The Sub 4 Support Thread

I have never run with a pace group for all of a race.

Do they normally aim to finish at the exact time i.e. 4h on the button or do they try to give a buffer for the people following behind i.e. 3h58m (or quicker)?

Murph_D wrote: »

I think if you can whizz past a pace group in the last miles for a strong finish, you probably should have gone with a faster pace group in the first place. My experience of running with pace groups - at any distance - is that I've always been hanging on for dear life in the last third of the race!

Hmm yeah good point! I went with a very conservative pace group due to an injury so i guess this made the difference as i got braver with picking the pace near the end and my last mile was my fastest mile of the race. But i still think in theory the approach should work but without letting them get as far away as i did last year but maybe i'm wrong - i'm still learning. My issue with staying with them all the way is the crowds, especially a milestone time like 4 hr which I'm sure is very very popular.

you and me both,calf strain after speed session last wednesday,rested until today went out for a very easy 7km run and pulled up after 6.5kms physio thursday,

ewc78 wrote: »

I know the good weather is great and everything but I went for a run in the wind and rain tonight and I haven't enjoyed a run as much in a long time! There was some evenings there lately it was almost impossible to run well with the heat.
Was still nice and warm tonight though.

Ha ha - I was the exact same this morning. My favorite run in ages - in the rain and quite cool compare to what it has been!

ewc78 wrote: »

Oh yeah it was much cooler tonight but far from cold.

Just watching the forecast with weather warnings etc. This is what we know - we’ll all enjoy our runs the next few days

I'm pretty sure a few * novices this year have it within them to go sub 4, is not going sub 4 all to do with having the right marathon plan

Rossi7 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure a few * novices this year have it within them to go sub 4, is not going sub 4 all to do with having the right marathon plan

I absolutely expect some of this year's novices to run sub 4 as they have in previous years and you'll quite likely be one of them

But I don't necessarily think the marathon plan makes a massive difference certainly not to novice runners (and that includes fast novice runners), most plans will follow a similar enough structure - 2-3 easy runs, 1 session (run with stuff added like marathon pace miles) and a long run.

The overall mileage and the intensity of the training will impact of course the outcome but these also need to be balanced with injury risk. Joe Bloggs down the road may have run sub 4 off 55 miles a week but if you've been running 20 mpw for the past 3 months then the jump to 55 mpw is a big injury risk.

In an ideal world if we all had coaches the overall mileage and intensity would be planned around the runner's base coming into marathon training and how much they can handle without risking injury/burn out (other considerations here such as previous injury history and age etc).

The advantage of having more miles behind you from previous marathon cycles is you can start to increase the miles and/or the intensity of the training (more MP miles, fast finish long runs etc) and that's where additional gains can be made. Or that's the hope for some of us here at least

Rossi7 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure a few * novices this year have it within them to go sub 4, is not going sub 4 all to do with having the right marathon plan

I’m pretty sure they will too. But they will be the exceptions to the rule, judging by previous years. Don’t get me wrong - I failed myself on my debut (4:02). I don’t mean to disrespect novice marathon runners. What I am trying to get at is that the second or third time around your body knows what to expect and as long as you have trained properly - with ANY plan that hits the marathon basics, executed properly with the different types of run done at the right pace - you should be able for it, if you are reasonably fit and not too much overweight. Weather is a factor but not a big one if you have conditioned yourself properly (including getting your body ready by subjecting it to reasonably high mileage over time).

Sub-4 is a great target and a terrific milestone to achieve - especially for women, for whom it’s obviously a much greater achievement.

theyoungchap wrote: »

At what pace do people feel I should be doing my LSR for a 4-hour marathon? 9 minutes?

About 10 minute miles.

9 minutes is marathon pace

Murph_D wrote: »

No, because you’ll have trained properly by building endurance through building up long runs at a relatively slow pace. Runners who do their long runs at marathon pace invariably blow up on the day and have a very difficult second half. By all means do some of your running at marathon pace, even done if the long run miles, but the majority must be slower. The novice thread would be a good place for you to pick up this kind is training advice, if you’re not in there already.

I have to admit I’m a bit confused or tied up in knots over the running your LSR slow. Last year when I didn’t know any better I ran all my long runs fairly close to race pace (about 30 seconds per kilometer slower maybe) and there were a few mp miles in there more by accident than anything else. I then proceeded to breeze round DCM in 4:20. This year for Cork I followed what I’d read over and over again about slowing down and did my speed work twice a week but not in my long run. I couldn’t sustain the pace on the day after mile 16 and had to majorly slow down. I blamed the heat but prob not just that.

There was a great discussion on my log about it last week and the jist of it was to include pace miles in my long run so I’m going to do that for DCM and build up the miles over the weeks.

But I’m kind of confused really as all I keep hearing is slow down in the pace runs and somehow missed the fact that I should be including pace miles.

Does everybody include pace miles?

30 seconds a km is 48 seconds a mile, not far off.

The plans for absolute novices often don't have pace miles, but anything more advanced will.

ewc78 wrote: »

I'm away first week of July and was actually thinking of using it as a rest week before I get stuck into training. Have been consistently doing 25-30 miles a week so don't think a week off will do me much harm. Will start at week 2 of meno plan.

