Police shootings, vigilante shootings, and Black Lives Matter

AbusesToilets

droidus wrote: »

These are all good ideas that address some of the systemic issues faced by the Black population. I wonder why they haven't been implemented? Or, indeed why the policies that have created or exacerbated these problems exist in the first place?

The same reason for all the voter suppression and disenfranchisement. Keeps certain group in power. I put a lot of blame on the Democrats too, they've had the black vote locked up for decades and have done nothing to change any of that.

droidus

So you don't think that there's any possibility that a nation with a centuries long tradition and history of appalling racism that only (officially) ended in the recent past may also have implemented a number of other social, economic and legal policies designed to suppress black populations?

AbusesToilets

droidus wrote: »

So you don't think that there's any possibility that a nation with a centuries long tradition and history of appalling racism that only (officially) ended in the recent past may also have implemented a number of other social, economic and legal policies designed to suppress black populations?

I don't deny there isn't racism today. I disagree that it's systemic in the fashion being claimed here and elsewhere, specifically with respect to policing.That was the case in decades past, but not today. For all the studies posted that argue for that, there are ones that hold the complete opposite.

droidus

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I don't deny there isn't racism today. I disagree that it's systemic in the fashion being claimed here and elsewhere, specifically with respect to policing.That was the case in decades past, but not today. For all the studies posted that argue for that, there are ones that hold the complete opposite.

This doesn't really answer the question. You have correctly identified a number of problems that have afflicted black people and communities for decades. There is a mountain of evidence to suggest that these issues are systemic, and are, in many cases deliberate policies, created and maintained by both parties (and that fact alone is enough to suggest that these problems are systemic).

Given also that the US has a long and detailed record of gratuitous and deeply rooted racism, how do you reconcile the historical and ongoing reality of the black experience in America with the claim that it is not a result of systemic racism?

AbusesToilets

droidus wrote: »

This doesn't really answer the question. You have correctly identified a number of problems that have afflicted black people and communities for decades. There is a mountain of evidence to suggest that these issues are systemic, and are, in many cases deliberate policies, created and maintained by both parties (and that fact alone is enough to suggest that these problems are systemic).

Given also that the US has a long and detailed record of gratuitous and deeply rooted racism, how do you reconcile the historical and ongoing reality of the black experience in America with the claim that it is not a result of systemic racism?

There's the counterpoint of other minority and immigrant groups to contrast with. While it's not exactly like for like, it's certainly instructive in a more modern context. The ready success and social gains of every other ethnic group would seem to argue against a claim of systemic racism in America.

Has there been discrimination, absolutely. Economic and legal systems probably the most impactful areas imo. There's also significant cultural issues keeping black people down. Poor family structures, poor attitudes to education and employment, glorification of violence gang culture. General greater levels of violence

Brian?

AbusesToilets wrote: »

End the war on drugs, with expungement of records for.non-violent drug crimes. Look to improve funding for schools, so that property taxes aren't as big of a driver in allocating funds. Look to improve education at an early age, to increase literacy.

Offer.more job training, in partnership with businesses. Offer incentives for investment and give avenues for work and the like. Look at ways to get more people access to banking.

I completely agree with l of that.

I assume thay you completely agree with my point about engagement with authority, because you didn't attempt to rebut it. Nice. We can both move on now in harmony.

AbusesToilets

Brian? wrote: »

I completely agree with l of that.

I assume thay you completely agree with my point about engagement with authority, because you didn't attempt to rebut it. Nice. We can both move on now in harmony.

I do agree, and would go further, in that they need to actually hold authority accountable through the ballet box. The Democrats haven't had to earn their votes in a long time. Some of the worst cities for crime and poverty have Democrat, black leadership.

droidus

AbusesToilets wrote: »

There's the counterpoint of other minority and immigrant groups to contrast with. While it's not exactly like for like, it's certainly instructive in a more modern context. The ready success and social gains of every other ethnic group would seem to argue against a claim of systemic racism in America.

Has there been discrimination, absolutely. Economic and legal systems probably the most impactful areas imo. There's also significant cultural issues keeping black people down. Poor family structures, poor attitudes to education and employment, glorification of violence gang culture. General greater levels of violence

You keep returning to the immigrant example as if its some kind of QED. It isn't.

Firstly there are significant barriers to success and prosperity to all non white groups, especially at higher levels (87% of fortune 500 managers are white). Many immigrants are already highly trained by the time they arrive in the US and the immigrant experience is significantly different from the experience of black americans.

Immigrants did not spend 246 years in slavery, 10 generations in bondage, with no control over their labor or livelihoods and, of course, without civil or legal rights of any kind. Imagine the impact this would have on any group of people. Unlike immigrants, this group had no cognizance of a common history or shared cultural identity to sustain it. Many of the 'cultural' issues you speak of stem directly from the systemic racism you deny exists.

