Where are the conservatives in Ireland?

Snake Plisken

rossie1977 wrote: »

China have a left wing government and its one of the hardest countries on earth to immigrate to. You don't see North Korea/Cuba or other extreme left wing nations allowing mass migration into their countries.

Merkel a conservative is the person most on the right blame for the European migration crisis.



Far right parties gaining popularity in Spain, Austria, Italy, Germany, Sweden. I guess those that learn nothing from history are doomed to repeat it

All countries that Merkel's open borders policies have directly affected! Ordinary citizens in these countries are getting fed up! She will be remembered for doing a lot of damage to Europe! I'll always remember the clip of her throwing away the German flag when handed to her at an event, not something I would be happy to see if I was a German citizen!

Tell me how

Snake Plisken wrote: »

All countries that Merkel's open borders policies have directly affected! Ordinary citizens in these countries are getting fed up! She will be remembered for doing a lot of damage to Europe! I'll always remember the clip of her throwing away the German flag when handed to her at an event, not something I would be happy to see if I was a German citizen!

It is common to not wave German flags at political events because it is seen as overtly nationalist. It is not just Merkel who adheres to this. Also, she didn't throw it away, she handed to someone off stage.

As she said herself, "we will find out what we truly learned from WW2 when all those who remember it are gone".
The rise and rhetoric of many of the right wing groups reflect similar rises in Germany and Italy 80 years ago.

Jim2007

Snake Plisken wrote: »

All countries that Merkel's open borders policies have directly affected! Ordinary citizens in these countries are getting fed up! She will be remembered for doing a lot of damage to Europe! I'll always remember the clip of her throwing away the German flag when handed to her at an event, not something I would be happy to see if I was a German citizen!

You obviously have your own agenda... and you are entitled to it...

But it is not customary to wave German flags at political events nor did she throw it away.

Merkel is well respected throughout the EU and support for the EU has grown over the past few years.

Now back to real discussion, and leave you to your agenda.

briany

Tell me how wrote: »

It is common to not wave German flags at political events because it is seen as overtly nationalist. It is not just Merkel who adheres to this. Also, she didn't throw it away, she handed to someone off stage.

As she said herself, "we will find out what we truly learned from WW2 when all those who remember it are gone".
The rise and rhetoric of many of the right wing groups reflect similar rises in Germany and Italy 80 years ago.

To be cynical about it, we probably haven't learned a thing from WW2 when you take Merkel's stipulation. We didn't learn enough from the countless wars preceding WW2 not to repeat the same types of atrocities over and over again, so why would WW2 be any different?

People are open to the same kind of fear-mongering and rhetoric that they ever were, and I think the only thing that shocks them out of it is when it goes from words to actions, on a wide scale, and they have to own up to the savagery and the violence.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

rossie1977 wrote: »

China have a left wing government and its one of the hardest countries on earth to immigrate to. You don't see North Korea/Cuba or other extreme left wing nations allowing mass migration into their countries.

Merkel a conservative is the person most on the right blame for the European migration crisis.



Far right parties gaining popularity in Spain, Austria, Italy, Germany, Sweden. I guess those that learn nothing from history are doomed to repeat it

Liberal/conservative is not the same as left/right.

Kermit.de.frog

I think the clock is ticking on serious right wing governments emerging on the continent for sure in the next 10 years.


But I think Ireland is well behind on that trend for now.

Blueshoe

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I think the clock is ticking on serious right wing governments emerging on the continent for sure in the next 10 years.


But I think Ireland is well behind on that trend for now.

One can only hope we catch up some day

Tell me how

Blueshoe wrote: »

One can only hope we catch up some day

Can you point to what you think is a right wing government which you think you would like to see replicated in Ireland?

rogue-entity

Blueshoe wrote: »

Ireland is generally a liberal country. We recently voted to allow same sex marriage for example.
Why are we happy to allow Muslims to live here?

I believe you answered your own question.

Blueshoe wrote: »

An do you think that they were great times. Let's pretend we are progressive yet invite in people with beliefs from the dark ages.

