Police shootings, vigilante shootings, and Black Lives Matter

Foxtrol

The gun toting St Louis couple, who Trump later had speak at his convention, have been indicted on 2 felonies, not only on guns but also evidence tampering (something that innocent people always do...).

The governor said he would pardon them but I've seen some talk that by them accepting guilt via a pardon that they'd lose their law licenses.

I'd say they are stuck between a rock and a hard place but many of their supporters claimed that there is no way they'd be found guilty so they should be happy to take their day in court and prove it

https://twitter.com/SollenbergerRC/status/1316394833200795652?s=20

Overheal

Foxtrol wrote: »

The gun toting St Louis couple, who Trump later had speak at his convention, have been indicted on 2 felonies, not only on guns but also evidence tampering (something that innocent people always do...).

The governor said he would pardon them but I've seen some talk that by them accepting guilt via a pardon that they'd lose their law licenses.

I'd say they are stuck between a rock and a hard place but many of their supporters claimed that there is no way they'd be found guilty so they should be happy to take their day in court and prove it

https://twitter.com/SollenbergerRC/status/1316394833200795652?s=20

They've been running around town handing out postcards with their autographs :rolleyes:

https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/indicted-st-louis-lawyers-left-pancake-house-employee-a-signed-photo-of-themselves-pointing-guns-at-protesters/

https://twitter.com/ChrisNagusKMOV/status/1316132423369994245?s=20

Manic Moran

Foxtrol wrote: »

The gun toting St Louis couple, who Trump later had speak at his convention, have been indicted on 2 felonies, not only on guns but also evidence tampering (something that innocent people always do...).

The governor said he would pardon them but I've seen some talk that by them accepting guilt via a pardon that they'd lose their law licenses.

I'd say they are stuck between a rock and a hard place but many of their supporters claimed that there is no way they'd be found guilty so they should be happy to take their day in court and prove it

https://twitter.com/SollenbergerRC/status/1316394833200795652?s=20

The tampering charge is based on the fact that the pistol was assembled with the firing pin spring backwards. From July https://www.ksdk.com/article/news/local/gardner-staffer-ordered-crime-lab-to-reassemble-patricia-mccloskeys-gun/63-be112149-d06c-4f54-a225-6545e74b5c2d

ST. LOUIS — The gun Patricia McCloskey waved at protesters was inoperable when it arrived at the St. Louis police crime lab, but a member of Circuit Attorney Kim Gardner's staff ordered crime lab experts to disassemble and reassemble it and wrote that it was “readily capable of lethal use” in charging documents filed Monday, 5 On Your Side has learned.

In Missouri, police and prosecutors must prove that a weapon is “readily” capable of lethal use when it is used in the type of crime with which the McCloskeys have been charged.

Assistant Circuit Attorney Chris Hinckley ordered crime lab staff members to field strip the handgun and found it had been assembled incorrectly. Specifically, the firing pin spring was put in front of the firing pin, which was backward, and made the gun incapable of firing, according to documents obtained by 5 On Your Side.

[...]

Patricia McCloskey and her husband, Mark McCloskey, have said the handgun Patricia McCloskey waved at protesters was inoperable because they had used it as a prop during a lawsuit they once filed against a gun manufacturer. In order to bring it into a courtroom, they made it inoperable.

Given that it applies to only one of the two weapons, and that the use of the pistol as a prop in a court case can presumably be confirmed, it's going to be a bit of a push to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the pistol was reassembled only after the confrontation.

Foxtrol

Manic Moran wrote: »

The tampering charge is based on the fact that the pistol was assembled with the firing pin spring backwards. From July https://www.ksdk.com/article/news/local/gardner-staffer-ordered-crime-lab-to-reassemble-patricia-mccloskeys-gun/63-be112149-d06c-4f54-a225-6545e74b5c2d

Given that it applies to only one of the two weapons, and that the use of the pistol as a prop in a court case can presumably be confirmed, it's going to be a bit of a push to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the pistol was reassembled only after the confrontation.