You're making a weak, unsupported argument that sidesteps a tsunami of evidence and context and completely ignores multiple well documented contemporary examples of systemic policies which target blacks and ensure that they remain a disorganised underclass, riven by poverty and deprivation and therefore unable to threaten the state.

Nobody is claiming that every cop is a neo-nazi white supremacist who acts purely out of personal racism (although there is significant overlap in membership of racist groups and law enforcement, not just in the US - France, Italy, the UK and many other countries suffer from the same issue), but it seems that unless this is the proven to be the case you will continue to deny the self evident truth that disproportionate police brutalisation and legal bias against blacks is a predictable symptom of a sick and systemically racist society.

AbusesToilets

droidus wrote: »

You keep returning to the immigrant example as if its some kind of QED. It isn't.

Firstly there are significant barriers to success and prosperity to all non white groups, especially at higher levels (87% of fortune 500 managers are white). Many immigrants are already highly trained by the time they arrive in the US and the immigrant experience is significantly different from the experience of black americans.

Immigrants did not spend 246 years in slavery, 10 generations in bondage, with no control over their labor or livelihoods and, of course, without civil or legal rights of any kind. Imagine the impact this would have on any group of people. Unlike immigrants, this group had no cognizance of a common history or shared cultural identity to sustain it. Many of the 'cultural' issues you speak of stem directly from the systemic racism you deny exists.

You're making a weak, unsupported argument that sidesteps a tsunami of evidence and context and completely ignores multiple well documented contemporary examples of systemic policies which target blacks and ensure that they remain a disorganised underclass, riven by poverty and deprivation and therefore unable to threaten the state.

Nobody is claiming that every cop is a neo-nazi white supremacist who acts purely out of personal racism (although there is significant overlap in membership of racist groups and law enforcement, not just in the US - France, Italy, the UK and many other countries suffer from the same issue), but it seems that unless this is the proven to be the case you will continue to deny the self evident truth that disproportionate police brutalisation and legal bias against blacks is a predictable symptom of a sick and systemically racist society.

Show me the facts that support widespread police brutality. Studies on traffic stops doesn't equate to what is claimed by BLM and others here. It's just fundamentally not true.

Many of those immigrants you say have advantages are coming from countries where slavery is happening today. To act as though black people in the US don't enjoy greater standard of life than people coming from Africa is ludicrous. Is the racism so nuanced that it only targets American born black people?

moon2

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Show me the facts that support widespread police brutality. Studies on traffic stops doesn't equate to what is claimed by BLM and others here. It's just fundamentally not true.

We did! What did you think of the previous studies we linked?

droidus

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Show me the facts that support widespread police brutality. Studies on traffic stops doesn't equate to what is claimed by BLM and others here. It's just fundamentally not true.

Widespread police brutality exists in America, that's a fact. Black people are between 2.5-3+ times as likely to be killed by the police than other groups, They're more likely to be stopped and searched and suffer indignities at the hands of the police during the process. They're more likely to be prosecuted and imprisoned, and receive stricter sentences for the same crimes that whites are prosecuted for. These are also facts.

Many of those immigrants you say have advantages are coming from countries where slavery is happening today. To act as though black people in the US don't enjoy greater standard of life than people coming from Africa is ludicrous. Is the racism so nuanced that it only targets American born black people?

This doesn't make sense. Are you saying that a medical graduate from Nigeria, or a Libyan engineer, or an Indonesian nurse has less advantages than a black person who grew up in a ghetto in an American city with no opportunities and limited access to education and employment? It's a fallacious argument that fails to take into account the myriad of different types of immigrants, their level of education, wealth, social and family backgrounds... a ludicrous straw to grasp at.

AbusesToilets

droidus wrote: »

Widespread police brutality exists in America, that's a fact. Black people are between 2.5-3+ times as likely to be killed by the police than other groups, They're more likely to be stopped and searched and suffer indignities at the hands of the police during the process. They're more likely to be prosecuted and imprisoned, and receive stricter sentences for the same crimes that whites are prosecuted for. These are also facts.

And why are they more likely to be killed? Is perhaps correlated to the fact they commit more violent crime? Of course not, definitely the racsims.

This doesn't make sense. Are you saying that a medical graduate from Nigeria, or a Libyan engineer, or an Indonesian nurse has less advantages than a black person who grew up in a ghetto in an American city with no opportunities and limited access to education and employment? It's a fallacious argument that fails to take into account the myriad of different types of immigrants, their level of education, wealth, social and family backgrounds... a ludicrous straw to grasp at.

An immigrant coming from a war torn country? Yes, I would absolutely say they have less advantages than black people living in the US. Many of those degree holders can't use their education in the US, at least initially, as their accreditation isn't recognised.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-merit-immigration-brain-waste-20170326-story.html

droidus

AbusesToilets wrote: »

And why are they more likely to be killed? Is perhaps correlated to the fact they commit more violent crime? Of course not, definitely the racsims.

