Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

James Brown · 11-01-2019 5:51pm

Tell me how wrote: »

Red bolded part. But no one has countered the figure. Phil Ni Sheaghdha, secretary of the INMO didn't do so and therefore I assume it is true.

If it is, what do you think? If you can point me to a reputable source showing that this average is not true then I will gladly read that.

As for the black bolded part. I do not agree with that either but we cannot just pay money to one group which will have to be found every year, will lead to similar demands from other groups and without targetting the inefficiencies in the system to ensure they do not feel overworked and so must leave. Money will not make someone stay in a job if they truly hate it.

Blue bolded part. Yes, such an opinion is not helpful to the discussion.

It's an average. It it were an average of all 3 year nurses okay, an average of all six year career nurses, okay. If Denis O'Brien moved in next door to me my streets average income would sky rocket.
I can only add MY opinion to the discussion. I don't believe the average Nurse gets 52K a year.
If they do, for standard work week of under 40 hours, I think that's a great salary and anyone should be happy with it.
As regards striking, they have every right and have my 100% support. Inferring they are being greedy is unfair. Likely it's about doing your job comfortably. Otherwise we'd all be doing whatever paid the most for a living.
The power to suspend ones labour is all most of us have and I support that right similarly with the right to protest. When the game is rigged like ours, (see FF/FG) you have to have some recourse.
It genuinely disgusts me to hear the likes of Leo, (where are you wheels?) talk about time off as a distraction. If only politicians did same regarding bailouts and AIB not having to pay tax on profits for 30 years or so. They don't appear in the paper stirring on them.

Crock Rock · 11-01-2019 5:51pm

Irish nurses are already massively overpaid.
If they get it, teachers (who are also overpaid) will be next.
Say no to benchmarking.

Dia1988 · 11-01-2019 5:54pm

Crock Rock wrote: »

Irish nurses are already massively overpaid.
If they get it, teachers (who are also overpaid) will be next.
Say no to benchmarking.

Thank you for signing up to boards just to post that very controversial comment.

Teachers aren't overpaid nurses are

circadian · 11-01-2019 5:56pm

Crock Rock wrote: »

Irish nurses are already massively overpaid.
If they get it, teachers (who are also overpaid) will be next.
Say no to benchmarking.

Straight out of the traps with that one.

Crock Rock · 11-01-2019 6:03pm

Dia1988 wrote: »

Thank you for signing up to boards just to post that very controversial comment.

Teachers aren't overpaid nurses are

€47,000 after 9 years service.
18 weeks annual leave.
No performance reviews.
No disciplinary action for under performance.
Short working day.
Go figure!

Before anyone asks me why I amn't a teacher if it's so good my degree in physics and chemistry (Level 8 honours btw) isn't approved by the teaching council for some reason.

BTW, everyone has a first post.
What do you think a fist post should be? Who are you to decide?

noodler · 11-01-2019 6:06pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

It's an average. It it were an average of all 3 year nurses okay, an average of all six year career nurses, okay. If Denis O'Brien moved in next door to me my streets average income would sky rocket.
I can only add MY opinion to the discussion. I don't believe the average Nurse gets 52K a year.
If they do, for standard work week of under 40 hours, I think that's a great salary and anyone should be happy with it.
As regards striking, they have every right and have my 100% support. Inferring they are being greedy is unfair. Likely it's about doing your job comfortably. Otherwise we'd all be doing whatever paid the most for a living.
The power to suspend ones labour is all most of us have and I support that right similarly with the right to protest. When the game is rigged like ours, (see FF/FG) you have to have some recourse.
It genuinely disgusts me to hear the likes of Leo, (where are you wheels?) talk about time off as a distraction. If only politicians did same regarding bailouts and AIB not having to pay tax on profits for 30 years or so. They don't appear in the paper stirring on them.

Wow.

We are talking about an average amongst nurses though.

A perfectly relevant average without a y millionaires in there.