I'm not so sure. Why was a 'prop' at a random court case at such easy access to wave around with only a few moments notice? Was it kept with the functional gun, if so why? Do the McCloskey's have the knowledge to reassemble a gun. Is there evidence that the gun was ever used previously? Was the gun in same state when it was originally inoperable?

There is some leg work but not that big

droidus

Some interesting findings in this study which are germane to this topic:

https://twitter.com/AmarAmarasingam/status/1317091246175850499

AbusesToilets

droidus wrote: »

Some interesting findings in this study which are germane to this topic:

https://twitter.com/AmarAmarasingam/status/1317091246175850499

Seems rather light on details. What are they considering a "Protest event"? 5 people, 50, 500? It also doesn't break down the where the majority of the rioting and looting occurred.

Dyr

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

It's quite sad that in this day and age we have people posting on public internet forums clearly racist drivel saying things like this:



Replace the word "black" with word "irish" and you could be transported into 19th century England with its Hibernophobia strand of racism

Or replace it with word "jew" and you may as well be reading something from Nazi Germany.

Replace the word "black" with the word "male" and no one would bat an eyelid Because men commit more crimes than women. Facts dont care about racism or sexism

moon2

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Seems rather light on details. What are they considering a "Protest event"? 5 people, 50, 500? It also doesn't break down the where the majority of the rioting and looting occurred.

It sounds like you're dismissing the study as the summarised results are not detailed enough.

Have you gone and read the full study? You can analyse their data too!

AbusesToilets

moon2 wrote: »

It sounds like you're dismissing the study as the summarised results are not detailed enough.

Have you gone and read the full study? You can analyse their data too!

I didn't see a link to said study? Also no mention of the real world value of said damages, conveniently enough.

moon2

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I didn't see a link to said study? Also no mention of the real world value of said damages, conveniently enough.

So rather than trying to inform yourself, you're simply going to disregard it because you weren't spoonfed the information and links?

Let me know if you do end up researching the topic further and want to discuss the merits of the study.

terryduff12

So all the videos of black people that are looting stores just some kind of cgi tomfoolery going on

AbusesToilets

moon2 wrote: »

So rather than trying to inform yourself, you're simply going to disregard it because you weren't spoonfed the information and links?

Let me know if you do end up researching the topic further and want to discuss the merits of the study.

Right on, always good practice to make reference to a study that isn't available.

droidus

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Seems rather light on details. What are they considering a "Protest event"? 5 people, 50, 500? It also doesn't break down the where the majority of the rioting and looting occurred.

Here you go, the data is all here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-HM-bFsnTd9omYOrB8JOMeQ0XzPvCaVaADKqXQ_RpXg/edit#gid=0

Tell me how

terryduff12 wrote: »

So all the videos of black people that are looting stores just some kind of cgi tomfoolery going on

No, it is just recognized that people doing this were vastly outnumbered by peaceful protesters.

Brian?

AbusesToilets wrote: »

The society today isn't the one that those same people grew up in, same as Irish society isn't the one from the Famine era. The Famine had an incredible impact on Irish culture, effects of which last thru to today. Does that mean that Irish people ought to blame problems they face today on the difficulties of the past? Again, you infantalise the black community with your line of argument.

Things have improved immeasurably for black people in the US, and relative to the rest of the world, they enjoy wealth and opportunity unknown in many places. Hence the high number of immigrants who flock to the is every year.

When my parents got married it was illegal for a mixed race couple to marry in some states.

As much as you try to point to institutional racism as ancient history, it feels pretty close to me. There are plenty of people alive today who voted against democrats for supporting the civil rights movement. Their kids haven’t retired yet.

You love to hand wave this stuff away, but it feels pretty close to me and a lot of black people.

Brian?

AbusesToilets wrote: »

It's been 60 yrs since the Civil Rights act, yet you want to act as though society isn't massively better for black people nowadays. Everyone alive lives in a world shaped by the past, yet only one seems determined to use it as an excuse for all their failings and struggles.

It hasn’t been 60 years.

Society is better, but it could still be better in future for black people.

I honestly feel your complete lack of perspective mind boggling. You’re argument boils down to “you got civil rights, no shut up and behave”

AbusesToilets

Brian? wrote: »

When my parents got married it was illegal for a mixed race couple to marry in some states.

