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DCM 2018 - Mentored Novice Thread

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    #2642
    Rossi7
    Registered Users Posts: 353 ✭✭Rossi7


    But he’s our stubborn b*ll*x 😂


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    #2643
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,247 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    skyblue46 wrote: »
    My faith is restored! :) You're all over this. Well done. :D

    I just figure I'd rather slow down than risk the wrath of a skyblue b*ll*cking! ;)


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    #2644
    pilot1087
    Registered Users Posts: 301 ✭✭pilot1087


    aloooof wrote: »
    I'd have a similar HM time to you (2:00:58 from back in June). For the marathon, I just want to get through it but I'm considering going with the 4:20 pacers (9:55 min/mile); a very general rule of thumb is HM + 20 mins. For reference, my LSR's are all around the 11 min/mile range.

    I'm no expert, but it might help to slow down your LSR pace. The 2:10 one you did was at 9:55 min/mile pace. If you're targetting 4:45, that's 10:53 pace so you ran your LSR a minute a mile quicker than your PMP. My understanding is your LSR's should be about 60 second per mile slower than your PMP.

    Thanks aloof, much appreciated on the pointers.
    skyblue46 wrote: »
    :confused: I'm starting to feel like a broken record at this stage and it's giving me a thumping headache! :o

    If I'm reading this right you have a planned marathon pace of about 10:50 per mile and you did your LSR at a pace about 50 secs per mile faster? I took the liberty of having a glance through Strava and most of your runs, including recovery runs, are in the 9.xx range. :confused:

    Ok, I'm off to find a big white flag.....:D

    Sorry Skyblue :D, Doing the maths on it I know it seems my times are way off. In truth (and I know I'm probably going to be lambasted for this) for a lot of the runs I've been doing I have been trying not to focus on the watch too much and just do it off feeling. The reason I'm aiming for 4:45 is because I know once the energy levels go on the day my times will drop off very quickly so I'm trying to be realistic. I'm a complete novice when it comes to pacing a marathon distance and I think anything under 4:30 would be above my level.


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    #2645
    Casey78
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 873 ✭✭✭Casey78


    pilot1087 wrote: »
    Hi all,

    Is there a set rule of thumb way of planning a marathon target time based off HM/training run times?

    I did the Dingle HM a couple of weeks ago in 2:02 and ran a 13.1 mile LSR on Sunday in 2:10 but felt I definitely had a few more miles in the legs after I finished. I'm working off the HHN1 plan and hoping to do the marathon itself in under 4:45. Hopefully will have a better idea after the next few LSR's once I hit the 20M mark.

    Thanks for all the great hints and tips in the thread so far. (P.S. I'm Mikey in the Strava group)
    4:45 sounds a bit slow for you based on your Half,Dingle is a tough half as well so I think you're capable of 4:30 in the Full.


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    #2646
    ariana`
    Registered Users Posts: 4,291 ✭✭✭ariana`


    pilot1087 wrote: »
    Thanks aloof, much appreciated on the pointers.



    Sorry Skyblue :D, Doing the maths on it I know it seems my times are way off. In truth (and I know I'm probably going to be lambasted for this) for a lot of the runs I've been doing I have been trying not to focus on the watch too much and just do it off feeling. The reason I'm aiming for 4:45 is because I know once the energy levels go on the day my times will drop off very quickly so I'm trying to be realistic. I'm a complete novice when it comes to pacing a marathon distance and I think anything under 4:30 would be above my level.

    Don't worry about being a complete novice, you are exactly the person this thread is for! Take the advice given on board and you'll do fine.

    Pace yourself properly with a realistic target from the start and your times shouldn't drop off very quickly. Dublin is set up for a negative split with the first half being the tougher half. Don't over cook the first half and you should be able to run the second half a small bit quicker (this is called a negative split). Go out too fast and repent you shall in the 2nd half :eek:


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    #2647
    skyblue46
    Registered Users Posts: 4,807 ✭✭✭skyblue46


    pilot1087 wrote: »
    Thanks aloof, much appreciated on the pointers.



