Saracens Salarygate: Automatic Relegation?

Shefwedfan · 08-06-2020 1:52pm

Sorry behind pay wall

Mark McCall reveals Saracens plan with focus on top-flight return in 2021-22

Squad divided into four groups

The arrival at Saracens of Aled Davies, the Ospreys scrum half with 20 Wales caps, was greeted rather oddly by one newspaper. It portrayed this signing as a rare shaft of light among the gloom caused by an exodus after relegation from the Premiership, and allied blows.

Yet the news is that Saracens players are staying in droves. Mark McCall, the director of rugby, has almost completed planning for the 2021-22 season, when they hope to be back in the Premiership (after what they think will be a hard year in the Championship). The squad, it seems, will feature all their England World Cup megastars, bar George Kruis.

Had they been a Premier League football club relegated from the top league, or had they not been a club that draws such fierce loyalty and pride from their players, Saracens could easily have been looking for a whole new playing staff.

How has McCall plotted the long comeback? “What we asked ourselves first is how we wanted our squad to look in 2021-22,” he says. “At the centre of that is trying to retain our best younger players who are going to be the core of the club. We have a decent record in developing young players from the academy all the way through, that is the club we want to continue to be.”

So seven high-quality players whose development would not necessarily be improved in the second tier are joining other Premiership clubs for one season only, and have already re-signed for Saracens after that season.

“We are incredibly grateful to some of the clubs who have helped out,” McCall says. “Max Malins has been hammered by injury but everybody knows he is an incredibly exciting talent. Alex [Goode, aged 32] is an older player who deserves a chance to experience something different.”

Another club source told The Sunday Times that they expect Goode, such a brilliant player for Saracens and treasured by McCall, to go to a Japanese club for the season, while the richly talented Alex Lozowski is expected to sign for Montpellier.

Yet the challenges are still relentless. Saracens have to play the remaining nine games of what is now last season, a quarter-final round of the Heineken Champions Cup away to mighty Leinster, plus a full campaign in the Championship to try to earn promotion.

Initially, the new Championship season may yet run on the same weekends as the “old” Premiership matches. McCall and his colleagues have, in effect, divided their squad into four: the one-season wonders contingent; the illustrious England World Cup contingent — Maro Itoje, Billy and Mako Vunipola, Owen Farrell, Jamie George and Elliot Daly; a group from the normal first XV; and the young players.

How do they run the elite England group? “This is a complicated conversation,” McCall says. “Pre-Covid, the idea was for them to have a restful club year, to play a lot of Tests, the odd cup game and then the Lions. But because there has been nothing in March to May it could well be that they finish the old season, then the Europe quarter-final, so they will have some good rugby.”

There is still the possibility that at least one of the superstars will depart on a one-year deal. Itoje reportedly intended to spend his season at a French club but the RFU ruled that he would still be subject to the regulation that prevents selection for the England squad for those abroad.

McCall’s third and fourth groups are complementary. He has a strong group from the normal first XV squad for the Championship and any one-off games. Finally, McCall has earmarked about 20 players, many from the academy, who will benefit from time in the first team in the Championship.

Saracens will have positions to fill. The powerful Kruis is going to Japan and Will Skelton, the Australian, has joined La Rochelle. Ben Spencer, the scrum half, has been announced as a new Bath player. He and the prop Titi Lamositele who has joined Montpellier, are, you suspect, the only players that Saracens truly wanted to keep. They will also need to replace the leadership of the centre Brad Barritt, who is not expected to continue beyond this season.

Do Saracens feel angry? Not at all. “We made some mistakes and were punished for them,” McCall says. “We hope to be back in 2021-22 with a strong and homegrown squad.” Exodus, but in reverse.

Seven leaving for one season
Seven players, all bar one of them internationals, are leaving Saracens on one-season contracts. All have re-signed for Saracens for 2021-22: Ben Earl (to Bristol); Alex Goode (Japan); Nick Isiekwe (Northampton); Alex Lozowski (Montpellier); Max Malins (Bristol); Jack Singleton (Gloucester); Nick Tompkins (Cardiff Blues)

Shefwedfan · 08-06-2020 1:52pm

pickarooney wrote: »

They should probably loan out a good few more. Keep the top end players sharp and give the youngsters a chance to break through. Even funding part of their wages when they loan the good lads out to Japan or Major League Rugby or wherever.

If running 4 teams they wont let anyone go

Quin_Dub · 08-06-2020 1:57pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

If running 4 teams they wont let anyone go

Which begs the question on whether they will be able to meet the financial requirements to re-enter the Premiership?

Shefwedfan · 08-06-2020 2:13pm

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Which begs the question on whether they will be able to meet the financial requirements to re-enter the Premiership?