OK, so let's accept this argument for a moment, that black people are more likely to commit violent crime and are therefore disproportionate profiling, murder and harassment by police is justified.

Here is the definition of bigotry;

"Obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion, or faction; in particular, prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group."

So assuming that all black people are likely to be violent based on the actions of a minority and treating them differently because of this is textbook bigotry, and bigotry based on skin colour is called racism.

You're literally making the argument that US policing is racist.

An immigrant coming from a war torn country? Yes, I would absolutely say they have less advantages than black people living in the US. Many of those degree holders can't use their education in the US, at least initially, as their accreditation isn't recognised.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-merit-immigration-brain-waste-20170326-story.html

Another fallacious argument, that again...

...fails to take into account the myriad of different types of immigrants, their level of education, wealth, social and family backgrounds...

Or are you saying that the only immigrant that exists is one from a war torn country and that these immigrants specifically are more successful than black populations?

There are several names for this kind of argument, the nicest one I can think of right now is bad faith.

AbusesToilets

droidus wrote: »

OK, so let's accept this argument for a moment, that black people are more likely to commit violent crime and are therefore disproportionate profiling, murder and harassment by police is justified.

Here is the definition of bigotry;

"Obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion, or faction; in particular, prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group."

So assuming that all black people are likely to be violent based on the actions of a minority and treating them differently because of this is textbook bigotry, and bigotry based on skin colour is called racism.

You're literally making the argument that US policing is racist.



Another fallacious argument, that again...

It's bigotry to acknowledge a fact now? Interesting. I'd argue that police focus their resources on where the most crime is. More black crime, more police attention. Struggle to see the racism in that.

Or are you saying that the only immigrant that exists is one from a war torn country and that these immigrants specifically are more successful than black populations?

There are several names for this kind of argument, the nicest one I can think of right now is bad faith.

No, of course not, but the inverse is also true. To claim there's nothing but doctors and engineers being let in is disingenuous.

Why are immigrants successful? I'd argue culture, one that prioritises working hard and educational achievement.

https://medium.com/@joecarleton/why-nigerian-immigrants-are-the-most-successful-ethnic-group-in-the-u-s-23a7ea5a0832

There's all too many barriers for people from low income communities, but working hard in school is the best path out. That's not something that seems to be a part of black culture to the same extent.

droidus

I think it's clear that any reasonable person would look at centuries of systematic enslavement, brutalisation, disenfranchisement, bigotry, slaughter and oppression and contemporary and continuing policies that perpetuate black poverty and oppression and look at the outcomes for black Americans and say... "Yeah, this probably has something to do with racism".

Im not saying this is the case, but I also think that a reasonable person would look at the prevarication, straw men, cherry picking and multiple fallacious arguments you've made in this thread and probably come to the same conclusion.

GreeBo

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Show me the facts that support widespread police brutality. Studies on traffic stops doesn't equate to what is claimed by BLM and others here. It's just fundamentally not true.

Many of those immigrants you say have advantages are coming from countries where slavery is happening today. To act as though black people in the US don't enjoy greater standard of life than people coming from Africa is ludicrous. Is the racism so nuanced that it only targets American born black people?

"Other people have it worse so get over yourself"

Is that really your argument?
Hopefully you see that this means you can *never* complain about anything?

AbusesToilets

droidus wrote: »

I think it's clear that any reasonable person would look at centuries of systematic enslavement, brutalisation, disenfranchisement, bigotry, slaughter and oppression and contemporary and continuing policies that perpetuate black poverty and oppression and look at the outcomes for black Americans and say... "Yeah, this probably has something to do with racism".

Im not saying this is the case, but I also think that a reasonable person would look at the prevarication, straw men, cherry picking and multiple fallacious arguments you've made in this thread and probably come to the same conclusion.

Fallacious argument like black people commit more violent crime, so have more interactions with police, and specifically ones that end violently?

Such lies. You're right.

GreeBo

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I'd argue that police focus their resources on where the most crime is. More black crime, more police attention. Struggle to see the racism in that.

Wont they find more crime in black communities simply down to the fact that they are focusing on crime in black communities?
Its a self fulfilling prophecy.

Its a bit like finding more covid infections because you are doing more testing. It doesnt mean that the people you are not testing are not also infected.

AbusesToilets

GreeBo wrote: »

Wont they find more crime in black communities simply down to the fact that they are focusing on crime in black communities?
Its a self fulfilling prophecy.

Its a bit like finding more covid infections because you are doing more testing. It doesnt mean that the people you are not testing are not also infected.

When it comes to drug crime, I agree. I've been pretty consistent in views towards that. Ending that travesty of justice would help elevate society across the board.

