been a Centre Left to Centre Right country and has rejected extremes. Parties like Identity Gilead Ireland and Direct Dictatorship Democracy are the sort of hypocrites from the far right we do not need in this country. Renua is more moderate but has nothing to offer apart from being more 'pro-life' than Fine Gael.

RobertKK

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

We're not extreme liberalism and we never will be. There are no extreme liberal parties in Ireland that command anywhere near a strong enough following, and baring an apocalypse I don't see any scenraio whereby they ever will have.

While we are socially very liberal, I'd argue economically we're still certainly right of center.

Not yet, we were extreme conservatism, but the gradual move to more and more liberal views will take it to the extreme.
I know this won't go down well, but young boys wearing girls clothes to school was being tweeted by our health minister as something great, a man who is doing a questionable job and doesn't tweet about all his own failings as minister for health.
Children bully other children, and all this would lead to is bullying but I see a lot of people thinking young boys going to school in girls clothing as something great. It would not work out good, and a parent who dresses their young boy up as a girl is just asking for another child to abuse their child.
We all remember going to school and being a child and we all remember that fitting in and not sticking out lead to an easier experience.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

RobertKK wrote: »

Not yet, we were extreme conservatism, but the gradual move to more and more liberal views will take it to the extreme.
I know this won't go down well, but young boys wearing girls clothes to school was being tweeted by our health minister as something great, a man who is doing a questionable job and doesn't tweet about all his own failings as minister for health.
Children bully other children, and all this would lead to is bullying but I see a lot of people thinking young boys going to school in girls clothing as something great. It would not work out good, and a parent who dresses their young boy up as a girl is just asking for another child to abuse their child.
We all remember going to school and being a child and we all remember that fitting in and not sticking out lead to an easier experience.

Not really sure I agree with your definition of "extreme".

Extreme conservatism is Nazi Germany and Islamic Shiria states; and equality is not extreme liberalism.

hill16bhoy

RobertKK wrote: »

Not yet, we were extreme conservatism, but the gradual move to more and more liberal views will take it to the extreme.
I know this won't go down well, but young boys wearing girls clothes to school was being tweeted by our health minister as something great, a man who is doing a questionable job and doesn't tweet about all his own failings as minister for health.
Children bully other children, and all this would lead to is bullying but I see a lot of people thinking young boys going to school in girls clothing as something great. It would not work out good, and a parent who dresses their young boy up as a girl is just asking for another child to abuse their child.
We all remember going to school and being a child and we all remember that fitting in and not sticking out lead to an easier experience.

No parent is going to make a boy who doesn't want to dress as a girl do so.

The whole point of gender neutral uniforms is to allow children who are experiencing gender identity issues to wear the variation of uniform they feel most comfortable with.

That's unquestionably a good thing.

28 years ago girls in my primary school class asked if they could wear trousers instead of skirts on cold winter mornings - they were laughed out of it by the principal. Girls were to wear skirts and that was that.

It's good that we've moved on from that sort of authoritarian nonsense.

Society came to terms with the idea of girls wanting to wear trousers years ago. Why should there be any difference between that and children who are experiencing gender identity issues, or indeed boys who identify as boys, wanting to wear skirts?

Clothes are just pieces of cloth anyway, they don't have a gender. The Romans wore skirts. Scottish rugby fans wear skirts. Catholic priests wear dresses.

Let people wear what they want to wear and feck the miserable begrudgers, it's none of their business whatsoever and it isn't harming them or harming anybody else in any way.

Bullying in school often happens because children are brought up with backward opinions. Telling people they can't do something because other people have backward opinions is a bully's charter. Sure keep homosexuality underground because gay people need to be protected for their own good, or something something. Utter nonsense. People with backward opinions don't have a right to be protected and cocooned from other people living their lives the way they want to.

Your uncomfortableness with people wearing what they want is irrelevant.

Earlier on I asked you what "extreme liberalism" is, and what you foresaw Ireland "returning to" in terms of it becoming more conservative.

Like, would we overturn the our pro-choice laws, our divorce laws, our same sex marriage laws, would we return to having something like the marriage bar in the public service etc.

It would be really good to get some flesh on the bones of this more conservative Ireland you predict will emerge.

AndrewJRenko

RobertKK wrote: »

a man who is doing a questionable job and doesn't tweet about all his own failings as minister for health.

Have you come across many people who tweet about their own failings at anything? It seems like an odd measure to judge him by.

suicide_circus

i think a big element to modern conservatism is a resistance to throwing the baby out with bathwater when it comes to reforms - yes we need to fix things but we get a lot of things right too and just because an idea is old dosnt mean its bad, quite the reverse in some cases.

The most vocal critics of "the west" are frequently the people who have benefited most from its fruits; human rights, personal freedoms, stable government, strong economies. I dont like ingrates.

Larbre34

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

While we are socially very liberal, I'd argue economically we're still certainly right of center.

What better description of post-war European politics in a nutshell.

