Police shootings, vigilante shootings, and Black Lives Matter

AbusesToilets · 22-10-2020 12:27pm

Brian? wrote: »

Clarifying question. Do you believe black people commit more violent crime because they are black?

I think there is something wrong in black culture in the US that leads to more violence yes. What that is exactly, I don't know.

I don't think it's some intrinsic aspect of "blackness".

Brian? · 22-10-2020 1:39pm

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I think there is something wrong in black culture in the US that leads to more violence yes. What that is exactly, I don't know.

I don't think it's some intrinsic aspect of "blackness".

Ok. Clear.

And again, I agree. But I believe the institutionalised racism in the US is largely responsible for how this culture formed.

Foxtrol · 22-10-2020 6:14pm

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I see your gambit now, an interesting one to be sure. You make mention of poverty being linked to crime, as a way to play down the negative stats around it pertaining to blacks. When I call you on that, by noting the disparity across ethnic groups, you flip it and demand evidence of crime across all income levels to prove evidence of said disparity.

The evidence is perfectly clear with the statistics at hand. If there was nothing differentiating black people from other groups, then you'd expect them to account somewhere ~ 13% of violent crime, regardless of income level. That obviously isn't the case, so poverty alone doesn't account for it. There are more white people in absolute numbers living in poverty, almost twice as many as black people. Yet the numbers for crime don't track with that.

https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/40546247

I don't see you having provided any clear evidence at all.

The bold is just wrong. Per your own link a black person are nearly twice as likely to be below the poverty line than a similar white people so with just that point alone there is plenty that differentiates them - meaning you can look at the % of population and expect them to be involved in a corresponding % of crime.

You're also not comparing like with like regarding poverty and crime. Rural or suburban poor and poor in high density urban areas are very different and it shows in crime figures in the US and all around the world. In Irish terms it is like comparing a poor person in Donegal to one in flats in inner city Dublin, pressures and opportunities are completely different.

If there was a problem with 'black culture', as you claim, then you'd see significantly higher levels of crime at every income bracket, but you haven't been able to provide any evidence. All you've lazily done is point at crime rates in poor, high density areas and called it a 'black culture problem', while the same problem is faced with that type of housing all around the world no matter the race, including Ireland (which is why we got rid and don't build the likes of Ballymun flats anymore).

AbusesToilets · 22-10-2020 11:15pm

Foxtrol wrote: »

I don't see you having provided any clear evidence at all.

The bold is just wrong. Per your own link a black person are nearly twice as likely to be below the poverty line than a similar white people so with just that point alone there is plenty that differentiates them - meaning you can look at the % of population and expect them to be involved in a corresponding % of crime.

You're also not comparing like with like regarding poverty and crime. Rural or suburban poor and poor in high density urban areas are very different and it shows in crime figures in the US and all around the world. In Irish terms it is like comparing a poor person in Donegal to one in flats in inner city Dublin, pressures and opportunities are completely different.

If there was a problem with 'black culture', as you claim, then you'd see significantly higher levels of crime at every income bracket, but you haven't been able to provide any evidence. All you've lazily done is point at crime rates in poor, high density areas and called it a 'black culture problem', while the same problem is faced with that type of housing all around the world no matter the race, including Ireland (which is why we got rid and don't build the likes of Ballymun flats anymore).

I didn't realise black people were the only ones to live in cities. The poor white folks grubbing about in the boonies. So poverty is only a significant factor when it helps explain away black, but not when it highlights the comparative lack of crime across other demographics. Interesting.

Foxtrol · 23-10-2020 2:13pm

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I didn't realise black people were the only ones to live in cities. The poor white folks grubbing about in the boonies. So poverty is only a significant factor when it helps explain away black, but not when it highlights the comparative lack of crime across other demographics. Interesting.

Once again you're either ignoring or not even bothering to seek evidence before making claims.

In the US, ~42% of black people live in urban areas compared to only ~20% of white people living in urban areas.

Now in those urban areas, black people are nearly 4 times more likely than other racial group to live in neighborhoods where the poverty rate is 40% or higher.

Like every other country in the world, including Ireland, crime is more common in these poor urban areas. It is pretty simple but yet you'll continue to cling to 'black culture' issue without being able to provide any evidence at all to back it up.

Retr0gamer · 23-10-2020 4:45pm

Choosing to make up your own mind instead of looking up what the stats actually mean show is unscientific and something racists and right wingers love to do. Correlation does not imply causation but for these people it exists when it backs up their twisted world view.

As a professor I know once said, thinking you have found or know something the experts haven't considered is for the dangerously stupid.