Dia1988 · 11-01-2019 6:07pm

Crock Rock wrote: »

€47,000 after 9 years service.
18 weeks annual leave.
No performance reviews.
No disciplinary action for under performance.
Short working day.
Go figure!

Before anyone asks me why I amn't a teacher if it's so good my degree in physics and chemistry (Level 8 honours btw) isn't approved by the teaching council for some reason.

BTW, everyone has a first post.
What do you think a fist post should be? Who are you to decide?

47k is not great these days, especially after tax!

Have you a chip on your shoulder?

road_high · 11-01-2019 6:09pm

Varta wrote: »

I think you need to take that up with those public servants at that time, to be fair.

But we’re still picking up the tab- many if them are still in the PS.

road_high · 11-01-2019 6:11pm

Dia1988 wrote: »

47k is not great these days, especially after tax!

Have you a chip on your shoulder?

Lots of people on far less. With degrees and experience. I think you may have a distorted view of what is good or bad salary wise

storker · 11-01-2019 6:18pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

No they don`t deserve a pay rise, they deserve a massive pay cut and half of them should be sacked. It would be a good idea to cut their pay first before sacking them to reduce the redundancy costs. Speaking of redundancy payments, what a rediculous notion! They got their weekly wages when they were working, whats with this lump sum giveaways of taxpayers money for nothing? One has to laugh at this suggestion the nurses are leaving the HSE. The HSE is too imcompetent to recruit and they don`t know how to run a health service, simple as that. Besides, in order to cut spending, we want the nurses to leave and if they go of their own volition, Great! No redundancy for them.

storker · 11-01-2019 6:21pm

mariaalice wrote: »

That is the big issue the counter claims from other public servants.

That's where the government needs to show some cojones and treat each pay claim on its own merits rather than applying the unacceptable consequence fallacy. The correct answer to anyone wanting a pay rise "because the nurses got one" is "feel free to change careers then".

mariaalice · 11-01-2019 6:23pm

road_high wrote: »

Lots of people on far less. With degrees and experience. I think you may have a distorted view of what is good or bad salary wise

That an important good pay is an entirely subjective opinion.

Went to college and did commerce followed by becoming an accountant now on 75/90k thinks nurses are badly paid.

Other person on 28k knows its never really going to get any better than that for them, think nurses are very well paid.

chrissb8 · 11-01-2019 6:32pm

backspin. wrote: »

I think they are paid reasonably well as it is. There is a pay agreement in place at the moment anyway.

No they're really not. Ask any Irish nurse working in the NHS and you would realise how bad Irish nurses have it. Not just all about money, as these things rarely are. It's about getting paid the right amount for all the s**t they have to take. Which is alot in the case of nurses.

High stress job, high emotionally toiling job, multiple thankless tasks going unnoticed. They deserve to be paid well. We all know this. We have all been in hospitals and have seen the work they put in and most if not all, always go that extra mile. In a world where if you sit on your todd in an office whiling the hours away downing tea, I think a nurse can be paid a comparable wage.

James Brown · 11-01-2019 6:35pm

noodler wrote: »

Wow.

We are talking about an average amongst nurses though.

A perfectly relevant average without a y millionaires in there.

Are we? I don't know that.
Nurses are not public representatives. They are not answerable for anyones issues with the HSE.

hawkelady · 11-01-2019 6:49pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Are we? I don't know that.
Nurses are not public representatives. They are not answerable for anyones issues with the HSE.

They are answerable if they make one mistake , can be sued and lose their career ... lots of responsibility on their shoulders every single minute they clock in

Tell me how · 11-01-2019 6:51pm

chrissb8 wrote: »

No they're really not. Ask any Irish nurse working in the NHS and you would realise how bad Irish nurses have it. Not just all about money, as these things rarely are. It's about getting paid the right amount for all the s**t they have to take. Which is alot in the case of nurses.