Which again suggest they have just figured out another loop hole and continue on as is

RugbyLover123 · 08-06-2020 2:20pm

I know I mentioned it in the premiership thread, but I still don’t see how they’ll be under the cap when they come back up and get those players back. I suppose they’ll be losing Barrett too but still.

They’ll essentially still be able to play an international standard 23. No other prem Club is near being able to do that. Unless their negotiating or accounting is top notch or other clubs are over paying players then I don’t see how it’s possible.

Disappointed to see so many prem clubs take players off them for a year loan. I had heard somewhere that there had apparently been an agreement between all other prem clubs that they’d not be taking any of their players on loan.

Buer · 08-06-2020 2:49pm

I may be wrong but I don't believe Kruis has gone on loan. He has gone to Japan and severed ties with Saracens. However, he is only out there on a 1 year deal and, whilst he may well join Saracens again in 12 months, that's not certain.

Whilst they will be back and still a very strong team, they're are not going to be at the same level. They'll have lost a few high quality players. My understanding is they still haven't confirmed if Itoje and Mako Vunipola are definitely staying next year. As mentioned above, Itoje was very open to leaving for the year until he had it confirmed that he couldn't play for England if he went to France.

They'll also lose guys like Barritt and Wigglesworth. Alex Goode will turn 34 in the season he returns. He'll turn 35 the season they get to play in Europe again. Sean Maitland is likely to be gone in the next 1-2 years also. Duncan Taylor is a guy who is on the wrong side of 30. There are squad players like Callum Clarke (boo, hiss) who is out of contract this summer along with others. They're going to have to rely heavily on their academy in the coming years.

Of course they'll attract new talent in also but they won't have the pull they had a year ago when they come back particularly without the promise of top level European rugby initially.

I think they'll be an excellent team and will automatically be challenging again but they're simply not going to be near unbeatable machine that they once were.

Buer · 08-06-2020 2:52pm

RugbyLover123 wrote: »

I know I mentioned it in the premiership thread, but I still don’t see how they’ll be under the cap when they come back up and get those players back. I suppose they’ll be losing Barrett too but still.

They’ll essentially still be able to play an international standard 23. No other prem Club is near being able to do that. Unless their negotiating or accounting is top notch or other clubs are over paying players then I don’t see how it’s possible.

The salary cap report is there for all to see. They were £906k over the cap last season. They're already comfortably under the cap I'd imagine with the current departures (not including loan deals).

lawrencesummers · 08-06-2020 3:10pm

Will Skelton will fit in well in France, his focus on violence over rugby is exactly what some clubs over there love.

Burkie1203 · 08-06-2020 4:45pm

https://twitter.com/samrobertsrugby/status/1270017576530251776?s=19

pickarooney · 08-06-2020 5:08pm

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Will Skelton will fit in well in France, his focus on violence over rugby is exactly what some clubs over there love.

Slightly unfair on both Skelton and French rugby.

sydthebeat · 08-06-2020 5:12pm

pickarooney wrote: »

Slightly unfair on both Skelton and French rugby.

agreed

the big criticism of skelton throughout his career (until saracens) was that he DIDNT use his substantial size to be an enforcer on the field.

the video reel of his dirty acts on the pitch makes for a very short clip.

Squidgy Black · 08-06-2020 5:23pm

Burkie1203 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/samrobertsrugby/status/1270017576530251776?s=19

Be interesting to see what the final agreement is, had heard 25% being the figure floated around as well as trying to remove the marquee players, as well as proposing to cut salaries across the board by 25%.

Shefwedfan · 08-06-2020 8:02pm

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Will Skelton will fit in well in France, his focus on violence over rugby is exactly what some clubs over there love.

Last season was one of the best locks in the HC. Just behind Itjoe and Ryan.

If he was playing in your team you would be raving about how he was laying down the law. No point crying when he is in opposition

Good signing for ROG

lawrencesummers · 09-06-2020 8:51am

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Last season was one of the best locks in the HC. Just behind Itjoe and Ryan.

If he was playing in your team you would be raving about how he was laying down the law. No point crying when he is in opposition

Good signing for ROG

Crying?
I see your posts haven’t matured an ounce.

lawrencesummers · 09-06-2020 8:53am

pickarooney wrote: »

Slightly unfair on both Skelton and French rugby.

It’s not unfair on Skelton, he uses his physical advantage and oversteps the limits plenty, and I didnt say anything about French rugby. I said some clubs. Some clubs in France have a focus on physically dominating their opponents by any means as a tactic.

Shefwedfan · 09-06-2020 9:01am

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Crying?
I see your posts haven’t matured an ounce.

Snap :P

lawrencesummers wrote: »

It’s not unfair on Skelton, he uses his physical advantage and oversteps the limits plenty, and I didnt say anything about French rugby. I said some clubs. Some clubs in France have a focus on physically dominating their opponents by any means as a tactic.