AbusesToilets · 23-10-2020 5:55pm

Foxtrol wrote: »

Once again you're either ignoring or not even bothering to seek evidence before making claims.

In the US, ~42% of black people live in urban areas compared to only ~20% of white people living in urban areas.

Now in those urban areas, black people are nearly 4 times more likely than other racial group to live in neighborhoods where the poverty rate is 40% or higher.

Like every other country in the world, including Ireland, crime is more common in these poor urban areas. It is pretty simple but yet you'll continue to cling to 'black culture' issue without being able to provide any evidence at all to back it up.

https://www.brookings.edu/testimonies/the-changing-geography-of-us-poverty/

Characteristics of the Urban and Suburban Poor
The biggest difference between the urban and suburban poor populations in the nation’s largest metro areas lies in their racial and ethnic makeup. Non-Hispanic whites account for 44 percent of the poor population in suburbs, compared to just 24 percent in big cities. That gap largely reflects differences in the overall racial and ethnic composition of cities and suburbs, although that has been changing over time as people of color, including poor people of color, have suburbanized at a faster clip. Still, the poor white population remains the most suburbanized among major racial and ethnic groups: 70 percent of poor whites in the nation’s largest metro areas live in the suburbs compared to 52 percent of poor Asians, 47 percent of poor Hispanics, and 41 percent of poor African Americans.

The suburban poor are also more likely to own their own home than their urban counterparts (36 versus 20 percent, respectively). Notwithstanding those differences, the urban and suburban poor population is quite similar. Most poor families are working families (roughly two-thirds in both cities and suburbs). Similar shares of individuals have a disability (roughly 15 percent in both cases). The suburban poor skew slightly older—in part because poor seniors are slightly more suburbanized on average—but more than a third of the poor in both cities and suburbs are children. A striking share of the poor lives in deep poverty (less than half the federal poverty line) in both cities (46 percent) and suburbs (44 percent).4

Growing Concentrations of Poverty
Differences are less striking across the urban and suburban poor populations as a whole than they are across neighborhoods at different levels of poverty, regardless of where they are located. Poor neighborhoods tend to cluster disadvantages that create a drag on upward mobility and the long-term prospects of residents getting out of poverty over time.5

That is especially concerning because, after making gains in the 1990s toward de-concentrating poverty (i.e., reducing the number of very poor neighborhoods and the share of the poor living in them), the 2000s marked a rapid re-emergence of concentrated disadvantage, particularly in the post-recession period, that essentially erased earlier progress.6

The number of extremely poor neighborhoods (census tracts with poverty rates of 40 percent or more) in the United States more than doubled between 2000 and 2010-14, as did the share of poor residents living in them. While concentrated poverty (i.e., the share of poor residents living in extremely poor neighborhoods) historically has been a largely urban challenge, the fastest growing concentrations of poverty in the 2000s emerged beyond the urban core. Suburbs saw the number of poor residents living in distressed neighborhoods grow by 188 percent, ahead of small metro areas (172 percent), rural communities (103 percent), and cities (80 percent).

Urban residents remain disproportionately likely to live in areas of concentrated poverty: In 2010-14, cities posted a concentrated poverty rate of 25.5 percent, compared to 13.7 percent in small metro areas, and 7.1 percent in both suburbs and rural communities. But the pace of growth in concentrated disadvantage, and the rapid emergence of high-poverty neighborhoods, outside of city centers underscores the significant shifts and expansions the map of poverty in the United States has undergone in recent years, and the increasingly shared challenge it represents.

No matter what way you slice it, there are more white people in absolute numbers living in Urban / Suburban areas, and in poverty. If what you claim about poverty being chiefly responsible for crime rate, then the numbers would track accordingly and reflect the relative population distribution.

We can see that is clearly not the case.

Foxtrol · 23-10-2020 7:04pm

AbusesToilets wrote: »

https://www.brookings.edu/testimonies/the-changing-geography-of-us-poverty/

No matter what way you slice it, there are more white people in absolute numbers living in Urban / Suburban areas, and in poverty. If what you claim about poverty being chiefly responsible for crime rate, then the numbers would track accordingly and reflect the relative population distribution.

We can see that is clearly not the case.

Thanks for sharing a link that in the first few lines agrees with the point I made in my prior post.

The biggest difference between the urban and suburban poor populations in the nation’s largest metro areas lies in their racial and ethnic makeup. Non-Hispanic whites account for 44 percent of the poor population in suburbs, compared to just 24 percent in big cities.