The Irish Constitution grants freedom of religious practice, and also prohibits discrimination on the grounds of religious belief. Immigration officials do not ask your religion when you're seeking to enter the country and I am unaware of any policy of the Irish Government, to expressly invite individuals professing a Muslim faith, to Ireland.

See Article 44.2:
1° Freedom of conscience and the free profession and practice of religion are, subject to public order and morality, guaranteed to every citizen.

2° The State guarantees not to endow any religion.

3° The State shall not impose any disabilities or make any discrimination on the ground of religious profession, belief or status.

Blueshoe wrote: »

I actually think that most of you on the left are nice welcoming people who see the best in people and believe we can all hold hands and get along but your failings are shortsightedness and gullibility.

With respect, that's tarring a large group of folks with the same brush, and ironically, is one of the arguments many folks with a conservative and/or right-wing viewpoint accuse 'the left' of doing to them. While there are no doubt folks of a left-leaning view that fall into that category to say that all of us do is to assist in the same kind of 'us or them' attitudes that maintain a division.

Blueshoe wrote: »

We can't all get along because we are not the same in views, religious beliefs, culture, history and attitude.

The irony is that you're directing this statement at a particular group of people, adherents of Islam, while the people within our own democratic society can't all get along because we are not the same in views, religious beliefs, history* and attitude. (For a rather apt example, just look at our neighbours in the UK)

Blueshoe wrote: »

Very few left leaning people agree with mass immigration?
Pull the other one.

I'm left-leaning and am not in favour of "mass immigration".

Blueshoe wrote: »

Hungary or Poland would be anti immigration governments and we all see the grief the Hungarian government gets.

I believe the grief the Hungarian government gets isn't for being anti-immigration in and of itself but for the type of individual that Mr Orban is, his expressed views and the actions of his government.

Snake Plisken wrote: »

On the subject of politics I think it's refreshing to see Vox go from under 50K voting for them in 2016 to getting 2.6M votes last weekend...

From what I had heard, much of those gains came from voters motivated by the events that happened in Catalonia as one of Vox's points was to curtail regional autonomy along with a 'return to traditional Spanish values'. It saddens me that a regressive homophobic party would make significant gains, the antitheses of a modern liberal society.

rossie1977 wrote: »

Far right parties gaining popularity in Spain, Austria, Italy, Germany, Sweden. I guess those that learn nothing from history are doomed to repeat it

History never repeats itself but it often rhymes.

Pkiernan

Tell me how wrote: »

Can you point to what you think is a right wing government which you think you would like to see replicated in Ireland?

A Thatcherite government that rewards hard work instead of bone idleness would be a good start.

Tell me how

Pkiernan wrote: »

A Thatcherite government that rewards hard work instead of bone idleness would be a good start.

The hard working miners might beg to differ, plus those who fear excessive privatisation is effectively stripping a nations assets and selling them for parts.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Pkiernan wrote: »

A Thatcherite government that rewards hard work instead of bone idleness would be a good start.

..with a poll-tax?

Pkiernan

Pkiernan wrote: »

A Thatcherite government that rewards hard work instead of bone idleness would be a good start.

Plenty of hard working miners would disagree with you, the woman was a ****.

hill16bhoy

Pkiernan wrote: »

A Thatcherite government that rewards hard work instead of bone idleness would be a good start.

That sounds like a call for open borders

I thought you didn't want that

Inquitus

Is this the new Yaxley Lennon thread in disguise after the last one got shut down? We seem to have the same gamut of xenophonia, homophobia and outright racism

Inquitus

Inquitus wrote: »

Is this the new Yaxley Lennon thread in disguise after the last one got shut down? We seem to have the same gamut of xenophonia, homophobia and outright racism

Ah just the standard bs from them.

rossie1977

Blueshoe wrote: »

How is me personally knowing any Muslims relevant?

Are you going to say that Islam is a modern religion whos followers beliefs are a good fit for a modern progressive Ireland?
Or that Islamic extremism does not exist?
Or Islam is pro gay and women's rights?

Or that Muslims will integrate in Ireland even though we see division and violence throughout Europe. Ireland will be different for some reason

We see violence/crime usually where people are thrown into ghettos and forgotten about regardless of race or religion. We have seen it in Ireland among the native population in places like Ballymun, Moyross, Battery heights in Athlone.