High stress job, high emotionally toiling job, multiple thankless tasks going unnoticed. They deserve to be paid well. We all know this. We have all been in hospitals and have seen the work they put in and most if not all, always go that extra mile. In a world where if you sit on your todd in an office whiling the hours away downing tea, I think a nurse can be paid a comparable wage.

This is absolutely categorically the wrong approach in my view.

If there are problems in the system, the nurses themselves should be advocating for change.

Money will not make someone stay eternally. It will quieten the complaining for a period but that money becomes the new norm and within a few short years it is forgotten and all the while the problems exist and the exchequer is paying x amount more.

As for being paid a comparable rate to someone sitting in an office drinking the tea whiling the hours away. To pay nurses comparably would be to cut their wages.

Varta · 11-01-2019 6:56pm

Dia1988 wrote: »

47k is not great these days, especially after tax!

Have you a chip on your shoulder?

But it's good enough for nurses?

Have you a chip on your shoulder?

hawkelady · 11-01-2019 7:00pm

Varta wrote: »

But it's good enough for nurses?

Have you a chip on your shoulder?

Wouldn’t even entertain her as she comes across as a bitter and sour. Pityful really

Twenty Grand · 11-01-2019 7:21pm

Dia1988 wrote: »

Here's a good description.
In reality nurses are on Facebook.

Jeez you're bitter.

Boring day in the guidance councillor office?

Dia1988 · 11-01-2019 7:21pm

hawkelady wrote: »

Wouldn’t even entertain her as she comes across as a bitter and sour. Pityful really

I beg your pardon?

Dia1988 · 11-01-2019 7:36pm

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Jeez you're bitter.

Boring day in the guidance councillor office?

Get off line, you are hell bent on creating tension within this thread!

Fann Linn · 11-01-2019 7:36pm

storker wrote: »

That's where the government needs to show some cojones and treat each pay claim on its own merits rather than applying the unacceptable consequence fallacy. The correct answer to anyone wanting a pay rise "because the nurses got one" is "feel free to change careers then".

I'd say a lot of unions and hardline union members would be happy with individual pay claims. For example, bus drivers looking for a rise and picketing train stations because buses park there and then the train drivers refuse to pass that picket in sympathy. And go back to the hospital scenario, clerical officers seek a payrise, and go on strike and then nurses and clinical staff refuse to answer phones or do admin work because that's clerical work.

It actually suits govt to have collective bargaining. Where it fell apart was when they found 80,000,000 for the Gardai.

noodler · 11-01-2019 7:38pm

storker wrote: »

That's where the government needs to show some cojones and treat each pay claim on its own merits rather than applying the unacceptable consequence fallacy. The correct answer to anyone wanting a pay rise "because the nurses got one" is "feel free to change careers then".

Why?

Why one third of the PS and not the rest?

Nurses have gotten multiple pay increases per year (including increments) since 2016 just like the rest of the PS. Getting more this year too.

James Brown · 11-01-2019 7:55pm

hawkelady wrote: »

They are answerable if they make one mistake , can be sued and lose their career ... lots of responsibility on their shoulders every single minute they clock in

You misunderstood. I'm saying Nurses shouldn't bare the blame anyone may have against how the HSE operates. Folk seem to have a hate on for Nurses based on the level of dissatisfaction with the HSE.
It was Nurses calling attention to the trolley scandal had Varadkar counter with them taking time off etc.

road_high · 11-01-2019 7:57pm

noodler wrote: »

Why?

Why one third of the PS and not the rest?

Nurses have gotten multiple pay increases per year (including increments) since 2016 just like the rest of the PS. Getting more this year too.

They’re on track to bankrupt the country- after 2008 there was some scope to increase taxes as they had been relatively low up to that point.
This time round it’s very different with the USC still sadled on workers and extra taxation elsewhere, very little scope exists if and when we hit a downturn. Then we are going to be in very dire straits, pulled under servicing unaffordable pay levels. The sad thing is no public “servants” appear to give a rats ass how, who what we are going to pay for all this with.