As it shows there are not more poor white people living in urban areas. All across the world poor urban areas are where there is higher rates of crime, inner city Dublin for example has far far higher rates of crime than any poor suburb or poor rural area. The US situation tracks with the rest of the world.

Now what doesn't track is your claim that crime has something to do with 'black culture', as you'd be able to provide higher crime rates for black people at every income level.

AbusesToilets · 23-10-2020 8:39pm

Foxtrol wrote: »

Thanks for sharing a link that in the first few lines agrees with the point I made in my prior post.

As it shows there are not more poor white people living in urban areas. All across the world poor urban areas are where there is higher rates of crime, inner city Dublin for example has far far higher rates of crime than any poor suburb or poor rural area. The US situation tracks with the rest of the world.

Now what doesn't track is your claim that crime has something to do with 'black culture', as you'd be able to provide higher crime rates for black people at every income level.

http://www.ruralhome.org/storage/research_notes/rrn-race-and-ethnicity-web.pdf

This study from 2012, so a little out of date with respect to population numbers.

https://inequality.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/Pathways_SOTU_2017_poverty.pdf

I presume you can do the math.

Foxtrol · 23-10-2020 9:49pm

AbusesToilets wrote: »

http://www.ruralhome.org/storage/research_notes/rrn-race-and-ethnicity-web.pdf

This study from 2012, so a little out of date with respect to population numbers.

https://inequality.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/Pathways_SOTU_2017_poverty.pdf

I presume you can do the math.

Based on what you just posted it seems like you're having the same problem as you had earlier regarding making the wild assumption of an equal spread of a percentage across racial groups.

Is that what you are trying to imply by your question to do the math, as making that presumption is the only way to get to you claim?

Tell me how · 26-10-2020 2:42am

More evidence of some of the people behind riots this summer.

A self-proclaimed member of a violent anti-government group has been charged with rioting during the George Floyd protests in Minnesota.

Federal prosecutors said Ivan Hunter, a 26-year-old from Texas, opened fire on a Minneapolis police precinct to escalate the unrest back in May.

He was arrested in an FBI investigation into the Boogaloo Bois extremists.

Other far-right groups have also been suspected of trying to foment violence at recent racial justice protests.

Overheal · 27-10-2020 4:59pm

Another incident involving a white suspect that looks like if it were any black suspect would have been suicide by cop, here, the perp is allowed to shout "ill ****ing kill you" and approach an officer swinging a deadly weapon. No handgun is raised in response.

The officer used a billy club to de-escalate the encounter. It's like magic!

https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/jiveiz/weird_how_they_didnt_shoot_him/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

Overheal · 27-10-2020 6:47pm

Not a shooting etc. but just one of many power trips

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyh229Q3zkY

Threatens and then declares the man under arrest* for verbally defending a distressed woman in a police precinct. The officer tries to charge him with interfering with an investigation and when other officers get involved he makes an out of left field assertion that the woman is on narcotics.

*he's never actually cuffed, just tells the guy he's been arrested and then cites him and tries to get him to leave.

The culture is rotten. Fortunately when this altercation finally made the light of day the officer was terminated. The Sgt. et al seemed perfectly happy to let this happen.

Update: First, thank you all for your kind words. We're very lucky to have a radically progressive DA in SF who ran on police accountability and criminal reform. I spoke with several people from the DA's office a few months after this occurred and internal investigations were complete. All charges were dropped and my record wiped clean. As mentioned in the video, my address was incorrect on my citation and court date was written for February of 2019 - 10 months BEFORE I was arrested. To me it was just another attempt at inciting fear. I was able to keep my license and continue to practice as an SLP. He no longer works for the SFPD but that's all I know.

It is a freak occurrence that this man was there to help that woman out. The cops wanted to have her hauled off to a hospital for a psyche eval. She would have been out thousands of dollars because they don't know how to treat people like human beings or deescalate a situation.

Overheal · 30-10-2020 7:05pm

Daily Show has been putting together supercuts of its police brutality coverage going back years and years. Each one is enlightening to go back to watch. Some things have changed, most things have not. Some things I missed, eg. cops who crossfire each other they're so eager to shoot up a car.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Buv3Xp9dqI

Brian? · 02-11-2020 6:38am

This is an interesting read about political policing in North Carolina. Perfect example of systemic racism in the US.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/10/north-carolina-election-march-attack.html

Foxtrol · 02-11-2020 4:44pm

Trump supporters blocking highways and bridges in the New York area yesterday in some weird display of support. No videos of cops tear gassing, firing rubber bullets, or dragging them out of their cars.