    Sorry Skyblue :D, Doing the maths on it I know it seems my times are way off. In truth (and I know I'm probably going to be lambasted for this) for a lot of the runs I've been doing I have been trying not to focus on the watch too much and just do it off feeling. The reason I'm aiming for 4:45 is because I know once the energy levels go on the day my times will drop off very quickly so I'm trying to be realistic. I'm a complete novice when it comes to pacing a marathon distance and I think anything under 4:30 would be above my level.

    I get this but the whole idea of long slow runs and proper pacing is that there will not be a fall off in pace. You will/ should start at a pace that you can sustain for the distance on DCM day. Starting off at 9 mimute miles and ending at 11:30 miles is not part of the plan. To achieve a 4:30 finish can be done relatively painlessly or your way :eek:


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    #2648
    skyblue46
    Registered Users Posts: 4,807 ✭✭✭skyblue46


    Safiri wrote: »
    Side effects of being a stubborn b*ll*x, welcome to the club:pac:

    I remember you giving our thread the mother and father of all b*llockings this time last year. I'm only in the ha'penny place! :pac:

    Thankfully the bosses here are much more novice friendly and can pick up the pieces after I wreak havoc. :)


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    #2649
    happyfriday74
    Registered Users Posts: 194 ✭✭happyfriday74


    Training is a funny one for me. Its my third Marathon but I haven't ran one in 10 years and have two little kids dictating training this time around.

    Im not getting out for the required runs in any plan and seem to be doing the following: Big long run on the weekend that I have been building on each week(currently at 19 miles and will work this to 21 and then taper, medium run midweek of 8 to 12 miles and light run midweek of 3 miles- slightly extended run home after work

    I walk 4k to work each day(2k there 2 k back)

    In the old days Id be religiously following a plan and out three times a week between each LSR

    That said the weekend LSRs are going well and I feel great.


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    #2650
    skyblue46
    Registered Users Posts: 4,807 ✭✭✭skyblue46


    I've just been thinking about a way to explain the whole pacing idea in non running terms. This isn't the best comparison but it's the best I could come up with in 15 minutes! :pac:

    Most of us have at some point or another gone to a gym and before starting on a program we get an assessment from one of the staff. They will sit us at a weight machine, select a weight and ask us to lift it 15 times. We will be told that it should start to get harder to push as we go and then become difficult after about 12 lifts. We begin lifting. It feels like there is no weight to lift. We think this eejit seriously underestimated our strength! But slowly it getting more difficult until by the 14th push we want to give up. :D

    This is how you will run the marathon. The same pace will feel like walking at the beginning and sprinting at the end. LSRs are like doing repeats that we can complete rather than adding weight to the bar and only being able to lift it 8 times.


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    #2651
    Kellygirl
    Registered Users Posts: 3,020 ✭✭✭Kellygirl


    pilot1087 wrote: »
    Thanks aloof, much appreciated on the pointers.



    Sorry Skyblue :D, Doing the maths on it I know it seems my times are way off. In truth (and I know I'm probably going to be lambasted for this) for a lot of the runs I've been doing I have been trying not to focus on the watch too much and just do it off feeling. The reason I'm aiming for 4:45 is because I know once the energy levels go on the day my times will drop off very quickly so I'm trying to be realistic. I'm a complete novice when it comes to pacing a marathon distance and I think anything under 4:30 would be above my level.
    Casey78 wrote: »
    4:45 sounds a bit slow for you based on your Half,Dingle is a tough half as well so I think you're capable of 4:30 in the Full.

    Totally agree. 2:02 in Dingle which is mainly uphill is excellent - 4:30 should be easily if you pace yourself properly from the start.
    ariana` wrote: »
    Don't worry about being a complete novice, you are exactly the person this thread is for! Take the advice given on board and you'll do fine.