I didn't hear anyone complaining when Munster went around bullying teams for years...

Munster played the Sarries B team and couldn't beat them. Skelton had a good game but nothing to overstep the limits.

The hyperbole from some Munster fans after was laughable. Crying is best description.

lawrencesummers · 09-06-2020 9:09am

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Snap :P

I didn't hear anyone complaining when Munster went around bullying teams for years...

Munster played the Sarries B team and couldn't beat them. Skelton had a good game but nothing to overstep the limits.

The hyperbole from some Munster fans after was laughable. Crying is best description.

I was wrong.
Your posts have lessened in maturity. Who knew it was possible.

While I clearly didn’t complain about Skelton, just made an observation on his approach to the game and how it will be well suited to the approach of SOME French teams.

So let’s be clear, I made an observation about an Australian player from an English club going to a French team and you have somehow tried to bring this back to an Irish provincial tit-for-tat.

Real mature that.

thomond2006 · 09-06-2020 9:10am

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Munster played the Sarries B team and couldn't beat them. Skelton had a good game but nothing to overstep the limits.

The hyperbole from some Munster fans after was laughable. Crying is best description.

Saracens: Malins; Maitland, Lozowski, Tompkins, Daly; Farrell (c), Wigglesworth; Mako Vunipola, George, Koch, Kpoku, Kruis, Isiekwe, Earl, B Vunipola.
Replacements: Woolstencroft, Barrington, Ibuanokpe, Clark, Wray, Spencer, Manu Vunipola, Taylor.

That's not a B team.

Munster played close to the Saracens full team over there and lost. Please start dealing in facts.

lawrencesummers · 09-06-2020 9:12am

thomond2006 wrote: »

Saracens: Malins; Maitland, Lozowski, Tompkins, Daly; Farrell (c), Wigglesworth; Mako Vunipola, George, Koch, Kpoku, Kruis, Isiekwe, Earl, B Vunipola.
Replacements: Woolstencroft, Barrington, Ibuanokpe, Clark, Wray, Spencer, Manu Vunipola, Taylor.

That's not a B team.

Munster played close to the Saracens full team over there and lost. Please start dealing in facts.

That’s clearly asking to much.

Shefwedfan · 09-06-2020 9:14am

thomond2006 wrote: »

Saracens: Malins; Maitland, Lozowski, Tompkins, Daly; Farrell (c), Wigglesworth; Mako Vunipola, George, Koch, Kpoku, Kruis, Isiekwe, Earl, B Vunipola.
Replacements: Woolstencroft, Barrington, Ibuanokpe, Clark, Wray, Spencer, Manu Vunipola, Taylor.

That's not a B team.

Munster played close to the Saracens full team over there and lost. Please start dealing in facts.

The Munster home match. We are talking about Skelton who didnt play in the Sarries home game.

Is this a full strenght team?

15. Matt Gallagher
14. Rotimi Segun
13. Alex Lozowski
12. Brad Barritt (captain)
11. Alex Lewington
10. Manu Vunipola
9. Ben Spencer
1. Richard Barrington
2. Jack Singleton
3. Titi Lamositele
4. Will Skelton
5. Maro Itoje
6. Nick Isiekwe
7. Ben Earl
8. Jackson Wray

thomond2006 · 09-06-2020 9:16am

Shefwedfan wrote: »

The Munster home match. We are talking about Skelton who didnt play in the Sarries home game.

Is this a full strenght team?

15. Matt Gallagher
14. Rotimi Segun
13. Alex Lozowski
12. Brad Barritt (captain)
11. Alex Lewington
10. Manu Vunipola
9. Ben Spencer
1. Richard Barrington
2. Jack Singleton
3. Titi Lamositele
4. Will Skelton
5. Maro Itoje
6. Nick Isiekwe
7. Ben Earl
8. Jackson Wray

Munster "couldn't beat them"? Munster won 10-3.
I was assuming you were talking about the away game since Munster actually lost.

lawrencesummers · 09-06-2020 9:17am

thomond2006 wrote: »

Munster "couldn't beat them"? Munster won 10-3.

Facts prove to be a terrible inconvenience when that poster is concentrating so much on trying to start a provincial debate.

Best ignored.

bennyl10 · 09-06-2020 9:17am

Shefwedfan wrote: »

The Munster home match. We are talking about Skelton who didnt play in the Sarries home game.

Is this a full strenght team?

15. Matt Gallagher
14. Rotimi Segun
13. Alex Lozowski
12. Brad Barritt (captain)
11. Alex Lewington
10. Manu Vunipola
9. Ben Spencer
1. Richard Barrington
2. Jack Singleton
3. Titi Lamositele
4. Will Skelton
5. Maro Itoje
6. Nick Isiekwe
7. Ben Earl
8. Jackson Wray

The game that Munster won?

you have no point here

Shefwedfan · 09-06-2020 9:18am

lawrencesummers wrote: »

I was wrong.
Your posts have lessened in maturity. Who knew it was possible.