Unsurprising but it will never stop being jarring when you see how quickly cops become aggressive towards black protesters or in protecting Trump supporters

https://twitter.com/Breaking911/status/1322957092412686343?s=20

https://twitter.com/davenewworld_2/status/1322996649430581248?s=20

Overheal · 02-11-2020 5:43pm

A man has been arrested twice for the muder of his first girlfriend, the first time he bonded out on state charges posted at $1M, then the feds charged him too to put him back in.

Witnesses say his ex girlfriend was murdered by a black man. The defendant is white.

The man was wearing blackface.

The federal allegation originated from the investigation into the local murder case. A man shot and stabbed Burkett outside the Greentree Apartment leasing office on October 2, according The Carrollton Leader. The victim’s coworkers tried to treat her at the scene, but she died. Witnesses described the killer as a black man. As you can see from the mugshot above, defendant Beard is a clearly white person, but investigators said that as part of their work, they discovered two bottles of liquid foundation makeup, partially burned wipes with brown residue, and a burned metal cylinder that was consistent with a makeup brush container.

According to the official account, Beard landed on the investigators’ radar early on because the victim’s then-boyfriend and a coworker both said that Burkett was afraid of the defendant, to the point she thought he might kill her. Also, the boyfriend said that she thought Beard was tracking her because the defendant always apparently knew her whereabouts.

Well, detectives said they found a tracking device under Burkett’s vehicle, and the boyfriend also found a similar one under his. Investigators marked out the boyfriend as a suspect, saying they were able to determine where he was during the murder. That left Beard, with whom Burkett was in a contentious custody battle. The victim had won custody of their 1-year-old daughter days before.

Cops found an apparently abandoned black Ford Expedition, which they traced to a September 26 vehicle sale to a what was described as a white man in a mask and baseball cap. That vehicle contained a dark prosthetic beard with apparent makeup on the inside, and a dark colored hair that seemed to have blood on it, authorities said.

An October 3 search of the defendant’s white F-150 allegedly turned up evidence including the aforementioned make up, and black boots, which were cut up and smelled like bleach.

Federal officials said that investigators also discovered a Spy Bot battery and another tracking device at the defendant’s home. The search also allegedly turned up a .22 caliber revolver, and a homemade gun silencer in a toolbox. This silencer lacked the required registration number that should be on the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record, authorities said.

https://lawandcrime.com/crazy/white-man-who-allegedly-disguised-himself-in-blackface-to-murder-ex-girlfriend-sent-back-to-jail/

Potatoeman · 02-11-2020 6:56pm

Foxtrol wrote: »

Trump supporters blocking highways and bridges in the New York area yesterday in some weird display of support. No videos of cops tear gassing, firing rubber bullets, or dragging them out of their cars.

Unsurprising but it will never stop being jarring when you see how quickly cops become aggressive towards black protesters or in protecting Trump supporters

https://twitter.com/Breaking911/status/1322957092412686343?s=20

https://twitter.com/davenewworld_2/status/1322996649430581248?s=20

Those people are idiots but the reason the blm supporters were tear gassed was property damage. It not exactly the same thing. You just need a few idiots to turn a protest violent then the police will shut it down with force no matter what clour you are.

Tell me how · 02-11-2020 7:00pm

Potatoeman wrote: »

Those people are idiots but the reason the blm supporters were tear gassed was property damage. It not exactly the same thing. You just need a few idiots to turn a protest violent then the police will shut it down with force no matter what clour you are.

A fact which right wingers are acutely aware of given the steps they took in instigating violence and property damage at many of the protests throughout the summer.

Potatoeman · 02-11-2020 7:06pm

Tell me how wrote: »

A fact which right wingers are acutely aware of given the steps they took in instigating violence and property damage at many of the protests throughout the summer.

Many were also just opportunistic looters too.

Foxtrol · 02-11-2020 8:43pm

Potatoeman wrote: »

Those people are idiots but the reason the blm supporters were tear gassed was property damage. It not exactly the same thing. You just need a few idiots to turn a protest violent then the police will shut it down with force no matter what clour you are.

You mustn't be paying attention, as that simply isn't true.

Cops have been tear gassing, beating, arresting peaceful BLM protestors for doing exactly what this Trump group did - blocking streets and not dispersing when told to.

The difference in force right down to what the cops choose to wear is obvious when you see any MAGA and BLM protest.

