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The Sub 4 Support Thread

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,989 ✭✭✭Kellygirl


    Mr. Guappa wrote: »
    Delighted to find this thread. I've signed up for DCM this year, my first marathon. 4:00 is the arbitrary target at this stage, but I'll adjust if it's looking unrealistic closer to the date.

    As a guide, I ran the Dungarvan 10 mile in 1:23 back in Feb, and same time last week on a very hilly Cobh 10 mile course. Running a HM in July, and from there all eyes on Dublin.

    Great times for both those 10 milers - especially hilly Cobh.

    Are you joining the DCM Novices thread? It’s a sticky at the top of this forum.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,504 ✭✭✭Mr. Guappa


    Kellygirl wrote: »
    Great times for both those 10 milers - especially hilly Cobh.

    Are you joining the DCM Novices thread? It’s a sticky at the top of this forum.

    Yeah cheers, I just found that thread too. I'll catch up on it and join in too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,338 ✭✭✭eyrie


    Murph_D wrote: »
    For what it’s worth, I did 4:02 in first marathon (2012) using one of the Higdon Novice plans. Had an 86-min 10 mile in the run-up but sub-4 was always going to be a stretch with the low mileage I was on - only around 25 miles a week. The plan had no speed or tempo, just the odd few miles at MP. A classic ‘get you around’ plan.

    The following year, the meno plan was introduced as he was mentoring the 2012 graduates. I ran 3:47 in 2013 off that - a good mixture of speed, tempo, long, easy. And lots of advice about how to run them. I found it excellent, doing it at about 35-40 miles per week. Used it twice more, in fact, getting down to 3:29 by Cork 2015.

    The key was not the day-to-day details of the plan itself, but rather its overall scope and structure: increased mileage, challenging sessions, long runs with added challenges (in and around MP, variable pace, etc). This all helps with learning to push yourself a little harder, run with discomfort, confidence - all those things you need to break through arbitrary barriers such as sub-4, sub-3:45, sub-3:30 etc. Some of it is mental, but the majority is just doing the work diligently, running at the right paces so your body makes the adaptations you need.

    My old log at https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057009350 documents that first sub-4 training and marathon, if it’s of any interest to anyone.

    Best of luck to anyone attempting. I’ve no doubt that almost anyone can do it with a bit of discipline, and of course you have to make the start line - sometimes the hardest challenge of all, especially earlier in your running career.

    This is really interesting and helpful, thanks. I will be reading through your old log for info! I'm wondering though, what your thoughts would be on the Meno plan for a first-time marathoner? I'm aware that it was (I think?) created for the grads not for first timers. I've never run a marathon but have been running consistently for a year or so, and most of the beginner plans I've seen would be a step back from where I am now, at least initially. So I'm looking at others, but I'm afraid of doing anything that would be overly demanding. The meno plan looks flexible so I'm intrigued, but still wondering if it's too much of a stretch for a first attempt.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,205 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    eyrie wrote: »
    This is really interesting and helpful, thanks. I will be reading through your old log for info! I'm wondering though, what your thoughts would be on the Meno plan for a first-time marathoner? I'm aware that it was (I think?) created for the grads not for first timers. I've never run a marathon but have been running consistently for a year or so, and most of the beginner plans I've seen would be a step back from where I am now, at least initially. So I'm looking at others, but I'm afraid of doing anything that would be overly demanding. The meno plan looks flexible so I'm intrigued, but still wondering if it's too much of a stretch for a first attempt.

    I think it would be OK as long as you have the base mileage recommended (can’t remember but I think it was at least 30 miles per week?) You can always dial it back - as I said above I targeted 90% of the stated weekly mileage first time out as I didn’t have a great base going in.

    But having said that, first time out there’s a lot to be said for a group approach and if you are not in a club group preparing for Dublin, the novice plan here (the ‘boards’ plan) should have plenty of structure And you would have the advantage of sharing the experience with a big group of people which can be very motivating. Just choose a challenging target, based on your best potential time predicted by races you’ve done.