My step mother and her family were almost excommunicated for having the temerity to attend a Protestant school. Times change, things get better. Forever looking back and clinging to past wrongs does little to improve your life today.

Brian? wrote: »

It hasn’t been 60 years.

Society is better, but it could still be better in future for black people.

I honestly feel your complete lack of perspective mind boggling. You’re argument boils down to “you got civil rights, no shut up and behave”

No Brian, the argument that BLM claims of oppression aren't true in this age. Things are better, not perfect or where they could be, but absolutely better. The barriers to success are mostly within their communities, as opposed to external factors. Instead of blaming white people for the racism, maybe address the culture that disregards education and work among large segments of the population. Instead of protesting police violence, do something about the crime in your community.

Brian?

AbusesToilets wrote: »

My step mother and her family were almost excommunicated for having the temerity to attend a Protestant school. Times change, things get better. Forever looking back and clinging to past wrongs does little to improve your life today.




No Brian, the argument that BLM claims of oppression aren't true in this age. Things are better, not perfect or where they could be, but absolutely better. The barriers to success are mostly within their communities, as opposed to external factors. Instead of blaming white people for the racism, maybe address the culture that disregards education and work among large segments of the population. Instead of protesting police violence, do something about the crime in your community.

There you go again. Hand waving off hundreds of years of oppression and institutional racism. It was only in 1972 that the black people for equal labour right. 48 years ago.

Tell me how

AbusesToilets wrote: »

My step mother and her family were almost excommunicated for having the temerity to attend a Protestant school. Times change, things get better. Forever looking back and clinging to past wrongs does little to improve your life today.




No Brian, the argument that BLM claims of oppression aren't true in this age. Things are better, not perfect or where they could be, but absolutely better. The barriers to success are mostly within their communities, as opposed to external factors. Instead of blaming white people for the racism, maybe address the culture that disregards education and work among large segments of the population. Instead of protesting police violence, do something about the crime in your community.

I have no doubt that a similar sentiment was levied towards advocates for equality at the time when black people were looking for a vote and when they wanted an end to segregation.

Slightly polished up version of 'What more do ye want, equality?'

AbusesToilets

Brian? wrote: »

There you go again. Hand waving off hundreds of years of oppression and institutional racism. It was only in 1972 that the black people for equal labour right. 48 years ago.

So what's the timeline for how long that card gets to be played? How many generations removed from slavery get to use it as an excuse for failure? It's amazing how immigrants from countries with slavery currently occuring, and many other horrible circumstances can find success in this racist county.

The fact is, it will never be enough. There's no endstate beyond entrenching their group at the top of the social ladder. No action or redress sufficient to draw a line under history and move forward. Every failure due to racism, meanwhile another generation wastes in poverty and crime.

droidus

Brian? wrote: »

There you go again. Hand waving off hundreds of years of oppression and institutional racism. It was only in 1972 that the black people for equal labour right. 48 years ago.

And also completely ignoring the fact that many of these forms of oppression and racism continue to exist in new formulations.

droidus wrote: »

And since then we've had redlining, the CIA mediated crack epidemic, mass incarceration and a host of other factors which coincidentally, disproportionately affected the black community.

Brian?

AbusesToilets wrote: »

So what's the timeline for how long that card gets to be played? How many generations removed from slavery get to use it as an excuse for failure? It's amazing how immigrants from countries with slavery currently occuring, and many other horrible circumstances can find success in this racist county.

It's not a "card" that gets played. It's a fact that institutional racism existed a generation ago. An actual fact, unlike.....

The fact is, it will never be enough. There's no endstate beyond entrenching their group at the top of the social ladder. No action or redress sufficient to draw a line under history and move forward. Every failure due to racism, meanwhile another generation wastes in poverty and crime.

That's an opinion horse. And a narrow minded one.

It's only by addressing the root of the inequality can you do anything about. Your idea to draw a line under history is actually plain stupid.

Tell me how

AbusesToilets wrote: »

So what's the timeline for how long that card gets to be played? How many generations removed from slavery get to use it as an excuse for failure? It's amazing how immigrants from countries with slavery currently occuring, and many other horrible circumstances can find success in this racist county.