4ensic15 · 11-01-2019 8:03pm

road_high wrote: »

They’re on track to bankrupt the country- after 2008 there was some scope to increase taxes as they had been relatively low up to that point.
This time round it’s very different with the USC still sadled on workers and extra taxation elsewhere, very little scope exists if and when we hit a downturn. Then we are going to be in very dire straits, pulled under servicing unaffordable pay levels. The sad thing is no public “servants” appear to give a rats ass how, who what we are going to pay for all this with.

This row is all about conditions. there are plenty of well qualified people who work for low pay such as librarians and college lecturers. They want to do the job and if the drop out there are numerous others to take their place. This is not happening in the medical professions in Ireland. Working in overcrowded and understaffed conditions is demoralising to the point people are leaving the country to do the same jobs in better conditions and in many cases for more money. It matters not a damn how broke the country is if we want a health service we have to pay for it.

Tell me how · 11-01-2019 8:05pm

4ensic15 wrote: »

This row is all about conditions. there are plenty of well qualified people who work for low pay such as librarians and college lecturers. They want to do the job and if the drop out there are numerous others to take their place. This is not happening in the medical professions in Ireland. Working in overcrowded and understaffed conditions is demoralising to the point people are leaving the country to do the same jobs in better conditions and in many cases for more money. It matters not a damn how broke the country is if we want a health service we have to pay for it.

If the row is about conditions, they should be striking about conditions.

Getting better paid and leaving everything the same is masking the problem.

4ensic15 · 11-01-2019 8:06pm

Tell me how wrote: »

If the row is about conditions, they should be striking about conditions.

Getting better paid and leaving everything the same is masking the problem.

If the pay improves it might lead to an improvement in conditions. Fewer people might leave the profession or emigrate.

Sunflower 27 · 11-01-2019 8:08pm

Not sure if this has been posted, by you can find nurse pay by clicking on this link, go to consolidated pay scale 2018 and page 11 lists pay for nurses.

https://www.hse.ie/eng/staff/benefitsservices/pay/

road_high · 11-01-2019 8:13pm

4ensic15 wrote: »

This row is all about conditions. there are plenty of well qualified people who work for low pay such as librarians and college lecturers. They want to do the job and if the drop out there are numerous others to take their place. This is not happening in the medical professions in Ireland. Working in overcrowded and understaffed conditions is demoralising to the point people are leaving the country to do the same jobs in better conditions and in many cases for more money. It matters not a damn how broke the country is if we want a health service we have to pay for it.

I have to laugh at the last sentence as it’s blows my mind on so many levels- stats show that our health service is in fact one of the best funded on a per capita basis- something very wrong with how we are spending the money and the value for money we are getting.
And if we are a busted flush as a nation then no amount of “if we want something we’ll have to pay for it...” intentions will work. If the money isn’t there and non one is willing to lend us money then the proverbial hits the fan

Dia1988 · 11-01-2019 8:16pm

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

Not sure if this has been posted, by you can find nurse pay by clicking on this link, go to consolidated pay scale 2018 and page 11 lists pay for nurses.

https://www.hse.ie/eng/staff/benefitsservices/pay/

that only list basic salary.

doesn't include the allowances that they exploit

Twenty Grand · 11-01-2019 8:31pm

Dia1988 wrote: »

that only list basic salary.

doesn't include the allowances that they exploit

Very salty.

Paulzx · 11-01-2019 8:35pm

Dia1988 wrote: »

that only list basic salary.

doesn't include the allowances that they exploit

What do you mean by exploit?

Sunflower 27 · 11-01-2019 8:42pm

Paulzx wrote: »

What do you mean by exploit?

I think he/she is talking about night/weekend allowances. How very dare they....

Twenty Grand · 11-01-2019 8:44pm

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

I think he/she is talking about night/weekend allowances. How very dare they....