    But if you’re going it alone, I’d say yes, you could use it, it’s not complicated and the sessions are all manageable (mostly - we all fail a few sessions during a cycle). Assuming you are already acquainted with speedwork, tempos, etc. (although having said that, I wasn’t, so maybe not essential!)

    Edit - boards plan has less speed/tempo than I realised, apologies - but possibly better for debut marathon depending on experience. I’d say if you’re not doing speed/tempo workouts already, perhaps best to stick to an endurance plan like ‘boards’ for debut?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,338 ✭✭✭eyrie


    Murph_D wrote: »
    I think it would be OK as long as you have the base mileage recommended (can’t remember but I think it was at least 30 miles per week?) You can always dial it back - as I said above I targeted 90% of the stated weekly mileage first time out as I didn’t have a great base going in.

    But having said that, first time out there’s a lot to be said for a group approach and if you are not in a club group preparing for Dublin, the novice plan here (the ‘boards’ plan) should have plenty of structure And you would have the advantage of sharing the experience with a big group of people which can be very motivating. Just choose a challenging target, based on your best potential time predicted by races you’ve done.

    But if you’re going it alone, I’d say yes, you could use it, it’s not complicated and the sessions are all manageable (mostly - we all fail a few sessions during a cycle). Assuming you are already acquainted with speedwork, tempos, etc. (although having said that, I wasn’t, so maybe not essential!)

    Edit - boards plan has less speed/tempo than I realised, apologies - but possibly better for debut marathon depending on experience. I’d say if you’re not doing speed/tempo workouts already, perhaps best to stick to an endurance plan like ‘boards’ for debut?


    Thanks, plenty of food for thought there. I have been doing speed and tempo workouts for a while already (following a few different plans in turn, currently P&L 10k plan from Faster Road Racing), so I'm reluctant to stop all of that and cut the mileage back. That said I know marathon training will ultimately mean a huge ramp up in other ways (long run distance primarily) so I don't want to bite off more than I can chew and risk injury. I hope to participate in the novices thread whatever plan I end up following!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,979 ✭✭✭seanin4711


    kudos to the OP.
    started out in Dublin 2010 got around 1st one.
    then i thought i could better as we all do.
    more recently have been doing cycling for last number of years but always had a sub 4hr hanging over me like an itch i cant scratch.

    I have done thus far
    • Connemara - 2012 4:33
    • Clare burren 2012 - 5:26 not ready for this one!
    • Clonakility - 2015 4:34
    • Eddie murphy - 2015 5:15 injured @16miles but finished
    • Dublin -2010 -4:37 & 2016 - 4:26
    • Berlin PB 2015 - 4:08 trained a fair bit
    • Craughwell 2015 4:30 - MCI - easy running LSR training run pre dublin

    gaps, in hindsight, seem to be

    1. Non specific training routine
    2. Low intensity/high volume coupled with interval & speed mix to approximately 70%/30% - to keep weight down/build endurance NOT DOING THIS PREVIOUSLY
    3. Not tapering correctly prior to marathons(restless soul).
    4. Not enough recovery/rest between each session
    5. Focusing on on running at pace for the whole marathon but not training that way.(neg splits etc)
    6. Making training too hard(trying to incorporate too many things into the training session- speed hills distance.
    7. Not enough easy LSR's - see above & should have built the distance steadily- get the body used to running for circa 4hours or less!;)


    pattern seems to be for me is that i go well up until mile 19-20 then mind games and over training(not tapering properly).

    This time round i am being proactive and since getting a lottery entry into Berlin this September,i have got VO2 and blood lactate done to get specific on my HR zones.