Fact is there were almost 600 people who identified as Muslim in Ballyhaunis, a town of about 2,000 during last census. Ballyhaunis hasn't had riots or bombings or any major increase in crime compared to similar sized towns within same region.

As for integration yes it's possible https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/gaa/mayo-youngster-akram-hoping-to-push-new-boundaries-in-2019-season-894300.html

Pkiernan wrote: »

A Thatcherite government that rewards hard work instead of bone idleness would be a good start.

Ask someone who lived north of Birmingham during Thatcher's reign how life was. My uncle brought me all around Manchester in the mid 1990s showing the absolute desolation her government left in that city.

Timberrrrrrrr

Inquitus wrote: »

Is this the new Yaxley Lennon thread in disguise after the last one got shut down? We seem to have the same gamut of xenophonia, homophobia and outright racism

They migrate to other threads:D

Brian?

Pkiernan wrote: »

A Thatcherite government that rewards hard work instead of bone idleness would be a good start.

The Thatcher government destroyed working class Britain and rewarded the financial services industry. This delusion that only conservatives believe in rewarding hard work constantly bamboozles me. You can reward hard work while maintaining a basic standard of living for everyone.

James Brown

pablojml wrote: »

I'm not very familiar with the political parties of Ireland, and would like to ask where or which are the conservative parties in Ireland, not the fake ones, I mean the real conservatives who are for core family values, there are only two genders, a family is a man a woman and children, homosexuality is not a normal lifestyle and can be overcome (not hating it but not promoting it), safe borders, controlled immigration and not massive influx of ilegal immigration, parents are the main educators of children not schools, abortion means killing a baby, rights come from God and not men, not being driven by emotios but by logic, etc etc. Are they extinct? I am finding it really hard to find a political party with such great values. Are there any groups that anyone can join? Regards to all.

I don't think in the history of mankind there has ever been a party, conservative or otherwise as you describe.
The US has the Republicans, who will say they have such 'values' but have shown to be fake.
Then of course we have to look at what those values mean. Is there a defined definition? Depends on who you talk to.
Based on the above the Catholic Church of the 1950's and earlier would have fit the bill.
The ironic thing is though that people and groups who claim to be christian or for family values have so far shown themselves to be frauds.
Where is the God loves everyone equally, family values of criminalising love between two people or telling a woman what to do with her pregnancy based on a bible of all things, (a mish mash of stories coloured to fit an agenda)? Where is the welcome for immigrants fleeing peril? 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you'? ' whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.'? Joseph and Mary were immigrants, if you believe the bible and such.
In short, IMO, a true conservative, as you describe above cannot be also a true Christian, nor have values.

The closest we have to political conservatives are Fine Gael. They put business above society and don't care for the working tax payer beyond trying to cadge votes. You can't get more conservative than that IMO.

The clear cut Left/Right thing is a myth. I think everyone is on board with vetting immigrants. The idea people just waltz in is a yarn perpetrated by the far right elements and easily led disgruntled center right voters looking for people to blame outside of elected policy makers, because god forbid 'the others' get it.

Eric Cartman

Sadly Ireland has no right , in the sense of financial conservatism. Unfortunately often any attempt to start a party or movement like that gets bogged down when a candidate gets too vocal on a divisive social issue like abortion.

Jim2007

Pkiernan wrote: »

A Thatcherite government that rewards hard work instead of bone idleness would be a good start.

You might want to try studying the economics of the Thatcher years and get back to us with evidence of how she rewarded hard work....

Thatcher's legacy is the she oversaw the dismantling of British industry and as a result the UK has not produced a positive balance on trade in over 30 years. Vast parts of the country has been decimated as a result of her policies, that is how much she rewarded the hardworking citizens of her country.

The Late Late Show

We do not need these values in Ireland. It seems that this is a dream society for some:



And before one thinks this is just a very good but fictional TV series, handmaid-type status was once part of conservative Ireland. They were called Magdalenes.