It's the other areas that are incontrovertible. The level of violence isn't found elsewhere, even with comparable poverty or drug usage. Until that can be addressed, I don't know that anything else matters. You can't build a house on a foundation of sand.

Foxtrol

What is being spewed here is similar to the propaganda since slavery.

In practically every country in the world there is a connection between violence/crime to poverty, this increases further when those in poverty are in densely populated areas.

Black families and communities are significantly poorer in the US and live in more densely populated areas, especially in comparison to white families/communities. A key driver of why this is the case is systematic racism they have faced and continue to face.

What is being claimed is akin to saying the people of Dublin's north inner city are naturally inclined to commit more crime. Despite how much additional support the Irish government provides those in poverty in comparison to the US, we have not been able to break the connection between poverty and crime nor helped many families get out of cycles of poverty, even in most cases without having systemic racism being another road block.

AbusesToilets

Foxtrol wrote: »

What is being spewed here is similar to the propaganda since slavery.

In practically every country in the world there is a connection between violence/crime to poverty, this increases further when those in poverty are in densely populated areas.

Black families and communities are significantly poorer in the US and live in more densely populated areas, especially in comparison to white families/communities. A key driver of why this is the case is systematic racism they have faced and continue to face.

What is being claimed is akin to saying the people of Dublin's north inner city are naturally inclined to commit more crime. Despite how much additional support the Irish government provides those in poverty in comparison to the US, we have not been able to break the connection between poverty and crime nor helped many families get out of cycles of poverty, even in most cases without having systemic racism being another road block.

Do you see similar levels of violence in comparable poor white or Hispanic communities?

Frankie Machine

Foxtrol wrote: »

What is being spewed here is similar to the propaganda since slavery.

In practically every country in the world there is a connection between violence/crime to poverty, this increases further when those in poverty are in densely populated areas.

Black families and communities are significantly poorer in the US and live in more densely populated areas, especially in comparison to white families/communities. A key driver of why this is the case is systematic racism they have faced and continue to face.

What is being claimed is akin to saying the people of Dublin's north inner city are naturally inclined to commit more crime. Despite how much additional support the Irish government provides those in poverty in comparison to the US, we have not been able to break the connection between poverty and crime nor helped many families get out of cycles of poverty, even in most cases without having systemic racism being another road block.

Contraception, and stable family environments could significantly improve all that.

Too much to ask ?

Foxtrol

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Do you see similar levels of violence in comparable poor white or Hispanic communities?

Yes, look at the majority white north inner city Dublin.

It is worldwide, more poverty means more violence and more likely to be the victim of violence.

Foxtrol

Frankie Machine wrote: »

Contraception, and stable family environments could significantly improve all that.

Too much to ask ?

Are you talking about north inner city Dublin again? :rolleyes:

This isn't a race issue, it is a poverty issue. Areas of poverty nearly always align with increased single parent families, poorer education outcomes, and more crime and violence.

AbusesToilets

Foxtrol wrote: »

Yes, look at the majority white north inner city Dublin.

It is worldwide, more poverty means more violence and more likely to be the victim of violence.

Thought we were talking about the US here

Foxtrol

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Thought we were talking about the US here

Are you disputing the connection between crime and poverty?

Are you disputing that black families face a higher rate of poverty, especially in urban areas?

Frankie Machine

Foxtrol wrote: »

Are you talking about north inner city Dublin again? :rolleyes:

If I wanted to specify, I would have. You brought the two places together in the first place.

This isn't a race issue, it is a poverty issue.

Fascinating.

You made it all about race, four posts ago.

Black families and communities are significantly poorer in the US... especially in comparison to white families/communities. A key driver of why this is the case is systematic racism...

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=115008422&postcount=765

It's racism when it suits, and poverty when it suits.

Areas of poverty nearly always align with increased single parent families

And in spite of contraception.

Because personal responsibility never suits.

AbusesToilets

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Thought we were talking about the US here

Let's try again. Is there a comparable level of violence to black communities in poor white or Hispanic ones in the US?

Frankie Machine wrote: »

Because personal responsibility never suits.

That racist, can't expect people to be responsible for their actions.

Foxtrol

Frankie Machine wrote: »

If I wanted to specify, I would have. You brought the two places together in the first place.

Fascinating.

You made it all about race, four posts ago.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=115008422&postcount=765

It's racism when it suits, and poverty when it suits.

And in spite of contraception.

Because personal responsibility never suits.

Interested in hearing how 'personal responsibility' would have stopped their ancestors from being slaves nor they and generations before them facing systematic racism.

Foxtrol

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Let's try again. Is there a comparable level of violence to black communities in poor white or Hispanic ones in the US?

I already did.

Foxtrol wrote: »

Yes

I await your response to my questions.

Foxtrol wrote: »

Are you disputing the connection between crime and poverty?

Are you disputing that black families face a higher rate of poverty, especially in urban areas?