    Zone 1- 134-145 recovery
    zone 2 142-152 Easy
    zone 3 154-158 steady 1 threshold
    zone 4 156-162 steady 2 sub max
    zone 5 >165 - interval speed work

    with this info i was set out a plan which breaks out the training into 3 weeks on (5 sessions) and one week off (3 sessions)

    Easy are 60/90/120min runs at easy/recovery conversation pace- increase over 14-16 week training block
    Steady are 5mins easy/10mins moderate blocks x 3
    interval are 1km hard/1km easy x 3

    week 1
    3 easy- 2 steady- 0 interval

    week 2
    3 easy -1 steady -1 interval

    week 3
    2 easy 2 steady 1 interval

    week 4 recovery week(taper)
    2 easy 1 steady


    so thats the plan!

    oh also MAY do Dublin after Berlin.:eek::eek::eek:

    so now i feel that i can easily do 16km-21km @>140bpm and not be wrecked.
    and train again the following day.
    I was going to 80-90% of max HR straight away and as a result didnt have much scope to reduce it.

    Lesson learned -
    • go long - go steady
    • Low intensity -high volume


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    Seanin, did you get the testing and plan in TCD? That looks familiar, and I have to say, that schedule is pretty tough, I managed something like it for a few months before breaking down.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,979 ✭✭✭seanin4711


    RayCun wrote: »
    Seanin, did you get the testing and plan in TCD? That looks familiar, and I have to say, that schedule is pretty tough, I managed something like it for a few months before breaking down.

    I will keep it going for as long as i can.
    follow up NCT in July.

    Initially I was asked how many times do i train a week - i answered 3,realistically 2.
    for any marathon minimum i imagine would be min 4 max 6 sessions per week
    then the intensity would depend on ones own goals.(specific/relative)
    my plan was designed around a sub 4hr specific to my engine(heartrate).

    main takeaways for me were
    run consistently every week - 5 sessions 4 easy/moderate & 1 LSR
    have a specific goal in each session - easy/hills/speed/fartlek/interval etc
    be constantly building the endurance on LSR and really make them LSR's but rest up between hard efforts - Very important .

    another 10km this eve with club on grass (great for the legs btw)


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,205 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    eyrie wrote: »
    Thanks, plenty of food for thought there. I have been doing speed and tempo workouts for a while already (following a few different plans in turn, currently P&L 10k plan from Faster Road Racing), so I'm reluctant to stop all of that and cut the mileage back. That said I know marathon training will ultimately mean a huge ramp up in other ways (long run distance primarily) so I don't want to bite off more than I can chew and risk injury. I hope to participate in the novices thread whatever plan I end up following!

    Ah - if you're used to P&L you'll be fine with the meno plan, or even P&D, which is very similar to P&L, naturally. The meno plan is more flexible which can be very attractive.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,338 ✭✭✭eyrie


    Murph_D wrote: »
    Ah - if you're used to P&L you'll be fine with the meno plan, or even P&D, which is very similar to P&L, naturally. The meno plan is more flexible which can be very attractive.

    Terrific, thanks! I'm not entirely sure I'll be 'fine' with any marathon plan, but here's hoping ;)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,772 ✭✭✭skyblue46


    eyrie wrote: »
    Terrific, thanks! I'm not entirely sure I'll be 'fine' with any marathon plan, but here's hoping ;)

    Now that I've seen your training......no bother to you! ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,241 ✭✭✭ariana`


    eyrie wrote: »
    Terrific, thanks! I'm not entirely sure I'll be 'fine' with any marathon plan, but here's hoping ;)

    Oh i think you will be more than fine. You've an amazing base built for a novice and you have a proven track record in structured training as well. You're the ideal candidate ;)

    When does the meno plan start? Is that the one you are leaning towards now? It'll be exciting when we all start our various training plans and getting into the nitty gritty of it :eek:


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,338 ✭✭✭eyrie


    skyblue46 wrote: »
    Now that I've seen your training......no bother to you! ;)
    ariana` wrote: »
    Oh i think you will be more than fine. You've an amazing base built for a novice and you have a proven track record in structured training as well. You're the ideal candidate ;)