Eric Cartman

The Late Late Show wrote: »

We do not need these values in Ireland. It seems that this is a dream society for some:



And before one thinks this is just a very good but fictional TV series, handmaid-type status was once part of conservative Ireland. They were called Magdalenes.

I really think people need to edcuate themselves on the massive difference between theocratic religious control and influence over a society and political conservatism / financially conservative right wing politics.

You can have plenty of right wing parties that in no way infringe on womens rights as you can equally have left wing authoritarianism subjugate women.

Brian?

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I really think people need to edcuate themselves on the massive difference between theocratic religious control and influence over a society and political conservatism / financially conservative right wing politics.

You can have plenty of right wing parties that in no way infringe on womens rights as you can equally have left wing authoritarianism subjugate women.

What the OP describes is no political conservatism, you should know that as well as anyone.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Sadly Ireland has no right , in the sense of financial conservatism. Unfortunately often any attempt to start a party or movement like that gets bogged down when a candidate gets too vocal on a divisive social issue like abortion.

Of course Ireland has a right. It cant have a left if it doesn't have a right in the same way day can;t exists without night.

What you might be trying to say is that Ireland has no conservatism.

Tell me how

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Of course Ireland has a right. It cant have a left if it doesn't have a right in the same way day can;t exists without night.

What you might be trying to say is that Ireland has no conservatism.

Ireland has a conservative element.

62% voted for same sex marriage, indicating 38% who were not in favour.
66% voted to repeal the 8th, indicating 34% who were not in favour.
While I obviously do not have definitive proof, I would not be surprised if the people who voted against each referendum were from the same group.

By this rational, you could argue that circa 35% of people in Ireland are still somewhat conservative.

We are becoming more liberal in a democratic society and so the results of such votes lead to some saying their is no conservatism, or their voices are always shouted down. That is not the case. We are still lukcy enough to live in an open engaged country with lots of public conversation and frequent elections at every level. There is a conservative element in Ireland, it is just being outnumbered currently.

The Late Late Show

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I really think people need to edcuate themselves on the massive difference between theocratic religious control and influence over a society and political conservatism / financially conservative right wing politics.

You can have plenty of right wing parties that in no way infringe on womens rights as you can equally have left wing authoritarianism subjugate women.

Well aware of that. These religious extremist types are better termed radicals and they are often pro-massive backwards change which is not conservatism at all.

I know The Handmaid's Tale was partly based on the Ceausescu regime's policies, so that's a misogynist leftwing regime. Terms like left and right are I find confusing. Moderate and hardline may be better terms? Moderate left and right v hardliner left and right?

James Brown

The Late Late Show wrote: »

Well aware of that. These religious extremist types are better termed radicals and they are often pro-massive backwards change which is not conservatism at all.

I know The Handmaid's Tale was partly based on the Ceausescu regime's policies, so that's a misogynist leftwing regime. Terms like left and right are I find confusing. Moderate and hardline may be better terms? Moderate left and right v hardliner left and right?

It might clear things up. Some think everything 'good' in society belongs from their preferred side and everything 'bad' to the other, regardless of who is in government oddly enough.

Snake Plisken

Tell me how wrote: »

Ireland has a conservative element.

62% voted for same sex marriage, indicating 38% who were not in favour.
66% voted to repeal the 8th, indicating 34% who were not in favour.
While I obviously do not have definitive proof, I would not be surprised if the people who voted against each referendum were from the same group.

By this rational, you could argue that circa 35% of people in Ireland are still somewhat conservative.

We are becoming more liberal in a democratic society and so the results of such votes lead to some saying their is no conservatism, or their voices are always shouted down. That is not the case. We are still lukcy enough to live in an open engaged country with lots of public conversation and frequent elections at every level. There is a conservative element in Ireland, it is just being outnumbered currently.

Would a big part of the conservative demographic be made up of the older generation here?
Tim Poole had an interesting take on the censorship of conservative views on the various social media platforms in that your typical American conservatives are made up of older generations who get their news from TV and Newspapers whereas the younger generations all use Facebook Twitter YouTube for their news feeds. But if conservative voices are being silenced on these platforms then potentially their ability to influence the US elections and elsewhere will increase in years to come.