The fact is, it will never be enough. There's no endstate beyond entrenching their group at the top of the social ladder. No action or redress sufficient to draw a line under history and move forward. Every failure due to racism, meanwhile another generation wastes in poverty and crime.

The names of Tamir Rice, Eric Garner, Breonna Taylor, George Floyd and others have been heard at protests in recent years because of the treatment by police towards them, in recent years.

Stop trying to change the narrative by trying to deflect through suggesting BLM is focused on activities from centuries ago just because you want to ignore the activities going on right now.

AbusesToilets

Brian? wrote: »

It's not a "card" that gets played. It's a fact that institutional racism existed a generation ago. An actual fact, unlike.....



That's an opinion horse. And a narrow minded one.

It's only by addressing the root of the inequality can you do anything about. Your idea to draw a line under history is actually plain stupid.

Despite the many laws that directly address discrimination, affirmative action etc, you feel inequality hasn't been addressed.

So what form does that take then? What quantitive actions have yet to get taken?

moon2

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Despite the many laws that directly address discrimination, affirmative action etc, you feel inequality hasn't been addressed.

So what form does that take then? What quantitive actions have yet to get taken?

What fault did you find with the studies which showed that inequality has not yet been addressed? The only issue recall you raising is that you were unable to find the underlying data for one of them, but someone linked you to it. Was it as accurate as you hoped? If not, why not?

Apart from that, did you have issues with the studies showing the systemic racism in the system - specifically the one whose main conclusion was "the darker your skin, the worse your sentence".

From your posts it looks like you're disregarding everything being shared as you neither refute them factually, nor adjust your position to take them into account.

Odd.

Brian?

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Despite the many laws that directly address discrimination, affirmative action etc, you feel inequality hasn't been addressed.

So what form does that take then? What quantitive actions have yet to get taken?

I never said it hasn’t been addressed. I think there have been many improvements. As you said, Black people have it much better now than they used to in the US.

Systemic racism still exists in the US and should be addressed by retraining and education police forces for a start.

AbusesToilets

Brian? wrote: »

I never said it hasn’t been addressed. I think there have been many improvements. As you said, Black people have it much better now than they used to in the US.

Systemic racism still exists in the US and should be addressed by retraining and education police forces for a start.

Ok, if we take your premise (which I disagree with). Then what? Will a retrained, more culturally sensitive police force reduce the violence endemic in those communities? Will it make them engage with education more?

Brian?

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Ok, if we take your premise (which I disagree with). Then what? Will a retrained, more culturally sensitive police force reduce the violence endemic in those communities? Will it make them engage with education more?

I’m fully aware that you’re winding up for some facetious point here. But, actually yes it will. If the Black community are better able to engage with authority because they trust them it can only benefit the community.

Treat people like they are criminals and you drive them away.

What do you think should be done now? Nothing, because they have never had it better?

AbusesToilets

Brian? wrote: »

I’m fully aware that you’re winding up for some facetious point here. But, actually yes it will. If the Black community are better able to engage with authority because they trust them it can only benefit the community.

Treat people like they are criminals and you drive them away.

What do you think should be done now? Nothing, because they have never had it better?

End the war on drugs, with expungement of records for.non-violent drug crimes. Look to improve funding for schools, so that property taxes aren't as big of a driver in allocating funds. Look to improve education at an early age, to increase literacy.

Offer.more job training, in partnership with businesses. Offer incentives for investment and give avenues for work and the like. Look at ways to get more people access to banking.

droidus

AbusesToilets wrote: »

End the war on drugs, with expungement of records for.non-violent drug crimes. Look to improve funding for schools, so that property taxes aren't as big of a driver in allocating funds. Look to improve education at an early age, to increase literacy.

Offer.more job training, in partnership with businesses. Offer incentives for investment and give avenues for work and the like. Look at ways to get more people access to banking.

These are all good ideas that address some of the systemic issues faced by the Black population. I wonder why they haven't been implemented? Or, indeed why the policies that have created or exacerbated these problems exist in the first place?