    Ha, thanks you two! It still feels like an impossible task to me, but I like the idea of it anyway so we'll start with that and see what happens! :pac:
    ariana` wrote: »
    When does the meno plan start? Is that the one you are leaning towards now? It'll be exciting when we all start our various training plans and getting into the nitty gritty of it :eek:

    Emmm... yes, it's what I'm currently leaning towards, but that could change the second I look at another one! :o I do like how flexible it seems though, and I could opt for the lower end of things if it seems like too much, so that's appealing. It's 17 weeks apparently so I guess it would start a week after the Boards plan? I'd probably start at the same time though just for the craic of starting with everyone else, plus no harm to have a buffer week for holidays/life getting in the way. I actually really like the look of the grads intermediate plan that you're going to be using, but it specifically says it's not for first-timers so that rules it out for me!


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,772 ✭✭✭skyblue46


    eyrie wrote: »
    Ha, thanks you two! It still feels like an impossible task to me, but I like the idea of it anyway so we'll start with that and see what happens! :pac:



    Emmm... yes, it's what I'm currently leaning towards, but that could change the second I look at another one! :o I do like how flexible it seems though, and I could opt for the lower end of things if it seems like too much, so that's appealing. It's 17 weeks apparently so I guess it would start a week after the Boards plan? I'd probably start at the same time though just for the craic of starting with everyone else, plus no harm to have a buffer week for holidays/life getting in the way. I actually really like the look of the grads intermediate plan that you're going to be using, but it specifically says it's not for first-timers so that rules it out for me!

    I wouldn't rule it out. You are not a typical novice. This time last year I had never done an interval, a hill sprint, a tempo or a progression run. It would have been beyond me to do the grads inter plan. You however have experience of most, if not all, types of training runs and a good base. If you like the look of it then try it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 221 ✭✭Safiri


    eyrie wrote: »
    Ha, thanks you two! It still feels like an impossible task to me, but I like the idea of it anyway so we'll start with that and see what happens! :pac:



    Emmm... yes, it's what I'm currently leaning towards, but that could change the second I look at another one! :o I do like how flexible it seems though, and I could opt for the lower end of things if it seems like too much, so that's appealing. It's 17 weeks apparently so I guess it would start a week after the Boards plan? I'd probably start at the same time though just for the craic of starting with everyone else, plus no harm to have a buffer week for holidays/life getting in the way. I actually really like the look of the grads intermediate plan that you're going to be using, but it specifically says it's not for first-timers so that rules it out for me!

    I think the Grads intermediate would suit you eyrie and is probably a better fit than the Meno plan which is probably a bit aggressive in it's structure and workouts for most here. I'll probably get crucified for saying that as it has got a lot of people on this forum success in the past but just looking at it from what I think would suit you and where you are right now, I think the grads plan would be better and would nudge you away from the Meno plan this time around.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 480 ✭✭ewc78


    Just signed up for Dublin Marathon. Saw a facebook post saying only 6000 places.
    Seriously though I know a lot of people missed out last year for leaving it too late to enter.
    Journey to sub 4 starts now I suppose!


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,205 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    Safiri wrote: »
    I think the Grads intermediate would suit you eyrie and is probably a better fit than the Meno plan which is probably a bit aggressive in it's structure and workouts for most here. I'll probably get crucified for saying that as it has got a lot of people on this forum success in the past but just looking at it from what I think would suit you and where you are right now, I think the grads plan would be better and would nudge you away from the Meno plan this time around.