    Pace yourself properly with a realistic target from the start and your times shouldn't drop off very quickly. Dublin is set up for a negative split with the first half being the tougher half. Don't over cook the first half and you should be able to run the second half a small bit quicker (this is called a negative split). Go out too fast and repent you shall in the 2nd half :eek:

    This is exactly what I was going to say too. When you start running the first few miles will feel ridiculously slow - or should do if you are pacing yourself correctly. Quite a few of us here ran negative splits last year and got faster and faster as the marathon went on. You don’t have to assume you will run out of energy. The only reason you would do that is starting too fast, assuming all training has been done and feeling good etc. it’s a much much re enjoyable way to do it too.


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    #2652
    Rossi7
    Registered Users Posts: 353 ✭✭Rossi7


    While we're on the topic of paces, I was reading various articles about racing a half marathon too close to the marathon. Is this half too close to DCM for us novices to race and if so what way should we run it


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    #2653
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 18,158 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    Rossi7 wrote: »
    While we're on the topic of paces, I was reading various articles about racing a half marathon too close to the marathon. Is this half too close to DCM for us novices to race and if so what way should we run it

    I'm curious about that myself as I was planning to go all out in the Race series half.

    I read that if aiming for a sub 4 marathon you really need to be doing the half in less than 1.50, which I think I can do but I need to give it a good lash and find out.

    I could take it a bit easier if I have to, do it at PMP rather than the faster pace I was planning, but is it actually too close to DCM for a full on balls to the wall effort?


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    #2654
    OOnegative
    Registered Users Posts: 4,834 ✭✭✭OOnegative


    The Race series half is positioned where it is 5 weeks out, so folks can race it and have adequate time to recover before DCM. It also gives runners who are still unsure what time to target in the marathon a better idea what they may be capable of come DCM. Race it all out would be my advice.


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    #2655
    Rossi7
    Registered Users Posts: 353 ✭✭Rossi7


    I'd of thought that too, but I've read because there's a lesser gap this year because of the Pope some folk changed to other half's further out so there's room for recovery


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    #2656
    OOnegative
    Registered Users Posts: 4,834 ✭✭✭OOnegative


    Rossi7 wrote: »
    I'd of thought that too, but I've read because there's a lesser gap this year because of the Pope some folk changed to other half's further out so there's room for recovery

    It’s 5 weeks and 1 day from DCM, that is plenty of time to race & recover from a half without impacting on training in my opinion. It’s up to the runner themselves how they treat it but if it was me i’d be racing.


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    #2657
    Rossi7
    Registered Users Posts: 353 ✭✭Rossi7


    Cheers OOnegative, I'll await the Three Wise People advice just encase I get you in trouble ;)


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    #2658
    skyblue46
    Registered Users Posts: 4,807 ✭✭✭skyblue46


    Rossi7 wrote: »
    Cheers OOnegative, I'll await the Three Wise People advice just encase I get you in trouble ;)

    What he said! :D You'll never go far wrong taking OONegative's advice.


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    #2659
    Rossi7
    Registered Users Posts: 353 ✭✭Rossi7


    All systems go O Captain, my captain :D


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    #2660
    ariana`
    Registered Users Posts: 4,291 ✭✭✭ariana`


    Rossi, sound advice there from OOnegative. The only thing i'll add is that if you've already raced a half in the last couple of weeks - Rathoath or other - then there's no need to race again so soon and i'd probably advise against it in fact just for recovery/training purposes. But it's in the plan so by all means prepare to give it welly ;)


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    #2661
    incentsitive
    Registered Users Posts: 436 ✭✭incentsitive


    I'm still trying to figure out my hydration strategy.
    I found it grand last weekend when I had a nice icy cold blackcurrant mi wadi flavoured water every few miles. But I won't have that on the day.
    Does anybody know will the standard High5 tablets fit into the top of the DCM bottles?