Yeah the week of rest might even do you good, you'll come back feeling really refreshed:D I had to take 4 weeks off all exercise back in March/April due to injury, was barely even walking for some of those weeks, so I couldn't justify in my head taking any more weeks off:o

Murph_D wrote: »

I wouldn’t worry too much about Cork. A second marathon just seven months after your first can often end in tears due to lack of prolonged conditioning anyway. Too many variables to blame it solely on your long run pace, which was probably OK from what you describe.

The simple fact is that (relatively) slow miles are very important for building the muscular and other adaptations that allow you to run long at a sustained pace. That’s the basic adaptation that you can then build on with speed work, tempo runs, MP pace runs, etc. As you build experience, running at MP becomes a more important part of the mix (although some coaches/plans emphasize this more than others).

Any good marathon training book will give you the scientific principles behind the different kinds of run. It’s useful to understand (although not entirely necessary- many runners do fine by just following instructions well!)

Thanks Murph_D. I definitely think it will be an important part of this training cycle for me anyway.

theyoungchap wrote: »

Thanks for all the advice above. I can fairly comfortably run say 6 miles at 8 minutes a mile at present. Am I being not ambitious enough for my target marathon time?

what are your race times?

theyoungchap wrote: »

Haven't done any racing in particular. I am doing a 10 mile race on Sunday (although that is a distance I haven't done for a while), I will update after that. Just thinking that to do my LSR at 10 minutes a mile will seem very slow........but I am all ears re advice on this one.

Oh - thought you posted elsewhere that you've run a marathon before? How did it go? What kind of training did you do?

Pomplamousse wrote: »

Tomorrow is day 1 of the meno plan for me (starting 2 weeks early as I'll be away for 2 weeks in July and will only do easy runs then). Excited and scared:D:o

ewc78 wrote: »

I'm away first week of July and was actually thinking of using it as a rest week before I get stuck into training. Have been consistently doing 25-30 miles a week so don't think a week off will do me much harm. Will start at week 2 of meno plan.

Kellygirl wrote: »

I’m thinking the same. I’m away the week after next and not sure if I’ll squeeze any runs in. My husband needs a break from my running I think. I’lldo What I can this week and get straight down to it when I get home.

I'm away for 9 days in July and it'll be pure rest. I think i need it and i really think my OH and the kids need it. The oldest kid is pretty good but the younger pair are a right handful in the nicest possible way, they are just very energetic and lacking in common sense which is probably pretty normal at 5 and just turned 3. I don't think it'd be fair to leave him with all 3 in busy campsite in a foreign country unless they're asleep and if there asleep i think i'd rather be sipping a glass on vino on the veranda

Pomplamousse wrote: »

Yeah the week of rest might even do you good, you'll come back feeling really refreshed I had to take 4 weeks off all exercise back in March/April due to injury, was barely even walking for some of those weeks, so I couldn't justify in my head taking any more weeks off:o

This is what i'm hoping for.

Murph_D wrote: »

The simple fact is that (relatively) slow miles are very important for building the muscular and other adaptations that allow you to run long at a sustained pace. That’s the basic adaptation that you can then build on with speed work, tempo runs, MP pace runs, etc. As you build experience, running at MP becomes a more important part of the mix (although some coaches/plans emphasize this more than others).

Murph_D thanks for all your input. Can i ask a question - i am planning to throw a couple of blocks of MP miles into some of my LSRs, so for example if i was to put 2 x 3m @ MP into a 12 mile run. How would i be best to structure this - 3m Easy, 3m MP, 3 Easy, 3m MP seems the obvious or would it better to have the blocks of MP closer together and closer to the end of the long run such as 4m Easy, 3m MP, 1m Easy, 3m MP, 1m Easy? I hope the question i'm asking makes sense

Murph_D wrote: »

What plan are you using?

First thing I would say to someone relatively new to marathon running would be to follow the plan. If the long runs on the plan are short on MP miles, maybe switch to a plan with more MP? Or if it's the Boards plan, ask the coach for some ideas (I'm not really familiar with the plan, and you don't want to compromise other aspects).

That said, I'd say if you're set on injecting some spice into the LR, start slowly. Progression LR, maybe starting at 90 secs/mile sower than MP and building up to 30 secs slower, or even MP itself, depending on how it goes.

For most of us, a session like you mention above should always start and end with easy miles, so I'd go 2E/3M/2E/3M/2E for a 12 miler. If it's a longer run I'd favour putting the MP section(s) towards the end, to better simulate the later stages of a race where MP is more of a struggle.

The million dollar question with no answer yet :cool: It seems quite difficult to find something that ticks all my boxes! Meno is too aggressive for me i think (22milers :eek:). Boards - hasn't enough MP or extra spice as you called it. Grads i really like the look of but some changes at home mean i'm not as sure i can commit to 6 days running for the next 4 months.

Thanks

skyblue46 wrote: »

I think it depends on the person. A 3:40 23 miler last year was the run that left me in no doubt I was ready for sub 4.

S if i did a 3:40 23 miler i'd be afraid that that was my race left out there on a training run. That's phenomenal well done.