    Ah here, there will be no crucifixions around here. This is a sub-4 thread! ;)

    I am not familiar with this grads intermediate school plan, but remember the meno plan was a grads plan too in its day, put together by someone with plenty of experience of advising novices and recent novices. If it’s more aggressive than other plans perhaps that’s a good thing for some runners, provided they’re up for it. The Faster Road Running plans are certainly aggressive too. Horses for courses.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 221 ✭✭Safiri


    Murph_D wrote: »
    Ah here, there will be no crucifixions around here. This is a sub-4 thread! ;)

    I am not familiar with this grads intermediate school plan, but remember the meno plan was a grads plan too in its day, put together by someone with plenty of experience of advising novices and recent novices. If it’s more aggressive than other plans perhaps that’s a good thing for some runners, provided they’re up for it. The Faster Road Running plans are certainly aggressive too. Horses for courses.

    I'm not taking a shot at the plan by any means. It just my opinion based following eyries training since she started her log and I'd have concerns about the mileage and intensity progression of the Meno plan from where she is. There's a huge amount of MP miles in the Meno Plan such as mid-week medium long runs up to 14m @MP and 20 and 22m long runs with big workouts built in. I don't see it as a linear progression for eyrie right now as I would feel the jump in both mileage and intensity is too large. I also don't see the plan as 4 hour approriate as the duration of the workouts would exceed the stimulus required for a good workout. The distances of the workouts don't match up well with sub-4 ability levels; they would be far in excess of that. I would say the same of P+D 55 plan.

    The grads plan is much more ability friendly as time dictates the duration of workouts and how much you run and would have a better progression for eyrie right now. It ties in nicely with how much running eyrie does right now and would still be a nice step up but not complete overload like the Meno plan would be imo. It's got a nice mix of tempos, steady states and cumulative fatigue built in and I think it would be a much better fit in this sceanario.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,205 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    Where is this grads plan anyway, for future reference? ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 221 ✭✭Safiri


    Murph_D wrote: »
    Where is this grads plan anyway, for future reference? ;)

    Here you go:

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LOkLQ_a9NHWe97yaRkfF6ArFmCHmtf9y1tU0LR7uMr8/htmlview#gid=950799331


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  • Registered Users Posts: 582 ✭✭✭Pomplamousse


    22 miles does seem very long so if I do follow the meno plan, I think I'll cap my LSRs at 20 miles:o

    The grads intermediate plan does look interesting too. Just wondering does anyone know is it important to do the Saturday and Sunday runs back to back? I vaguely remember reading something about that being important as you're doing the LSR on non-rested legs or something but not sure.
    If so, that plan might not suit me as I plan on resting Fridays and doing my LSRs on Saturdays.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,205 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    Safiri wrote: »

    That’s a good looking plan by a very experienced coach. I see by plugging in my own numbers that ‘tempo’ is in and around MP and there’s plenty of it towards the second half of the plan which is good. Like the long runs with progression/variation too. Nothing not to like there at all, looks like a good schedule to me.

    Having done both meno and P&D55, I’d say the latter is a good deal harder, by the way, from experience. Never felt as fit after or during a cycle as then, and still have my 10 mile PB from that period. But overkill for sure for sub-4, and personally I found it a bit... boring.

    Certainly take the point about familiarity with eyrie’s training, although from what I can see she seems to be getting on well with the Pfitzinger approach. The huge advantage of Grad plan is having the coach himself relatively accessible (although that has probably changed irrevocably). ;)


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 17,948 CMod ✭✭✭✭The Black Oil


    Lazare wrote: »
    I got some stellar course specific advice last year from a Dublin veteran, a 2:32 marathoner.

    Basically, even splits are a bad idea.

    The course is set up for a negative split, the Chapelizod hill for instance if ran too hard will end your race and you won't know about it for two hours.
    He slows to almost walking up it.

    I took all that on board and got a custom pace band.

    I ran at about 4:12 pace until about mile 6 and slowly picked it up. 4 hour pacers were 2km ahead, I didn't catch them until Milltown.

    I know for sure if I ran with them from the gun I would have ran about a 4:10 at best.

    Could you say a little more on how you pulled this off and how you judged how to pick things up? I've never felt too much of a need to be always parallel to pacers, well, not for a while and found that tends to work, but I'm untested in trying to catch up on the 4 hour lads. I'll have to read the map a little more as geography goes over my head. So much for being a Dub. :o Conscious of Murph's advice earlier on too.