How dare they take advantage of incentives!! :rolleyes:

4ensic15 · 11-01-2019 8:59pm

road_high wrote: »

I have to laugh at the last sentence as it’s blows my mind on so many levels- stats show that our health service is in fact one of the best funded on a per capita basis- something very wrong with how we are spending the money and the value for money we are getting.
And if we are a busted flush as a nation then no amount of “if we want something we’ll have to pay for it...” intentions will work. If the money isn’t there and non one is willing to lend us money then the proverbial hits the fan

The total amount of money going into the health service is high. The service level provided is low. It is clear that the budget is being hopelessly mismanaged.
There is no getting away from that fact that if a certain level of service is required it will have to be paid for and the people asked to do the work have to be given decent pay and conditions. It is ridiculous to expect people to put up with substandard pay and conditions.

Sunflower 27 · 11-01-2019 9:14pm

4ensic15 wrote: »

The total amount of money going into the health service is high. The service level provided is low. It is clear that the budget is being hopelessly being mismanaged.
There is no getting away from that fact that if a certain level of service is required it will have to be paid for and the people asked to do the work have to be given decent pay and conditions. It is ridiculous to expect people to put up with substandard pay and conditions.

Absolutely. Too top heavy with highly paid management positions. I work in a hospital. It's a joke!

Richard Hillman · 11-01-2019 9:22pm

Emergency Services should get tax exemptions. No USC or extra tax credits

alexmalalex · 11-01-2019 9:45pm

I said it yesterday, and I'll say it again... I believe the answer is some type of performance incentive linked to productivity i.e., you get X percent based on health-related outcomes, etc.

Dia1988 · 11-01-2019 9:50pm

alexmalalex wrote: »

I said it yesterday, and I'll say it again... I believe the answer is some type of performance incentive linked to productivity i.e., you get X percent based on health-related outcomes, etc.

So, every patient that dies under the nurses watch reduce their pay by say 1k?

Seems fair!

alexmalalex · 11-01-2019 9:56pm

Dia1988 wrote: »

So, every patient that dies under the nurses watch reduce their pay by say 1k?

Seems fair!

No, efficiency related outcomes, use of resources, etc.

Martina1991 · 11-01-2019 9:59pm

alexmalalex wrote:

No, efficiency related outcomes, use of resources, etc.

How would you do that. Every patients condition and treatment are different.
Do you get more money for looking after a more difficult patient?

Your idea doesn't make sense.

alexmalalex · 11-01-2019 10:05pm

Martina1991 wrote: »

How would you do that. Every patients condition and treatment are different.
Do you get more money for looking after a more difficult patient?

Your idea doesn't make sense.

No you get more money if you use less resources, and achieve faster throughput. Everyone can work more efficiently, and nurses are no exception

Clearly, patient health and safety are paramount, but there are more efficient ways to do things...keep things moving...use less resources...more efficient routines...two steps instead of three

Its the little things when they add up that make a difference

twowheelsonly · 11-01-2019 10:08pm

alexmalalex wrote: »

No, efficiency related outcomes, use of resources, etc.

Then they need to start at the top management levels.

What the HSE pays out on leases on buildings is absolutely ridiculous figures. I'd love to know the total but individual ones are crazy.

They pay (in 2017) €203,000 pa for the Castlerea Primary Health Care building, €328k for the Roscommon equivalent and €236k for the Longford equivalent. In Leitrim alone they have 13 buildings leased (albeit at smaller costs) That's just nuts.

This is the Castlerea building BTW.. Others mentioned are along the same lines.

http://https://www.google.ie/maps/uv?hl=en&pb=!1s0x485c1d9a829a864f:0x30ad4d4343d02ca5!2m22!2m2!1i80!2i80!3m1!2i20!16m16!1b1!2m2!1m1!1e1!2m2!1m1!1e3!2m2!1m1!1e5!2m2!1m1!1e4!2m2!1m1!1e6!3m1!7e115!4s/maps/place/castlerea%2Bprimary%2Bcare%2Bcentre/@53.7701758,-8.5049862,3a,75y,283.98h,90t/data%3D*213m4*211e1*213m2*211sDf28_aVDOMb1mLi5Ku361g*212e0*214m2*213m1*211s0x485c1d9a829a864f:0x30ad4d4343d02ca5!5scastlerea+primary+care+centre+-+Google+Search&imagekey=!1e2!2sDf28_aVDOMb1mLi5Ku361g&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwim-qr2z-bfAhV5SBUIHROfBRwQpx8wCnoECAUQBg