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    #2662
    ewc78
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 480 ✭✭ewc78


    incentsitive wrote: »
    I'm still trying to figure out my hydration strategy.
    I found it grand last weekend when I had a nice icy cold blackcurrant mi wadi flavoured water every few miles. But I won't have that on the day.
    Does anybody know will the standard High5 tablets fit into the top of the DCM bottles?

    Break them in half, wrap them in cling film then use one half to put into the bottle when needed.DCM use small 330ml bottles of water.


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    #2663
    ariana`
    Registered Users Posts: 4,291 ✭✭✭ariana`


    incentsitive wrote: »
    I'm still trying to figure out my hydration strategy.
    I found it grand last weekend when I had a nice icy cold blackcurrant mi wadi flavoured water every few miles. But I won't have that on the day.
    Does anybody know will the standard High5 tablets fit into the top of the DCM bottles?

    You can halve those tablets quite easily if you want to be sure of them fitting. A half is probably enough in a small bottle anyhow. I just drank water last year but i think in hindsight a high 5 in one or two bottles along the way might have been a good idea. I was very very dehydrated the day after the marathon, i felt extremely hungover all that day (and i wasn't drinking alcohol after the race).


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    #2664
    cullenswood
    Registered Users Posts: 2,233 ✭✭✭cullenswood


    The DCM bottles are 250mls are they not. So you wouldn't be putting a full tablet in anyway. If you were using that strategy I'd carry a few tablets split into maybe three. That size would definitely fit in a bottle.


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    #2665
    eyrie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,338 ✭✭✭eyrie


    I've never used any of the high 5 or any kind of electrolyte type things (high 5 tablets are electrolytes, right? :confused:). Do we really need them? If so I guess I should start trying them out...
    I think I've been going for blissful ignorance and ignoring all this stuff!


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    #2666
    Kellygirl
    Registered Users Posts: 3,020 ✭✭✭Kellygirl


    eyrie wrote: »
    I've never used any of the high 5 or any kind of electrolyte type things (high 5 tablets are electrolytes, right? :confused:). Do we really need them? If so I guess I should start trying them out...
    I think I've been going for blissful ignorance and ignoring all this stuff!

    It’s certainly no harm to use them. My gp actually advised dioralyte twice daily before long runs and long races. I use zero tabs instead. They have never caused me any issues but you could try them after a run the first time to make sure.


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    #2667
    ewc78
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 480 ✭✭ewc78


    cullenswood wrote: »
    The DCM bottles are 250mls are they not. So you wouldn't be putting a full tablet in anyway. If you were using that strategy I'd carry a few tablets split into maybe three. That size would definitely fit in a bottle.

    Yeah maybe 250. Small anyway be it 330 or 250.


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    #2668
    Kellygirl
    Registered Users Posts: 3,020 ✭✭✭Kellygirl


    I’ve posted it before but a great way to carry those tablets is in those tiny zero zip lock bags that come attached to new clothes with buttons in them. I always half the tablets for race day and store them in my belt in those bags individually then.


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    #2669
    juke
    Registered Users Posts: 1,673 ✭✭✭juke


    Kellygirl wrote: »
    I’ve posted it before but a great way to carry those tablets is in those tiny zero zip lock bags that come attached to new clothes with buttons in them. I always half the tablets for race day and store them in my belt in those bags individually then.

    It took a while for the penny to drop. You've just told me to go shopping, right :p


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    #2670
    Kellygirl
    Registered Users Posts: 3,020 ✭✭✭Kellygirl


    juke wrote: »
    It took a while for the penny to drop. You've just told me to go shopping, right :p

    Ah I’m glad you figured it out. Yes shop away to your hearts content - maybe online to save the legs though. :D


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    #2671
    Applegirl26
    Registered Users Posts: 485 ✭✭Applegirl26


    Hi guys, I have a problem. I got some bloods done recently as I wasn't feeling great. My potassium level came back quite high. They were rechecked and still very high. I've been advised to miss the PMP run tomorrow, at least, and to hydrate like there's no tomorrow.

    Has anyone been through something like this before and were you able to keep training?

    Thanks guys x


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