    On the meno or grads intermediate, having done the latter twice I can say it'll equip anyone to be well-prepared on the day. Count on spot or two of tiredness doing it, but it's certainly one I'll go back to again, maybe for Conn 2019. I think of the tempo spins helped for Conn this year. At this stage, I'm not too fixated on sub-4 (as an outcome, we'll see, as a potential goal - yes) as I think that's up to me more so than a specific plan...it's only May.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,241 ✭✭✭ariana`


    skyblue46 wrote: »
    I wouldn't rule it out. You are not a typical novice. This time last year I had never done an interval, a hill sprint, a tempo or a progression run. It would have been beyond me to do the grads inter plan. You however have experience of most, if not all, types of training runs and a good base. If you like the look of it then try it.

    I agree with this. Eyrie, I think you're in a different planet altogether to what i was this time last year both in terms of overall mileage AND structured training (incorporating sessions etc). I can't see the Grads problem posing any issues to you. For what it's worth it also says not to attempt it without doing the base plan first and i haven't done the base plan but i feel i have a solid base so i am being arrogant enough to ignore that advice :cool:

    (And i suppose i'm being a little selfish cos i'd love to see a few of us following the same plan so we can share our experiences/tips as we go on ;))


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,241 ✭✭✭ariana`


    ewc78 wrote: »
    Just signed up for Dublin Marathon. Saw a facebook post saying only 6000 places.
    Seriously though I know a lot of people missed out last year for leaving it too late to enter.
    Journey to sub 4 starts now I suppose!

    Yay, well done on biting the bullet! And by the way i'm loving this thread so far - thanks for starting it up! It's already a great resource of information and it's brilliant to see some experienced sub-4 (and beyond) runners popping in too :) I'm not even sure i'll be targeting sub-4 in Dublin yet, it may be a case that i'll be more conservative but i hope not to be too far off and either way i think this thread will be a huge support to anyone looking to improve on previous efforts or getting closer to the 4 hour mark :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,241 ✭✭✭ariana`


    Murph_D wrote: »
    That’s a good looking plan by a very experienced coach. I see by plugging in my own numbers that ‘tempo’ is in and around MP and there’s plenty of it towards the second half of the plan which is good. Like the long runs with progression/variation too. Nothing not to like there at all, looks like a good schedule to me.

    Having done both meno and P&D55, I’d say the latter is a good deal harder, by the way, from experience. Never felt as fit after or during a cycle as then, and still have my 10 mile PB from that period. But overkill for sure for sub-4, and personally I found it a bit... boring.

    Certainly take the point about familiarity with eyrie’s training, although from what I can see she seems to be getting on well with the Pfitzinger approach. The huge advantage of Grad plan is having the coach himself relatively accessible (although that has probably changed irrevocably). ;)

    I just did some calculations out of interest after reading your post earlier on... If i ran a marathon at the very slowest end of my current Tempo pace i'd run it in 3:4x.... Now, i know i don't have the speed endurance to do that right now (i'm more thinking my Easy Tempo - Moderate pace) but it's interesting none the less to think that maybe with 2-3 more marathon cycles and a build of miles, who knows :cool:


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,254 ✭✭✭Lazare


    Could you say a little more on how you pulled this off and how you judged how to pick things up? I've never felt too much of a need to be always parallel to pacers, well, not for a while and found that tends to work, but I'm untested in trying to catch up on the 4 hour lads. I'll have to read the map a little more as geography goes over my head. So much for being a Dub. :o Conscious of Murph's advice earlier on too.

    My paceband was vital. It focused on even effort rather than even pace, I set it up for a slight negative split with a downhill limiter. I wasn't a slave to it as such, although my milestone splits were bang on or close to bang on I did feel the need to sway slightly from it here and there.