AbusesToilets · 03-11-2020 1:29am

Brian? wrote: »

This is an interesting read about political policing in North Carolina. Perfect example of systemic racism in the US.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/10/north-carolina-election-march-attack.html

State level government in NC is one of the most corrupt in the nation. The level of skullguggery, disenfranchisement and gerrymandering is disgraceful.

nullzero · 03-11-2020 1:41am

Tell me how wrote: »

A fact which right wingers are acutely aware of given the steps they took in instigating violence and property damage at many of the protests throughout the summer.

I've tried looking for sources to verify this idea without any real success. Could you post some links to that effect please?

Overheal · 03-11-2020 1:47am

nullzero wrote: »

I've tried looking for sources to verify this idea without any real success.

Are you trying? Look up the Boogaloo Movement.

2-6.jpg?quality=100&strip=all&w=642

nullzero · 03-11-2020 2:08am

Overheal wrote: »

Are you trying? Look up the Boogaloo Movement.

Firstly, thanks for taking the time to respond.

Onto the material you kindly provided...

You're talking about the Boogaloo movement who are so fractured that some of them protest against white supremacist groups?

Tbh they're a bunch of morons, like any group taking to the streets in America these days.

The notion that all violence at BLM protests can be attributed to far right groups attempting to make BLM look bad isn't reasonable.

Has there been some instances of that happening? I don't doubt it, but the numbers of people involved in shall we charitably describe as, non peaceful protesting ranges over 10,000. Are we to believe that when we see black skinned people engaging in violence and looting that what we are actually seeing is far right white supremacists pretending to be black people?

Seriously this whole topic is bizarre. People's skin colour isn't something to judge them by, their actions are however.

Shifting blame onto the "other side" isn't reasonable and in this instance there isn't sufficient evidence to back up statements that suggest a significant proportion of these situations are instigated by far right groups out to sully the name of BLM.

Overheal · 03-11-2020 2:09am

The notion that all violence at BLM protests can be attributed to far right groups attempting to make BLM look bad isn't reasonable.

I never said that.

nullzero · 03-11-2020 2:15am

Overheal wrote: »

I never said that.

I didn't say that you did.

You did respond to a post in which I directly addressed someone who did say that however.

Tell me how · 03-11-2020 2:28am

nullzero wrote: »

I didn't say that you did.

You did respond to a post in which I directly addressed someone who did say that however.

That was my post you responded to and I never said all violence was started by right wing activists either.

You are creating a strawman so you can then claim you defeated him.

nullzero · 03-11-2020 2:34am

Tell me how wrote: »

That was my post you responded to and I never said all violence was started by right wing activists either.

You are creating a strawman so you can then claim you defeated him.

I never used the word "all" I stated that I understood your post to mean that a significant proportion of these situations were caused by those your post identified as being responsible at (and I'm quoting you directly) "many of the protests".

If this isn't what you meant would you agree that the situations in which violence was instigated by far right groups at BLM protests does in actual fact represent an insignificant proportion of the violence at BLM protests?

Tell me how · 03-11-2020 2:41am

nullzero wrote: »

I never used the word "all" I stated that I understood your post to mean that a significant proportion of these situations were caused by those your post identified as being responsible at (and I'm quoting you directly) "many of the protests".

If this isn't what you meant would you agree that the situations in which violence was instigated by far right groups at BLM protests does in actual fact represent an insignificant proportion of the violence at BLM protests?

Absolutely not.

Here is content I posted on another thread yesterday.

newhouse87 wrote: »

ehh its the other way around, what's been happening all summer?its not trump supporters who have been destroying cities.

Ahem

Exhibit A

Right-wingers continue to be arrested for violence against Biden supporters and at BLM protests

Exhibit B

Experts say that in many states, far-right extremists, fresh from recruiting at “open states” rallies during the height of the COVID-19 pandemic, continue to inject themselves into the protests, creating a potential powder keg as they mix with Black Lives Matter demonstrators.

Exhibit C

Police in Minneapolis say a man known as "Umbrella Man", seen damaging property in the city during the Black Lives Matter protests, has links to white supremacy groups.

Exhibit D

Three men with military backgrounds have been arrested and charged with conspiracy to instigate violence at the Las Vegas protests against the death of George Floyd.

According to authorities, Andrew Lynam Jr., 23, Stephen Parshall, 35, and William Loomis, 40, all met at an anti-lockdown protest in April and self-identified as “boogaloo” boys, a term used to describe those calling for a violent civil conflict. They were arrested on Saturday on their way to a protest in downtown Las Vegas, after filling gas cans and making Molotov cocktails in glass bottles.

Given what I found after only a few minutes searching, and what Overheal found, it is surprising that you failed to find any evidence of such.

Police shootings, vigilante shootings, and Black Lives Matter

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