While I clearly didn’t complain about Skelton, just made an observation on his approach to the game and how it will be well suited to the approach of SOME French teams.

So let’s be clear, I made an observation about an Australian player from an English club going to a French team and you have somehow tried to bring this back to an Irish provincial tit-for-tat.

Real mature that.

Back tracking so quickly. I had expected you would at least defend your own posts. Anyway as I said, good signing for ROG

Shefwedfan · 09-06-2020 9:19am

bennyl10 wrote: »

The game that Munster won?

you have no point here

In fact they did, i apologise. With all the complaining after the match I forgot they just had dropped 2 points to Sarries B team.

Please accept my apologies

Yeah_Right · 09-06-2020 1:49pm

Can I just ask what Skelton has done to make people think he's a dirty player? I always considered him a lazy player (less so since he joined Sarries) but never dirty.

troyzer · 09-06-2020 1:51pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Can I just ask what Skelton has done to make people think he's a dirty player? I always considered him a lazy player (less so since he joined Sarries) but never dirty.

He constantly hits late and always seems to find a way of leading into carries and tackles with his knees and elbows.

Shefwedfan · 09-06-2020 1:52pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Can I just ask what Skelton has done to make people think he's a dirty player? I always considered him a lazy player (less so since he joined Sarries) but never dirty.

Nothing

irishbucsfan · 09-06-2020 1:57pm

troyzer wrote: »

He constantly hits late and always seems to find a way of leading into carries and tackles with his knees and elbows.

He can’t swim. He demands to be sat at the captains table. He nudges people while they’re shooting. He attracts enemy radar. He gets up late. He mucks about. Imagine the fear of having Will Skelton in your team hotel; when you retire at night you think “god, will I wake up and find everybody dead?”

rayd3 · 09-06-2020 2:25pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

In fact they did, i apologise. With all the complaining after the match I forgot they just had dropped 2 points to Sarries B team.

Mature response to being shown to be factually wrong again.

sydthebeat · 09-06-2020 2:32pm

troyzer wrote: »

He constantly hits late and always seems to find a way of leading into carries and tackles with his knees and elbows.

nah... not for me at all.. this was tried to be aimed at him after the munster games and the arguments were weak at best.

if he does it consistently, show me 6 clips... 3 with the knees and 3 with the elbows.

shouldn't be too hard if he always does it.

hes always been a bit of an awkward lump whose enthusism has been mediocre at best, until he signed for saracens

thomond2006 · 24-06-2020 1:05pm

Saracens have signed a few players from Championship clubs in recent days. It was mentioned by James Connolly on OTB that many Championship clubs are moving to a semi-pro status due to RFU cutbacks and Covid. I imagine Saracens can have the pick of Championship players with other clubs desperate to cut squads.

bilston · 24-06-2020 1:36pm

If you were a Championship club this coming season and you weren't called Saracens would you even waste your time recruiting? They might as well just tread water for a season and see what the financial situation is in 12 months time.

Shefwedfan · 24-06-2020 1:58pm

bilston wrote: »

If you were a Championship club this coming season and you weren't called Saracens would you even waste your time recruiting? They might as well just tread water for a season and see what the financial situation is in 12 months time.

Exactly, no chance of getting promotion so save money this season and then make a go the following

pickarooney · 24-06-2020 3:01pm

bilston wrote: »

If you were a Championship club this coming season and you weren't called Saracens would you even waste your time recruiting? They might as well just tread water for a season and see what the financial situation is in 12 months time.

Yes. There's every advantage to building a squad year on year. Most of the Championship sides would never normally get a chance to test themselves against a team of Saracens' calibre so I expect them all to give it their absolute best for those matches.

ec18 · 24-06-2020 3:24pm

aren't Saracens down for a minimum of two years? I thought part of promotion in the premiership was that you had to show two years of audited financials?

Shefwedfan · 24-06-2020 8:20pm

ec18 wrote: »

aren't Saracens down for a minimum of two years? I thought part of promotion in the premiership was that you had to show two years of audited financials?

No, they will be back up, they will show this years and next years....

This years they will have fiddled the f**knout of them

Podge_irl · 24-06-2020 11:01pm

ec18 wrote: »

aren't Saracens down for a minimum of two years? I thought part of promotion in the premiership was that you had to show two years of audited financials?

No, it is a commonly repeated misinterpretation. They need to show evidence they were compliant for one year, and a plan to be compliant for the year after they are promoted.

Saracens Salarygate: Automatic Relegation?

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