    I got it from here. It's an excellent service, unlike generic pacebands it fully takes the course into account and you can tailor it as you wish. I set it up the way I did based on the advice I got about taking the first half really easily.

    Paces were as follows..

    9:48
    9:19
    9:36
    8:59
    9:55
    9:51
    9:08
    8:40
    8:44
    8:36
    9:03
    8:49
    9:11
    9:31
    8:54
    8:43
    8:53
    8:41
    8:46
    8:44
    9:01
    9:20
    8:49
    8:50
    8:57
    9:16
    8:50
    3:58:00



    Fueling plan was a gel before the gun and every 30 mins.

    This obviously all assumes you've ran a ton of MP sessions at 4hr pace, have tapered well, have carb loaded well up until Friday and rested well on Sat.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,338 ✭✭✭eyrie


    Safiri wrote: »
    I think the Grads intermediate would suit you eyrie and is probably a better fit than the Meno plan which is probably a bit aggressive in it's structure and workouts for most here. I'll probably get crucified for saying that as it has got a lot of people on this forum success in the past but just looking at it from what I think would suit you and where you are right now, I think the grads plan would be better and would nudge you away from the Meno plan this time around.
    Murph_D wrote: »
    Having done both meno and P&D55, I’d say the latter is a good deal harder, by the way, from experience. Never felt as fit after or during a cycle as then, and still have my 10 mile PB from that period. But overkill for sure for sub-4, and personally I found it a bit... boring.

    Certainly take the point about familiarity with eyrie’s training, although from what I can see she seems to be getting on well with the Pfitzinger approach. The huge advantage of Grad plan is having the coach himself relatively accessible (although that has probably changed irrevocably). ;)

    Thanks for the inputs both, it's much appreciated. Lots to think about.

    My instinct would have steered me towards the grads plan, which looks more like a logical next step for me. I only discounted it because of the instruction about it not being suitable for a first-timer. And yet the meno plan looks tougher, so no reason why it should be more suitable. If I followed meno I would certainly be modifying a bit (I've no intention of attempting a 22 mile long run). But I'll have more of a think about the grads plan again too. A max long run that would be well less than 20 miles (for me, based on my paces) makes me nervous. I know the arguments for it, and logically it makes sense, but never having run the distance I don't have the confidence of knowing I've done it before, which 'grads' would have.

    Thanks for the advice :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,241 ✭✭✭ariana`


    eyrie wrote: »
    Thanks for the inputs both, it's much appreciated. Lots to think about.

    My instinct would have steered me towards the grads plan, which looks more like a logical next step for me. I only discounted it because of the instruction about it not being suitable for a first-timer. And yet the meno plan looks tougher, so no reason why it should be more suitable. If I followed meno I would certainly be modifying a bit (I've no intention of attempting a 22 mile long run). But I'll have more of a think about the grads plan again too. A max long run that would be well less than 20 miles (for me, based on my paces) makes me nervous. I know the arguments for it, and logically it makes sense, but never having run the distance I don't have the confidence of knowing I've done it before, which 'grads' would have.

    Thanks for the advice :)

    I understand your concerns Eyrie and ultimately you need to have confidence in the plan you choose so we can all advise you as much as we like but it's your decision.

    But i just wanted to make a point that helped me to decide. As a 'grad' i obviously have run the distance but even at that a long run of max 16m was making me a little bit nervous until someone made the subtle point that ultra runners never train anywhere near the distance - you look at Ultrawoman training for a 24 hour event and she's running phenomenal jaw dropping mileage but it's still no where near what she will do on the day/night! Cumulative fatigue is your friend in training for endurance events.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 407 ✭✭ISOP


    I've had an interesting week since the Limerick Marathon, ran a 44 minute 10k last Wednesday and took part in a very tough trail marathon on Saturday in which I improved my trail run time by 45 minutes! I felt great going up some severe hills. I currently think I am the fittest I have ever been. I am very optimistic about cracking the sub 4 now


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