And thats the key. With the demise of church dominance over social policy and direction in Ireland and the three decade backlash against it all we have done is catch up with prevailing wind of western Europe, personal freedoms and cautious economics.

There is absolutely no traction of any kind for American style hard combative conservatism in Ireland because oddly even the Catholic church didn't mirror the kind of southern evangelical root of that school of thought. As much as Irish people might hate to recognise the commonality, we are more naturally drawn to a model of one-nation Toryism and the Renuas of this world exceed that to the right by some distance.

Incidentally, don't confuse the current incarnation of the Tory party in Britain with true one-nation conservatism, the two have become almost mutually exclusive, consumed as the Tories are with selfish aims and internal power struggles.

hill16bhoy

suicide_circus wrote: »

i think a big element to modern conservatism is a resistance to throwing the baby out with bathwater when it comes to reforms - yes we need to fix things but we get a lot of things right too and just because an idea is old dosnt mean its bad, quite the reverse in some cases.

Interesting that in a post designed to big up "conservatism" you actually admit that society needs further liberal reforms.

I wouldn't argue with that.

suicide_circus

hill16bhoy wrote: »

Interesting that in a post designed to big up "conservatism" you actually admit that society needs further liberal reforms.

I wouldn't argue with that.

yeah, you really haven't scored the devastating point you think you have there. i never said anyhting about "liberal reforms" but yes we must make constant improvements while conserving the traditional values and ideas which have allowed us to get this far and be so succeasful.

Eric Cartman

hill16bhoy wrote: »

No parent is going to make a boy who doesn't want to dress as a girl do so.

The whole point of gender neutral uniforms is to allow children who are experiencing gender identity issues to wear the variation of uniform they feel most comfortable with.

That's unquestionably a good thing.

28 years ago girls in my primary school class asked if they could wear trousers instead of skirts on cold winter mornings - they were laughed out of it by the principal. Girls were to wear skirts and that was that.

It's good that we've moved on from that sort of authoritarian nonsense.

Society came to terms with the idea of girls wanting to wear trousers years ago. Why should there be any difference between that and children who are experiencing gender identity issues, or indeed boys who identify as boys, wanting to wear skirts?

Clothes are just pieces of cloth anyway, they don't have a gender. The Romans wore skirts. Scottish rugby fans wear skirts. Catholic priests wear dresses.

Let people wear what they want to wear and feck the miserable begrudgers, it's none of their business whatsoever and it isn't harming them or harming anybody else in any way.

Bullying in school often happens because children are brought up with backward opinions. Telling people they can't do something because other people have backward opinions is a bully's charter. Sure keep homosexuality underground because gay people need to be protected for their own good, or something something. Utter nonsense. People with backward opinions don't have a right to be protected and cocooned from other people living their lives the way they want to.

Your uncomfortableness with people wearing what they want is irrelevant.

Earlier on I asked you what "extreme liberalism" is, and what you foresaw Ireland "returning to" in terms of it becoming more conservative.

Like, would we overturn the our pro-choice laws, our divorce laws, our same sex marriage laws, would we return to having something like the marriage bar in the public service etc.

It would be really good to get some flesh on the bones of this more conservative Ireland you predict will emerge.

There are many cases where parents who see it as a trend or a statement have forced this.

I do not believe for one second that a primary school child can be coherently experiencing gender identity issues and it should not be tolerated to a degree where you have a school policy supporting it at that age.

girls wearing trousers in the cold is a comfort issue and doesn't make them different or express anything about them being different to the other children. A boy wearing a dress does and we all know that.

A transgener 5 year old is like a vegan cat, its not a choice they made themselves.

AndrewJRenko

Eric Cartman wrote: »

There are many cases where parents who see it as a trend or a statement have forced this.

I do not believe for one second that a primary school child can be coherently experiencing gender identity issues and it should not be tolerated to a degree where you have a school policy supporting it at that age.

Would you like to share details of how many transgender people you've spoken to as you were building your opinion on this?

Eric Cartman wrote: »

girls wearing trousers in the cold is a comfort issue and doesn't make them different or express anything about them being different to the other children. A boy wearing a dress does and we all know that.

.

Girls seem to wear trousers for lots of reasons beyond comfort. It's almost as if the type of clothing worn by genders evolves over time, like the way that Irish boys used to wear skirts all the time.



From http://www.maggieblanck.com/Mayopages/People.html





What particular difficulty does it cause for you if a primary school boy chooses to wear a skirt?

hill16bhoy

suicide_circus wrote: »

yeah, you really haven't scored the devastating point you think you have there. i never said anyhting about "liberal reforms" but yes we must make constant improvements while conserving the traditional values and ideas which have allowed us to get this far and be so succeasful.

You said "we need to fix things" and the clear implication was that the "fixing things" would be in a more liberal direction.

Now you say we "need to make constant improvements".

Perhaps you could flesh out the "things that need to be fixed" and the "constant improvements" you're calling for?

I'm just interested, is all.