BTW: Houses in Castlerea would rent for 600 to 700 per month just for comparison purposes. Most commercial properties would also be a lot less than what they're paying for this place. Bear in mind that this scenario is repeated all over the country.

Sunflower 27 · 11-01-2019 10:11pm

twowheelsonly wrote: »

http://https://www.google.ie/maps/uv?hl=en&pb=!1s0x485c1d9a829a864f:0x30ad4d4343d02ca5!2m22!2m2!1i80!2i80!3m1!2i20!16m16!1b1!2m2!1m1!1e1!2m2!1m1!1e3!2m2!1m1!1e5!2m2!1m1!1e4!2m2!1m1!1e6!3m1!7e115!4s/maps/place/castlerea%2Bprimary%2Bcare%2Bcentre/@53.7701758,-8.5049862,3a,75y,283.98h,90t/data%3D*213m4*211e1*213m2*211sDf28_aVDOMb1mLi5Ku361g*212e0*214m2*213m1*211s0x485c1d9a829a864f:0x30ad4d4343d02ca5!5scastlerea+primary+care+centre+-+Google+Search&imagekey=!1e2!2sDf28_aVDOMb1mLi5Ku361g&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwim-qr2z-bfAhV5SBUIHROfBRwQpx8wCnoECAUQBg

Couldn't have said it better

Geuze · 11-01-2019 10:29pm

4ensic15 wrote: »

This row is all about conditions. there are plenty of well qualified people who work for low pay such as librarians and college lecturers.

College lecturers are paid fairly well.

37k-84k.

4ensic15 · 11-01-2019 10:30pm

Geuze wrote: »

College lecturers are paid fairly well.

37k-84k.

A huge number are on temporary contracts and are at the foothills of the earnings mountain. A few long-established ones are at reasonable levels.

Martina1991 · 11-01-2019 10:39pm

alexmalalex wrote: »

No you get more money if you use less resources, and achieve faster throughput. Everyone can work more efficiently, and nurses are no exception

Clearly, patient health and safety are paramount, but there are more efficient ways to do things...keep things moving...use less resources...more efficient routines...two steps instead of three

Its the little things when they add up that make a difference

Cut back on what resources? Give me examples.
Some patients need scans, some need blood tests, some need a surgical consult, some require further investigation to determine what's wrong with them, some need to be monitored on medication to see if their condition improves.

You can't say to a patient "time's up, I've wasted too many resources on you. I have 10 more patients I need to get through tonight. NEXT".

alexmalalex · 11-01-2019 10:43pm

Martina1991 wrote: »

Cut back on what resources? Give me examples.
Some patients need scans, some need blood tests, some need a surgical consult, some require further investigation to determine what's wrong with them, some need to be monitored on medication to see if their condition improves.

You can't say to a patient "time's up, I've wasted too many resources on you. I have 10 more patients I need to get through tonight. NEXT".

Come on Martina, be somewhat reasonable...

How long does it take to wait on the results of a blood test at peak times? Could the patient be referred to GP if they are not having an MI or bleeding from the jugular...

Most people attending A&E are neither accident nor emergency. Nurses could play a role in making quicker assessments and getting throughput

They have similar knowledge to doctors...and an experience nurse probably has better intuitions than a doctor...

MaryBrosnan · 11-01-2019 10:46pm

alexmalalex wrote: »

I said it yesterday, and I'll say it again... I believe the answer is some type of performance incentive linked to productivity i.e., you get X percent based on health-related outcomes, etc.

Nonsensical post.

Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

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